Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

[Chou Toshio]

I'm kind of surprised Flareon wasn't more use against Sabrina-- I mean 110 Special to stand up to her attacks, and 130 ATK + Body Slam. On paper, it would look like Flareon would be a lot more useful against her than the majority of available options against this gym.

[Hemp Man]

Flareon is pretty good against Sabrina, just remember that her Pokemon are faster and will get a hit in first before Flareon destroys them.

Back in the day, I struggled with Sabrina and looked up what Pokemon had good Special to take her attacks and good Physical attack and noticed my best options were Dragonite, Gyarados, and Flareon. I decided to raise a Flareon as the first 2 were a bit though to train lol.

@The Guy who asked me Flareon vs Blue: I picked Bulbasaur as my starter in that run. Flareon was alright for Pidgeot, Alakazam, and Exeggutor. Don't bother against Gyarados or Rhydon though.

[Longfellow]

Flareon can probably beat Blue's Fire Pokémon too.

So I'm running Krabby right now and I realized that until he gets Crabhammer he's just like Flareon. Body Slam hurts like a mofo. Then I realized you get Flareon at a higher level, quite a bit earlier in the game.

So now I get it now. Flareon's mid.

[Nyara]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzH4tIKhGAY

This's why Clefable is at least high, ok, yes, it NEED's TM's, but she can handle almost anything on the complete game without any major trouble, it had the stats, it's available earlier on the game, it evolves really soon. So, come on, the unique thing that make Clefable not Top Tier is the fact that she needs the TM's to properly works, but if she can use them, she can solo the game without any trouble. Just keep her away from the rare Fighthing-Type Pokémon and you'll sweep a lot.

And even if you don't want to give her the necessary TM's, you can just give her a Mega Punch TM (best user of it so far, change it later for Strenght), spam Minimize/Defense Curl on any gym and you'll solo it without trouble, and on late game also use Light Screen for being almost invencible against special attacks. And she can also use Sing, too, for catch wild Pokémon and win some time on some battles.

Mid Tier with just Mega Punch.

High Tier with Mega Punch + Thunderbolt/Psychic/Fire Blast/Blizzard/Ice Beam

Add the facts of this quote, too:

I think you underestimate how much exp. matters. Clefable, being in the fast exp. track, can reach level 58 in the same amount of experience it takes the slow Gyarados to hit level 50. This means either (1) you run Clefable at a higher level than Gyarados and it thereby does more damage with Boltbeam or (2) you run everyone at the same level and Gyarados just brings the team down.

Gyarados is by other hand, High or Mid Tier, you need to grind that Magikarp a lot, and you'll not being able to properly use him on a Gym until you beat Erika (because you'll need an excesive grind to get it ready for Misty, so, nope, Lt. Surge? He'll massive destroy him. Erika will win almost any 1vs1 against Gyarados, too), so, it's a good and later great Pokémon, but it needs grind, and even then, he can't really sweep at all against a good number of Pokémon and gyms.

[Hemp Man]

Uh, Gyarados can easily swept Erika with Ice Beam, and even without that Bite/Dragon Rage hits like a truck against her Pokemon.

[Lucchini]

I don't think the rate at which a Pokemon gains levels should be given much prominence. I can see it making sense in instances like Magikarp's, where it is a burden upon the player and its slow exp gain makes it one for a longer period of time. But if it's a Pokemon that can fight for itself, it will see action because it's good at fighting not because you're desperately trying to feed it more levels. These two things (progressing through the game and levelling up) go together.

[Mekkah**]

Vermillion Gym does not completely destroy Gyarados. Surge's Raichu does. Voltorb and Magnemite have no Electric moves and Pikachu is outsped and OHKO'd by Bite.

[Longfellow]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

I don't think the rate at which a Pokemon gains levels should be given much prominence. I can see it making sense in instances like Magikarp's, where it is a burden upon the player and its slow exp gain makes it one for a longer period of time. But if it's a Pokemon that can fight for itself, it will see action because it's good at fighting not because you're desperately trying to feed it more levels. These two things (progressing through the game and levelling up) go together.

