BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Forsety]

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

252+ Atk Gigalith Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 226-268 (66.08 - 78.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's not that much better considering Gigalith is only Rock-type

And you're doing it wrong too. You left out Sand Force.

252+ Atk Gigalith Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Tyranitar: 85% - 101% (294 - 348 HP)

Originally Posted by Fat Cinccino

It's bad. Golem is better with STAB EQ.

I'd just stop talking if I were you because they're the exact same.

252Atk Golem Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Tyranitar : 85% - 101% (294 - 348 HP)

I'll remind the rest Gigalith has a far more powerful Rock STAB due to Sand Force and higher attack too, so as long Sand is up it has pretty much rendered Golem redundant being just as strong but with higher bulk and less weakness.

[SJCrew]

Your Golem calc is just a smidge off: 86% - 101.8% (lol)

Custap Berry is a pinch berry, which would imply that Gigalith is using Sturdy, not Sand Force. Otherwise, it won't have as many opportunities to survive attacks and suicide. I still wouldn't use it though, absolute waste of a team slot. You could just use Deo-D and get up two or more layers in that time instead of setting up SR, like a bunch of Pokemon already do, then die dealing like 30% to a Steel.

It's even worse, now that Pokemon like Thundurus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, and Keldeo are all dominating the metagame.

I think Keldeo has enough checks and counters for comfort (though it doesn't help that between him and Tornadus-T, they can basically break through anything defensive). Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T, however, are neither easy to check nor counter. Two of those to a team, good luck. Prevent SR just once and you can probably keep your momentum the whole game.

[Forsety]

Sue me for not rounding :P

I've personally see no reason to use Sturdy over Sand Force Gigalith since it's pretty hard to kill as it is and it's Rock Blast/Stone Edge is just so ridiculously powerful and I see things existing for the sole purpose of suicide setup as useless. But it's of little matter since T-tar/Terrakion basically has the monopoly on OU rock types.


On the Keldeo + Therians front I'd agree they're disturbingly domineering in this environment and checking them is a plain chore. It more often than not boils down to why are you NOT using a Therian/Keldeo to even the playing field. If you have any check/counter problems just throw in a Dugtrio and call it a day. Also if you haven't done so, try out Keldeo/Landorus-T in a hail team, you'll be surprised how much shit it manages to wreck including other weather teams.

Given though after seeing the bullshit that was Genesect let loose for so long on paper thin arguments of it's fragile and slow leaves me questioning a lot of the justifications for leaving things around these day.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

I think Keldeo has enough checks and counters for comfort (though it doesn't help that between him and Tornadus-T, they can basically break through anything defensive). Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T, however, are neither easy to check nor counter. Two of those to a team, good luck. Prevent SR just once and you can probably keep your momentum the whole game.

Keldeo, when not using Choice Scarf, is actually very easy to check, as while pretty much nothing can safely switch on him, Keldeo can be easily revenge killed afterwards. However, its Choice Scarf set is the biggest problem. Is very hard to check, especially under rain. You must pack something that resist both of its STABs AND can defeat him. Or you must pack something that is a hard counter to Scarf Keldeo, such as Jellicent, Amoongus or Celebi. I am using the former, and it's actually the only reason why I use Jellicent as of now. Terrakion with Choice Scarf is also a little hard to deal with, but at least its STABs can be more easily walled and nothing can boost Stone Edge or Close Combat like rain can boost Hydro Pump/Surf... Also, Scarf Terrakion is weak to both Bullet Punch and Mach Punch, while Keldeo is resistant to Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, while being neutral to Mach Punch.

[SJCrew]

There is nothing wrong with Choice Scarf Keldeo. It might murder more offensive teams with no walls, but more balanced teams can switch their Celebi or Latias into that thing all day and never worry about it breaking through.

I'm also intrigued as to what makes you think CM + 3 attacks Keldeo is easy to revenge kill. At +1, any Latios or Starmie without Psyshock gets denied and it doesn't just crumble to any Scarfed attack unless it's super effective. The calcs on Scarf Terrakion's CC doesn't look promising. It's not hard to revenge kill, but your statement was so reductionist that I had to question it.

