np: UU Stage 11 - Apocalypse Please

[hilarious]

For the record important tier differences from po and ps include chansey and snow warning being legal on ps ONLY while kyurem-black is legal ONLY on po. Plus kblack and froslass is being suspected on po hehe. There are other tier differences but nothing I believe that affects legality (as in bisharp is like nu on po but is still perfectly legal in uu here and there)

metagross usage has risen to ou again on po.

Also you guys need to try endure liechi berry hitmonlee its really good!!!! actually i never tried it myself but it always sweeps me LOL and a +1 200 base power reversal hits like much much harder than anything wimpy fake out hitmonlee can do and actually i believe it hits a bit harder than cb reckless hjk from mienshao...which can ohko heracross with sr sometime loool. Plus if you are paranoid of priority you can use mach Punch on him to hehe. things like Rhyperior which used to check Hitmonlee so it couldnt sweep me now get brutally OHKOd. not surprising since hitmonlee can also ohko physically defensive zapdos after sr with reversal lolololol

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Originally Posted by Fat hilarious

Also you guys need to try endure liechi berry hitmonlee its really good!!!! actually i never tried it myself but it always sweeps me LOL and a +1 200 base power reversal hits like much much harder than anything wimpy fake out hitmonlee can do and actually i believe it hits a bit harder than cb reckless hjk from mienshao...which can ohko heracross with sr sometime loool. Plus if you are paranoid of priority you can use mach Punch on him to hehe. things like Rhyperior which used to check Hitmonlee so it couldnt sweep me now get brutally OHKOd. not surprising since hitmonlee can also ohko physically defensive zapdos after sr with reversal lolololol

It would certainly be a big blast to the past if Endure + Liechi/Salac + Flail/Reversal got popular in competitive battling again! It used to be a fairly commonly used strategy when I first joined Smogon in Gen III, but people had stopped using it seriously by the time Gen IV started.

Even on Heracross people used to do it, since it would also get a Swarm boost on Megahorn too (similar on Blaziken with Fire Blast). I don't think it would be as easy to pull off in this metagame as it was back then though. Obviously it's easier with Hitmonlee because of Unburden though.

[cim]

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

^ well the Baton Pass + Shelll Smash complex ban exist in RU and below which affects 2 pokemon, that the closest thing I can think of. But I'm happy with either ban.

The ban is on the two moves existing together on any pokemon. I do not want pokemon to become a game of "we should ban x on x and y on y and z on z" to achieve some impossible to reach perfectly balanced metagame.

[Ace Emerald]

I've played with Chansey a little bit today, and I've got to say, it played just as I thought. It's single handedly made a stall team viable. It is more than the glue of the team, it is the team. The team is purely designed to add to Chansey's bulk and cover its weaknesses. Forget Gligar + Chansey, Cofagrigus/Chansey/Zapdos is a crazy stall core. Add hazards, Blastoise for spinning and Darmanitan/Victini insurance, and whatever else (maybe something good vs Ghosts) and you are set. I find myself switching to Chansey so often, because it simply won't die. It just forces switches, throws status, and heals its teammates. I won't say anything 100% right now, but nothing has convinced me that Chansey is fit for UU in the slightest.

[LionKingMax]

So we have Chansey on PS and Kyurem-B on PO...

Screw UU for a while until everything goes back to normal, Chansey is just a ridiculous tank that can even take on heracross Close Combat. Granted it doesnt have Lefties but man, even Gligar is jealous of dat bulk.

[Jeffbelittle]

This is my first post, but I literally only play UU so... why not man. Try to take me seriously.

Chansey's entrance into UU has quite simply over-centralized the metagame. It's not exactly hard to figure out that when a pokemon has THAT much health, access to eviolite, and a slew of defensive/healing abilities-> it's just simply too much for UU to not say "...yeah, could probably use that".

That being said: that doesn't make Chansey necessarily overpowered. A metagame overcentralized around a wall isn't really a step down from every team and their stop mother having a Heracross or a counter specifically to use AGAINST Heracross.

But... I didn't say he/she wasn't overpowered. I can't honestly say I've played the amount of games necessary to deem that. I think if there needs to be a suspect test, Chansey is the prime candidate.

P.S.: Abomasnow isn't too powerful. He simply makes a team style (Weather : Hail) slightly less painful to run in a metagame where there's Victini/Darmanitan/Mienshao/Heracross/Hitmontop/Arcanine..... I mean basically every crazy strong Fighting/Fire type that plague UU. He's a "less" wasted slot. If you have him: people know you'll use him first... that's a big disadvantage for a Pokemon that isn't particularly super fast when many pokemon have a STAB ultra-effective attack against him.

[Super Mario Bro]

From my experience laddering yesterday, Abomasnow has breathed significant life into hail teams since its unban. Unlike Snover, he's actually capable of doing stuff (in my case, I like using him as a SubSeeder on my stall team). Whether it's a good thing or not that hail has a greater presence is completely subjective, but I have noticed that some teams are harmed more than others by the residual damage. Walls aren't able to eat Status as well and Choiced Pokes can't come in as often, especially if hazards are also down.

