Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II - Page 23

TM13IceBeam · Jan 2nd, 2013, 8:01:44 AM

Having U-turn upon evolution and an EXP. gain equivalent to the speed of light, Zoroark is pretty much never actually underlevelled at some point, and his stats can also be somewhat comparable seeing as he will have the best IVs out of all your pokemon (nothing but pure luck is really capable of besting 30 IVs across the board). Zoroark is definitely a worthy choice on most teams, if you can get over his one major problem: shit moves. Zoroark has no way of winning steels ~~except rock smash~~ and having to contend with Night Slash/U-turn/Return is somewhat long :/ imo it's probably one of the most boring pokemon ever used, but the exp. gain is good and he cheeses half of the E4. Probably should be somewhere at least high. :/

Son_of_Shadoo · Jan 2nd, 2013, 9:19:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Zoroark is definitely a worthy choice on most teams, if you can get over his one major problem: shit moves. Zoroark has no way of winning steels ~~except rock smash~~

Dig. It's a thing, until Flamethrower comes along. I agree with all the rest of your points though.

TM13IceBeam · Jan 2nd, 2013, 10:30:15 AM

damn, forgot about dig, might be a legitimate option though as a protect substitute since zoroark is probably going to be able to outrun everything you fight anyway due to 30 IVs + positive nature

celever · Jan 2nd, 2013, 10:35:38 AM

Anyone want to comment on the huge Azurill post I did last page!?

SuperJOCKE · Jan 3rd, 2013, 1:36:34 PM

Ok, so I've been looking through about 12 pages and compiled a new preliminary tier list (took me a goddamn while at that). Remember that this is still far from the finalized thing. The premise is the same as it has always been:

Quote:

Anything with less than 3 votes will be in italics (examples are Tynamo in the Low Tier column and Purrloin in the Bottom Tier column). This is because one vote from one member can hardly make up for deciding a Pokémon's placement. Anything in Bold has reached 3 or more votes, and is placed in its current place on the tier list.

I've also included all that I could include from the first thread. Also, Pokémon with equal votes for two different tiers will be in a temporary Limbo placement (for example, a Pokémon with two votes for High and two votes for Mid will be placed in Limbo 2).

This is how things look now (previous list can be found here):

Top Tier

Limbo 1

High Tier

Limbo 2

Middle Tier

Limbo 3

Low Tier

Limbo 4

Bottom Tier

Here's a list of the tier changes:

...

And here's the list of all new additions:

...

As a final note, there are some things I want to adress after I looked through these pages.

First of all, we do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on another Pokémon's ability. It doesn't matter if Pokémon X does the same thing better than Pokémon Y; if both are good enough for the same tier, they will be placed as such. This as been said before, both by me, Stellar, and Mekkah.

Second, I really want this Scraggy vs. Heracross vs. Sandile discussion to stop. It's equally bad as the Azurill one, and doesn't help me at all. So, now I want clear answers to which tier these three should be in. Should Scraggy stay Top Tier or move down to High? Should Heracross stay in High Tier or move up to Top? Should Sandile stay in High Tier or move up to Top?

Short and concise arguments are want I want. Arguments that compare these three with each other or with other Pokémon will not be taken into account, because as I said, we do not tier based on other Pokémon. If no one responds to this in about three days, I will leave their placements unchanged.

And last of all, regarding the 5 first Pokémon I put out for immediate tiering placements, it currently looks like this:

Golurk to Low Tier
Sawk to Mid Tier
Throh to Low Tier
Druddigon to Low Tier
Zweilous to Low Tier

I'm gonna wait one or two more days for you to discuss these five, and then I'll add them to the OP accordingly.

That's all I had to say for now. Keep the discussion going.

Antihaxxer · Jan 3rd, 2013, 2:39:42 PM

First, Great JOB !

I agree on almost everything so I won't complain :)

Is there some pokemon not tiered ? :)

SuperJOCKE · Jan 3rd, 2013, 4:01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

First, Great JOB !

I agree on almost everything so I won't complain :)

Is there some pokemon not tiered ? :)

Here's a list of them all. These lack any suggestion for a tier placement (or none that I can properly place from):

...

Golurk, Sawk, Throh, Druddigon, and Zweilous, as you know, are being discussed.

Hope everything is correct on that list. Did most of it out of memory, with some cross checking, so if I missed a Pokémon, please do tell.

Also, don't hesitate to post if you have used any of these Pokémon. Especially the ones that are being discussed at the moment.

atsync · Jan 3rd, 2013, 4:31:54 PM

I did an Onix submission a few pages back that I think was missed.

Quote:

