np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[Vemane]

Originally Posted by Fat Ningildo

So you're promoting a counter to a rain based sweeper when said counter is best used on a rain team...ok.

I don't understand what you are trying to argue.

A counter is a counter, in fact it counters it BETTER in rain, so I really do not understand your point.

[Ningildo]

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

I don't understand what you are trying to argue.

A counter is a counter, in fact it counters it BETTER in rain, so I really do not understand your point.

The mons you suggested to be used to support your counter are used in rain. Promoting more rain usage. I don't know about you, but I think less rain usage would lead to a less stale metagame.

[Vemane]

Originally Posted by Fat Ningildo

The mons you suggested to be used to support your counter are used in rain. Promoting more rain usage. I don't know about you, but I think less rain usage would lead to a less stale metagame.

Except this thread isn't about rain usage or a fun tier, it's about tornadus-t (and keldeo) and whether or not they belong in the metagame.

It really does not matter what you use at the moment, because the metagame does not shape itself around you. It is currently dominated by rain, and that is how it will stay, like it or not, until the suspect period ends.

[Curtains]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7088502

This is a great example of how pathetic tornadus-t is outside of rain and how my plan made it hard for him to keep rain down. Tornadus-t was never a threat and I always had options if he did play him well. Note that I dont have any dedicated tornadus-t counters. I let rocks and residual damage do work.

[kd24]

everybody stop the suspect tests, a sun team that packed 2 trap mons to tentacruel just beat an average ladderer. EVERYBODY STOP CLEARLY THIS SHOWS TORNADUS-T ISNT BROKEN, JUST WATCH THIS ONE BATTLE. EVERYTHING ELSE SAID IS IRRELEVANT

also, i think its funny that if hurricane had hit the ninetales, i actually like the chances of the tornadus-t user a lot more vs your team depending on your victini set (cb or scarfed?). but still, what a stupid post

[Woodchuck]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7088502

This is a great example of how pathetic tornadus-t is outside of rain and how my plan made it hard for him to keep rain down. Tornadus-t was never a threat and I always had options if he did play him well. Note that I dont have any dedicated tornadus-t counters. I let rocks and residual damage do work.

your opponent played like complete garbage.


defeating one poor player does not an argument make.

anyway, what sets are you guys using with Keldeo? I've made use of Scarf and Specs and maybe even a little CM + 3 Attacks. It tends to work well with CB Tar to take out Lati@s and Jellicent, but what I'm interested in finding out about is whether SubCM Keldeo is any good. Lack of coverage seems like it could be difficult but it is perhaps strong against stall? What is SubCM Keldeo useful for, and what support does it need?

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat kd24

everybody stop the suspect tests, a sun team that packed 2 trap mons to tentacruel just beat an average ladderer. EVERYBODY STOP CLEARLY THIS SHOWS TORNADUS-T ISNT BROKEN, JUST WATCH THIS ONE BATTLE. EVERYTHING ELSE SAID IS IRRELEVANT

also, i think its funny that if hurricane had hit the ninetales, i actually like the chances of the tornadus-t user a lot more vs your team depending on your victini set (cb or scarfed?). but still, what a stupid post

Hey at least I am posting factual battling evidence instead of trashing others post... Scarfed by the way. No chance to win anyway. No matter the player or players it still shows that tornadus has to deal with a 50% hurricane. And my team isnt bad i am like 20 and 2 with it.


Edit: instead of being LQ and talking about the opponent can you make reasonable responses to my post? I can't help who i get paired up with. It is the suspect test ladder so it is cool to post evidence from the battles. Obviously it shows my point. The big bad uber couldnt score in a whore house outside of rain.

[Audiosurfer]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Hey at least I am posting factual battling evidence instead of trashing others post... Scarfed by the way. No chance to win anyway. No matter the player or players it still shows that tornadus has to deal with a 50% hurricane. And my team isnt bad i am like 20 and 2 with it.

Tornadus has to deal w/ a 70% Hurricane. It's only 50% because you were running Sun. Which really isn't proving much btw, seeing as no one is arguing that Tornadus-T is a good mon in Sun since it's quite obvious it's not. Anyways, as kd24 said, if you have to pack all of these ways to counter 1 mon in your team, it really doesn't help prove that it's not broken.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7088502

This is a great example of how pathetic tornadus-t is outside of rain and how my plan made it hard for him to keep rain down. Tornadus-t was never a threat and I always had options if he did play him well. Note that I dont have any dedicated tornadus-t counters. I let rocks and residual damage do work.

