np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[Shurtugal]

I don't get why you quoted me, because that's pretty much what I said...? Unless I'm missing something.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Try to Baton Pass a Perish Song, and you will be put on a hard time. So, Baton Pass only works well if you are using Thunder Wave. I sincerely prefer Perish Song since it deters things like Sheer Force Landorus.

As for Amoongus, it's 2HKOed by both Crunch and Stone Edge. The latter can even OHKO with a little of prior damage.

As for Toxicroak, yeah, it unfortunately defeats Tyranitar, so it's a counter to the combination of Keldeo + Tyranitar. However, this is simply to solve with a Ground- or Psychic-type partner like Hippowdon, Landorus, Celebi, or Lati@s.

Baton Pass works with Perish Song, as long as you don't mindlessly spam Perish Song every time your force something out. In the rare case that you will Perish Song something just switch out manually. It's a small price to pay for being able to escape BandTar and Band Scizor.

Why would Amoonguss stay in against Ttar? It will simply switch out to wall Keldeo the next time it comes in.

@ Shurtugal

Now i am satisfied :D

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

I don't get why you quoted me, because that's pretty much what I said...? Unless I'm missing something.

You didn't explained why Celebi works well on sand, or what sun have to compensate the fact that it doesn't get 100% accurate moves like Hurricane or Thunder.

Also, Baton Pass does not work well with Perish Song because you are pretty much forced to lose your momentum, even if you sucessfully managed to bring a counter to whatever your opponent have.

[Shurtugal]

but you don't need to run perish song celebi to hard-core wall keldeo, you just need giga drain. its not like i have to run perish, or even baton pass. its all things celebi can do, but it doesn't have to run those moves at all either. U-turn is just as potent, u-turing on the TTar switch in and leaf storm is also powerful. I don't get why you keep bringing up Perish when I only mentioned BP. U-turn escapes if it turns before Tar comes in so it also works.

I understand the rest though ~ but to be fair I didn't think I'd have to explain all those things anyway. I forget that newer players are also reading this ;~;

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

but you don't need to run perish song celebi to hard-core wall keldeo, you just need giga drain. its not like i have to run perish, or even baton pass. its all things celebi can do, but it doesn't have to run those moves at all either. U-turn is just as potent, u-turing on the TTar switch in and leaf storm is also powerful. I don't get why you keep bringing up Perish when I only mentioned BP. U-turn escapes if it turns before Tar comes in so it also works.

You didn't mentioned it, but alexwolf did. Although I agree that Giga Drain or Psychic is sufficient to deal with Keldeo. Yes, Baton Pass escapes from Pursuit, but if you use it with Perish Song, you have to switch out manually any time you want to use Perish Song, OR be forced to lose momentum. U-Turn works just as well as Baton Pass if you have good prediction skills.

[Shurtugal]

Also, technically, someone could run Perish Song / U-turn / Giga Drain / Baton Pass if they really wanted to. Not saying its the best set (its ass) but its totally possible if someone wanted something to stop set up and utility vs. rain

[Super Mario Bro]

I ran a Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Perish Song, Recover Celebi move-set on my rain semi-stall, and it was simply amazing. It was the core of my team structure, and I wouldn't have made recs without it.

[Shurtugal]

You didn't run BP with that but the point is clear: you don't need BP on celebi and its still amazing vs. Keldeo so for those of you arguing that Keldy is gonna get borked; its not. Banded Tyranitar is a shitty argument since both players can play well enough around it.

[Scarfwynaut]

What is the purpose of running both baton pass and u-turn, in battle they effectively do the same thing, its not like u-turn damage matters much coming off celebi. Its not like Tyranitar is relevant to Keldeo anyway, Keldeo is shit in the sand, if anything baton pass is for scizor.

I agree though that all you need to do against Keldeo is spam giga-drain, its not that difficult, I think only specs can get through, and even then its only HP-ghost / ice, you should have something to take an HP-ghost / ice.

[Super Mario Bro]

Yea, it's pretty easy to predict Scizor and Tyranitar. U-Turn + hazards wears them down really quickly.

