(All Gens) The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate - Page 8

Crackstar · Dec 6th, 2012, 6:42:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat kd24

I see the other mons on this list and say this shit is going to kill me if i don't play around it. I see blissey and say how can i abuse this? that is what makes the difference for me.

While I agree with this, I still have to say Blissey is a dominating presence in Gens 3 + 4, as it is the one thing that walls more pokemon completely than anything else. It does give set-up opportunities, but it punks a lot of shit nontheless. Also, this may be a bad idea, but I think we can use the criteria and ideas we found in this thread and expand it to a longer list with Gen 5 and more pokemon that were introduced later. From what I saw, consistency was a factor, but the dominating pokemon that weren't as good in later gens were valued too, so we would have to figure out a way to balance that with newer Gen pokemon. Any ideas?

Borat · Dec 7th, 2012, 4:08:28 AM

Celebi is better than Blissey in every gen they were in.

Hemp Man · Dec 7th, 2012, 4:22:28 AM

I think D/P era Celebi is underrated, the thing is so damn diverse that it can successfully pull off many sets. Sure Pursuit became popular in this gen because of the Physical/Special set, but even Tyranitar and Scizor were not safe counters due to fear of Grass Knot or Hidden Power Fire.

Bent1ey · Dec 7th, 2012, 5:48:45 AM

Maybe Salamence?

shrapn3l · Dec 8th, 2012, 6:39:15 PM

i personally think that skarm should considered among the company of suicune and celebi rather than gengar and starmie.

also celebi is better than suicune in every metagame they're both in and blissey doesn't stand a chance. additionally i wouldn't consider it in terms of it being uber because it is too good, but banned because it is bad for the meta. it was good but you can't look at it as uber in the same way as you look at mewtwo in rby or groudon in adv that you should never consider allowing, just banned. regardless i would say that it was more potentially impactful than suicune on a game to game basis and i might rethink skarm's position as well tbh.

then i would make 9 and 10 a notch lower (as in, not the same shade of green as 6 7 and 8) since nothing else is on the same level as those three imo if anyone's seriously considering blissey for those positions it only emphasizes that distinction. blissey doesn't stack up against them, and neither do things like forretress or dragonite and you might think deserve those spots either. (for the record i think blissey easily deserves #9)

other things i'd think about for those last two slots are i guess cloyster, vaporeon, and raikou. my vote goes toward vaporeon i think because it is ou for 3 metagames, and is super important in gsc and dppt.

magic9mushroom · Dec 31st, 2012, 8:24:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

Not to be an ass, but psychic was never the best type in the game.

The only reason it isn't in RBY OU is that Mewtwo is banned and Chansey isn't Psychic-type (it would be strictly better if it was). With Mewtwo legal, everything that isn't Psychic-type or Chansey must run in fear of its STAB.

Crystal_ · Dec 31st, 2012, 8:46:32 AM

Oh yesterday I wanted to bump this too. What's the consensus so far for #7-#10? Is there any? It looked like Suicune was generally agreed for 7th, but I think that was about it.

***Jellicent**** · Dec 31st, 2012, 11:07:28 AM

Suicune for 7 sounds good to me~

As for the last 3 slots, I believe Jirachi, Blissey, and Celebi were the frontrunners...

shrapn3l · Dec 31st, 2012, 2:05:25 PM

still believe celebi is better than cune and cune bliss vaporeon should be the last three.

also skarm celebi and cune should be their own "group" and bliss and vap should be the lowest group.

**M Dragon** · Jan 1st, 2013, 8:41:06 PM

Jirachi with only 2 gens, and not being at least top 3 in any of them?
Forry/Cloy/Dnite > Jirachi

Captain Evil · Jan 2nd, 2013, 12:09:39 PM

I'm inclined to agree with M Dragon. Certainly Forretress should be above Jirachi, and perhaps Cloyster and Dragonite as well. Those three should at least be considered for the places 8, 9, and 10, I think, among the likes of Blissey, Celebi and Jirachi.

