Doubles (3rd Topic in #899!)

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

You sure about that voodoo pimp?

252 Atk Charcoal Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 60+ Def Cresselia in sun: 247-292 (55.63 - 65.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Charcoal Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios in sun: 201-237 (66.55 - 78.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's an OHKO on Latios if you can give it Helping Hand support. Definitely worth having a move that's not fucked by Protect (HJK) or Wide Guard (Heat Wave), don't ya agree xP

Flare Blitz from Blaziken is almost like V-create Victini - you hit only one target, but you hit it HARD, probably gonna KO, too.

That's only accounting for raw power, though. Heat Wave means I don't have to choose a target and risk whiffing on Protect (I haven't seen a lot of Wide Guard, honestly), and the lack of recoil makes it a lot easier to take priority and switch into weak/resisted attacks. Also makes Intimidate less of a pain. Honestly, I think physical Blaziken and mixed Blaziken just play completely differently.

Speaking of switching, I've found that I personally have been switching a lot more than in VGC, probably because there's more teammates to switch to in any match. Example: me vs polop, two sun teams facing off. And if you had any doubts about Ninetales's value, just look at how much of an impact WoW had on that match.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat voodoo pimp

That's only accounting for raw power, though. Heat Wave means I don't have to choose a target and risk whiffing on Protect (I haven't seen a lot of Wide Guard, honestly), and the lack of recoil makes it a lot easier to take priority and switch into weak/resisted attacks. Also makes Intimidate less of a pain. Honestly, I think physical Blaziken and mixed Blaziken just play completely differently.

Speaking of switching, I've found that I personally have been switching a lot more than in VGC, probably because there's more teammates to switch to in any match. Example: me vs polop, two sun teams facing off. And if you had any doubts about Ninetales's value, just look at how much of an impact WoW had on that match.

I don't know about you, but I don't run Blaze until towards the end of a match as a cleaner. Usually paired with something like Volcarona which can Heatwave easily. Usually I run it to clear out what's left of the opponent's team, picking it off one by one.

As far as Ninetales, I prefer a Defensive Staller-type like WoW/Protect, but with some power behind it. But I agree, WoW is deadly when used correctly.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

I don't know about you, but I don't run Blaze until towards the end of a match as a cleaner. Usually paired with something like Volcarona which can Heatwave easily. Usually I run it to clear out what's left of the opponent's team, picking it off one by one.

Like I said, it can be played in different ways. Personally, I like to be able to bring it in multiple times throughout the match since it can KO or scare out so many things after a Speed Boost even without the extra power.

[DTC]

I have been trying Deoxys-Attack lately on a team catered around it. The team has 2 Rage Powder and Fake Out users, as well as an additional attacker. Deoxys-Attack is pretty fun to use, but it is very risky and takes over 30% from Cresselia's extremely weak Icy Wind. However, it does a ton of damage to most Pokemon. Unfortunately, it must be careful of Cresselia and Jirachi who are the most common supporters in Doubles from my experience. Few Pokemon can 2HKO both, with Volcarona being one of the few Pokemon that can. I'm also using Kangaskhan on this team, who is awesome for Scrappy Fake Out. Its stats are not too shabby either.

Here is a battle I had with the team.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat voodoo pimp

Like I said, it can be played in different ways. Personally, I like to be able to bring it in multiple times throughout the match since it can KO or scare out so many things after a Speed Boost even without the extra power.

Agreed on that scaring out bit. I love it against rain teams personally. Rock Slide, flare blitz, protect, sky uppercut = death to at least one or two Pokemon.

[OVERGRO]

I will keep an eye on this metagame! Once I get back into VGC or once VGC '13 concludes, I can see this metagame carving quite a nice niche!

Am I too excited? Maybe :)

[BlankZero]

Blank_Zero vs. Voodoo Pimp

for Pocket.

Another fun night of Doubles. This needs to be a freaking ladder already.

[Pocket]

Yes we played the FUCK out of Doubles last night xd - BlankZero, thanks for coming out for a fun evening ;d

BlankZero did quite a bit of testing, and one of the questions he wanted to answer - is SR good in Doubles? Here are some games where Stealth Rock may or may not have made an impact.