Onix (evolve into Steelix): - Mid Tier
Availability: Onix is found in the Relic Path, accessible via Castelia Sewers. It’s somewhat rare (5%), although it is more common in ground shaking spots (20%).
Stats: Onix is well known for its bad stat distribution. 160 Defence seems impressive but 35 HP lets it down somewhat. 70 Speed makes it fast for a Rock type, for whatever that’s worth. Unfortunately Onix has a terrible 45 Attack, and it can’t take unresisted special hits for very long with just 35 HP and 45 Special Defence. Thankfully, Onix improves significantly after evolution. It loses a ton of Speed but becomes more durable and can inflict better damage (although 85 Attack is still a bit low).
Typing: Rock/Ground has its ups and downs, although it isn’t great overall. 4x Water and Grass weaknesses are horrible, and Fighting, Ground, Steel and Ice weaknesses on top of that don’t do it any favours. Still, Onix carries some useful resistances (Fire, Flying, Poison and Rock) along with an Electric immunity, which may be helpful for some teams. Upon evolving to Steelix, it becomes Steel/Ground, which is a much better typing. Steelix gains a ton of resistances and sheds a few weaknesses, all in exchange for its Fire resistance (now a weakness). It’s more than a fair trade!
Movepool: The thing that saves Onix from being truly worthless before evolution is its early access to STAB Dig, which partially makes up for its low Attack. It also gets Strength and STAB Rock attacks, providing it with good coverage. Onix and Steelix actually have wide movepools. Beyond STABs, you get Crunch, Double-Edge and the elemental fangs. Strong coverage really helps make up for the middling Attack stats that Onix and Steelix carry.
Major Battles: Ultimately it depends on when you evolve it. It should be said that Onix may well be the best counter to Elesa in the game because it resists all of her attacks besides Emolga’s weak Pursuit, and it has super-effective STABs for her whole team (and Smack Down can even be used to make Emolga vulnerable to Dig). Onix does less well against Burgh (Steelix is an ok choice for Burgh though) and Clay. Onix should be evolved before Skyla and Steelix can beat Swoobat and Skarmory one-on-one. Aside from Flygon, it does well against Drayden too. It should skip Marlon obviously. Its performance against the elite 4 is good. Aside from Marshall, it can contribute in all battles as long as you keep it away from the wrong opponents. If it has Sturdy, it can also be a decent check to Iris’s Focus Sash + Dragon Dance Haxorus.
Additional Comments: You have the option of evolving Onix right away (backtrack to Virbank Complex and use Magnet Pull to fish out Magnemites until you get one holding Metal Coat) or waiting until Chargestone Cave. Onix/Steelix can be a good choice either way, so don’t worry if you don’t want to wait around to evolve it as soon as possible. It is a good idea to give Onix Eviolite while it's unevolved to buff up its defences. If you are unable to evolve it into Steelix... you probably shouldn't be using it! Sturdy is probably the better of its abilities. Rock Head is only good if you want to run Double-Edge, and Sturdy is more useful overall.

As I said when I posted it, I reckon Onix will need separate entries depending on whether you can evolve or not. Steelix was useful, but using an unevolved Onix for the whole game sounds awful!

SuperJOCKE · Jan 3rd, 2013, 4:52:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat atsync

I did an Onix submission a few pages back that I think was missed.
As I said when I posted it, I reckon Onix will need separate entries depending on whether you can evolve or not. Steelix was useful, but using an unevolved Onix for the whole game sounds awful!

Don't worry, I didn't miss it. I am keeping it in consideration, it's just that it's currently undecided how we will handle Pokémon that evolve by trading and their evolutions. I'll let you all know earliest tomorow so I can think it over some more.

Antihaxxer · Jan 3rd, 2013, 5:21:12 PM

Thanks SuperJOCKE ! I didn't use these pokemon but :

- The Elemental Monkeys are too rare in Lostlorn forest (with a good nature / IV / rustling grass) to be used effectively, I think Low tier
- Audino is of course a Bottom Tier
- Shelmet / Karrablast is the same question which exists for Onix : Bottom tier without trade evolution. Better tier if able to trade
- I've seen some posts on Braviary [White Version 2] (Route 4 stationary) and he was High Tier IIRC : Powerful, good movepool, Fly ... Early Return abused. Too bad you can't use him for Burgh, and Elesa is not his best match up

celever · Jan 3rd, 2013, 5:48:38 PM

Patrat - Bottom tier
Availability Right at the start, but it doesn't help.
Stats Lowest of any Unova pokemon, and one of the lowest ever. Has decent 55 attack for a pokemon right at the beginning, but still terrible in B2/W2 due to Lillipup and Riolu.
Typing It's normal type. Weak to an elite four member and while immune to another can't use STAB.
Movepool It's best attack is crunch, which it gets at level 16. Crunch is good for that point in the game, but it can't be used against Roxie's whirlipede or Burgh's anything, and it's beginning to lose worth by Elesa. It gets some pretty nifty normal attacks later on but that's about it. It can make use of dig and retaliate for TMs. Watchog gets low kick, but you have to use a precious heart scale for it. Confuse ray is ok as well.
Major battles: Terrible against Cheren due to lacking stats and moves, same news for Roxie except you might be able to crunch the koffing for decent damage. If you were desperate you could try to stall Burgh's swadloon with confuse ray and hypnosis while dealing super fangs, but that's as good as he gets for Burgh. Same story with Elesa, unless you want to go a little overboard and get hyper fang. By that point you could teach it dig, but if Emolga is not down already then dig will be worthless. With Clay it's the same again, and actually it's pretty much the same until the elite four. It will fail against Marshall, could actually be handy against Caitlin and Shauntal due to crunch and especially Shauntal because of normal typing. Could do well on Grimsley's bisharp if you actually taught it low kick.

Lucchini · Jan 3rd, 2013, 6:04:40 PM

Bottom tier is downright sandbagging, I think. Early availability, evolution at L20 aren't an advantage anymore? Why is it in need of Hyper Fang when it's around for long enough to benefit from high friendship and powerful Return damage? It can be tutored the three elemental punches, Aqua Tail, Seed Bomb, so its movepool is large enough.

