Ubers Stats - December 2012

[shrang]

Damn it Charizard usage went up again =(

[ChuckHades]

Though this is clearly no excuse to use a Charizard, is there any special attack in the game more powerful than sun boosted solar power Blast Burn from specs Charizard? I did some calcs with other powerful moves in Ubers, and I was surprised. I used Blissey as an arbitrary punching bag. Also, the Honkalculator doesn't have Blast Burn, so I used full health Eruption instead, as they have the same power.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Eruption (Blast Burn) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 466-550 (71.47 - 84.35%)
52+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in rain: 393-463 (60.27 - 71.01%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 340-402 (52.14 - 61.65%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 280-331 (42.94 - 50.76%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 268-316 (41.1 - 48.46%)

This isn't meant to encourage the use of Charizard, but it may explain why people use it perhaps.

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Fat ChuckHades

Though this is clearly no excuse to use a Charizard, is there any special attack in the game more powerful than sun boosted solar power Blast Burn from specs Charizard? I did some calcs with other powerful moves in Ubers, and I was surprised. I used Blissey as an arbitrary punching bag. Also, the Honkalculator doesn't have Blast Burn, so I used full health Eruption instead, as they have the same power.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Eruption (Blast Burn) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 466-550 (71.47 - 84.35%)
52+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in rain: 393-463 (60.27 - 71.01%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in sun: 340-402 (52.14 - 61.65%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 280-331 (42.94 - 50.76%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 268-316 (41.1 - 48.46%)

This isn't meant to encourage the use of Charizard, but it may explain why people use it perhaps.

Blast burn shouldn't be mentioned, as overheat is still more powerful than any attack you listed.

[ChuckHades]

Originally Posted by Fat Faint

Blast burn shouldn't be mentioned, as overheat is still more powerful than any attack you listed.

Overheat is base 140 power, Blast Burn is base 150 power. Obviously two overheats are more powerful, but as a one time use, Blast Burn is more powerful.

[Rayquaza_]

Mandatory monthly reminder of why Charizard is so "popular" in ubers: noobs make shitty teams with their favorite mons from the anime, which often include Charizard and some uber legendary like Mewtwo with dreadful movesets like 3 STAB moves and Hyper Beam, so their teams get defaulted to ubers.
No reason to discuss over it every single month.

[ChuckHades]

I never bought that fully though. I mean, how would you even find Smogon, Showdown, etc if you were that terrible? I mean, I'm sure SOME people do that, but I don't think there's enough to account for Charizard being ahead of the likes of Victini and Draco Arceus. But whatever, it's irrelevant because Charizard sucks, there, end of.

Moving on to something worth talking about, Arceus Fighting with barely 1% usage is disgraceful. It's the closest thing to a counter Extreme Killer has, with the bulky variant being able to take +2 Espeeds all day, and either Will-O-Wisping or flat out blowing a hole in it with Judgment. It deals with a lot of physical attackers actually, and has better defensive typing than Giratina and Lugia, two of the leading physical walls that have multiple times its usage. Fighting grants it weaknesses to Flying type moves (lol) and Psychic moves (which basically means Mewtwo, who shits on the whole tier anyway). It doesn't have many resistances, but the ones it has are great; Dark, Rock and Bug allow it to wall threats like Darkrai, Tyranitar, and Genesect, three massive threats in Ubers. And unlike many walls Fighting Arceus packs a massive punch in STAB, Fist Plate boosted Judgment, which hits most things either for neutral or super effectively. Couple this with Ice Beam, and give him Will-O-Wisp and Recover, and Fightceus becomes nay on impossible to kill from the physical spectrum.

Fightceus motherfuckers: Start using it.

[Hack He Must]

Moving on to something worth talking about, Arceus Fighting with barely 1% usage is disgraceful. It's the closest thing to a counter Extreme Killer has, with the bulky variant being able to take +2 Espeeds all day, and either Will-O-Wisping or flat out blowing a hole in it with Judgment. It deals with a lot of physical attackers actually, and has better defensive typing than Giratina and Lugia, two of the leading physical walls that have multiple times its usage. Fighting grants it weaknesses to Flying type moves (lol) and Psychic moves (which basically means Mewtwo, who shits on the whole tier anyway). It doesn't have many resistances, but the ones it has are great; Dark, Rock and Bug allow it to wall threats like Darkrai, Tyranitar, and Genesect, three massive threats in Ubers. And unlike many walls Fighting Arceus packs a massive punch in STAB, Fist Plate boosted Judgment, which hits most things either for neutral or super effectively. Couple this with Ice Beam, and give him Will-O-Wisp and Recover, and Fightceus becomes nay on impossible to kill from the physical spectrum.

