np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[Hugin]

Are you sure you phrased Keldeo right? Everything you said seems like a reason why it wouldn't be uber.

[TooMuchSugar]

I think Keldeo might be the wrong pokemon to test for rain abuse, just because...
+----------------------------------------+
| Keldeo |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates |
| Politoed 40.418% |
+----------------------------------------+

If 60% of keldeo are outside of rain, then I think it's safe to say it is more than just a rain abuser, unlike Tornadus-T.
+----------------------------------------+
| Tornadus-Therian |
+----------------------------------------+
| Teammates |
| Politoed 83.353% |
+----------------------------------------+
Aside from the fact that Keldeo seems to be easier to counter than Torny, it is also not as dependent on rain, which is the point of this test.

That said, I think Tornadus-T should stay too, just because it isn't too difficult to counter with the right pokemon. I'm probably not the right person to discuss these counters, just because I'm sort of an average battler, so I'll leave the Tornadus-T discussion alone.

[Shurtugal]

Why isn't toed 100% for Torn?!?

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Why isn't toed 100% for Torn?!?

I don't know, but I've heard of a guy that was using a sun team with Tornadus-T to check rain teams.

[nyczxjay]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Why isn't toed 100% for Torn?!?

Some people also run Rain Dance Tornadus-T on weatherless teams to fuck over other weathers since the last moveslot is essentially filler. Kinda like when people packed that Hail Starmie a while ago...

[Subject 18]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

I don't know, but I've heard of a guy that was using a sun team with Tornadus-T to check rain teams.

This is a thing? How much success does he have with that?

[LilOuOn]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackRussian

This is a thing? How much success does he have with that?

Usually people use their weather inducers as death fodders once they see that the opposing team is weatherless. Once this happens you can freely set up the rain with Tornadus and end like a boss, the succeed of this technique depends on the situation.

[Deluks917]

Maybe some of the tornadus use in on manual weather teams?

[Lohgock]

I had a sun team featuring Tornadus-T at the beginning of BW2 with Air Slash / Superpower / Heat Wave / U-Turn. Air Slash didn't hit that hard like Hurricane does but mons like Jirachi weren't able to counter Tornadus properly anymore because Heat Wave does a lot in sun. It was nice to use and such, but didn't have the potential Tornadus-T has in rain. Anyway, I used it with decent success and it was kinda fun, so that proves Poli doesn't have to be Tornadus partner, however, in most cases it's really better if Poli is instead of Ninetales or whatever.

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat LilOuOn

Usually people use their weather inducers as death fodders once they see that the opposing team is weatherless. Once this happens you can freely set up the rain with Tornadus and end like a boss, the succeed of this technique depends on the situation.

That doesn't really work in practice. A seasoned player should always know something like that is up when Tornadus doesn't have weather support.

[Lohgock]

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

That doesn't really work in practice. A seasoned player should always know something like that is up when Tornadus doesn't have weather support.

Beside that, any team should have a Tornadus counter and since no weather includer can counter it, there will be another mon in their team to do this job. Also people are aware that even though they have their own weather include it isn't guaranteed their weather is actually up so they have a way to defeat Tornadus if rain should be on the battlefield.

[Vemane]

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

That doesn't really work in practice. A seasoned player should always know something like that is up when Tornadus doesn't have weather support.

Tbh, I'd just be like, "Oh... another one of /those/ ladder battles..."

Though that doesn't mean toad (which, by the way, is the most common inducer, so rain dance to cancel weather is stupid) is going to get sacked turn 1... it just won't be played as cautiously.

Now ninetales... I'd sack that bitch just for being such a bitch

[SlimMan]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

My mistake, I meant whichever one it pleases. I was referring to when you said you'd happily allow Jira to take 12% if my Jira counter also takes 12% to hazards. I meant that imo the counter did its job since Rachi has to switch out of counter and take another 12% from hazards, thus being worn down and unable to magically wish.

Eh, yeah, that prevents Jirachi from healing itself and makes it take more hazard damage. I just think that if you're careful enough with Jirachi and that if you use the predict at the right time, then it won't be enough damage to make a difference. Although seeing as how I didn't use Jirachi in the test, I don't speak from experience.

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Because the Risk / Reward vs Tornadus is too high a price to pay. Because bringing in Breloom to tank a possible U-Turn is far too risky when it could very easily eat a Hurricane when you could have simply brought in your Hurricane resist. I am 2 tired to really go into this, and I already brought up Risk / Reward so many times in this thread its not even funny but this is the situation Tornadus-t puts you into, because it is utterly risk free to spam Hurricane, especially when you have regenerator to heal yourself. It is mindlessly easy, click Hurricane and U-Turn out, risk free, while the pressure is on the guy playing against Tornadus having to predict the Hurricane, having to predict the U-Turn (if it wants to avoid bringing in Jirachi time and time again. Again, I went through this many times before but thats why people struggle to play around Tornadus, which it doesn't really lose anything from just switching out, unlike most other pokemon in OU.

I agree with your assessment of Torn-T's impact on Risk/Reward ginga. It skews it in favor of the Torn-T player, just like you said. That was where my Dugtrio-comparison ultimately ended up. What I disagree with is the conclusion you drew from your assessment.