SimicCombine · Jan 3rd, 2013, 6:24:40 PM

I'd do Heracross for Limbo 1 at worst. It can be a pain to catch (although you can use the repel trick to do it in ~5 minutes), but it's fast, hits hard, and has pretty good defensive typing for in-game. All the psychics are slow and die to Bug Bite/Megahorn, while flying types are the only thing you really need to switch out of. Brick Break is fine until Close Combat arrives, and is still a great way to KO fighting-weak Pokemon or nab 2HKOs if you don't want Close Combat's stat drops. If you teach it Shadow Claw, you have pretty good super-effective coverage, so it's a great candidate for Expert Belt.

For Gym leaders, it's pretty good against Clay, worthless against Skyla (but you should have something which handles her easily), fine against Drayden, and can hit Marlon's Pokemon either for double damage or, in the case of Wailord, just deal a ton of damage. It has great coverage in the Elite Four and worst case can fire off a Close Combat for a near KO on the way out.

An annoying weakness to the random Arial Aces flying around hurts, but Heracross has the power and enough speed to easily deal with most threats.

Layell · Jan 3rd, 2013, 6:50:08 PM

Sorry Simic but the limbo tiers are mostly so we can put them in the actual tier lists.

In terms of Patrat I used him a bit early game, the BW one had him at mid and we didn't have him that much higher. I honestly can't seem Patrat much higher than that although while Return was useful I still dropped him once I got a more powerful members.

Diatom · Jan 3rd, 2013, 8:00:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SuperJOCKE

Should Scraggy stay Top Tier or move down to High?

I think Scraggy should be moved down to high tier. Believe me, I like Scraggy, but it just can't beat some of the more important bosses due to its low speed. For example, it can't beat Shauntal's Chandelure, as it gets outsped and OHKOd. It also just doesn't hit hard enough before a moxie boost. For example, it can't OHKO Cofagrigus without a moxie boost, and since both Ghetsis and Shauntal lead with it, he can't get one. Also, since you need to run a wide lens for HJK, you can't run a more useful item such as BlackGlasses. Level 39 is also somewhat high for an evolution level; you may not be able to have a Scrafty before Lentimas, which is pretty bad, considering that that is about when NPCs switch to fully evolved pokemon. Scraggy/Scrafty just doesn't have the immediate power necessary with that dismal speed stat to cut it in top tier, and although it can be very dangerous once it gets going, it can be tough to get it that first boost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SuperJOCKE

Should Heracross stay in High Tier or move up to Top?

Heracross, I believe should be top tier, without a doubt. STAB Close Combat off 125 attack will hurt anything that doesn't resist it, and getting it at level 34 is just insane; it pretty much OHKOs anything that doesn't resist it until the opponents start using fully-evolved pokemon around Lentimas, and even then it will severely dent nearly everything. Not having a good bug move for a long time is somewhat disappointing, but you don't really need one once you have Close Combat. Heracross also has a pretty good defensive typing for in-game, resisting the common fighting, bug, and ground-type moves. The flying-type weakness is a bit of a problem, but that's what teammates are for, and if you're feeling daring, you can try to take them out with Rock Slide. Heracross for top.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat SuperJOCKE

Should Sandile stay in High Tier or move up to Top?

This is a really tough one. On one hand, this thing has one of the best offensive typings in the game, and has the speed and power to back it up. On the other, his defensive typing is downright terrible, with the only notable resist being psychic. However, I believe that Sandile's pros outweigh its one notable con enough for it to be moved top tier. His speed is great for in-game, and is enough to outspeed everything except stuff like Accelgor given that NPCs don't have any EVs. Sandile has enough attack to hit very hard right off the bat, and after one moxie boost, this thing can OHKO practically everything with the correct move. Ground/Dark/Rock coverage is some of the best in the game, and can hit a ton of things super effectively. This thing also destroys every gym leader in the game with the exception of Marlon, although Clay may be a bit of a problem due to his intimidate Krokorok; his typing is also fantastic for Team Plasma and the E4 (except Marshal, but you can't have everything). Fortunately, his defensive typing can be somewhat ignored due to the fact that every move you should be using except Rock Slide has 100% accuracy, so you shouldn't have to take many hits. Top tier.

Oh, and a couple of pages back, I said Riolu should be Mid-tier. Well, scratch my argument there. I ran a calc and it turns out that mine had 0 IVs in both defense and special attack, and single-digit IVs in all other stats, along with an attack-reducing nature. So yeah, talk about unlucky...

celever · Jan 4th, 2013, 5:02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

Bottom tier is downright sandbagging, I think. Early availability, evolution at L20 aren't an advantage anymore? Why is it in need of Hyper Fang when it's around for long enough to benefit from high friendship and powerful Return damage? It can be tutored the three elemental punches, Aqua Tail, Seed Bomb, so its movepool is large enough.

Why is Dunsparce bottom then? He has a huge move-pool, a higher BST than Patrat, and only 5 lower than Watchog. He's available just after the first badge (I believe that is when shaking grass starts to happen, definitely not after the second though) so he's definitely around long enough for a powerful return STAB, only with a better set of moves along with it. Do you really want to tutor the elemental punches for 10 shards on your worst pokemon on the team!? And he would be the worst pokemon on your team, I once tried a sunkern and patrat duo, but I ended up giving up somewhere around the second badge because Patrat (I actually grinded and evolved him before Roxie, he still failed pretty bad) whereas, at least compared to the efforts of Patrat, Sunkern seemed incredible against Patrat - except against Roxie, he's at a type disadvantage!

Lucchini · Jan 4th, 2013, 11:43:57 AM

Guess whom else Dunsparce beats in BST? Darumaka and Magnemite. I hope you understand the implication here.