Personally, your opponent was really horrible; He was not Tornadus-T that was a problem or not. He made so many mistakes, like expecting a Bolt Strike only to be melted by V-Create; he let its Tentacruel be trapped by Gothitelle; And I am speaking this despite not liking your team and the way which it was constructed. Nothing of this prove that Tornadus-T is pathetic outside rain, although it is obviously sub-par on sun.

Originally Posted by Fat Woodchuck

your opponent played like complete garbage.


defeating one poor player does not an argument make.

anyway, what sets are you guys using with Keldeo? I've made use of Scarf and Specs and maybe even a little CM + 3 Attacks. It tends to work well with CB Tar to take out Lati@s and Jellicent, but what I'm interested in finding out about is whether SubCM Keldeo is any good. Lack of coverage seems like it could be difficult but it is perhaps strong against stall? What is SubCM Keldeo useful for, and what support does it need?

I was using Specs Keldeo alongside Band Tyranitar. Thogeter, they formed a good core that defeated most of metagame, since Band Tyranitar was capable of defeating all Keldeo's checks. I was using Specs Keldeo because it was hitting hard right off the bat instead of wasting time setting up. The fact that I am locked on one attack does not matter because once I get rid of most Keldeo's counters, I am free to spam Hydro Pump, and even though they are not rain boosted, Keldeo still manages to OHKO/2HKO many things. Especially Steel-types. Actually, Keldeo can get rid of Steel-types as easily as Heatran. While Heatran use super-effective Fire-type attacks to get rid of all Steels, except opposing Heatran which are defeated by Earth Power, Keldeo simply washes all of them with Hydro Pump, and most of them are either 2HKOed or OHKOed by Hydro Pump, even without rain. Ferrothorn, one of the few Steel-types that don't fear Hydro Pump from Keldeo, is defeated by Secret Sword.

Again, I don't know why people criticize Keldeo's lack of coverage. It's STABs are so powerful that coverage doesn't matter much, especially if they are boosted by rain. Most things that resist Keldeo's attacks are weak to Ice, to tell the truth.

[doublenikesocks]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7088502

This is a great example of how pathetic tornadus-t is outside of rain and how my plan made it hard for him to keep rain down. Tornadus-t was never a threat and I always had options if he did play him well. Note that I dont have any dedicated tornadus-t counters. I let rocks and residual damage do work.

lol that was me and I wasn't really trying do do much lol. idgaf about that battle as soon as I saw double trappers

[Vemane]

Originally Posted by Fat Woodchuck

your opponent played like complete garbage.


defeating one poor player does not an argument make.

anyway, what sets are you guys using with Keldeo? I've made use of Scarf and Specs and maybe even a little CM + 3 Attacks. It tends to work well with CB Tar to take out Lati@s and Jellicent, but what I'm interested in finding out about is whether SubCM Keldeo is any good. Lack of coverage seems like it could be difficult but it is perhaps strong against stall? What is SubCM Keldeo useful for, and what support does it need?

Scarf is definitely my favorite at the moment, but I've found it difficult to fit into a team without compounding electric weaknesses. :/

With sub cm, it is a great set, simply because the two moves are all he really needs. In order to use him effectively, even with a hidden power, Latis+Jellicent+etc. must be eliminated anyways, thus eliminating the use of that (weak) coverage move.

Plus at +2-6, who really gives a shit if they resist?

So pursuit support is probably best. He works best on rain (obvs) because of rain stab able to now break through resists much easier.

Originally Posted by Fat doublenikesocks

lol that was me and I wasn't really trying do do much lol. idgaf about that battle as soon as I saw double trappers

Damn... maybe I should run double trappers if it's that easy.




In other news, I had a scarf rachi use fucking stealth rock just to bluff a not-scarf and revenge my tornadus.

Like wtf bitch

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat Audiosurfer

Tornadus has to deal w/ a 70% Hurricane. It's only 50% because you were running Sun. Which really isn't proving much btw, seeing as no one is arguing that Tornadus-T is a good mon in Sun since it's quite obvious it's not. Anyways, as kd24 said, if you have to pack all of these ways to counter 1 mon in your team, it really doesn't help prove that it's not broken.