Fightceus motherfuckers: Start using it.

Many things wrong here. I have bolded things in your argument that are far from reality. Taking extremespeeds all day:

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 279-328 (62.83 - 73.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really. I suppose you mean max hp by bulky variants. I have never seen an impish Fighceus, that would be wasteful.

Koing it all day?

4 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Judgment (Fighting) vs. 232 HP / 32 SpD Arceus-Normal: 254-300 (57.85 - 68.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really. I don't what set you are running, but I assume standard utility counter. Will o wisp is not a reliable way of checking E-killer. A quote from a friend of mine.

...

---

"The primary method by which an excellent Übers team deals with Extreme Killer Arceus must not be through trying to burn it with the move Will-O-Wisp. Let's say there is a team like mine which has Espeon, Multiscale Lugia with Toxic and Whirlwind, as well as a physically defensive Groudon with Dragon Tail, but one of its other members, say an Arceus-Ghost, just so happens to know Will-O-Wisp. Trying to burn an Arceus-Normal with that Arceus-Ghost as a last-ditch effort to stop it from sweeping after one's Lugia and Groudon have been taken out would be fine. However, a team that relies entirely on that Arceus-Ghost's Will-O-Wisp in order to stop Arceus-Normal... in other words, a team which would be swept by an Arceus-Normal if Arceus-Ghost fails to burn it before getting taken out by it, cannot possibly be an excellent Übers team, because a team whose sole answer to Extreme Killer Arceus is a Will-O-Wisp-reliant Pokémon like Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Rock, and physically-defensive Giratina is, by my judgment, a team that does not have a counter or check to Arceus-Normal, and therefore automatically fails, being an average team at best, since Extreme Killer Arceus is by far the best Pokémon and most dangerous sweeper in the game. You may be able to win many battles by shutting down the opponent's Extreme Killer Arceus with Will-O-Wisp, while ocassionally having to use the move twice against one that holds a Lum Berry, but climbing the ladder and reaching #1 involves winning not just more than half the time, but doing so consistently. If you just rely on Will-O-Wisp against Arceus-Normal, you'll sooner or later find a battle in which your Will-O-Wisp user gets taken out by the opponent's Extreme Killer Arceus before you manage to burn it, and then get swept, and higher up on the ladder, this will result in you losing a number of points which would require ten or more battles to make up for... assuming Will-O-Wisp doesn't miss [b]again[/]b within those ten battles and resulting in you falling even lower on the ladder. Also keep in mind that the probability of two Will-O-Wisps hitting in a row, which is necessary to burn a Lum Berry Arceus, is only 56%. This is one of the primary reasons why I do not consider many, if not the majority of Übers teams (including many of which created by myself in the past), to be truly excellent teams."

Better defensive typing than Giratina and Lugia? How? Giratina can spinblock, tank even SpecsOgre, wall e-killer better (not exactly that good a check in my opinion) if it goes Impish defensive. Lugia is also a better check to E-killer, as well as Mewtwo, and I forgot to mention careful Giratina can switch in on Mewtwo as well. Also being stopped after all your boosting efforts by something as common as Mewtwo is a bad trait. Most CM Arceus aren't that weak to it (read Ghostceus). Bug, rock and dark resistances are hardly that good. Genesect will U-turn into Ho-oh for example. About walling Genesect: it will U-turn into a counter when you come in most of the time. And btw. Don't get me started by saying lol to a flying weakness. Just don't.

Fightceus is okay, but not the best E-killer check in the game.

[ChuckHades]

"Taking all day" was definitely exaggeration on my part, I apologise. What I mean is that it can take one very comfortably, and burn it or do major damage back, which Giratina and Lugia can't do. Nothing counters Extreme Killer, but Fightceus in my opinion is the strongest check. Lugia can only phaze away, whereas Fightceus and Giratina can phaze AND burn. The difference between the two is that while they are both 2HKO'd by E-Speed or Shadow Claw respectively (Impish Max Defense Giratina takes 52.28% min from LO +2 Shadow Claw), Fightceus can do damage back, whilst Giratina can't (REAL damage anyway). By the way, I never said Fightceus "KO'd it all day", just that it can do significant damage back.This makes him the strongest check to Extreme Killer in the game, or at least top three.