I emphasize exp. rate because it often goes forgotten and because it seriously affects the way you perceive a Pokémon's power. If you're unobservant and you run tests in the usual way--equal level for each Pokémon--you'll praise Magikarp as the hero and ignore Clefairy without noticing that Clefairy's whole team is two levels higher. It's not that post-evolution Magikarp needs to be desperately fed levels. It's just not as amazing as its stats suggest.

General trick to adjust attack stats based on exp. rates:

Slow: minus base 15
Normal: =
Parabolic: ranges from plus 15 in mid-game to plus 5/zero in end-game
Fast: plus base 15
Normal (trade): plus base 25
Parabolic (trade): SPOT, TERRY, and RICKY range from plus 40 in mid-game to plus 30 in end-game.

These adjustments don't, of course, apply at the point of capture. After ~10 levels of training though this trick should be accurate.

Also parabolic Pokémon have a huge advantage early-game, but I'm not gonna try to translate that into base stats.

[Hemp Man]

Who are SPOT and TERRY? I know RICKY is Machamp, because I was the one who tested the Yellow Machamp.

Originally Posted by Fat Mekkah

Vermillion Gym does not completely destroy Gyarados. Surge's Raichu does. Voltorb and Magnemite have no Electric moves and Pikachu is outsped and OHKO'd by Bite.

RB trainers usually just go by level-up moves with the exception of gym leaders who give their strongest Poke the TM move. Being that no RBY Pokemon learns Thunderbolt through level-up (besides Yellow Pikachu), you wont have to worry about Thunderbolt outside of Surge's Raichu.

Yellow changed things up by giving Gym Leaders and E4 members better movesets. Although only time I remember seeing electric moves outside of Surge's Raichu is Lance. One of his Dragonair has Thunderbolt (which Gyarados can tank) and his Dragonite has Thunder (which he wont tank...better hope for the miss). Oh and Gary now has either a Magneton/Jolteon.

[Son_of_Shadoo]

Dunno about Terry, but Spot is the traded Nidoran F.

[Mekkah**]

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi..._Red_and_Green

[Hemp Man]

In the latest issue of THE SMOG they review the RBY gym leaders, they didnt think as highly of Misty as you guys did aha.

[TM13IceBeam]

Misty really isn't so tough. People always talk about how hard her Starmie is to beat, but its best attack is BubbleBeam and it's only level 21. Heck, it doesn't even have Recover! There's a handy place to level up nearby in Nugget Bridge if your Pokémon are under-leveled. If you picked Charmander as your starter, you're still an idiot. However, this time, there are Bellsprout nearby past Nugget Bridge and Pikachu in Viridian Forest, so you're not 100% boned, I guess. People who picked Bulbasaur as their starter will have few problems with this Gym, as will people playing Pokémon Yellow, since you receive Bulbasaur as a gift before you have to battle the Gym and start with Pikachu to boot. People who started with Squirtle will probably have to grab either a Bellsprout or a Pikachu to help out, but resisting BubbleBeam helps tremendously.

Hm, although I'd still watch out for something that outruns and outdamages everything that has a decent STAB to boot.

[Hemp Man]

They overhype Pikachu in that fight too, Starmie can take a ThunderShock but Pikachu cant really take a BubbleBeam.

[Lucchini]

Either can take one in my experience; Pikachu is just slower so it might not even live for long enough to land one on Starmie what with its high critical ratio.

I guess nobody forces you to face Misty as soon as you arrive in Cerulean? It's usually quicker to beat here when you're there and not have to come back later, though.

[Longfellow]

Pikachu's frail but if it gets a para and a Thundershock or two, its teammates can finish the job. Nobody said you have to survive the fight you help win.

If you want to face Misty ASAP the best Pokémon is Ivysaur of course, but Clefable works really well. It's sturdy, has a huge Mega Punch, and can Sing even.