Pocket's Rain vs BlankZero's Sand : None of the kills needed required SR to attain, so it didn't help here.

BlankZero vs NixHex: I don't think SR helped here. For one, Scrafty would have died if Heatran also used Heat Wave alongside Chandelure instead of setting up Rocks. Against threats that SR may have mattered (Abomasnow / Froslass), BlankZero's Sun team can easily plow through without SR anyways.

Pocket's Goodstuff vs BlankZero's Sand: Lots of misses in this game from both sides. SR came in handy by putting Tornadus into a LO Rock Slide KO range. It also allowed Darkrai to lose enough health to die to sand damage (which actually helped me, since I was able to immediately switch into Tornadus to set up the crucial Tailwind).

I believe that unlike VGC, SR may see more use in 6 vs 6 Standard Doubles. However, not to the same extent as Singles, where it's almost mandatory to include one. Even though the games are notably longer than VGC's matches; there are considerably less switching in and out like Singles, making SR an unworthy investment most of the time, imo. Feel free to provide your assessment of SR's worth in Doubles ;d

Also another thing worth noting is the Sand playstyle that BlankZero experimented with. If you're gonna use a Sand team, pack a Grass and Water resist, cuz otherwise shit like Shaymin-S or Politoed can spam their STAB moves to victory.

[BlankZero]

I feel if my Hippo would have lasted more than a single turn after setting rocks, I could brought in some Phazing to help out with passive damage, but Hippo dies off quite fast in Doubles for some reason.

And yes, sand needs Water/Grass resists. Something like Heatran, Skarmory, Gastrodon, Gliscor, etc.

Another strategy that does well in Doubles is Gravity, especially when paired with Landorus T, as Doughboy showed me several times. Also, Sash Aerodactyl is an evil bastard in this Metagame.

[Audiosurfer]

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

I feel if my Hippo would have lasted more than a single turn after setting rocks, I could brought in some Phazing to help out with passive damage, but Hippo dies off quite fast in Doubles for some reason.

And yes, sand needs Water/Grass resists. Something like Heatran, Skarmory, Gastrodon, Gliscor, etc.

I feel like Gliscor was a mistake. On sand teams, I like using a Water-type and a Grass or Dragon type to cover Water/Grass. That usually covers any weaknesses I have to teams using those pretty well. Also, what do you guys think of Hippo vs Ttar?

Also Pocket don't say I didn't warn you about the might of Iron Ball Ninetales.

[OVERGRO]

I think rocks would only be usedul if your team was weak to pokemon that are SR weak, for example Volcarona or Zapdos.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat OVERGRO

I think rocks would only be usedul if your team was weak to pokemon that are SR weak, for example Volcarona or Zapdos.

Keep in mind that Thundurus-I, Skymin, Darkrai, and many other Normally-Sashed Pokemon can be used in doubles. Also, Volcarona in a Metagame where SR isn't common at all means it can come in with a sash as well, guarantee itself a QD and start spamming Sun Boosted Heat Waves.

SR isn't needed ALL the time expressly, but when it comes out early on, it can really foil some plans *cough*Aeroboss*cough*

[typon77]

Pocket vs. typon77

So Pocket and I just had a really strange battle. Although this battle isn't really warstory worthy due to a lot of hax on both sides as well as a few mistakes on my part, I thought this really stressed the importance of field effects. At various times in the match, there was perma-hail, trick room, rain dance rain, sunny day sun, and perma-rain up. This really showed how one can do much better against opposing weather by carrying weather changing moves in case a situation gets unfavorable. I'm posting a log because PS's replay generator is being weird.

EDIT: Got the replay

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat typon77

Pocket vs. typon77

So Pocket and I just had a really strange battle. Although this battle isn't really warstory worthy due to a lot of hax on both sides as well as a few mistakes on my part, I thought this really stressed the importance of field effects. At various times in the match, there was perma-hail, trick room, rain dance rain, sunny day sun, and perma-rain up. This really showed how one can do much better against opposing weather by carrying weather changing moves in case a situation gets unfavorable. I'm posting a log because PS's replay generator is being weird.