In Ubers, Fighting is better defensive typing than most because it isn't weak to ice or dragon. They are probably the two most common attacking choices, so not being weak to either is a huge boon, something neither Giratina nor Lugia can boast. Flying moves is what, Ho-oh? Ok, granted, but Giratina and Lugia don't appreciate Brave Birds to the face either. Pyschic is Mewtwo basically, who beats Giratina and Lugia one one anyway.

Giratina hardly tanks SpecOgre: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 240-284 (47.71 - 56.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It can switch in once, and once only, (even if you predict correctly, Water Spout still does 42% min).

What does Lugia do better against E-Killer than Fightceus? Assuming Multiscale is up is too presumptious, most players will never set up with a multiscale Lugia on the field. Even then:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 260-307 (62.5 - 73.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As you can see, Lugia takes the +2 hit the exact same as Fightceus, except it's a move with a higher crit ratio, so surely Fightceus has a tiny advantage here?

Lugia also cannot take Ice Beams from Mewtwo either:
252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 200-237 (48.07 - 56.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I wasn't talking about CM Fightceus btw, the set I'm referring to carries Will-O-Wisp, Ice Beam, Judgment, and a variable last slot between recover, roar, perish song, or whatever you may need. And of course Ghostceus deals with it, that's just a given, in the same way Ho-oh deals with Ferrothorn. Every pokemon has something that deals with it to a degree, but what Fightceus deals with is worth having him being dealt with by Ghostceus.

Fightceus isn't perfect, but the very fact that he does check E-Killer means that he at least warrants a little bit more than 1% usage when E-Killer is on about 30% of all teams. I'm not calling for him to be top ten, but when put in a solid defensive core, Fightceus becomes one of the better Arceus forms.

EDIT: Bold Fightceus isn't actually horrible, if you want it to have a meh chance of living two +2 Espeeds:

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fighting: 207-244 (46.62 - 54.95%) -- 66.41% chance to 2HKO

I wouldn't, but it may win matches now and then.

[Go10]

Originally Posted by Fat Hack He Must

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fighting: 279-328 (62.83 - 73.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really. I suppose you mean max hp by bulky variants. I have never seen an impish Fighceus, that would be wasteful.

As long as he can come on Arceus and take Extrem Speed LO after he used Sword Dance and still being alive is something i can call "taking ES all day" since you are coming on the turn he use SD. If he try to kill you without it, you are still taking 33.56 - 40.09%, which is far too low even with double max damage, one layer of spikes and stealth rock.
Also, you don't need to be impish to be bulky, I think you already know that, let's skip to your next argument.

Originally Posted by Fat Hack He Must

Koing it all day?

4 SpA Fist Plate Arceus-Fighting Judgment (Fighting) vs. 232 HP / 32 SpD Arceus-Normal: 254-300 (57.85 - 68.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really. I don't what set you are running, but I assume standard utility counter. Will o wisp is not a reliable way of checking E-killer. A quote from a friend of mine.

My Fightceus is doing 71.96 - 85.35% with Judgement, which is enough to kill him with one layer of spikes, stealth rock and one turn of Life Orb (well actually, you need to do 72% since you are peaking to 99% if you do a min damage, w/e).

Originally Posted by Fat Hack He Must

Fightceus is okay, but not the best E-killer check in the game.

As you can see with my previous arguments, Fightceus is one of the best offensive check for EKceus since he can come on him, take a hit with double layer of entry hazards and still fire back with a Judgement who cut both of his arm. In the worst case, you die along with him, but we are talking about Arceus so yeah, it's obviously a big threat who need some preparation before trying to take him one-on-one.
Now, I bet you are thinking "where this calcs come from ? I dont have the same numbers", well, it's called Teambuilding. I used my own spread which came from a team I built during BW1 on Fightceus since he was incredibly strong during this meta pollued by rainstall, he is still an excellent Arceus type, even though Lugia&Ho-Oh new ability hurt him a lot. Look at your spread in the calcs, they are all (or almost) 252/252/4. When you build a team, you have to make sure your spreads are suited for your team, not just taking a random 252/252/4 or a spread from the analysis without testing it like a deadbrain. Adjust it, change it so it allow you to take / do enough damage for what you have to do.

I didnt quoted your argument about better defensive typing, there is no reason to compare Fightceus, Lugia, Giratina and anyone else, they are not the same. Fightceus is a bulky mons who can act as a sweeper, the 2 other are pure stallers.