Can we talk about expectations for team size and level? Take Farfetch'd (RB), for instance. If you run a team of six Pokémon and skip some trainers, it'll learn Slash by about the seventh gym. If you run three Pokémon, it'll learn Slash not long after Rocket Hideout. Or take Charmander (RB), who, if you let him solo the early game, can beat Brock pretty easily at level thirteenish, but struggles if he has to carry the weight of a six-member party.

I suggest we put out a list of boss fights and the level an average Pokémon can expect to be for it, based on a typical, somewhat leisurely (aka not speedrun) yet efficient run of the game (I know this depends on what you catch, but let's say you don't get that level 31 Dugtrio and your team consists of non-traded, medium-exp. Pokémon). Something like this. Just throwing out numbers, tell me what you think:

Brock: team of 3 with an average level of 8; if the starter is included, they're probably level 10-12.
Cerulean Blue: team of 4, avg. level 16
SS Anne Blue: team of 5, avg. level 19
Giovanni 1: team of 6, avg. level 23
Pokémon tower: 25
1st of Koga/Sabrina/Blaine: 30 (maybe more if you do Sabrina first)
2nd of KSB: 34
3rd of KSB: 37
Giovanni: 39
Before E4: 45

[Nyara]

The same level of it's lower leveled Pokémon is the standar.

Medium Slow Pokémon have different EXP curve, make the proper ajust with them. Level 31 Dugtrio and few other exceptions (like gift Pokémon) should be properly ajusted.

+3 if Starter, until Brock, 2+ until Misty, 1+ until Lt. Surge, 0 later.
+1 for each less Pokémon from 6 on the Party (Full Party = 0, 3 Pokémon Party = 3+, 1 Pokémon Party = 5+)
+1 for Fast (EXP) Group Pokémon
-1 for Slow (EXP) Group Pokémon
-2 if Fast Play, until Brock, 3- until Misty, 4- after Misty
-4 if Speedrun, until Brock, 5- until Misty, 6- until Lt. Surge, 7- until Erika, 8- after Erika

Brock: Level 10
Misty: Level 18
Lt. Surge: Level 21 (Pikachu is underlevel)
Erika: Level 29 (Tangela is underlevel)
Sabrina: Level 35-37
Koga: Level 35-37
Blaine: Level 40
Giovanni: Level 42
Elite Four: Level 47

Lorelei's lower level is 53, but there's not too much experience from defeating Giovanni to reach to the Elite Four, so, the difference of levels is just of 5 at best, you'll need to grind or use few Pokémon if you're intending to reach the benchmark of level 50. Level 35 of Sabrina/Koga if you're facing one of them first, level 37 for the second. You may want to grind a bit for the Yellow Version against some like Sabrina or Lt. Surge if you're not carrying the specific counter.

The for each Pokémon on the party thing is more precise once you reach to Lt. Surge, before it's more like the half of the effect, while it's almost the double of the effect once you're on the nearly-end part of the game (entering to the Giovanni's Gym, for example), it's more like a curve.

[atsync]

The thing about Misty is that she often can be easy to beat because she acts stupidly. In my most recent playthrough, I swept her team with a level 21 Mankey spamming Karate Chop because all she did was use Tackle/Harden/X-Defend :/ It's all luck really because Mankey could have lost easily if Misty has just picked BubbleBeam, but as I mostly play Yellow I don't really have the option of using a starter Bulbasaur (obviously Bulbasaur is in Cerulean in Yellow but it has to grind so it isn't much better than the other grass types) so it's just easier for me to just use whatever is on my team at the time and just let her forfeit the battle with her dumbness. Pretty much always works.

Not sure how useful leveling information is going to be for our purposes but as far as leveling goes I think that Nyara's listings are reasonably close to what I get, at least in RB. The levels of my team members don't really change in Yellow but the whole "The same level of it's lower leveled Pokémon is the standard" thing doesn't work as well when you have (off the top of my head) Koga with a level 42 Venonat, Sabrina with a level 50 Abra and Blaine with a level 48 Ninetales as their lowest level team members. It really depends on what order things are done though, not just gym order but route order as well (e.g. you have the option of doing both cycling road and route 12-15 before Koga, or you can do one before and the other one after). My team tends to be at or close to level 50 by the time I hit the elite 4 either way, and I tend to be a completionist when playing.