It's so safe for Tornadus to always just click Hurricane, because Regenerator basically negates the need to predict anything, ever. So Tornadus-T has pretty no reason not to click Hurricane when it comes in. And that's why you're always having to go for the Rotom-W or Jirachi or whatever. But if I have even one Pokemon that I'm willing to sac, then I maintain my ability to screw around with Tornadus for a few turns. Honestly, an example's not coming to me right now, but I had one earlier so that I know that there are examples out there somewhere. The only time that you truly cannot do anything about Tornadus-T is when you need all 6 of your Pokemon alive, and you can't afford to sac anything. Torn-T almost always turns that situation into a win for his player (although a lot of other things do too).

ginga, you'll find that I'm all about me, me, me. So I'm going to talk about myself now, if that's alright.
I used a few different teams while laddering, but the one I used most was a balanced Sand team with specially defensive Hippo, and Scarf Terrakion, and a Bronzong. I actually didn't even like the team, but I wanted an excuse to use the cutest Ground type in existence. But that's irrelevant. My point is that on my team, I think Bronzong was the only thing which could actually switch into Tornadus, and it lacked recovery obviously. So my question is, how on earth did I beat Tornadus?
Seeing as how Tornadus is "excellent at keeping his own weather up" and so Hippo's sand was not a reliable answer. And Bronzong would "just keep getting U-Turned out of, until it died". And "Torn-T would just switch out of my Scarfer at no penalty due to Regenerator". Now, I'll grant you, about 70% of the Tornadus's I met were played pretty badly, but that leaves me with about 30% of well-played Tornadus-T's.
No, I am not saying that Tornadus should be OU because you have to have a brain to use it well. I'm just saying that it's not as universally dominating as I think is implied from the Ubers camp. You guys keep making great points about things it can do, but those things don't always pan out for it.

And uhh... I can't remember what else I was gonna say, so conclusion time! I think of Tornadus as being simply a better version of Mienshao. A version of Mienshao that doesn't get out-sped by a bunch of things, that has better bulk, and where Jellicent=Jirachi. Those are the two things that make Mienshao just another decent Fighting-type, and make Torn-T potentially Uber. But in my mind, they just aren't enough to push for a ban.

[Novaray]

Got my reqs.

Tornadus-T - This thing is just devastating on any type of rain team. Easily rips apart teams that are not prepared for it and even those that are. Checks like Rotom-W are easily worn down before this thing can come in and 2HKO it with Hurricane. What makes this thing even more dangerous is its Speed that allows it to outspeed previous top speed tier Pokemon such as Latios and Alakazam. Regenerator is too easily abused on this thing, U-turning whenever it wants and not having to fear Stealth Rock

Keldeo - The pony is a huge threat to any teams that aren't prepared for it. However, it cannot not destroy teams as easily as Tornadus-T can. There are a number of solid checks to Keldeo such as Celebi, Jellicent, and Toxicroak. Most of the Keldeos I saw were the Choice Scarf variant which are great late game cleaners if the checks are appropriated. Ironically I believe its most dangerous set is the Sub+Calm Mind one but I did not see any of these while laddering.

[Halcyon of Light]

I've been using Specs Tornadus-T on my team lately, and I have to say that if you get full hazards on the opponent's field, it becomes ridiculously easy to take out their Pokemon in this offensive metagame. Even Jirachi won't like taking 31% + Hurricane damage (about 25%) on every switch in. With full hazards, he can only come in once to absorb Hurricane. If you can set up hazards and then save your Tornadus for late game, the opponent will be very hard pressed to actually do anything to stop your sweep.

[gamerno1]

Originally Posted by Fat Halcyon of Light

I've been using Specs Tornadus-T on my team lately, and I have to say that if you get full hazards on the opponent's field, it becomes ridiculously easy to take out their Pokemon in this offensive metagame. Even Jirachi won't like taking 31% + Hurricane damage (about 25%) on every switch in. With full hazards, he can only come in once to absorb Hurricane. If you can set up hazards and then save your Tornadus for late game, the opponent will be very hard pressed to actually do anything to stop your sweep.

Virtually anything can sweep with a full set of hazards up, heck I've phazed teams to death with skarmory. Rapid spin exists for a reason.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat gamerno1

Virtually anything can sweep with a full set of hazards up, heck I've phazed teams to death with skarmory. Rapid spin exists for a reason.

Sorry, I know I'm on the "ban side," but that wasn't meant to mean he was broken, I just meant that it's been crazy fun sweeping teams with full hazards. Either way, and this has already been said, Tornadus-T is a fantastic late game cleaner in addition to a wall breaker.

On a different note, I've seen a lot of swift swimmers running around, which do give Tornadus-T problems because they prevent him from outright sweeping, though in most cases, Ferrothorn can walk swift swimmers to hell and back, so it hasn't really been a problem.

[nyczxjay]

I made reqs a while ago (not posting screenshot here) so I guess I'll chime in as well on my thoughts of the suspects. Also, I'm not sure if this makes a difference (probably doesn't) but I only used a sun team this entire test.

Tornadus-T: In a nutshell, it's fast, strong, and annoying. It hits like a truck in the rain and very difficult to wear down (if not impossible) without SR present. That being said, I feel that the only characteristics that anyone can use to argue its "uberness" is its trollish 121 speed and Regenerator because when it comes to power, Tornadus-I's Hurricane hits a lot harder. However, despite its great ability and speed, I've actually never had too much trouble dealing with it throughout this suspect test and can count the amount of times I lost to a well-played Torn-T on only one hand.

Though my opinion may change, as of right now, I feel that Torn-T is handled relatively well in this metagame, as I never had to jump through hoops and hurdles to deal with it. The only reason why I would want to ban it right now would only be because I think it's "annoying" and I just don't want to be bothered dealing with it anymore. And IMO, just because you feel something is "annoying" doesn't warrant its ban.

EDIT: Or I guess another reason I would want to ban Tornadus-T would be because I want to weaken rain teams as a whole. It might be a breath of fresh air for the meta... hmm.... #randomthought

Keldeo: This thing is not broken in any way, shape, or form. The end.