Peace and have a nice day.

[Hack He Must]

Since I never really used Fightceus that much, I had nothing to go on. Therefore I used the main sets in the calcs. Idk about the other guy but I don't know if he is using your spreads either. ChuckHades actually used a defense boosting nature in his calc, as a matter of fact, therfore he can't pull of the same amount of damage as you build does. Ofc I have no real answer for your argument Go10, since as I said (and you said) I am kinda deadbrained when it comes to this poke.

ChuckHades, I never assume Life orb on E-killer, IMO it is a bad item on it.

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Lugia: 205-243 (49.27 - 58.41%) -- 64.45% chance to 2HKO

About which poke is worse against Mewtwo isn't really relevant actually. All that really matters is that Fightceus is in way more trouble since it gets one shotted by its STAB. And I wasn't talking about CM fightceus that much either, more like something similar to your set, the utility counter set (which apperently isn't a good set for checking E-killer, as Go10 told me in his post).

[Anikrahman1995]

I would like to correct this idea that "Arceus-Fighting is the best Extremekiller check." If you want to look for the best offensive Extremekiller check, look no futher than Terrakion.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 437-515 (99.09 - 116.78%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Any attack during Arceus's setup - even rapid spin, will make that 100%.

If you are paranoid about jolly variants, you can use a scarf set:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 336-396 (87.95 - 103.66%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.

The second best is probabaly the unreleased Chandelure.

Also, I am supporting Hack He Must. Life Orb is a bad item on Extremekiller. Remember that Species Clause prevents the use of multiple Arceus formes. Using an often inferior Arceus forme is not the best idea.

EDIT: How do we define a check again? Why are we assuming that Terrakion is switching in? If something can switch in and defeat the Pokemon in question, then that is a counter. A check (in this case, Terrakion) can switch into some moves ( in this case, Extremespeed and Shadow Claw or possibly, Overheat) and beat the Pokemon in question.

[Go10]

Originally Posted by Fat Anikrahman1995

I would like to correct this idea that "Arceus-Fighting is the best Extremekiller check." If you want to look for the best offensive Extremekiller check, look no futher than Terrakion.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 437-515 (99.09 - 116.78%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Any attack during Arceus's setup - even rapid spin, will make that 100%.

Terrakion isnt a check to EKceus, he is a revenge killer since he is OHKOed by EQ (Earthquake: 99.38 - 117.28%). Fightceus can come easily on anything EKceus can use and still force him out, he is the best EKceus check you can look for with an offense. Also yeah, I dont like Life Orb that much on Arceus, his bulk is great, its a shame to sacrifice his health for that, better use Leftovers for some staying power or Lum Berry to screw with wow user.

Edit : Ok I'll explain to you the difference between a check and counter. A check is something that can come on X with low risks of being KOed. For exemple, Palkia was in bw1 the best check to Kyogre (remember that Ferrothorn is 2HKOed by Water Spout), being able to take absolutely everything, and retaliate with a super effective Thunder. But, he was not a counter since Thunder and Ice Beam from the specs was a net 2hko with no way of recovering the damage. Another exemple is Genesect with Latias, you come on her most of the time due to the lack of hp fire and sunteam, you are still able to take Thunder and KO back with Uturn; but again, you can do it once since Thunder'll kill you next time. A counter doesnt care at all about X, he'll come on you and laugh at your face. For exemple, Skarmory can come on EKceus no matter what you do, use toxic, then setup his entry hazards or just whirlwind you away and there is nothing you can do about it. And even if you try to use a lum berry, he can use his toxic twice and still counter you hard.
In our case, Terrakion can check EKceus, it's true, he can come on a predicted Extrem Speed or Sword Dance then force him out, but, since EKceus always use Earthquake, you are taking the risk of losing your only way of dealing with him, so you are not a check to EKceus, but you can still check him if you play right (or wait for a death then bring him after that); so he is a revenge killer and not a real check. I hope you understand now the difference between being a check, and being able to check someone.

[ChuckHades]

I think we've gotten a bit distracted from the original point I was trying to make. I will fully admit I did go a little bit Billy Mays on trying to sell Fightceus, and so I forgot some specifics like EVs and items and whatnot. But I hope I at least managed to make clear that the very fact that Fightceus does check E-Killer means it should be getting more than 1% usage. Everything else I'll give to you, but so long as that point stands, I'm happy.