[Shurtugal]

I believe I said it as shitty, but my point was that celebi is a counter to Keldeo regardless of what it carries simply because Celebi has amazing resist and it has 2 means of escaping Tar no matter which one you use.

Also wanted to point out that technically one could run both (though I mentioned it was shit).

[ssbbm]

the biggest problem with keldeo that i've seen is that it wants ttar for pursuit support (ttar is superior to scizor in terms of pursuit support), but it also wants rain so that it can spam an incredibly strong hydro pump. the biggest thing about it that could make it broken is the ease on which you can damage its counters with pursuit support - for example, if you run scarf keldeo + scizor then any player that tries to check keldeo with latias will almost always lose.

however, keldeo is weak in the sense that it is frail and that its individual moves are easily resisted (this only doesn't matter on the specs set, but you should have enough speed on your team to beat it), which allows for players to play around it, by running things like ferrothorn or even tornadus. even things like jirachi can tank hydro pumps in rain and retaliate with thunder! furthermore, many pokemon can claim the "pursuit support brokenness" attribute - rotom-w + scizor, for example, breaks through rotom-w's counters even more easily than keldeo + scizor breaks through keldeo's counters.

it's a pokemon that puts a ton of pressure (if it has pursuit support, which it almost always should have), but i don't think it's broken.

ps: tailwind + specs keldeo is devastating

[Deluks917]

Rain also hurts the Scizor pursuit plan. with rain up scizor cannot reliably pursuit Lati@s if they run surf.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

the biggest problem with keldeo that i've seen is that it wants ttar for pursuit support (ttar is superior to scizor in terms of pursuit support), but it also wants rain so that it can spam an incredibly strong hydro pump. the biggest thing about it that could make it broken is the ease on which you can damage its counters with pursuit support - for example, if you run scarf keldeo + scizor then any player that tries to check keldeo with latias will almost always lose.

This may be true for the Scarf Keldeo, but not for the Specs Keldeo. After Tyranitar traps and defeat all Keldeo's counters, Keldeo can spam powerful Hydro Pumps that are still very powerful even without rain. While it's true that Keldeo will be outsped by things like Tornadus-T, none of those revenge killers can actually switch-in, as very few are likely to survive Hydro Pump. Although I agree that Hydro Pump is like an atomic bomb under rain.

[SlimMan]

I've said my piece (peace?) about the two suspects already, so I won't have any lengthy posts detailing why I think what I think. Although honestly, I am a little sad that no one discussed my main point: about how Dugtrio and Tornadus are similar. :(

Anyway, ignoring most of the arguments in the thread, I wanted to point out a couple instances of hypocrisy which I found (in my opposition, of course, not on my own side).

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

So does Latias and Celebi, but people think that Banded Tyranitar makes it broken, which is a shitty arguement imo because I could just as easily predict the double switch and go into Duggy or SubSalac Terrakion or Double Dance Landy-T or w/e as easily as my opponent can try to trap me.

See, I don't like this. Pro-Uber people have frequently mentioned that Dugtrio/Magnezone can easily eliminate Jirachi (who Tornadus does NOT wear down over the course of a match due to Wish), and then they say this. I don't mean to point you out Shurtugal, because I don't remember which individual people said what, I am making generalizations about your side of the argument.

Anyway, if prediction and double-swiches are a valid means of playing around Keldeo, then why is playing around Tornadus not an option? Why do I ALWAYS have to switch in my Jirachi or Rotom-W on a Hurricane, get U-Turned on the next turn, and be facing a counter then? I wonder why I can play around every threat except Tornadus-T.
Hint: the answer is not his insane power, because Keldeo under rain is a lot stronger than Torn-T's Hurricanes

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

However, 1v1, Keldeo has so many amazing checks / counters so I don't see the problem.

So does Tornadus-T. It's just that every time someone uses one of them, Torn-T teleports into a counter to it (which, by the way, the Torn-T has a counter for every single one of its own counters, and none of them can be worn down either).

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Banded Tyranitar is a shitty argument since both players can play well enough around it.