BST shouldn't even be that much of a criterion of evaluating a Pokemon, especially because some stats are a whole lot more important than others, namely offence and speed. Dunsparce has 70 attack and 45 speed compared to Watchdog's 85 attack and 77 speed. Dunsparce's not outspeeding much, whereas Watchdog will go first very often, especially if you catch a Patrat at your earliest convenience.

The 10 Red Shards that could be used for tutoring a punch are given to you free, and if we speak about competition for the elemental punches, there's not exactly a whole lot, especially when Rock Slide nails many of the same weaknesses Ice/Thunderpunch do, and most of the elemental punch candidates do in fact learn Rock Slide. If we're really training a Watchdog, there's little reason not to invest those shards into him (Signal Beam, Bug Bite and Seed Bomb, which also cost red shards, are largely situational and are useful on like 1-2 Pokemon each, who may not even be in play).

Just because your run stopped at Roxie doesn't mean Watchdog fails at the whole game - it's just common sense that a physical attacker won't work well against Whirlipede, and this applies to every single earlygame physical hitters (besides one with a super-effective STAB, who are also probably only 2-3HKOing there). There are plenty of circumstances where outspeeding and hitting with a powerful STAB Return is pretty damn effective.

And I honestly don't see how Sunkern would perform better than Patrat, unless you deprived Patrat of the Frustration/Return TMs (which makes no sense as you can neither miss them nor do they disappear after you use them on something else) and employed some sort of bizarre stall strategy involving Ingrain, HP draining and status moves. Clearly Patrat isn't as 'good' (Sunkern lacks the stats to be half-decent at it too) at stalling but there's no reason why he should be used in that role in the first place.

It's no Stoutland, but it's still a pretty fast normal-type that hits pretty hard; I don't see why you'd have trouble using it earlygame of all possible periods when only about 1 Pokemon is really any better than your starter.

celever · Jan 4th, 2013, 3:20:12 PM

Well Sunkern is currently in Limo 4, which means that apparently it is better than everyone in the bottom tier, which should include patrat! Ok, so Watchog has return, say you actually teach it ice punch or aqua tail, then yes that is alright coverage. However, it can't even combat it's own weakness! By the way, you said the 10 red shards are given to you for free, but you want to use them on something else! Competition for the elemental punches, azumarill and ampharos are great with ice punch, and since you only get 10 red shards for free, getting any other move doesn't let you get a punch, and there are lots of candidates at that point which you are far better off, and off the top of my head I can tell you that signal beam magnemite/ton, Low kick riolu, or elemental punches riolu actually, Low kick Krokorok, low kick Zoroark. I mean, if you really want to then I suppose Watchog could work (so could quite a lot of the bottom tier, like castform, purrloin or dunsparce) so that is why he is bottom. By the way, you said that magnemite and darumaka have lower BST than dunsparce. They can still evolve, they are actually stage 1 pokemon, watchog, the fully evolved patrat, is only 5 more.

**Arcticblast** · Jan 4th, 2013, 3:35:52 PM

Shards can be obtained through a Funfest mission. I don't know the conditions to unlock said mission, but it's an easy way to get shards.

Lucchini · Jan 4th, 2013, 3:40:07 PM

What I'm saying is that Dunsparce has better BST than anything at that point because they're yet to evolve. BST is a pretty trivial factor to account into our tiering because it's the allocation of the stats and not the sum that matters. e.g. Scrafty an Darmanitan don't exactly have the highest BST, but they have the stats that really matter and help them function really well, and their complete lack of any special attack isn't a problem when they're fine without (yet their BST suffers from it).

Sunkern is better than Bottom because after its evolution it is a slow, defenceless (but nevertheless) grass-type nuke, one that actually learns its nuke faster than Petilil and Roselia. Its other shortcomings should keep it out of going higher than Mid (at best), though, and Roselia and Petilil are just so much better (and the game designers were wise enough to leave out the Budew stage entirely). That's not what you said at all, since you were insinuating Sunkern's earlygame is somehow better than that of a Pokemon with better bases and a normal-type STAB.

Azumarill and Ampharos aren't necessarily assumed to be play, and even if you go through the whole list of potential candidates you probably won't find more than a dozen (most have superior options via TM without requiring any shards). I still don't see why you would say that they're top priority for these moves compared to Watchdog. Don't you choose the one Pokemon who makes the best use of them, or who is having a hard time without them? 75 BP isn't much, but it's better than an elemental fang (Stoutland's alternative, though it's still clearly superior to Watchdog in most ways).

Also, using Elekid is good indication that Low Kick is mostly a horrid move. Weak early on and even the heaviest Pokemon are either immune to it (Golurk) or need more than one to take out anyway (sturdy rocks). Only useful against Cryogonal I believe and not worth the moveslot (let alone the investment of your 10 red shards unless you have absolutely no other use for them), since you can just KO that one with any decent physical STAB.

SimicCombine · Jan 4th, 2013, 10:15:28 PM

If limbo doesn't count, top tier for Heracross. The Flying weakness is pretty much the only con, and it's not that hard to pick up a good steel or electric to give you an easy switch.

TM13IceBeam · Jan 4th, 2013, 11:28:30 PM

Low Kick is terrible in-game, and I'm sure you probably experienced this beforehand with BW1 Grass Knot. Signal Beam Magnezone is honestly unnecessary and E-Punch Lucario is not a priority (especially when his main job midgame is Return nuking)

Heracross imo can be compared to DPP Staraptor: it suddenly gets a "wtfisthis" move stupidly early, and basically uses said move to nuke everything. This guy should be top tier.