EDIT: The defense boosting calc wasn't to show that Bold Max Defense Fightceus is something everyone should run, it was just to show that he can take 2 +2 Espeeds, which I find rather impressive for a poke that doesn't resist it.

[Brave Bird spam]

wow the top ten is basically the same as in the last batch of statistics
My thoughts:

| 1 | Kyogre | 34809 | 42.027% | 29562 | 44.510% |

Yup yup
| 13 | Genesect | 12160 | 14.681% | 10467 | 15.760% |

Glad to see it getting some well deserved usage at last. It seems like people will only use things once they're banned(unless they're ferrothorn/forretress).
| 19 | Excadrill | 9750 | 11.772% | 7450 | 11.217% | 25 | Tyranitar | 6902 | 8.333% | 6369 | 9.589% | |

So people are using rain support excadrill. Glad to see people are recognizing that it's one of the best zekrom checks out there.

| 20 | Deoxys-Speed | 9183 | 11.087% | 8701 | 13.101% |

Surprising to see arguably the best lead for offensive teams sitting at 13% usage, especially seing as many uber teams are offensive

| 23 | Latias | 7239 | 8.740% | 5644 | 8.498% |

Hmm... interesting to see such an amazing kyogre counter and pokemon in general so low
| 39 | Scizor | 2357 | 2.846% | 1901 | 2.862% |

Wow... it's not what it used to be in d/p/pt


| 47 | Cloyster | 1738 | 2.098% | 1394 | 2.099% |
| 48 | Heatran | 1702 | 2.055% | 1423 | 2.143% |

These two pokes are really good. I expected them to be in the 20s or low 30s maybe, but wow...


| 56 | Skarmory | 1374 | 1.659% | 1124 | 1.692% |

It's too bad skarm gets neglected so much. I guess it's because of its tiny special defense


| 62 | Hippowdon | 1159 | 1.399% | 1078 | 1.623% |

>tyrantitar(in my opinion) People use it more!

| 106 | Aron | 413 | 0.499% | 327 | 0.492% |
| 115 | Cresselia | 376 | 0.454% | 302 | 0.455% |
| 120 | Bronzong | 356 | 0.430% | 321 | 0.483% |
| 131 | Bisharp | 267 | 0.322% | 218 | 0.328% |
| 193 | Beartic | 119 | 0.144% | 95 | 0.143% |
lol aron used more than some viable(and good!) pokemon -__-



Ubers OU: Arceus, Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Steel, Blaziken, Blissey, Chansey, Darkrai, Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Speed, Dialga, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Garchomp, Genesect, Giratina, Giratina-Origin, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kabutops, Kyogre, Kyurem-Black, Kyurem-White, Latias, Latios, Lugia, Manaphy, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-Sky, Terrakion, Thundurus, Tyranitar, Zekrom

sorry if I'm being a noob, but what exactly is ubers OU?

[Hugin]

The OU tier is mons that are used on more than ~3.4% of OU teams. "Ubers OU" Is mons that are used on more than ~3.4% of Ubers teams. It doesn't really mean much, but it's interesting.

[Theorymon]

So I was just checking ability stats, and to my surprise, Excadrill actually only used mold breaker 28% of the time. Don't get me wrong now, Excadrill is pretty much the reason I use sand, but Mold Breaker Excadrill is THE Excadrill to use in the rain! (and yes I know that Tyranitar was with Excadrill 50% of the time and Kyogre was there 30% of the time).

Something that also surprised me was Iron Head's usage being so low. Rapid Spin is a great move, but Iron Head has some serious appeal on the Sand Rush set, since after a boost, you have a good chance of OHKOing -Defense Giratina-O after Stealth Rock damage, you OHKO Latias, you can deal a crazy 86.15 - 101.69% vs Jolly Gliscor, and you 2HKO Grass Arceus! Also, I have to admit that Iron Head flinches have saved me before too!

[MapleDoom]

Tbh, I don't think I've ever ran Rapid Spin on Excadrill before, seeing as I've ran forry on my sand teams.

| 131 | Bisharp | 267 | 0.322% | 218 | 0.328% |
Everyone, kill yourselves.

[jackm]

Rapid Spin Excadrill is excellent in both sand and rain. In sand, you can take advantage of the increased offensive presence that you provide to pressure spinblockers; in rain, Mold Breaker lets you deal heavy damage to Lati@s and Giratina-O. At least imo, it's much more effective than Forretress.