It you notice my team where am I countering tornadus? I have a gothitelle a dugtrio a scarfed victini and some other guys. The only thing that comes close to a counter is donphan if tornadus is at really low health or ninetales if rocks arent down and hurricane misses. My team has a distinct plan and I base my moves off that plan. In most of my battles (not just the one posted) tornadus gets caught in the cross fire and killed because they are scared of having certain pokemon trapped. I also dont understand why my team choice has to do with anything? The only point i can make about tornadus if it is only in rain? Thats not fair.... I thought drizzle wasnt on the table. If i can win my weather war then tornadus is not an issue. I didnt know we banned sand and sun? If I have to only post rain battles then something else should be banned... An uber is suppose to be able to work well in all weathers unless a certain combination of 2 abilities make it too powerful.

[TheCanadianWifier]

As much I support Tornadus-T remaining OU, neither of the opponents in the posted battles were very smart players. In the match with the zapdos, the first time he got the confusion, I can understand switching Tornadus out, not wanting to risk it early. But the other times after that, it was just silly to NOT take the risk and go for the kill, as he had nothing to lose at that point. However, from what I can assume, the match wasn't to show how bad Tornadus-t is, it was to show how zapdos is an acceptable counter; so I do believe that this battle proves this point - somewhat. As for the second battle, well, the guy really was a) unprepared for sun and b) evidently inexperienced with the meta. And the point of posting was to show how bad it is in other weather? Meh, as much as I agree Tornadus isn't anything too special, that battle really was a bad example Curtains. The opponent really did nothing to try to win a weather war, the match was only 19 turns. (not that match length has anything to do with it, just saying that it ended quickly and there was no real 'war')

[masterful]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7088502

This is a great example of how pathetic tornadus-t is outside of rain and how my plan made it hard for him to keep rain down. Tornadus-t was never a threat and I always had options if he did play him well. Note that I dont have any dedicated tornadus-t counters. I let rocks and residual damage do work.

This is worse than the earlier "this one battle disproves Tornadus's brokenness" post. Your opponent was begging to have Thundurus and Tentacruel killed, and even then your win still required a decent amount of luck. Even if this battle had been between two perfect players, and you won, it would show nothing, because it is a single battle. It requires far more evidence than a single battle to show a poke's brokenness or lack thereof.

[Shokwav]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

It you notice my team where am I countering tornadus? I have a gothitelle a dugtrio a scarfed victini and some other guys. The only thing that comes close to a counter is donphan if tornadus is at really low health or ninetales if rocks arent down and hurricane misses. My team has a distinct plan and I base my moves off that plan. In most of my battles (not just the one posted) tornadus gets caught in the cross fire and killed because they are scared of having certain pokemon trapped. I also dont understand why my team choice has to do with anything? The only point i can make about tornadus if it is only in rain? Thats not fair.... I thought drizzle wasnt on the table. If i can win my weather war then tornadus is not an issue. I didnt know we banned sand and sun? If I have to only post rain battles then something else should be banned... An uber is suppose to be able to work well in all weathers unless a certain combination of 2 abilities make it too powerful.

I think the point is that your team doesn't represent the average team. The fact not only were you using sun but also dual trappers, but your opponent played poorly from turn 1 (switching Thundurus into Victini? Keeping Keldeo in on Venusaur?) and it looks like he wasn't even trying (from his recent posts he said he wasn't). Overall, Tornadus needs rain to be reliable, your opponent obviously didn't give a shit about winning, and no reasonable player would try to Hurricane a Ninetales IN THE SUN 3 times.

[Audiosurfer]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

It you notice my team where am I countering tornadus? I have a gothitelle a dugtrio a scarfed victini and some other guys. The only thing that comes close to a counter is donphan if tornadus is at really low health or ninetales if rocks arent down and hurricane misses. My team has a distinct plan and I base my moves off that plan. In most of my battles (not just the one posted) tornadus gets caught in the cross fire and killed because they are scared of having certain pokemon trapped. I also dont understand why my team choice has to do with anything? The only point i can make about tornadus if it is only in rain? Thats not fair.... I thought drizzle wasnt on the table. If i can win my weather war then tornadus is not an issue. I didnt know we banned sand and sun? If I have to only post rain battles then something else should be banned... An uber is suppose to be able to work well in all weathers unless a certain combination of 2 abilities make it too powerful.