[frogoholic101]

What does everyone think of Metagross in the metagame? It seems to have fallen out of favour since this generation started. Does it fill any niches?

[Charro]

Metagross can be a good Rotom-W lure I guess, with Trick + Iron Ball

[Ricky Horror]

Originally Posted by Fat frogoholic101

What does everyone think of Metagross in the metagame? It seems to have fallen out of favour since this generation started. Does it fill any niches?

A waste of a slot and horrible stab to boot. Metagross fails to KO anything and outspeed.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat frogoholic101

What does everyone think of Metagross in the metagame? It seems to have fallen out of favour since this generation started. Does it fill any niches?

Any form of weather that's not Sand completely fucks Metagross over, and even then the best thing he can say about Sand is that it "doesn't hurt him, at least." His STABs are pitiful, he has 4MSS out the ass, and overall he just really wishes he was UU, where he could actually satisfy a pretty useful niche. Just use Jirachi.

[Tabuu]

Keldeo is a freakin' monster even with the prevalence of Tornadus-Therian...If Torn-T were to leave OU and leave Keldeo behind...yikes
Agreeing with DarkFallenAngel about Choice Scarf Keldeo. It really is a hell of a Pokemon to check. When I team build and I need to deal with Rain, Keldeo is a Pokemon that always seems to give me problems. I'm then usually forced to run some solid "counter" such as Celebi, Jellicent, or Amoonguss. Sadly SubCM variants can work around Amoonguss if it fails to put Keldeo to sleep. With enough CMs, Giga Drain will fail to work and CM Boosted, Rain Boosted, STAB Hydro Pumps will be nothing to scoff at. Celebi is in the same boat, unless it carries Perish Song, which it really should as it is one of the few reliable counters to Keldeo. Jellicent is another full-stop to Keldeo as long as it lacks HP Ghost. Modest Specs HP Ghost from Keldeo is a 2HKO on Utility Jellicent while Special Wall Variants get a 3HKO...meaning the Jellicent did nothing but sit there and not recover ._.
Due to threats like Keldeo, I think having a Bulky Water or Bulky Grass on your team is some what of a must at this point. They are so useful for checking and countering the never ending Rain that we see in OU
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regarding Metagross, I feel it has taken a deep plunge from its glory days in Gen IV.
The Supercomputer is just not what it used to be. With its passable 90 SpDef, it struggles to take on Special Attackers. Heck, it still struggles from the Physical end of the spectrum thanks to all of the powerful moves and users out there like Terrakion, Landorus and Lucario.
Metagross rarely runs SpDef EVs. Even so, it will struggle to take some heavy hits from Rain Boosted Keldeo and other rain sweepers. Sun Teams don't make it any better as their insane speed and STAB/Pseudo-STAB Sun Boosted Fire Moves will roast Metagross. Even Sand teams make Metagross upset thanks to all of the powerful hitters such as Terrakion, Lucario or Landorus.
My point is Metagross fares pretty poorly against weather teams. Maybe his chance to shine is against Hail Teams but heck...there are some Pokemon that can take on Metagross too.
Metagross is also pretty outclassed in many regards. You want a bulky Stealth Rock setter? Use Bronzong with better overall Defenses and better resistances and immunities. Deoxys-D also plays better than Metagross as it can set up Hazards quickly and prevent common entry hazard setters from setting theirs up.
Yes Metagross could potentially lure in Rotom-W and trick Iron Ball, but Rotom-W will either Volt Switch on you or WoW, crippling Metagross right back...assuming it hits.
Sadly Metagross is just not a top contender this Generation :/

[Shokwav]

