BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Shurtugal]

Answer: Because they're a huge liability outside of rain, and rain Ferrothorn can easily check most SS'ers as well (like Kingdra since its the most common used, if ever used).

[Hiddenfreezer]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Answer: Because they're a huge liability outside of rain, and rain Ferrothorn can easily check most SS'ers as well (like Kingdra since its the most common used, if ever used).

Kabutops Landorus I (Rock Polish variant)

252Atk Life Orb/ Expert Belt Kabutops (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Landorus (Neutral): 58% - 70% (188 - 224 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.


252Atk Life Orb Kabutops (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 172% - 204% (516 - 612 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

Obvious.

252Atk Life Orb Kabutops (+Atk) Aqua Jet vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 35% - 41% (105 - 124 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

Dealing atleast 35% damage can help winning some situations


Without rain.


About Ferrothorn: I don't get it, because you succesfully prevented a sweep? Furthermore a moveset for Kabutops like:
@Life Orb
Aqua Jet
Stone Edge
Water Fall
Rapid Spin / Aerial Ace (Keldeo) / Super Power (Guess Who?)

Could be easily revenge killing certain treats and it gets speed in rain and atleast a special defense boost in sand. Latter not that important, but it helps against heatran even more i guess?

Yes I know that Kabutops isn't the best Pokemon ever, but ignoring swift swimmer as counter and utility against rain shouldn't be underestimated.

[LilOuOn]

Originally Posted by Fat Hiddenfreezer

Rapid Spin / Aerial Ace (Keldeo) / Super Power (Guess Who?)

Low sweep is better because it has 120 base against ferro and 100 against heatran, moreover your attack stat doesnt drop. Just as a suggestion if you are going to use it.

[Tabuu]

Swift Swim(mers) are definitely useful for taking down Rain dominant threats. However I think the reason why we just don't throw them on a team and think that Rain has been covered is because of the fact that Swift Swimmers (Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops) really aren't able to take on Rain threats. They are certainly able to outspeed almost everything and KO many threats but they aren't the most reliable answers. Also if rain is not present they really end up becoming sub-par Pokemon.

Imagine this...
Tornadus-T walks in. What can the Swift Swimmers do?
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 238-281 (81.78 - 96.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 152-179 (56.08 - 66.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 455-538 (150.66 - 178.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tornadus-T can massively dent them and then proceed to switch out to the appropriate counter...which is most likely Ferrothorn.

Now let's imagine the situation the other way around...
Kabutops is out first. And let's assume you go for the safe Stone Edge on the Torn-T that's out. Instead the opponent switches to Ferrothorn. Now you go for the Superpower:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 231-273 (65.62 - 77.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ferrothorn will live even with prior damage and in turn:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 472-556 (174.16 - 205.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now let's look at Keldeo shall we?
Kabutops goes for the Stone Edge/Water Fall/Aqua Jet on whatever Pokemon is out. Either the Pokemon dies or Keldeo switches in. The scenario at this point really doesn't matter. Now, you pack Aerial Ace and it does:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 190-224 (58.64 - 69.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarfed Keldeo (the most common Keldeo Variant you will encounter) responds with:
252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops in rain: 310-366 (114.39 - 135.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Keldeo is able to outspeed (519) as Adamant Kabutops hits (518).

The verdict? You decide.

Let's observe another very popular Swift Swimmer. (I'm a little tired to go and do Ludicolo. However you are free to calc things yourself. If you find that Ludicolo is an answer, let me know).

Tornadus-T is out again. He's going to spam another Hurricane. Is Kingdra really an answer?
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 238-281 (81.78 - 96.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nope. Your answer rain has just taken a heavy hit and probably won't live too much longer.

Now Tornadus-T cannot switch into any moves that Kingdra has. However Ferrothorn can take on Kingdra and wear it down or force it out. This will allow more opportunities and scenarios where Kingdra just might end up switching into Tornadus-T. (Although a little unlikely)

I've calc'd Keldeo's situation and it seems a little hopeless.

My verdict: Kingdra seems to be the most successful at threatening Rain Teams. However realize that Kingdra is easily stopped by Steel Types, namely Jirachi and Ferrothorn. These common Pokemon are able to stop Kingdra in its tracks.

Swift Swim users are not really the most reliable way to answer Rain. You should definitely have a stronger answer prepared just in case your Swift Swimmer is KO'd early.

[Lord of Bays]

Saying that Kingdra or any Water-type Rain sweeper is stopped by Steel-types is wrong at best and misdirecting at worst.