The point I and other people were making is that the match is in no way indicative of whether or not Tornadus-T is broken. No planning or smart play was exhibited, seeing as it was a match with pretty lousy play on your opponent's part and he made no effort to try and hinder any of your moves, or maintain his own setup. So saying how you managed to keep Tornadus-T in check against what was some pretty lousy opposition is hardly a convincing argument saying that it's easy to check with just hazards. And that last part doesnt make too much sense either really, especially given the context. Saying that a devastating sweeper isn't devastating because it needs certain support to be devastating would be a reason to keep so many pokemon in OU it wouldn't be funny. In the same way, saying that Tornadus-T doesn't do much when it doesn't receive rain support (not only that, when it's in Sun and has it's STAB nerfed) isn't going far to prove it isn't broken. The argument would be more convincing if you proved it was hard to give Tornadus-T this support, but that replay didn't do that at all, since as others have said, there was no real battle for control over the weather or any other obstacles other than bad playing, so it's not even proving it's hard to keep Rain up.
EDIT: Shokwav helped explain it pretty well as well.

[Curtains]

Well I don't see anyone showing battles where tornadus-t just dominates and sweeps 5-6 pokemon at once as advertised. Show me those then I will let you criticize my battle. Don't bring anyone under 1500 either. Also more than 30 moves so it can be a "real war". I will wait. I wont post until someone post actual battle proof of tornadus dominating his counters and coming in and rocking teams. I will blacklist myself until someone does. I will wait.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

In other news, I had a scarf rachi use fucking stealth rock just to bluff a not-scarf and revenge my tornadus.

Like wtf bitch

Wasn't me, but I've made a couple sets similar to that. There's plenty of Choice sets where move #4 is almost unnecessary, and using rocks in that slot, as you found out, is a very good way to bluff the E-Belt/Chople/Sash/Whatever.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Well I don't see anyone showing battles where tornadus-t just dominates and sweeps 5-6 pokemon at once as advertised. Show me those then I will let you criticize my battle. Don't bring anyone under 1500 either. Also more than 30 moves so it can be a "real war". I will wait. I wont post until someone post actual battle proof of tornadus dominating his counters and coming in and rocking teams. I will blacklist myself until someone does. I will wait.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Od3tJjRxzQ

That's now what we're saying makes Tornadus broken. He's not like Sand Veil Garchomp who can and will set up in front of you and then proceed to sweep you while you can't do a damn thing about it. He outlasts everything you can do to bring him down and THEN comes in and sweeps once all his hurdles are down.

[kd24]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Well I don't see anyone showing battles where tornadus-t just dominates and sweeps 5-6 pokemon at once as advertised. Show me those then I will let you criticize my battle. Don't bring anyone under 1500 either. Also more than 30 moves so it can be a "real war". I will wait. I wont post until someone post actual battle proof of tornadus dominating his counters and coming in and rocking teams. I will blacklist myself until someone does. I will wait.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Od3tJjRxzQ

please for the love of god nobody post a log

[Gary2346]

He isn't TERRIBLE outside of rain like many are saying, he just has to rely on a move that misses just as much as Focus Blast. He's a very neat offensive pivot that out speeds most of OU no problem, and is one of the fastest non prankster Taunt users in OU as well. I've played with Torn-T outside of rain a couple of times over the past few days, and I've found a Rain Dance sweeping set worked wonders. Yea it sucks that you have to sacrifice Taunt or some kind of Hidden Power, but it acts similar to Kingdra because it can sweep very effectively late game, since nothing really can take a Hurricane too well.

Here's a question for the Uber supporters....why? Torn-T is one of the most predictable Pokemon in OU, because all it want to do is spam Hurricane. All of its other moves are piss weak, and it can't take advantage of Heat Wave in Rain because it becomes really weak. Superpower doesn't even take out Offensive Heatran, and fails to KO Terrakion, leaving it wide open to being OHKOed by Stone Edge. It's main use is for the blobs and T-Tar, however it can't even reliably take out the blobs. By the way, I hate the argument that if you can't counter a Pokemon, then it's automatically broken. Bull shit. Take a look at Kyurem-B. His CB Outrage can even 2HKO some variants of Ferrothorn, as well as being one of the hardest things to switch into unless you're packing a Steel type like Skarmory which has access to Roost. Yes I understand that Kyurem is much slower than Torn-T, however if your not prepared for that then it's YOUR fault. Like I mentioned earlier, Torn-T is extremely predictable. An experienced player can predict Torn-T's move set, and it can easily be baited. For example, Torn-T is completely shut down by T-Wave, and makes it very easy to take down after it's paralyzed. Since paralysis support is a staple on most offensive teams, predicting the switch into Torn-T is quite easy, making it very simple to go for the T-Wave on the switch.