Crystal_ · Jan 2nd, 2013, 1:52:50 PM

What has more negative impact, being, say, Exeggutor in ADV/DP, or being Forretress in RBY?

skeezyj · Jan 2nd, 2013, 2:16:53 PM

even though it's only in bw, i think that politoed deserves a mention. it was mediocre at best in every other generation--actually, if it wasn't for drizzle, it would be in ru, max this gen--but rain is so utterly metagame defining that it deserves to be on here somewhere. if drizzle didn't exist in ou, ou would be unrecognizable at the moment. so many of the top pokemon in the meta rely or at least benefit from rain-torn t, keldeo, ferrothorn, scizor, tentacruel, dragonite, rotom w, the list goes on. in short, the current metagame would barely exist without its rain. it's the most important pokemon of this generation, no competition.

Crystal_ · Jan 2nd, 2013, 2:52:50 PM

only discussing dominance between rby and dp bro.

Lavos Spawn · Jan 3rd, 2013, 1:40:57 AM

cune is the right fit for #7, seems a cut above the rest of the stuff we mentioned. i'm really liking forry and cloy for slots 8 and 9, respectively. forry was obv not existent in rby and i don't play gsc so i can't speak for that gen, but it was the premier spiker and spinner in adv and played a huge role in dpp on stall and even balanced teams. cloyster is slightly below forry imo, though it was adequate in rby and remains my favorite spiker of adv, it had little to no impact on the dpp metagame whatsoever. blissey seems the perfect fit for 10, though i can understand the arguments to be made for celebi as well, but bliss was just so huge in adv as a special tank, cleric, even cm sweeper, and it had the role in dpp as the poke to beat in order to dismantle stall. rachi seems like a poor fit, it was only around for two gens and really wasn't top tier ou in either of them.

just my two cents ^^

Deluks917 · Jan 3rd, 2013, 1:45:41 AM

Cloyster was not used very much during most of ADV's heyday. Celebi was really good in aDV. At one point it was even banned from the tour.

Cune and Bliss seem a cut above the other applicants. Both were extremely strong in at least two gens and useful in a third.

Dre89 · Jan 3rd, 2013, 3:12:57 AM

Wouldn't the most dominant pokemon be an uber?

I mean, they're basically banned because of how dominant they are. Seems kind of silly to omit them from a discussion of dominance when the reason they're omitted is dominance.

Also, psychic was the best type in RBY. I mean, two psychics were banned because of how good they were.

shrapn3l · Jan 4th, 2013, 1:11:33 AM

we're missing that celebi is better than cune in at least two metagames here!

and it's most overall dominant pokemon based on performance in the ou metagame(s) so it has to either be ou or have been ou at one time to judge its dominance of a particular generation. so for example you can consider salamence for dp or celebi for gsc but not ho-oh for anything

Borat · Jan 4th, 2013, 3:50:45 AM

Normal is the best typing in the first two OU gens.

**M Dragon** · Jan 4th, 2013, 4:09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat shrapn3l

we're missing that celebi is better than cune in at least two metagames here!

and it's most overall dominant pokemon based on performance in the ou metagame(s) so it has to either be ou or have been ou at one time to judge its dominance of a particular generation. so for example you can consider salamence for dp or celebi for gsc but not ho-oh for anything

What 2 metagames?
In GSC Celebi is uber, so GSC celebi doesnt count, in ADV Suicune is better, and in DP is better as well

shrapn3l · Jan 4th, 2013, 4:15:09 AM

celebi wasn't always uber in gsc and i seem to recall jellicent said that if that is the case then a pokemon can be considered for that metagame. i probably played gsc more than any other time when celebi was allowed and it was absolutely everywhere, and obviously a superior pokemon to suicune because it forces switches, lives forever and was the best beller. i also thought it was widely agreed that it was better than suicune in adv in another thread and if even if i am mistaken i still think it is quite debatable... i would say celebi has been more ubiquitous in adv than suicune for quite some time. dp i would give to suicune though as well, but historically celebi has been pretty dominant in DP, just not so much anymore.