EDIT: Got the replay

That's because Pocket's team is an "Anti-Everything" Team :P

[Mr.lol]

Pocket vs. polop

The battle pretty much outlines how nice Offensive Rain is in the tier. Polop ends up struggling for a bit at first thanks to Darkrai and Focus Sash Abomasnow but manages to Recover by having Musharna use Trick Room. Which forces the match to come to whether or not Skymin can successfully flinch something.

Weather Wars continued till the end due to Dusknoir using Sunny Day. It pretty much shows how common / important weather wars are. Even when the weather inducer is down the wars rage on thanks to the fact just about every mon has a weather changing move X_X. Imprison's value is also seen here, it prevents Pocket from using Protect which forced some switches that were key in the match.

[BlankZero]

Blank_Zero Sand vs. Pwnemon Rain

Very haxy toward the end (lol Double Freeze), but proves how bulky Hippodown really is. Also, Swappign out Poli after the weather and using Rotom-W to Volt Switch back to it is genius. Props and GG Pwne.

[Pwnemon]

I was introduced to this tier today by bmelts and quickly slapped together a team which quickly accrued a streak of wins via magic. The most entertaining replay is probably here. GG reach.

So i was struck with a lot of ideas after only a few short matches that i'd like to share:

-Encore is a godly move in this meta, with all the stuff it can be used on. Encoring Pokemon into Protect is a personal favorite of mine; HH, Recovery, and many others are also fun.
-Despite being ostensibly a fast-paced meta, I doubt that it'd be wise to use glass cannons. Bulk has an added importance in Doubles.
-Weather has an... Interesting place in this meta. Almost every team has a weather starter; at the same time, if you make your team very weather-dependent you're begging to lose, because the weather can change every turn.
-Volt Switch and U-turn seem to be especially useful in Doubles.
-Spread Moves aren't all they're cracked up to be. I'm hardly panning them, but in many cases, it seems like it's not nearly worth the reduced BAP when a Pokemon is going to be protecting basically every action
-Protect /is/ all it's cracked up to be. I'd rather use protect-lefties recovery than Slack Off in this meta, honestly, considering your opponent can probably do more than 50% damage at any given time.
-The lack of steels makes dragons, especially Kyurem, fuckin sick

In all: this meta is focused on bulky attacking without boosting. i'd definitely like to play more

edit: another fun match, this time with solace.

also i had a really good one with typon where we bugtested two things in doubles unfortunately we broke the game so i couldnt save a replay

[Mdevil]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol

Victini has amazing potential in doubles !_!. It gets access to a ton of powerful moves like V-Create, Bolt Strike, and perhaps the most interesting one, Glaciate.

Something I didn't know until 5 minutes ago which will most likely cause you to take V-Create off of your Victini is that the move Searing Shot (100 BP[75 is doubles]) hits all enemies. Go nuts.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat Mdevil

Something I didn't know until 5 minutes ago which will most likely cause you to take V-Create off of your Victini is that the move Searing Shot (100 BP[75 is doubles]) hits all enemies. Go nuts.

It hits all other Pokémon, including the partner. With the 30% burn chance, the only time it's really safe to use it is when the partner is immune to or benefits from being burned (and doesn't take too much damage from the attack itself), or else you have to play around with Protect even more than usual.

And if it only hit opponents, then it'd still come down to the power vs utility debate we had with Blaziken a few posts back.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat voodoo pimp

It hits all other Pokémon, including the partner. With the 30% burn chance, the only time it's really safe to use it is when the partner is immune to or benefits from being burned (and doesn't take too much damage from the attack itself), or else you have to play around with Protect even more than usual.

And if it only hit opponents, then it'd still come down to the power vs utility debate we had with Blaziken a few posts back.

Pair with Heatran/Chandelure and Heat Wave spam.

[Audiosurfer]

Even then, that's just one mon in a team of six. Hopefully one doesn't use a team with alot of flash fire users or pokemon that benefit from burn, because at that rate you'll probably have a bad rain weakness (and even if you use bulky waters that could probably take the attack, they still wouldn't like the burn). So yeah, I'd say stay away from the move.