The team I'm using right now has one Torn-T counter, and that's Rotom-W. Almost 100% if the time Torn-T is still alive when Rotom is dead, and I still find no problem in dealing with it. Scarfers, paralysis support, and priority is key in beating Torn-T. For Kyurem-B, it's Burn, priority, and hard hitting scarfers. After saying all this, I still have no idea why some people still insist on sending this thing to ubers. It's effective, its dangerous, and it's fast. However, without rain, being paralyzed, or up against a scarfer Torn-T becomes just an over sized chicken that's ready to be cooked and eaten by the rest of the OU tier.

[NixHex]

You can't use predictability as an argument against going uber. SV Chomp was predictable yet did its job just fine. Deoxys-S had about two "predictable," yet broken sets. Blaziken was predictable for obvious reasons. Torn-T spams a 120 bp stab move that is 100% accurate in rain which is ubiquitous, U-turns when in trouble, and has Regenerator as a nice bonus. Sometimes predictability is the sign of just how powerful and potentially broken a Pokemon is.

[blarajan]

I am currently absolutely loving Choice Scarf Gothitelle. It is a weak shit Pokemon and quite frankly its damage output is appalling. However, it can outrun up to base 121 Pokemon. Exactly.

It really sucks that you need Stealth Rock and ~one turn of Life Orb to OHKO Tornadus-T with Thunderbolt, but quite frankly it's the only effective manner of trapping I have found. Likewise, Gothitelle lives a LO Hurricane after SR with 8 Special Defense evs, which is quite useful (as that would be the turn of LO necessary!). Furthermore, it revenges Calm Mind Keldeo / Choice Specs Keldeo with Psyshock, fucks with Tentacruel, etc.

If you need a way to reliably beat Tornadus-T, actually try using that thing. It is a weak piece of shit, but it's a phenomenal weak piece of shit.

[Honey boo boo]

Originally Posted by Fat NixHex

You can't use predictability as an argument against going uber. SV Chomp was predictable yet did its job just fine. Deoxys-S had about two "predictable," yet broken sets. Blaziken was predictable for obvious reasons. Torn-T spams a 120 bp stab move that is 100% accurate in rain which is ubiquitous, U-turns when in trouble, and has Regenerator as a nice bonus. Sometimes predictability is the sign of just how powerful and potentially broken a Pokemon is.

I think that the problem with deoxys-s is that it was unpredictable. You didn't know if it was offensive or a suicide lead and sometimes that would cost you your spinner or magic bouncer. Garchomp could run about 2-3 other sets, but SV just made it easy to abuse one to absurd levels. Blaziken actually had some unpredictability because before it was banned, people started abusing special sets to nail its usual counters/checks, like slowbro and hippowdon. Predictability is actual a valid argument b/c unlike the ubers mentioned above, Tornadus-t doesn't have too many other viable methods to get past its counters or screw over your main game plan.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat blarajan

I am currently absolutely loving Choice Scarf Gothitelle. It is a weak shit Pokemon and quite frankly its damage output is appalling. However, it can outrun up to base 121 Pokemon. Exactly.

It really sucks that you need Stealth Rock and ~one turn of Life Orb to OHKO Tornadus-T with Thunderbolt, but quite frankly it's the only effective manner of trapping I have found. Likewise, Gothitelle lives a LO Hurricane after SR with 8 Special Defense evs, which is quite useful (as that would be the turn of LO necessary!). Furthermore, it revenges Calm Mind Keldeo / Choice Specs Keldeo with Psyshock, fucks with Tentacruel, etc.

If you need a way to reliably beat Tornadus-T, actually try using that thing. It is a weak piece of shit, but it's a phenomenal weak piece of shit.

That changes a lot. I honestly thought even with a Scarf, Goth would be too slow; I never bothered to check. And since U-Turn breaks traps...

Dual-Scarf is a bit of a pain, but she can run enough coverage to shore up the weak points on a team as well as taking out Tornadus, so she's probably a better fit than bulky electrics for most teams.