252SpAtk Life Orb Kingdra (+SAtk) Hydro Pump in Rain vs 252HP/224SpDef Leftovers Jirachi (+SpDef): 61% - 72% (249 - 294 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Ferrothorn stops Rain sweepers (especially the Swift Swimmers) because he resists their STABs and typically is only vulnerable to their coverage. Ludicolo and Kabutops can get around him with coverage, but their attacks are risky.

[Scarfwynaut]

I have been seeing an interesting amount of scizors on rain teams as of late, honestly its a pretty solid strategy, pursuit scizor can really fuck with rain's usual counters like celebi and Blissey. It can also trap and kill off weakened Jirachi's and such making Tornadus-T's job much easier. In return scizor loses its fire weakness and usually rain teams are well supported by rapid spinning by tentacruel or starmie.

Did some RMT popularize this kinda of team because just a few months ago I would never see scizor on a rain team, or did it just come up naturally in the metagame?

[Vemane]

Lately I've been seeing lots of scarf rachis on rain teams

And they are complete setup bait most of the time due to how pitifully weak they are and the amount of pokes that have protect on standard rain

I've also noticed how weak and completely managable life orb tornadus is

Specs is DEFINITELY more threatening

I've been using this little beaut:



Zapdos @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd
Calm Nature
- Thunder
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn

And it is absolutely wonderful against most of the current meta. Walls things cold and can maintain momentum while denting and paralysing with thunder.

Also, now is a great time to use...


Meloetta @ Expert Belt
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 56 Atk / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Relic Song
- Thunder
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Meloetta doesn't do anything particularly special in the current meta, but it thrives in rain, justifying its use.

It's fantastic special defense allows it to tank at least one boosted hpump/hurricane/etc and ko back

Serene grace thunder is great (think jirachi, but stronger)

Being able to switch forms to outspeed and ko tornadus is also very nice

Meloetta, if anything, is a complete surprise as the opponent likely hasn't a clue what to do when she goes out, making for some surprise sweeps/kos

[LilOuOn]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Did some RMT popularize this kinda of team because just a few months ago I would never see scizor on a rain team, or did it just come up naturally in the metagame?

I have been checking some RMTs that had at least 6 luvdiscs and i haven't seen any rain team with scizor. However, i think that the use of scizor in rain is pretty interesting.

When you try to sweep with your keldeo you ahve to remove certain defensive threats first like Celebi, Latios, Latias, Jellycent, Blissey, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, etc. My main weather is Sand and Banded T-tar does a REALLY NICE JOB removing this counters. However, i don't think that using Unnerve banded T-tar is viable in a rain team, so banded Scizor is a good option doing the pursuit job. His 130 base att and technician can be compared with the powerful stab pursuit of banded tar. Of course, since Genesect is gone Scizor can work again. I made some calcs (i love doing calcs) to demostrate the power of pursuit.

252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/0 Def Celebi: 71.29% - 84.16%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/0 Def Latias: 86.26% - 101.65%
12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/224 Def Jellicent (+Def) : 65.84% - 77.72%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 114.57% - 135.1%
Guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Scizor (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252 HP/252 Def Blissey (+Def) : 36.41% - 43%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

[Lord of Bays]

252/252+ Blissey isn't standard anymore, the sets on-site use 4/252/252

[Scarfwynaut]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord of Bays

252/252+ Blissey isn't standard anymore, the sets on-site use 4/252/252

While on site that may be true, you will find that most people still use the old spread.

Not like it matters though:

43.55 - 51.38%

Blissey still avoids a 2HKO and heals up on whatever crappy "special attacker" they have.

[Shokwav]

I think SD Toxicroak is really underrated. It makes fighting opposing rain teams so much easier, and will always 0HKO standard Tornadus-t at +2 after rocks. Tentacruel is setup fodder and Rotom-w won't enjoy a Drain Punch. Surprised I see it on so few rain teams.

...

---

252Atk Life Orb +2 Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Tornadus Therian (Neutral): 86% - 102% (260 - 306 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 13% chance to OHKO.

[ssbbm]

Swift swimmers are fucking amazing, but the only reason they aren't that good is because the only way you're going to be sure they'll work is if you run Rain, but sadly, you can't! Rain Dance is shit because all the swift swimmers need their coverage moves, and it's usually stupid to run rain dance teams in this meta anyway.

Swift swimmers do demolish rain however. Look at Kabutops - LO Waterfall kills Tornadus, Waterfall + Low Kick kills ferrothorn, Stone Edge 2HKOes some Tentacruel... it basically 2HKOes the meta (including Keldeo, which falls to LO Waterfall iirc!)

They're not even that bad out of rain - Kabutops kills Mamoswine with Aqua Jet and checks Heatran pretty well, for example, but in the end they're going to be subpar out of rain, and that can hurt, especially against Deo-D + 5 sweeper teams where you need all the Pokemon you can get.