@Longfellow: Do you normally have a full team by the first Giovanni battle? Normally my team isn't full until at least after Koga (that's where Zapdos, Articuno and all those late-game water types come in and I like to reserve at least 1 spot for one of those depending on what I need).

[Nyara]

@atsync: It's just a list of the aprox. level you'll have your Pokémon by the moment (with minimal or without grind, not completing the Pokédex, and stuff), of course on the Yellow version (like I said) there are some overleved monsters, and you'll want to carry it's specific counter or just grind a bit. On the Yellow version there is not a lot of difference with the experience you get, anyway. The use of already trained Pokémon like the Dugtrio LV31, or a Legendary Bird on mid game change somewhat the chart, because it will almost not count as a trained Pokémon because you din't invested experience on it at all.

[Cobraroll]

Why do people say Bulbasaur is in Cerulean in Yellow? If I recall correctly, it's in the house next to the Pewter exit of Diglett's Tunnel, and you have to have visited the Power Plant to receive it. It's actually the last starter you get in the game. Charmander is on Route 24, north of Cerulean, and Squirtle is in Vermilion, but to get Bulbasaur you need to beat Koga and surf a little.

[Lucchini]

Not sure what you're confusing this with, but that's not the case at all.

Clefable is a Misty counter I've always recommended but we can't assume it's always in play. You need a bit of effort to catch one, raise it and continue using it longterm (which according to the general consensus isn't worth it, though I disagree). A quicker thing to do would be to catch a Bellsprout if Bulbasaur isn't your starter.

Personally I try not to skip any trainers, and usually train a team of 4-5 depending on how many non-combat HM slaves I need. Not too many in RBY since there aren't any worthless HMs and things like Strength work wonders on some Pokemon knowing other options are really contested (Body Slam et al). A team of 5 is fun to manage and never has a problem with the gyms.

[Longfellow]

Posting from phone so can't be long.

I actually usually run three or four Pokémon but didn't want to be biased for this thread so in my recent runs I've been running six Pokémon. I think lowest level of the leader is a good system. The goal is to be standardized. Otherwise we can't ever ensure that we're talking about the same thing.

Re: Clefable I just mentioned it as another reason it should be high tier. Unless there are unsaid objections to the arguments on the past couple pages, I think Clefairy in high (or mid? But like high, actually) has consensus.

Sfill haven't finished my Growlithe run. I decided to do Mankey first and it's a pretty fun Pokémon so far. Access to Dig, Rock Slide, Thunderbolt, and Karate Chop is gravy. Not sure what to think tierwise; still mid probably, but on the good end.

[Zowayix]

Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll

Why do people say Bulbasaur is in Cerulean in Yellow? If I recall correctly, it's in the house next to the Pewter exit of Diglett's Tunnel, and you have to have visited the Power Plant to receive it. It's actually the last starter you get in the game. Charmander is on Route 24, north of Cerulean, and Squirtle is in Vermilion, but to get Bulbasaur you need to beat Koga and surf a little.

Um, no.
Bulbasaur is given to you by a lady in Cerulean City if your Pikachu's happiness is high enough.
The only things on the Pewter exit of Diglett's Cave are a Clefairy for Mr. Mime in-game trade, and HM05 Flash. And nothing in the game requires you to visit the Power Plant and then backtrack.

[atsync]

I'll go on the record and say that I am convinced that Clefairy should be above Low, but I do not care whether it goes into Mid or High. If someone rewrites it and puts it in either of those tiers I'm not going to argue against it, so just pick whichever you think is best.

[JSND]

I kinda disagree with Flareon on mid, decent stats, slow speed that in the end means jack**** since its quick enough to outspeed what it needs etc.

Maybe for the TM reliance....