[NixHex]

NixHex v. Pwnemon

Double sand vs. rain. I think one point that must be stressed in 6v6 even moreso than VGC is the importance of resisting your teammate's multi-hit moves, or knowing when to Protect. Hitmontop Detecting against Lando-T while Politoed Surfed really did not do it any favors. U-turn + multi-hit is great in theory but there are just too many Pokemon that run Protect / Detect so you have to be extra careful. Anyway, GG Pwnemon, it was definitely a tense match.

[Pocket]

My thoughts on the past couple of games posted here:

typon77 vs Pocket: don't get your weather / tailwind / trick room setters die prematurely before their weather sweepers are gone ;x Losing my Dusknoir and Abomasnow early game didn't help me. I also should have kept Tornadus-I alive till the end of the game to summon Tailwind again, but it went down prematurely.

polop vs Pocket: I had control over the game in the beginning when i quickly toppled 3 of his mons, but then Imprison Musharna indeed butt-fucked me with its TR / Imprison nonsense. Not being able to use Protect forced me to switch out a lot, and one mis-switch against his Politoed cost me the game (I switched out Shaymin to my Heatran, expecting an Ice Beam, but he used Surf instead ;-l)

Pwnemon vs BlankZero: GG guys! Politoed's Surf + Absorb Bulb Ludicolo is a clever pair, Pwnemon! Your Conkeldurr was not to be messed, either, but you were probably better off with Flame Orb > Toxic Orb, since the toxic poison quickly added up in that game. Some intense maneuvers, such as Rotom-W volt-turn back to Politoed, to seize control of the weather. Not quite sure what Blissey does in doubles, since the opponent's special sweeper can easily target Blissey's partner instead.

Pwnemon vs reachzero: More cool Volt Switch action and Blissey inaction from Pwnemon's team ;d I am honestly surprised that Volt-Turn still sees use in Doubles, but I guess the 6 vs 6 format makes it more useful than in VGC? Kyu-B was quite fierce in that game, too! Although you have Encore on Politoed, another option would be Rain Dance, so you don't need to switch out Politoed every time the weather changes.

Something in that game struck me as odd, however - on turn 6 Pwnemon switched his Politoed to bring back rain, but Ludicolo moved after Kyurem. It seems that Swift Swim doesn't activate on the same turn the downpour begins? Or is this a bug?

Pwnemon vs hexasexual: Dayum, Heal Pulse Blissey xD You proved me wrong, good sir! Man, I thought Solace had it won when she took out your Ludicolo, but your Blissey turned the tables quite drastically :0

Nixhex vs Pwnemon: Seems like you ditched Blissey for the more conventional Landorus-T. This game shows the flaw of Outrage in doubles - the player loses the freedom to choose targets. Plus confusion hax is probably even worse in doubles, too.

There are some many alternative options over Outrage. Assuming your Kyurem-B have Dragon Claw / Fusion Bolt / Protect, you still have Rock Slide, Roost, Power Herb Freeze Burn, and Blizzard. Surprisingly, Kyurem-B learns Imprison, so you can even run a utility set like Dragon Claw - Protect - Imprison - Icy Wind / Blizzard, etc.

Also SR presents itself once again in this match. For this game, it did a notably good damage on Zapdos, possibly shortening its duration by a whole turn. Still not sure if that's worth a turn setting up Rocks, though ;/

Intense game all-around, guys! Also, Pwnemon GJ beasting Doubles in a very short amount of time!

[BlankZero]

Here's another Pwnemon Game.

Blank's Sun Team VS Pwne's Rain Team

May god help us all, that team is ridiculous.

[NixHex]

I think hazards are a curious case in Doubles. Unlike VGC where you are making very few switches, 6 v 6 forces you to use your whole team. If you need to restart your weather or if your scarfer is locked into an unfavorable move, you'll definitely be switching. Stealth Rock in particular keeps Volcarona at bay and annoys the shit out of Ninetales and Abomasnow. I'll likely try a Heatran set of Stealth Rock / Heat Wave / Earth Power / Protect|Sub and see how it works out.