[Shokwav]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

Swift swimmers are fucking amazing, but the only reason they aren't that good is because the only way you're going to be sure they'll work is if you run Rain, but sadly, you can't! Rain Dance is shit because all the swift swimmers need their coverage moves, and it's usually stupid to run rain dance teams in this meta anyway.

Actually I've run Rain Dance Bronzong and it's not that bad lol. And seriously the fact that Drizzle is so common make Rain Dance teams way more threatening. You should see people reactions when they bring a Rain Team and I'm packing shit like Kingdra, Kabutops, etc. I guarantee you they'll avoid sending in Politoed at all costs.

[Halcyon of Light]

Ok, so I have been seeing a lot of people bash Jolteon on the Suspect Test thread and regularly on the usage stats threads. This just doesn't sit right with me. maybe it's because I have been a huge Jolteon fan since I first played Red. Perhaps it's because I used to rock him on PO in the days when he was UU. Or it could be that Game Freak gave him the perfect balance between cute little bunny/cat and awesome electric-spike fox. Whatever the reason is, I know for a fact that I'm hugely biased towards loving that little guy, and I don't think it's fair to call him a mediocre Pokémon. I decided to look at the potential of Jolteon in greater depth, though I have little experience using him in OU. In order to show you what I've found, I'm going to compare him to one of the premiere threats in the OU metagame: Tornadus-T.



TORNADUS-T

1. Base 120 STAB Hurricane with 30% chance to confuse.

2. Base 110 Special Attack.

3. Base 121 Speed + U-Turn to escape counters.

4. Regenerator, which allows for 33% health to be regained upon switching.

JOLTEON

1. Base 120 Stab Thunder with 30% chance to paralyze.

2. Base 110 Special Attack.

3. Base 130 Speed + Volt Switch to escape counters (sans ground types).

4. Volt Absorb, which allows for 25% health to be regained upon taking an electric hit (obviously not as good, but it's something).

So they actually have some pretty key qualities in common. SOme of the things that make Tornadus-T so powerful are also things that Jolteon has, not to mention he even has a better speed tier, though once you reach 121, there's not too much of a point in going higher.

There are, however, some things that make Tornadus-T better (obviously, I'm not saying that Jolteon is anywhere near as good as Tornadus-T, just that they're similar).

Negatives

1. Jolteon is affected by spikes.

2. Jolteon can't spam Volt Switch because of ground types.

3. Specs sets are good, but are risky because of ground types being immune to electric.

4. Volt Absorb is ok, but not nearly as helpful as Regenerator (though it does give him an immunity).

5. There are far more resistances to electric in OU than flying.

6. Jolteon doesn't have as good of a movepool/coverage.

7. Jolteon has much less bulk.

There are a few things Jolteon has over Tornadus though!

Positives

1. Jolteon is not weak to Stealth Rock.

2. Jolteon gets STAB on Volt Switch, making it more powerful than U-Turn.

3. Paralysis is, in my opinion, better than confusion due to the speed drop.

Naturally, as previously stated, Jolteon is nowhere near as good as Tornadus-T. However, I think it's unfair to call Jolteon mediocre, when it does have so much in common with the most threatening Pokémon in OU. Not only that, but a shocking number of rain teams have a huge weakness to electric types. Many have Politoed, Tornadus, Keldeo, Tentacruel, Gyarados, etc. Also, with hazards, it can actually kill Dugtrio, which I think is pretty funny, though only terrible players actually try to trap Jolteon with Dugtrio (its happened to my Jolteon before -_-).

So no, I'm not trying to say Jolteon is a top-tier threat or anything like that. Maybe it's outclassed by Thundurus-T, I don't know. I'm just saying that it has a lot of really great qualities that make it a strong Pokémon in this rain-infested metagame, and that people should give it more of a chance than they do currently.



EDIT: Look what I just found! Timid Jolteon outspeeds +1 Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados and can KO both with HP Ice and Thunder/Volt Switch respectively while holding only an Expert Belt. This assumes Multiscale has been broken, though.

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 326-389 (100.92 - 120.43%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Expert Belt Jolteon Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 840-994 (253.77 - 300.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[Tabuu]

@Shokwav
Totally backin' you up man.

I think SD Toxicroak is really underrated. It makes fighting opposing rain teams so much easier, and will always 0HKO standard Tornadus-t at +2 after rocks. Tentacruel is setup fodder and Rotom-w won't enjoy a Drain Punch. Surprised I see it on so few rain teams.

[Shokwav]

Originally Posted by Fat Halcyon of Light

So no, I'm not trying to say Jolteon is a top-tier threat or anything like that. Maybe it's outclassed by Thundurus-T, I don't know.