The Cicada · Jan 5th, 2013, 11:02:41 AM

Agreeing with scrafty for high and heraboss for top. Cant speak on Sandile tho.

SuperJOCKE · Jan 6th, 2013, 7:36:50 AM

Ok, time to wrap some things together.

First of all, I've decided that we are going to make seprate entries for Pokémon who evolve by trading if the tiering placement is different. For example, if Elekid that stops at Electabuzz is considered High Tier and Elekid that fully evolves into Electivire through trading is also considered High Tier, they will be combined into one entry. The opposite would apply to, for example, Shelmet and Accelgor. Accelgor is clearly better than Shelmet.

So, when it comes to your suggestion for Onix atsync, I think you should reconsider its placement a bit. Even if it is for Onix with a trade to Steelix. Metal Coat can't be found until after the main game, where it is available in Clay Tunnel and the Black City shop. The only way to get Metal Coat within the main game is to find a Magnemite holding it, and that's only a 5% chance. I haven't used Onix or Steelix myself, but based on that fact alone, and that Onix is rare in itself, I would see it as a Low Tier Pokémon at best. Bottom if it's w/o trading.

Then we come to the controversial Scrafty and Heracross discussion that's been going on. From what I've been reading, and what you guys have said the past two days, I'm going to move Heracross to Top Tier and move down Scraggy to High Tier. That's the best conclusion get out of it. Of course you're free to argue against this, but that's what's going to happen for now. Sandile will be left untouched unless someone makes a case for it later on.

And finally, the 5 Pokémon I put up for immediate tiering placement are going to be placed in the following tiers, as there haven't been any more posts against them:

Golurk to Low Tier
Sawk to Middle Tier
Throh to Low Tier
Druddigon to Low Tier
Zweilous to Low Tier

That was all I wanted to say for now. I'll be bringing up more Pokémon like the ones above, so look out for that. As you were.

EDIT:

The OP as been updated accordingly.

Japitor · Jan 6th, 2013, 2:43:43 PM

Solosis: - Low Tier [White 2]
Availability: Solosis becomes available just before the fourth gym.
Stats: Solosis starts with a base 105 Special Attack and ends with 125. It also has base 110 HP as a Reuniclus. These two great traits are soured by a speed stat which will assure you never outrun anything and defenses which get it killed often.
It doesn't get base 110 HP until it evolves at level 41, and its defenses are equally bad before its final evolution.
Typing: Psychic is not a good type for this game. It resists itself and Fighting, but that comes with weaknesses to Bug, Dark, and Ghost.
More importantly, it only has super-effective STAB against Koffing, Grimer, Trubbish, and whatever odd fighting types you encounter.
Movepool: Solosis learns a high-powered Psychic move at level 25, which is nice until you realize that Psyshock only works well against Pokemon with low Defense and high Special Defense. That means Solosis/Duosion is only really strong against Garbodor. Compounding that, it learns Psychic at level 39 if you choose to evolve it, 37 if you don't, so you're likely to get the TM for it before Duosion naturally learns it.
It also gets Energy Ball through TM. This could be nice except that it comes after Clay, rendering your Solosis/Duosion useless against all of Clay's Pokemon. Shadow Ball through TM after Gym 6 is also painful, but at least it can be used against the E4. It can get Thunder late (Lacunosa Town), but it never gets the more reliable Thunderbolt. Also, Thunder is redundant alongside Energy Ball.
Major Battles:
Colress: Useless.
Plasma Grunts: Solosis is okay here.
Elesa: Not bad, but not good either. On the bright side, it doesn't mind paralysis too much.
Clay: Useless.
Skyla: Only Swanna doesn't resist its moves.
Drayden: It should be a Reuniclus by now, but it's still not that great against his dragons.
Marlon: Energy Ball is nice against Carracosta and Wailord, but Jellicent will give you trouble.
Kyurem: Again usable, but it doesn't stand out.
Ghetsis: Reuniclus is, as always, outsped by everything. With Psychic, Shadow Ball, and Energy Ball, it can hit super-effective on three of Ghetsis' Pokemon. However, two of those Pokemon have Ghost-type moves to deal with it.
Shauntal: Don't send this slow Psychic against Ghosts.
Marshal: Reuniclus hits super-effectively, but Sawk and Mienshao have super-effective moves to hit it.
Grimsley: Don't. Just don't.
Caitlin: While Reuniclus can hit super-effectively, Sigilyph and Gothitelle have Shadow Ball.
Iris: Reuniclus can only hit Lapras super-effectively if it has Thunder. If it doesn't, then it can't hit anyone for SE damage. Also, it dies to Hydreigon and Haxorus without doubt.
Additional Comments: I picked Solosis up because I thought I wanted a Psychic-type, but it could never hit anything first, died to random Pokemon that had a Bug-, Dark-, or Ghost-type move, and couldn't run away from wild Pokemon. Overall frustrating experience.