Jorgen · Jan 4th, 2013, 11:21:53 AM

I dunno if Celebi should be placed over Suicune, though, because a whole era of GSC has been played without the former, so it's really only a half-generation of dominance. I would support Suicune #7, Celebi #8, and Blissey #9.

As for #10, I know my Forretress vote has been shot down repeatedly, so I won't bring that up again, but if we're considering Jirachi for only being good in two generations I think that Egg deserves a fair shake for hitting the top 5 in RBY and GSC before falling off the face of the earth in ADV and DPP. Raikou might be an even better #10 pick for being top 3 in GSC and obviously one of the most threatening sweepers in ADV (and, while BL in DPP, isn't exactly nonviable in OU).

Crystal_ · Jan 4th, 2013, 12:02:47 PM

Quote:

I would support Suicune #7, Celebi #8, and Blissey #9

And idk, maybe Dragonite deserves the 10th spot. Top 10-15 in rby, top 20-25 in gsc, and usable in adv. It'll depend on how good it is in DP, but I've heard that since mence got banned Dnite has become one of the most dominant pokemon in dp. I could be wrong here though. If it's not as dominant, then I'd say either Egg or one of the spikers gets the last spot. Egg before Jirachi all the way though because egg's more dominant in the first two gens than jirachi is in the next two.

shrapn3l · Jan 4th, 2013, 4:40:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Jorgen

I dunno if Celebi should be placed over Suicune, though, because a whole era of GSC has been played without the former, so it's really only a half-generation of dominance. I would support Suicune #7, Celebi #8, and Blissey #9.

if you are looking at it from a perspective of "dominance over time" then obviously suicune takes it for gsc but that's just because it wasn't detrimental enough to get banned which seems a little skewed. the way i saw it was, since celebi was only unbanned for a relatively small amount of time, you give that span of time much more weight. you know that if celebi never got banned it would still be dominating and while it wasn't banned it was probably the 2nd or 3rd most used thing. in gsc, celebi was more dominant when it was unbanned than suicune was dominant when celebi WAS banned, that's why i give it to celebi. i'm putting celebi while unbanned against suicune while celebi is banned, and celebi still wins. i think it is logical to look at it both ways (dominance over time vs. dominance at peak dominance) it just depends on what everyone agrees upon i guess.

as for #10 i was sure about vap but now that i think about it i could also go with dragonite. there's still a strong case for vap though. and forretress i guess

Borat · Jan 4th, 2013, 5:12:14 PM

I don't really understood the whole consensus on celebi and stuff, since I don't get how you can only "half count" something for a gen. I think the general agreement on current rankings is that GSC celebi is out the window. Else it'd top gengar and probably zapdos and fighting against ttar for #2.

Dec 7th, 2012, 4:22:28 AM	#178
Hemp Man Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 744 USA California	I think D/P era Celebi is underrated, the thing is so damn diverse that it can successfully pull off many sets. Sure Pursuit became popular in this gen because of the Physical/Special set, but even Tyranitar and Scizor were not safe counters due to fear of Grass Knot or Hidden Power Fire. __________________ This is Bleach love!

Dec 8th, 2012, 6:39:15 PM	#180
shrapn3l Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 156 JERSEY	i personally think that skarm should considered among the company of suicune and celebi rather than gengar and starmie. also celebi is better than suicune in every metagame they're both in and blissey doesn't stand a chance. additionally i wouldn't consider it in terms of it being uber because it is too good, but banned because it is bad for the meta. it was good but you can't look at it as uber in the same way as you look at mewtwo in rby or groudon in adv that you should never consider allowing, just banned. regardless i would say that it was more potentially impactful than suicune on a game to game basis and i might rethink skarm's position as well tbh. then i would make 9 and 10 a notch lower (as in, not the same shade of green as 6 7 and 8) since nothing else is on the same level as those three imo if anyone's seriously considering blissey for those positions it only emphasizes that distinction. blissey doesn't stack up against them, and neither do things like forretress or dragonite and you might think deserve those spots either. (for the record i think blissey easily deserves #9) other things i'd think about for those last two slots are i guess cloyster, vaporeon, and raikou. my vote goes toward vaporeon i think because it is ou for 3 metagames, and is super important in gsc and dppt. __________________ <&spies> FUCK i just SNEEZED and made a MESS