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

Keldeo is a freakin' monster even with the prevalence of Tornadus-Therian...If Torn-T were to leave OU and leave Keldeo behind...yikes
Agreeing with DarkFallenAngel about Choice Scarf Keldeo. It really is a hell of a Pokemon to check. When I team build and I need to deal with Rain, Keldeo is a Pokemon that always seems to give me problems. I'm then usually forced to run some solid "counter" such as Celebi, Jellicent, or Amoonguss. Sadly SubCM variants can work around Amoonguss if it fails to put Keldeo to sleep. With enough CMs, Giga Drain will fail to work and CM Boosted, Rain Boosted, STAB Hydro Pumps will be nothing to scoff at. Celebi is in the same boat, unless it carries Perish Song, which it really should as it is one of the few reliable counters to Keldeo. Jellicent is another full-stop to Keldeo as long as it lacks HP Ghost. Modest Specs HP Ghost from Keldeo is a 2HKO on Utility Jellicent while Special Wall Variants get a 3HKO...meaning the Jellicent did nothing but sit there and not recover ._.
Due to threats like Keldeo, I think having a Bulky Water or Bulky Grass on your team is some what of a must at this point. They are so useful for checking and countering the never ending Rain that we see in OU

This is unfortunately true, as rain has really overwhelmed the meta to the point that if you don't pack at least 2 solid, bulky water/grass types you might as well scoop against any common rain team. Even if/when Tornadus-t gets the boot I still feel rain will be very dominant, simple because of the immense offensive pressure from CM/choice Keldeo sets and powerful defensive tanks like Tentacruel and Ferrothorn. Hell Thundurs-t and Tornadus-i are solid enough (but waaaaaaay more manageable than Tornadus-t), rain will never be short on offensive behemoths. It's still really fun to pack a Swift Swim Kingdra on your team and watch them play "keep Ferrothorn alive or lose".

[Myzozoa]

I don't want to get too involved with the theorymon, but the thing about revenge killing specs keldeo is that there is nothing as hard to switch in on as specs keldeo, so yes you can try to revenge kill it with w.e, but it isn't exactly easy to KO and whatever you switch in to revenge kill it isn't as threatening as keldeo and so the massive advantage is still there. Scarf Keldeo is a fantastic revenge killer and late game cleaner for obvious reasons (even though it's dumb because it doesn't have u-turn, trick, or pursuit, aldaron).

[Tabuu]

Created by yours truly n_n

But really. I can't take it no more.
Rain is just so dominant right now...guess the creators at Pokemon were tired of Sand. On your note about Tornadus-I and Thundurus-T. I agree with you. Even if Tornadus-Therian gets the boot, his Incarnate form can pick up where he left off...spamming ridiculous Hurricanes. And TBH I kinda like that form a little more thanks to Prankster lol, but that's just me.
I think something must be done to really balance this stuff out. I'm not really in favor of just banning stuff to Ubers and get them out of OU. Nor am I in favor of another Proposal that could potentially nerf a lot of Pokemon with potential...
Hopefully Gen VI will act as a metagame balancer and not a toppler.

One more thing: I think in this current metagame, Jellicent and Celebi just might start to climb the usage ladder. With their respectable resistances and stats, not to mention utility, they are probably a few of the handful of Pokemon that act as the saving grace against the merciless downpour from Drizzle...What do you guys think we'll see an increase of?

[Shokwav]

Currently? I don't think there's much we can do, you basically NEED strong resists to hold off those painful Hydro Pumps. Seriously, even Politoed's Scalds hurt a lot in the rain (And I hate Scald, like Water-types really needed a buff). I hope that rain gets a nerf or all the other weathers (mainly hail) get buffed up to be able to compete, but it seems like Game Freak just hates Ice types. Hopefully we'll see a Swift Swim clone for Hail or a really good Blizzard spammer in gen VI.

After the (hopefully) Tornadus-t ban? Keldeo is going to go up in usage, so bulky Celebis everywhere, Jellicent will probably go up also. I also think that Rotom-W usage will go down, Thundurus-t is going to go up in usage A LOT, and Jirachi will probably go down a bit.

[Vemane]

Originally Posted by Fat Shokwav

Currently? I don't think there's much we can do, you basically NEED strong resists to hold off those painful Hydro Pumps. Seriously, even Politoed's Scalds hurt a lot in the rain (And I hate Scald, like Water-types really needed a buff). I hope that rain gets a nerf or all the other weathers (mainly hail) get buffed up to be able to compete, but it seems like Game Freak just hates Ice types. Hopefully we'll see a Swift Swim clone for Hail or a really good Blizzard spammer in gen VI.