Jan 2nd, 2013, 8:01:44 AM	#551
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,246 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	Having U-turn upon evolution and an EXP. gain equivalent to the speed of light, Zoroark is pretty much never actually underlevelled at some point, and his stats can also be somewhat comparable seeing as he will have the best IVs out of all your pokemon (nothing but pure luck is really capable of besting 30 IVs across the board). Zoroark is definitely a worthy choice on most teams, if you can get over his one major problem: shit moves. Zoroark has no way of winning steels ~~except rock smash~~ and having to contend with Night Slash/U-turn/Return is somewhat long :/ imo it's probably one of the most boring pokemon ever used, but the exp. gain is good and he cheeses half of the E4. Probably should be somewhere at least high. :/ __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jan 2nd, 2013, 10:30:15 AM	#553
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,246 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	damn, forgot about dig, might be a legitimate option though as a protect substitute since zoroark is probably going to be able to outrun everything you fight anyway due to 30 IVs + positive nature __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jan 3rd, 2013, 6:50:08 PM	#564
Layell Alas poor Bluth! Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 1,828 I knew him, Carl Weathers, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.	Sorry Simic but the limbo tiers are mostly so we can put them in the actual tier lists. In terms of Patrat I used him a bit early game, the BW one had him at mid and we didn't have him that much higher. I honestly can't seem Patrat much higher than that although while Return was useful I still dropped him once I got a more powerful members. __________________ #Orangeislands movie nights: The best way to watch the Pokemon films and specials! * Moderator on smogon's minecraft server * Goodnight Sweet Prince PS/Smogon April Fools 2013: file, credits, and server mode

Jan 4th, 2013, 3:35:52 PM	#569
Arcticblast is going goat Moderator Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,976 #serperiors Mentor	Shards can be obtained through a Funfest mission. I don't know the conditions to unlock said mission, but it's an easy way to get shards. __________________ New to Smogon? Afraid to jump into discussion? Introduce yourself! ------------------- Fail Cup \| Scramble! \| RMTs: Blistering Sands (BH) Night Stall (OU) \| ARcTicblast \| Demon Spawn \| signature art by Zracknel additional credit to Pocket and AccidentalGreed

Jan 4th, 2013, 11:28:30 PM	#572
TM13IceBeam Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 3,246 stuck in the past, locked in the present, banned from the future	Low Kick is terrible in-game, and I'm sure you probably experienced this beforehand with BW1 Grass Knot. Signal Beam Magnezone is honestly unnecessary and E-Punch Lucario is not a priority (especially when his main job midgame is Return nuking) Heracross imo can be compared to DPP Staraptor: it suddenly gets a "wtfisthis" move stupidly early, and basically uses said move to nuke everything. This guy should be top tier. __________________ Start of turn 24 Natu used Grass Knot! It's super effective! The foe's Corsola lost 31% of its health! Riolu ftw Amazing Rotom-S is amazing KAKUNA i'm dead, don't bother contacting me

Jan 2nd, 2013, 10:35:38 AM	#554
celever Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,088 I HATE COD	Anyone want to comment on the huge Azurill post I did last page!?

Jan 3rd, 2013, 2:39:42 PM	#556
Antihaxxer Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 336	First, Great JOB ! I agree on almost everything so I won't complain :) Is there some pokemon not tiered ? :)

Jan 3rd, 2013, 5:21:12 PM	#560
Antihaxxer Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 336	Thanks SuperJOCKE ! I didn't use these pokemon but : - The Elemental Monkeys are too rare in Lostlorn forest (with a good nature / IV / rustling grass) to be used effectively, I think Low tier - Audino is of course a Bottom Tier - Shelmet / Karrablast is the same question which exists for Onix : Bottom tier without trade evolution. Better tier if able to trade - I've seen some posts on Braviary [White Version 2] (Route 4 stationary) and he was High Tier IIRC : Powerful, good movepool, Fly ... Early Return abused. Too bad you can't use him for Burgh, and Elesa is not his best match up

Jan 3rd, 2013, 5:48:38 PM	#561
celever Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,088 I HATE COD	Patrat - Bottom tier Availability Right at the start, but it doesn't help. Stats Lowest of any Unova pokemon, and one of the lowest ever. Has decent 55 attack for a pokemon right at the beginning, but still terrible in B2/W2 due to Lillipup and Riolu. Typing It's normal type. Weak to an elite four member and while immune to another can't use STAB. Movepool It's best attack is crunch, which it gets at level 16. Crunch is good for that point in the game, but it can't be used against Roxie's whirlipede or Burgh's anything, and it's beginning to lose worth by Elesa. It gets some pretty nifty normal attacks later on but that's about it. It can make use of dig and retaliate for TMs. Watchog gets low kick, but you have to use a precious heart scale for it. Confuse ray is ok as well. Major battles: Terrible against Cheren due to lacking stats and moves, same news for Roxie except you might be able to crunch the koffing for decent damage. If you were desperate you could try to stall Burgh's swadloon with confuse ray and hypnosis while dealing super fangs, but that's as good as he gets for Burgh. Same story with Elesa, unless you want to go a little overboard and get hyper fang. By that point you could teach it dig, but if Emolga is not down already then dig will be worthless. With Clay it's the same again, and actually it's pretty much the same until the elite four. It will fail against Marshall, could actually be handy against Caitlin and Shauntal due to crunch and especially Shauntal because of normal typing. Could do well on Grimsley's bisharp if you actually taught it low kick.

Jan 3rd, 2013, 6:04:40 PM	#562
Lucchini Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 182	Bottom tier is downright sandbagging, I think. Early availability, evolution at L20 aren't an advantage anymore? Why is it in need of Hyper Fang when it's around for long enough to benefit from high friendship and powerful Return damage? It can be tutored the three elemental punches, Aqua Tail, Seed Bomb, so its movepool is large enough.