Dec 31st, 2012, 8:46:32 AM	#182
Crystal_ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 833 Spain	Oh yesterday I wanted to bump this too. What's the consensus so far for #7-#10? Is there any? It looked like Suicune was generally agreed for 7th, but I think that was about it. __________________ Updated RBY analyses: ~~ Alakazam / Chansey / Dragonite / Exeggutor / Slowbro / Snorlax / Starmie / Tauros ~~ Articles: ~~ The RBY UU Metagame // Sleep and Leads in RBY ~~ Warstory: ~~ RBY Little Cup ~~ ****** RBY 251 ** The RBY Metagame with all GSC Pokemon allowed!

Dec 31st, 2012, 11:07:28 AM	#183
*Jellicent Walk without rhythm and you won't attract the worm Super Moderator** Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 1,714 If you walk without rhythm, ah, you never learn Mentor	Suicune for 7 sounds good to me~ As for the last 3 slots, I believe Jirachi, Blissey, and Celebi were the frontrunners... __________________ ^.^

Dec 31st, 2012, 2:05:25 PM	#184
shrapn3l Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 156 JERSEY	still believe celebi is better than cune and cune bliss vaporeon should be the last three. also skarm celebi and cune should be their own "group" and bliss and vap should be the lowest group. __________________ <&spies> FUCK i just SNEEZED and made a MESS

Dec 7th, 2012, 4:08:28 AM	#177
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 725	Celebi is better than Blissey in every gen they were in.

Dec 7th, 2012, 5:48:45 AM	#179
Bent1ey Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 235	Maybe Salamence?

Jan 1st, 2013, 8:41:06 PM	#185
M Dragon The north wind Moderator Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,166	Jirachi with only 2 gens, and not being at least top 3 in any of them? Forry/Cloy/Dnite > Jirachi __________________

Jan 2nd, 2013, 12:09:39 PM	#186
Captain Evil Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 48	I'm inclined to agree with M Dragon. Certainly Forretress should be above Jirachi, and perhaps Cloyster and Dragonite as well. Those three should at least be considered for the places 8, 9, and 10, I think, among the likes of Blissey, Celebi and Jirachi.

Jan 2nd, 2013, 1:52:50 PM	#187
Crystal_ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 833 Spain	What has more negative impact, being, say, Exeggutor in ADV/DP, or being Forretress in RBY? __________________ Updated RBY analyses: ~~ Alakazam / Chansey / Dragonite / Exeggutor / Slowbro / Snorlax / Starmie / Tauros ~~ Articles: ~~ The RBY UU Metagame // Sleep and Leads in RBY ~~ Warstory: ~~ RBY Little Cup ~~ ****** RBY 251 ** The RBY Metagame with all GSC Pokemon allowed!

Jan 2nd, 2013, 2:16:53 PM	#188
skeezyj Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 12 Boston	even though it's only in bw, i think that politoed deserves a mention. it was mediocre at best in every other generation--actually, if it wasn't for drizzle, it would be in ru, max this gen--but rain is so utterly metagame defining that it deserves to be on here somewhere. if drizzle didn't exist in ou, ou would be unrecognizable at the moment. so many of the top pokemon in the meta rely or at least benefit from rain-torn t, keldeo, ferrothorn, scizor, tentacruel, dragonite, rotom w, the list goes on. in short, the current metagame would barely exist without its rain. it's the most important pokemon of this generation, no competition.

Jan 2nd, 2013, 2:52:50 PM	#189
Crystal_ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 833 Spain	only discussing dominance between rby and dp bro. __________________ Updated RBY analyses: ~~ Alakazam / Chansey / Dragonite / Exeggutor / Slowbro / Snorlax / Starmie / Tauros ~~ Articles: ~~ The RBY UU Metagame // Sleep and Leads in RBY ~~ Warstory: ~~ RBY Little Cup ~~ ****** RBY 251 ** The RBY Metagame with all GSC Pokemon allowed!