After the (hopefully) Tornadus-t ban? Keldeo is going to go up in usage, so bulky Celebis everywhere, Jellicent will probably go up also. I also think that Rotom-W usage will go down, Thundurus-t is going to go up in usage A LOT, and Jirachi will probably go down a bit.

Politoed's scald does not hurt...

And are you aware how many checks there are to rain/water moves?

Celebi, amoongus, jellicent, vaporeon, tentacruel, latias, virizon, zapdos, the list goes on.

Atm, there is nothing to do about the metagame until the suspect period ends, so all you can do is adapt to it.

you can't expect to walk in with an early bw2 team and still do as well as before, because the metagame is different

You shape your teams to the metagame, not the other way around

[Shokwav]

You sure do like debating, huh?

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

Politoed's scald does not hurt...

Utterly subjective, but it truthfully is the burn that annoys me most.

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

And are you aware how many checks there are to rain/water moves?

Celebi, amoongus, jellicent, vaporeon, tentacruel, latias, virizon, zapdos, the list goes on.

What is this supposed to mean? I think I already knew that over 8 Pokemon resisted Water, but I don't usually run a team full of Water resists. The fact that I do usually pack 2 - 3 resists per team just shows the overall dominance of Rain.

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

Atm, there is nothing to do about the metagame until the suspect period ends, so all you can do is adapt to it.

...Okay, I wasn't expecting a sudden gift from the heavens to hail teams, I know it's going to be this way for a while.

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

you can't expect to walk in with an early bw2 team and still do as well as before, because the metagame is different

I barely even played early BW2 as I jumped right back in after a hiatus. I know how to handle rain but it's prevalence and power can get pretty frustrating.

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

You shape your teams to the metagame, not the other way around

This is a very dangerous and slippery argument, so I'm not even going to go there.

Overall I really want rain to be viable without having to neuter every single threat in the rain, but it's seriously annoying that GF just seems to keep adding to the abusers list and we keep having to go through this cycle.

[Vemane]

My point is, rather than talking about how annoying rain is, maybe discuss how to beat it, or what to run on it or what have you.

The difference between the two is that one is unproductive complaining while the other invites discussion.

This is a very dangerous and slippery argument, so I'm not even going to go there.

Lolwut? :p Dangerous and slippery? It isn't even an argument, it's a fact. It doesn't matter what YOU use, the metagame will stay the same. Therefore, you can either change what you use, or do poorly.

[Shokwav]

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

My point is, rather than talking about how annoying rain is, maybe discuss how to beat it, or what to run on it or what have you..

I guess you skipped the second half of that post.

Originally Posted by Fat Shokwav

After the (hopefully) Tornadus-t ban? Keldeo is going to go up in usage, so bulky Celebis everywhere, Jellicent will probably go up also. I also think that Rotom-W usage will go down, Thundurus-t is going to go up in usage A LOT, and Jirachi will probably go down a bit.

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

Lolwut? :p Dangerous and slippery? It isn't even an argument, it's a fact. It doesn't matter what YOU use, the metagame will stay the same.

What I'm getting at is that that can be perceived and used to justify a lot of things that would have rather poisonous effects on the meta.

[LucaroarkZ]

In my opinion, beating Rain isn't even as hard as people make it out to be. I typically use Water resists that last a long time. As an offensive player Latias tends to be my first choice, and as an added bonus Latias is one of the best Keldeo checks, if not the best. Jellicent is there too, but don't try tanking Thunders with that. Of course, there is the other option of simply using your own weather, but Hail is really the only weather that matches up well against Rain (that's enough of a reason to use it though). Then there's beating Tornadus-T... Not a whole lot of options here, but you have Jirachi, SpD Rotom-W, Zapdos, SpD Skarmory (kind of). On the offensive side, Jolteon and Weavile are really the only realistic ways of outspeeding Tornadus-T without resorting to Choice Scarf users.

To be honest, there are many viable Water resists, tons of which are very easy to fit on a team (Dragonite, Ferrothorn, Latias, etc.) This alone prevents Rain teams from simply spamming Hydro Pump into oblivion. Tornadus-T, on the other hand, is a little harder to deal with than the Rain-boosted Water moves. Just my two cents.