Basically, see what I wrote above. If this is the case, then I never want to hear about Dugtrio/Magnezone trapping a Jirachi again. I also want to start hearing more about playing around Tornadus, because your post implies to me that clearly that's a valid option against offensive juggernauts. Again, not picking on you Shurt, just the sweeping statements I've seen from Pro-Uber people.

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

however, keldeo is weak in the sense that it is frail and that its individual moves are easily resisted

>Says that Keldeo is frail
>Pro-Uber people praise Torn-T's bulk
>Keldeo has better defenses than Tornadus
What's wrong with this picture?

Also, Tornadus's individual moves are also easily resisted. Hurricane has the exact same number of resists in OU as Draco Meteor. Focus Blast/Superpower have... I lost count after 20 resists in OU.

Now, we both know that Hurricane is a better move than Draco Meteor. And we both know that Focus Blast/Superpower destroy most of the things that can eat a Hurricane. But if you use the phrase "individual moves"... you can't expect me not to point it out, can you?

one last thing that bothered me

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Originally Posted by Fat Shokwav

Latias is bottom OU (seriously, the sub CM is broke as hell).

Humbly requesting that before posting in this thread, all users are educated on what the word "broken" means in competitive gaming.

edit: yo, myzozoa and Cherub reminded me that I forgot to post my reqs. Do any of the people whom I just harassed want to tell me how to get a screenshot into the internet?

[Shurtugal]

The fact that Torn-T gets confusion hax allows it to muscle through counters like sand veil for Garchomp, hence Torn-T beating its counters. Also, U-turn + Sr damage + Hurricane makes Wash not bulky enough to switch into another cane unless it can somehow pain split. However, that's 1v1. Latias vs Keledo is borked since Latias always wins. This is not the case for Torn-T, which can confuse muscle his (probably only) counter on the opposition and clear sweep.

The only exception is Zappy, which smogon has cleared up as too gimmicky to consider.

And also -- double switches won't work on Torn-T because of Regenerator.

As for screenshot: ctrl + prnt scrn should do it, paste into paint and upload as a picture on online sharing like photobucket.

[SlimMan]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

The fact that Torn-T gets confusion hax allows it to muscle through counters like sand veil for Garchomp, hence Torn-T beating its counters. Also, U-turn + Sr damage + Hurricane makes Wash not bulky enough to switch into another cane unless it can somehow pain split. However, that's 1v1. Latias vs Keledo is borked since Latias always wins. This is not the case for Torn-T, which can confuse muscle his (probably only) counter on the opposition and clear sweep.

The only exception is Zappy, which smogon has cleared up as too gimmicky to consider.

And also -- double switches won't work on Torn-T because of Regenerator.

As for screenshot: ctrl + prnt scrn should do it, paste into paint and upload as a picture on online sharing like photobucket.

Not sure why Rotom-W even came up there, because I don't think I ever mentioned it. However, you have a fair point. In the same vein as how Garchomp could beat most of its checks on a 20% chance, Tornadus can beat most of its checks on a 15% chance. Frankly though, I don't think this pushes Tornadus-T over the edge because Sand Veil worked against everything, whilst Hurricane's confusion only works against targets he has hit with Hurricane (ie not revenge-killers, see two paragraphs down).

Ah, there it is. Regenerator comes up. But how exactly does Regenerator prevent double-switches from working? You can't wear Tornadus down using them. But you can still put yourself in a favorable position. How is Regenerator going to stop his Ferrothorn from facing a Heatran, or whatever the situation might be? Its not just about Tornadus. Getting in a favorable position in the battle is also useful.

Now, Tornadus-T can switch out of revenge-killers risk-free because of Regenerator (because Pusuit isn't on any revenge-killer that is even vaguely common). But this is where I was talking about playing around Tornadus. If you can play around a BandTar and Keldeo, then why can't you play around a Tornadus-T? Why can't my (obviously) Scarfed Keldeo use Secret Sword against the Ferrothorn your Tornadus-T is going to switch into? Tornadus-T makes doing that MUCH riskier than doing it against other Pokemon. But it's a legitimate way to play around Torn-T, and I feel like it's hypocritical for people to bring up playing around Keldeo, but ignore it for Tornadus.