Jan 3rd, 2013, 1:40:57 AM	#190
Lavos Spawn Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 2,322 wild west Mentor	cune is the right fit for #7, seems a cut above the rest of the stuff we mentioned. i'm really liking forry and cloy for slots 8 and 9, respectively. forry was obv not existent in rby and i don't play gsc so i can't speak for that gen, but it was the premier spiker and spinner in adv and played a huge role in dpp on stall and even balanced teams. cloyster is slightly below forry imo, though it was adequate in rby and remains my favorite spiker of adv, it had little to no impact on the dpp metagame whatsoever. blissey seems the perfect fit for 10, though i can understand the arguments to be made for celebi as well, but bliss was just so huge in adv as a special tank, cleric, even cm sweeper, and it had the role in dpp as the poke to beat in order to dismantle stall. rachi seems like a poor fit, it was only around for two gens and really wasn't top tier ou in either of them. just my two cents ^^ __________________

Jan 3rd, 2013, 1:45:41 AM	#191
Deluks917 Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 247	Cloyster was not used very much during most of ADV's heyday. Celebi was really good in aDV. At one point it was even banned from the tour. Cune and Bliss seem a cut above the other applicants. Both were extremely strong in at least two gens and useful in a third.

Jan 3rd, 2013, 3:12:57 AM	#192
Dre89 Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 256	Wouldn't the most dominant pokemon be an uber? I mean, they're basically banned because of how dominant they are. Seems kind of silly to omit them from a discussion of dominance when the reason they're omitted is dominance. Also, psychic was the best type in RBY. I mean, two psychics were banned because of how good they were.

Jan 4th, 2013, 1:11:33 AM	#193
shrapn3l Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 156 JERSEY	we're missing that celebi is better than cune in at least two metagames here! and it's most overall dominant pokemon based on performance in the ou metagame(s) so it has to either be ou or have been ou at one time to judge its dominance of a particular generation. so for example you can consider salamence for dp or celebi for gsc but not ho-oh for anything __________________ <&spies> FUCK i just SNEEZED and made a MESS

Jan 4th, 2013, 3:50:45 AM	#194
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 725	Normal is the best typing in the first two OU gens.

Jan 4th, 2013, 4:15:09 AM	#196
shrapn3l Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 156 JERSEY	celebi wasn't always uber in gsc and i seem to recall jellicent said that if that is the case then a pokemon can be considered for that metagame. i probably played gsc more than any other time when celebi was allowed and it was absolutely everywhere, and obviously a superior pokemon to suicune because it forces switches, lives forever and was the best beller. i also thought it was widely agreed that it was better than suicune in adv in another thread and if even if i am mistaken i still think it is quite debatable... i would say celebi has been more ubiquitous in adv than suicune for quite some time. dp i would give to suicune though as well, but historically celebi has been pretty dominant in DP, just not so much anymore. __________________ <&spies> FUCK i just SNEEZED and made a MESS

Jan 4th, 2013, 11:21:53 AM	#197
Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 749	I dunno if Celebi should be placed over Suicune, though, because a whole era of GSC has been played without the former, so it's really only a half-generation of dominance. I would support Suicune #7, Celebi #8, and Blissey #9. As for #10, I know my Forretress vote has been shot down repeatedly, so I won't bring that up again, but if we're considering Jirachi for only being good in two generations I think that Egg deserves a fair shake for hitting the top 5 in RBY and GSC before falling off the face of the earth in ADV and DPP. Raikou might be an even better #10 pick for being top 3 in GSC and obviously one of the most threatening sweepers in ADV (and, while BL in DPP, isn't exactly nonviable in OU). __________________ QC stuff: Explosion in GSC [Outline]

Jan 4th, 2013, 5:12:14 PM	#200
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 725	I don't really understood the whole consensus on celebi and stuff, since I don't get how you can only "half count" something for a gen. I think the general agreement on current rankings is that GSC celebi is out the window. Else it'd top gengar and probably zapdos and fighting against ttar for #2.