Nah I wouldn't say it's outclassed by Thundurus-t. It lacks a SR weakness and has much better base Speed (though 145 Sp. Atk is ridiculous). Also, when Tornadus-t gets banned you can afford to run a Modest nature, couple that with it's good Sp. Atk and you have a pretty fearsome sweeper in the rain (it always 2HKOs Rotom-w, for example).

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

@Shokwav
Totally backin' you up man.

Thanks haha ^_^, though I've been struggling to find some effective offensive partners for him.

[thecrowing2k8]

Hi guys!

I rarely post but I was wondering what you guys think of Final Gambit Victini in the meta. I know it's very gimmicky, but taking out a key member of an opponents team and making it a 5v5 situation can crumble a wide variety of teams. Most likely, the opponent won't get their hazards up. For more dynamic teams (baton pass, dual screens, opposing weather starters, etc...) it may just win you the battle.

[725roy]

Originally Posted by Fat thecrowing2k8

Hi guys!

I rarely post but I was wondering what you guys think of Final Gambit Victini in the meta. I know it's very gimmicky, but taking out a key member of an opponents team and making it a 5v5 situation can crumble a wide variety of teams. Most likely, the opponent won't get their hazards up. For more dynamic teams (baton pass, dual screens, opposing weather starters, etc...) it may just win you the battle.

Like you said, FG Vicitini is REALLY gimmicky, that being said, it's not totally terrible. Sure you're wasting a perfectly decet Vicitiin, but yes, a 5v5 battle is different than a 6v6 battle. Honestly though, I personally would run the LO and Scarf Sets, seeing as they give a lot more coverage and are able to hit much harder over a longer period of time. Longevity. It's a beautiful thing.

[nmitchell890]

Is it just me or is sand stall really anti-meta at the moment? Seriously I tested a team consisting of Sableye / Hippowdon / Skarmory / Blissey / Sandslash / Latias and every time I come up against a rain/sun team I end up winning without difficulty. Its solid against most other things too. I think I'm onto something here.

[Princess Bri]

Originally Posted by Fat nmitchell890

Is it just me or is sand stall really anti-meta at the moment? Seriously I tested a team consisting of Sableye / Hippowdon / Skarmory / Blissey / Sandslash / Latias and every time I come up against a rain/sun team I end up winning without difficulty. Its solid against most other things too. I think I'm onto something here.

Sand Stall is definitely a solid choice for the current metagame, and I personally have tried it out a few times as well. In the SPL, a common team has been Tyranitar / Latias or Celebi / Forretress / Rotom-W / Ground-type / Heatran. I wouldn't classify it as pure stall, but it definitely is leaning toward the stall-ish kind of things, and it is definitely a good team atm. Your team struggles with Tornadus-T, Rotom-W + Pursuit Trapper, etc. but I would definitely keep working on your idea!

[oSeasons]

another advantage that tornadus-t has over jolteon is that it has access to superpower which 1HKOs tyranitar

[Silent Storm]

Tornadus-Therian is banned now. Smogon just shot themselves in the foot. :(

I don't know how much the rest of you know about competitive Pokémon culture (I'm an expert!), but honour and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like in Yu-Gi-Oh, where you can become successful by banning shit like Exodia, The Forbidden One. If you ban broken threats in Pokémon, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the competitive Pokémon community, after hearing about this, is not going to want to use Smogon tiers on their sites, nor will they continue to use their Smogon accounts. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but Smogon has alienated an entire competitive Pokémon market with this move.

Smogon, publicly apologise and unban Tornadus-Therian or you can kiss your standing in the prestigious, honourable Pokémon community goodbye! :(((((

Also one more thing to add

---

Yeah right lmao, kudos to the suspect voters for banning Torn-T. I am so glad this it is gone :’). Fuck Tornadus-Therian.

I personally think Rain won’t be that much of a deal now that this is gone. Will still be threatening, and will probably remain the best weather to run for the remainder of BW2, but I don't think it will be as dominating as it was at the start of BW2. Thundurus-Therian I see rising in usage along with Dragonite in rain, but the most important thing is that rain just got a whole lot more manageable with this ban, and I love it.

Glad Keldeo is here to stay also.

[Lord of Bays]

^Halfway through reading that, I was going "Are you shitting me?" And then I went "Wait, he's got a hidden post attached. Laughs were had. Tornadus-T is manageable, certainly. But he's fucking annoying and centralizing. I'm glad he's gone as well.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

While on site that may be true, you will find that most people still use the old spread.

Not like it matters though:

43.55 - 51.38%

Blissey still avoids a 2HKO and heals up on whatever crappy "special attacker" they have.

yeah, have fun switching into SpecsToed with 50% health.

[Curtains]

Ok. now that tornadus-t is banned what next rain dedicated mon will be the next suspect.....