Jan 3rd, 2013, 6:24:40 PM	#563
SimicCombine Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46	I'd do Heracross for Limbo 1 at worst. It can be a pain to catch (although you can use the repel trick to do it in ~5 minutes), but it's fast, hits hard, and has pretty good defensive typing for in-game. All the psychics are slow and die to Bug Bite/Megahorn, while flying types are the only thing you really need to switch out of. Brick Break is fine until Close Combat arrives, and is still a great way to KO fighting-weak Pokemon or nab 2HKOs if you don't want Close Combat's stat drops. If you teach it Shadow Claw, you have pretty good super-effective coverage, so it's a great candidate for Expert Belt. For Gym leaders, it's pretty good against Clay, worthless against Skyla (but you should have something which handles her easily), fine against Drayden, and can hit Marlon's Pokemon either for double damage or, in the case of Wailord, just deal a ton of damage. It has great coverage in the Elite Four and worst case can fire off a Close Combat for a near KO on the way out. An annoying weakness to the random Arial Aces flying around hurts, but Heracross has the power and enough speed to easily deal with most threats.

Jan 4th, 2013, 11:43:57 AM	#567
Lucchini Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 182	Guess whom else Dunsparce beats in BST? Darumaka and Magnemite. I hope you understand the implication here. BST shouldn't even be that much of a criterion of evaluating a Pokemon, especially because some stats are a whole lot more important than others, namely offence and speed. Dunsparce has 70 attack and 45 speed compared to Watchdog's 85 attack and 77 speed. Dunsparce's not outspeeding much, whereas Watchdog will go first very often, especially if you catch a Patrat at your earliest convenience. The 10 Red Shards that could be used for tutoring a punch are given to you free, and if we speak about competition for the elemental punches, there's not exactly a whole lot, especially when Rock Slide nails many of the same weaknesses Ice/Thunderpunch do, and most of the elemental punch candidates do in fact learn Rock Slide. If we're really training a Watchdog, there's little reason not to invest those shards into him (Signal Beam, Bug Bite and Seed Bomb, which also cost red shards, are largely situational and are useful on like 1-2 Pokemon each, who may not even be in play). Just because your run stopped at Roxie doesn't mean Watchdog fails at the whole game - it's just common sense that a physical attacker won't work well against Whirlipede, and this applies to every single earlygame physical hitters (besides one with a super-effective STAB, who are also probably only 2-3HKOing there). There are plenty of circumstances where outspeeding and hitting with a powerful STAB Return is pretty damn effective. And I honestly don't see how Sunkern would perform better than Patrat, unless you deprived Patrat of the Frustration/Return TMs (which makes no sense as you can neither miss them nor do they disappear after you use them on something else) and employed some sort of bizarre stall strategy involving Ingrain, HP draining and status moves. Clearly Patrat isn't as 'good' (Sunkern lacks the stats to be half-decent at it too) at stalling but there's no reason why he should be used in that role in the first place. It's no Stoutland, but it's still a pretty fast normal-type that hits pretty hard; I don't see why you'd have trouble using it earlygame of all possible periods when only about 1 Pokemon is really any better than your starter.

Jan 4th, 2013, 3:20:12 PM	#568
celever Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,088 I HATE COD	Well Sunkern is currently in Limo 4, which means that apparently it is better than everyone in the bottom tier, which should include patrat! Ok, so Watchog has return, say you actually teach it ice punch or aqua tail, then yes that is alright coverage. However, it can't even combat it's own weakness! By the way, you said the 10 red shards are given to you for free, but you want to use them on something else! Competition for the elemental punches, azumarill and ampharos are great with ice punch, and since you only get 10 red shards for free, getting any other move doesn't let you get a punch, and there are lots of candidates at that point which you are far better off, and off the top of my head I can tell you that signal beam magnemite/ton, Low kick riolu, or elemental punches riolu actually, Low kick Krokorok, low kick Zoroark. I mean, if you really want to then I suppose Watchog could work (so could quite a lot of the bottom tier, like castform, purrloin or dunsparce) so that is why he is bottom. By the way, you said that magnemite and darumaka have lower BST than dunsparce. They can still evolve, they are actually stage 1 pokemon, watchog, the fully evolved patrat, is only 5 more.

Jan 4th, 2013, 3:40:07 PM	#570
Lucchini Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 182	What I'm saying is that Dunsparce has better BST than anything at that point because they're yet to evolve. BST is a pretty trivial factor to account into our tiering because it's the allocation of the stats and not the sum that matters. e.g. Scrafty an Darmanitan don't exactly have the highest BST, but they have the stats that really matter and help them function really well, and their complete lack of any special attack isn't a problem when they're fine without (yet their BST suffers from it). Sunkern is better than Bottom because after its evolution it is a slow, defenceless (but nevertheless) grass-type nuke, one that actually learns its nuke faster than Petilil and Roselia. Its other shortcomings should keep it out of going higher than Mid (at best), though, and Roselia and Petilil are just so much better (and the game designers were wise enough to leave out the Budew stage entirely). That's not what you said at all, since you were insinuating Sunkern's earlygame is somehow better than that of a Pokemon with better bases and a normal-type STAB. Azumarill and Ampharos aren't necessarily assumed to be play, and even if you go through the whole list of potential candidates you probably won't find more than a dozen (most have superior options via TM without requiring any shards). I still don't see why you would say that they're top priority for these moves compared to Watchdog. Don't you choose the one Pokemon who makes the best use of them, or who is having a hard time without them? 75 BP isn't much, but it's better than an elemental fang (Stoutland's alternative, though it's still clearly superior to Watchdog in most ways). Also, using Elekid is good indication that Low Kick is mostly a horrid move. Weak early on and even the heaviest Pokemon are either immune to it (Golurk) or need more than one to take out anyway (sturdy rocks). Only useful against Cryogonal I believe and not worth the moveslot (let alone the investment of your 10 red shards unless you have absolutely no other use for them), since you can just KO that one with any decent physical STAB.