Also, thank you for helping me with the screenshot, Shurt.

my reqs

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Confirming as Serapai

[Shurtugal]

Because Tornadus-T used Protect on Keldeo. Too many options to beat its checks imo.

As for regenerator, that's how it "outlives" it's counters and checks, thus making double switches, in a way, a double-edged sword.

[SlimMan]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Because Tornadus-T used Protect on Keldeo. Too many options to beat its checks imo.

As for regenerator, that's how it "outlives" it's counters and checks, thus making double switches, in a way, a double-edged sword.

Protect would work in that case. But Protect can literally do that for almost any offensive Pokemon who is checked by Scarfers. Tornadus is a great user of Protect, but no better of a user than something like Terrakion. Nothing sets it apart from the pack in that regard, which is why I generally ignore Protect. Also, I can't resist the urge to say that if it carries Protect then Chansey beats it. But just pretend I did resist the urge to say it, alright?

I'll admit, if you're switching in... let's say a Jirachi for ease of argument, and then double-switching out of Tornadus, then your Jirachi just took Spikes damage and did not heal it off with Wish. Whereas their Tornadus-T did heal off its SR damage. But who's to say that the Pokemon Tornadus-T switched into didn't also take Spikes damage? I'd happily wear down my Jirachi by 12%, in order to wear down your Jirachi-counter by 12%. In addition, the double-switch is most likely giving you more momentum than the hazards damage you took was worth. It goes without saying that double-switching is dangerous and can screw you over, but I took out your Keldeo discussion that it was a valid means of beating threats.

[Shurtugal]

That's why I said it was a double edged sword because of Reg. The switch still gets a bad position but Torn heals. Also, Torn will usually U-Turn > Double Switch, grabbing momentum. Also, Blissey and Chansey are kinda ass.... but please forget I had the urge to say that :)

Also, Protect Terrakion was a legitimate set when introduced in BW1, but how many Pokemon can use it as good as Rak and Torn besides stall Pokemon? Like zero imo, cause take double dance Thundy-T. It's RK'ed if you get it on one boost, but protect waste coverage whereas TornT has a free fourth slot to deal with all if its checks. That's why most offensive mons can't use protect -- they need the coverage whereas Rak and Torn don't.

Also, if Jira gets worn down to wear down the counter, than the Jira counter did its job imo..., brought it down to Hurricane range :[

My point is it has too many ways to defeat its checks, with Reg and confusion to muscle past counters.

[SlimMan]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

That's why I said it was a double edged sword because of Reg. The switch still gets a bad position but Torn heals. Also, Torn will usually U-Turn > Double Switch, grabbing momentum. Also, Blissey and Chansey are kinda ass.... but please forget I had the urge to say that :)

I was thinking that you would double-switch out of a Scarfer when Torn-T can't U-Turn, or you would double-switch into Tornadus in the first place.
Can't really talk about the blobs as I haven't used them in... BW2, but I will most definitely keep your secret if you keep mine ;)

Also, Protect Terrakion was a legitimate set when introduced in BW1, but how many Pokemon can use it as good as Rak and Torn besides stall Pokemon? Like zero imo, cause take double dance Thundy-T. It's RK'ed if you get it on one boost, but protect waste coverage whereas TornT has a free fourth slot to deal with all if its checks.

Eh, I never thought double-boosting Thundurus-T was much good. I don't see it sweeping the average team without Focus Blast and HP Ice. Although I'm sure there are many teams out there which it could sweep without one or the other.

Anyway, on topic, I'll grant you that not as many offensive Pokemon can use Protect as I implied. Gengar can use it pretty well... I've seen Virizion with it (that is, when Virizion actually existed in OU). Although I don't think your last statement is accurate. Tornadus-T does not have a "fourth slot to deal with all its checks". It has a fourth slot to deal with whichever check it pleases. Please don't say the word "all", when the correct word is "any one".