[Haunter**]

Originally Posted by Fat Shokwav

What is this supposed to mean? I think I already knew that over 8 Pokemon resisted Water, but I don't usually run a team full of Water resists. The fact that I do usually pack 2 - 3 resists per team just shows the overall dominance of Rain.

Just going to respond to this passage, because it caught my attention and it's plain wrong. Having 2-3 water resistances proves almost nothing because:
1) many top tier Pokemon (see Dragonite, Lati@s, Keldeo, Salamence etc.) happen to be resistant to water and I'm pretty sure that people don't use them because they're scared of how "dominant" rain is;
2) water is a pretty strong offensive type, and it's always been. If you carried a team that was weak to water, then chances were you'd have been swept by stuff like LO Starmie, Gyarados, Kingdra etc. in Gen IV, where drizzle Politoed didn't exist;
3) until BW\2 gave rain teams new toys, namely Tornadus-T, Keldeo and Tundurus-T, you could just slap a Rotom-W on any team and keep in check 4-5 members of opposing rain teams with relative ease.

Hopefully with Torn-T and Keldeo getting the boot, rain will go back to the, objectively strong but manageable, weather it was at the end of BW\1.

[Rayquaza_]

Originally Posted by Fat Haunter

Hopefully with Torn-T and Keldeo getting the boot, rain will go back to the, objectively strong but manageable, weather it was at the end of BW\1.

Don't assume this is going to happen. Especially Keldeo.

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat Haunter

Hopefully with Torn-T and Keldeo getting the boot, rain will go back to the, objectively strong but manageable, weather it was at the end of BW\1.

Alright...I'm sorry for my last post...I was real tired and kinda didn't realize how stupid my post sounded. What I meant was Keldeo and Tornadus-T are too powerful...I kinda generalized them as "Rain"....whoops

I feel that if Torn-T gets the boot Rain is going to be become one step more manageabler....if that makes sense
Keldeo is still a powerhouse of this meta, but for some reason I forgot Latias, Latios, Dragonites, and Ferrothorns existed. All of these Pokemon are able to tank some Hydro Pumps and respond accordingly.

Despite how Rain is not as godly as it sounds, it still is one heck of a dominant playstyle...

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

Alright...I'm sorry for my last post...I was real tired and kinda didn't realize how stupid my post sounded. What I meant was Keldeo and Tornadus-T are too powerful...I kinda generalized them as "Rain"....whoops

I feel that if Torn-T gets the boot Rain is going to be become one step more manageabler....if that makes sense
Keldeo is still a powerhouse of this meta, but for some reason I forgot Latias, Latios, Dragonites, and Ferrothorns existed. All of these Pokemon are able to tank some Hydro Pumps and respond accordingly.

Despite how Rain is not as godly as it sounds, it still is one heck of a dominant playstyle...

It should be noted that Ferrothorn cannot take Secret Sword from Keldeo, and most of those cited Water resists cannot actually take repeated rain-boosted Water-type attacks. To name a few: Starmie, Salamence, and Keldeo. What makes difference here is when you can deal with the opposing Pokémon that has strong, rain-boosted Water attacks by other means, like revenge killing it or outspeeding and KOing with another attack.

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

It should be noted that Ferrothorn cannot take Secret Sword from Keldeo, and most of those cited Water resists cannot actually take repeated rain-boosted Water-type attacks. To name a few: Starmie, Salamence, and Keldeo. What makes difference here is when you can deal with the opposing Pokémon that has strong, rain-boosted Water attacks by other means, like revenge killing it or outspeeding and KOing with another attack.

That's why I said "some Hydro Pumps" n_n
And yes obviously Ferrothorn cannot take a Secret Sword...I used for as an example of which Pokemon were capable of taking Hydro Pumps from the likes of Keldeo haha
Man, seems like I really gotta clarify myself more ._.

[Hiddenfreezer]

I have a serious question: If rain is so good, why doesn't anyone counters rain teams with swift swimmers like kabutops (rapid spin, aqua jet, rock stab against genies) kingdra (in general good) ?