Jan 4th, 2013, 10:15:28 PM	#571
SimicCombine Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 46	If limbo doesn't count, top tier for Heracross. The Flying weakness is pretty much the only con, and it's not that hard to pick up a good steel or electric to give you an easy switch.

Jan 5th, 2013, 11:02:41 AM	#573
The Cicada Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 939 Madrigal	Agreeing with scrafty for high and heraboss for top. Cant speak on Sandile tho.

Jan 6th, 2013, 7:36:50 AM	#574
SuperJOCKE Low Tier Warrior! Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 1,994 Location: Sweden Mentor	Ok, time to wrap some things together. First of all, I've decided that we are going to make seprate entries for Pokémon who evolve by trading if the tiering placement is different. For example, if Elekid that stops at Electabuzz is considered High Tier and Elekid that fully evolves into Electivire through trading is also considered High Tier, they will be combined into one entry. The opposite would apply to, for example, Shelmet and Accelgor. Accelgor is clearly better than Shelmet. So, when it comes to your suggestion for Onix atsync, I think you should reconsider its placement a bit. Even if it is for Onix with a trade to Steelix. Metal Coat can't be found until after the main game, where it is available in Clay Tunnel and the Black City shop. The only way to get Metal Coat within the main game is to find a Magnemite holding it, and that's only a 5% chance. I haven't used Onix or Steelix myself, but based on that fact alone, and that Onix is rare in itself, I would see it as a Low Tier Pokémon at best. Bottom if it's w/o trading. Then we come to the controversial Scrafty and Heracross discussion that's been going on. From what I've been reading, and what you guys have said the past two days, I'm going to move Heracross to Top Tier and move down Scraggy to High Tier. That's the best conclusion get out of it. Of course you're free to argue against this, but that's what's going to happen for now. Sandile will be left untouched unless someone makes a case for it later on. And finally, the 5 Pokémon I put up for immediate tiering placement are going to be placed in the following tiers, as there haven't been any more posts against them: Golurk to Low Tier Sawk to Middle Tier Throh to Low Tier Druddigon to Low Tier Zweilous to Low Tier That was all I wanted to say for now. I'll be bringing up more Pokémon like the ones above, so look out for that. As you were. EDIT: The OP as been updated accordingly. __________________ Last edited by SuperJOCKE; Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:51:52 AM.

Jan 6th, 2013, 2:43:43 PM	#575
Japitor Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 2	Solosis: - Low Tier [White 2] Availability: Solosis becomes available just before the fourth gym. Stats: Solosis starts with a base 105 Special Attack and ends with 125. It also has base 110 HP as a Reuniclus. These two great traits are soured by a speed stat which will assure you never outrun anything and defenses which get it killed often. It doesn't get base 110 HP until it evolves at level 41, and its defenses are equally bad before its final evolution. Typing: Psychic is not a good type for this game. It resists itself and Fighting, but that comes with weaknesses to Bug, Dark, and Ghost. More importantly, it only has super-effective STAB against Koffing, Grimer, Trubbish, and whatever odd fighting types you encounter. Movepool: Solosis learns a high-powered Psychic move at level 25, which is nice until you realize that Psyshock only works well against Pokemon with low Defense and high Special Defense. That means Solosis/Duosion is only really strong against Garbodor. Compounding that, it learns Psychic at level 39 if you choose to evolve it, 37 if you don't, so you're likely to get the TM for it before Duosion naturally learns it. It also gets Energy Ball through TM. This could be nice except that it comes after Clay, rendering your Solosis/Duosion useless against all of Clay's Pokemon. Shadow Ball through TM after Gym 6 is also painful, but at least it can be used against the E4. It can get Thunder late (Lacunosa Town), but it never gets the more reliable Thunderbolt. Also, Thunder is redundant alongside Energy Ball. Major Battles: Colress: Useless. Plasma Grunts: Solosis is okay here. Elesa: Not bad, but not good either. On the bright side, it doesn't mind paralysis too much. Clay: Useless. Skyla: Only Swanna doesn't resist its moves. Drayden: It should be a Reuniclus by now, but it's still not that great against his dragons. Marlon: Energy Ball is nice against Carracosta and Wailord, but Jellicent will give you trouble. Kyurem: Again usable, but it doesn't stand out. Ghetsis: Reuniclus is, as always, outsped by everything. With Psychic, Shadow Ball, and Energy Ball, it can hit super-effective on three of Ghetsis' Pokemon. However, two of those Pokemon have Ghost-type moves to deal with it. Shauntal: Don't send this slow Psychic against Ghosts. Marshal: Reuniclus hits super-effectively, but Sawk and Mienshao have super-effective moves to hit it. Grimsley: Don't. Just don't. Caitlin: While Reuniclus can hit super-effectively, Sigilyph and Gothitelle have Shadow Ball. Iris: Reuniclus can only hit Lapras super-effectively if it has Thunder. If it doesn't, then it can't hit anyone for SE damage. Also, it dies to Hydreigon and Haxorus without doubt. Additional Comments: I picked Solosis up because I thought I wanted a Psychic-type, but it could never hit anything first, died to random Pokemon that had a Bug-, Dark-, or Ghost-type move, and couldn't run away from wild Pokemon. Overall frustrating experience.