Also, if Jira gets worn down to wear down the counter, than the Jira counter did its job imo..., brought it down to Hurricane range :[

I assume we're still talking about LO Tornadus in which case "Hurricane range" is about 50% for Jirachi... I think that if hazards alone are able to take Jirachi down to 50%, then it's either a bad team matchup or the Jirachi player doesn't know how to use double-switches.

[Shurtugal]

My mistake, I meant whichever one it pleases. I was referring to when you said you'd happily allow Jira to take 12% if my Jira counter also takes 12% to hazards. I meant that imo the counter did its job since Rachi has to switch out of counter and take another 12% from hazards, thus being worn down and unable to magically wish.

[ginganinja]

Why do I ALWAYS have to switch in my Jirachi or Rotom-W on a Hurricane, get U-Turned on the next turn, and be facing a counter then? I wonder why I can play around every threat except Tornadus-T.

Because the Risk / Reward vs Tornadus is too high a price to pay. Because bringing in Breloom to tank a possible U-Turn is far too risky when it could very easily eat a Hurricane when you could have simply brought in your Hurricane resist. I am 2 tired to really go into this, and I already brought up Risk / Reward so many times in this thread its not even funny but this is the situation Tornadus-t puts you into, because it is utterly risk free to spam Hurricane, especially when you have regenerator to heal yourself. It is mindlessly easy, click Hurricane and U-Turn out, risk free, while the pressure is on the guy playing against Tornadus having to predict the Hurricane, having to predict the U-Turn (if it wants to avoid bringing in Jirachi time and time again. Again, I went through this many times before but thats why people struggle to play around Tornadus, which it doesn't really lose anything from just switching out, unlike most other pokemon in OU.

Good night

[qedragonite]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Because the Risk / Reward vs Tornadus is too high a price to pay. Because bringing in Breloom to tank a possible U-Turn is far too risky when it could very easily eat a Hurricane when you could have simply brought in your Hurricane resist. I am 2 tired to really go into this, and I already brought up Risk / Reward so many times in this thread its not even funny but this is the situation Tornadus-t puts you into, because it is utterly risk free to spam Hurricane, especially when you have regenerator to heal yourself. It is mindlessly easy, click Hurricane and U-Turn out, risk free, while the pressure is on the guy playing against Tornadus having to predict the Hurricane, having to predict the U-Turn (if it wants to avoid bringing in Jirachi time and time again. Again, I went through this many times before but thats why people struggle to play around Tornadus, which it doesn't really lose anything from just switching out, unlike most other pokemon in OU.

Good night

That is an elegant explanation of why Tornadus T is broken on a micro level. I tend to focus on why Tornadus T is broken on the macro level. In particular, his synergy with other rain sweepers. Absent Tornadus T, pokes like Celebi and Ferrothorn would do an excellent job of taking the rain boosted surfs and 100% accurate Thunders that drizzle teams spam. However, Tornadus T's hurricane gives rain a completely different angle from which to attack. This gives rain teams a huge edge over other playstyles, as it is difficult to build a core that can deal with all of the rain sweepers while preserving team synergy (other than a rain team of your own that includes jirachi to take hurricanes).

There are far fewer hurricane spammers than surf/thunder spammers, and the other hurricane users aren't nearly as deadly as Tornadus T (Tornadus I, Dragonite, and Volcarona are still good mind you). Therefore, the easiest way to make rain less overpowering and the metagame more balanced is to remove that extra dimension, by banning Tornadus T.

[taxi driver]

made reqs used sun and deo-d, here are my thoughts on both suspects

Torn-T: fits perfectly on rain teams any semi-good battler can abuse regenerator with little risk, pretty much impossible to kill if used by a skilled battler. It outspeeds any non-scarf ou mon bar jolteon and overpowers and already op style. It can do great damage to your team every time it switches in and at the worst will regain momentum for you opponent. choice specs can be devastating if used right

Keldeo: a threatening mon bought not really broken by any means, well made teams usually have a counter to it without even trying. compared to its brother Terrakion it actually has counters. A good mon but not uber