The good thing about hail is that the residual damage isn't usually one-sided, unlike sand, since it's difficult to run more than two ice-types on a team without sacrificing a lot of defensive synergy. Sand teams can easily run 4 Steels, Grounds, and Rocks and still have good enough synergy.

As for Chansey, I think she needs to be examined in a suspect test. She is annoying and hard to kill, but she adds diversity to the tier, and is somewhat overwhelmed by the variety of good fighting-types as well as the presence of Taunt. Also, hail's presence makes her slightly less effective as a wall.

[Bent1ey]

I find it amusing that Abomasnow and Chansey were brought into the format at the same time, considering that the pink blob suffers from the effect of improved hail because of its glaring lack of Leftovers. Obviously an actually competent Hail settler introduces more of an actual danger than it's lowly prevolution ever could.

Or you could run both Snover and Abomasnow for increased crazyness! (kidding)

[FlareBlitz]

Apocalypse Please is such a good song.

You know what you guys really need to start to using in this metagame? CB Scrafty with Intimidate. It's one of the best utility Pokemon in the game - powerful, perfect dual STAB coverage, Intimidate to stop countless physical threats from sweeping, excellent matchups against Hail and stall...it's an excellent, underrated set.

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

^ well the Baton Pass + Shelll Smash complex ban exist in RU and below which affects 2 pokemon, that the closest thing I can think of. But I'm happy with either ban.

Just for the sake of clarity, it actually affects three Pokemon; Huntail, Gorebyss and Smeargle, none of whom are close to broken on their own.

[Super Mario Bro]

If Chansey goes and Abomasnow stays, I think Clefable would be a really good alternative to Umbreon as a special tank. It learns many of the same moves (plus Softboiled, which frees up a slot on some sets), walls most of the same things, and is immune to residual damage.

[kokoloko*]

Hey guys, can we move all the Chansey discussion to the Chansey thread? Thanks.

I moved all the posts, but seriously, keep the Chansey talk in the Chansey thread.

[fatty]

that cb scrafty sounds really interesting, flareblitz, you've got me curious. i've been meaning to try scrafty but always thought dd was very underwhelming with having to waste a turn or even two to get any kind of meaningful power behind it. cb hjk gives that immediate power though, and still allows it to retain that vaunted bulk and longevity combined with intimidate to create what seems like a great utility mon. if you don't mind, what have you been using it with? a bulkier zapdos with volt switch / heat wave / hp grass / roost seems like a good partner, being able to switch into things like slowbro and heracross, while also luring in and pivoting out of snorlax and chansey, giving some free turns for hjk spam. a pursuiter like cb weavile or scarf krook seems like it could also help a lot.

in terms of what i've been using, i've been messing around with an array of a bunch of different teamstyles ranging from full stall to offensive spikestacking, but i've had the most success (reaching #2 under adolescence) with a BO team utilizing bulky sd scyther. while never really pulling off a sweep, scyther gave my team great resists and momentum through u-turn, and if i could keep sr off the field, usually kept the match in my favor. i can't help but feel that it was dead weight a lot of the time though, so i can't say i recommend it too much.

[Super Mario Bro]

I wonder why I'm not seeing many hail teams on the ladder, since they have so much potential. If you tinker with some of the moveslots, you can make it so the residual damage doesn't hurt your team as badly. For example, I've been using Clefable on my stall team, and she's able to tank plenty of strong special attackers, absorb status, and pass Wishes -- all while being immune to hail. Of course, she doesn't fit on every hail team, but there are plenty of other options at your disposal to make the residual damage an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

Also, Walrein sucks. It doesn't contribute any defensive synergy to hail, and his job as annoyer is done even better by Abomasnow himself. This is the set I've been using, and it occasionally wins games all by itself:

Abomasnow (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 96 SDef / 48 Spd
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Blizzard
- Substitute

I find that outspeeding Umbreon is good enough in terms of speed, but you can go for Milotic if you'd like, since certain things in that speed tier are pretty bothersome. You do give up noticeable bulk, though.

The strategy is simple: set up a Sub on something slower than Abomasnow or something faster that you can force out, and begin the SubSeeding. Protect annoys Choiced Pokemon big time, and lets you garner extra Leech Seed & Leftovers recovery. The residual damage on your opponent's side builds up really quickly.

I haven't played with hail offense yet, but I've faced a few of them and they are nasty. SubSplit Life Orb Rotom-F completely ruined me once.

Cheers to the burgeoning UU playstyle!

[hilarious]

walrein can phaze and walrein can immediately sub protect without wasting a turn to leech seed so i wouldn't say she sucks, i wouldn't even say she's mediocre or bad, i would say she's good if overreliant on support and set up time.

and flareblitz says walrein can run an attacking set with superfang so try that hmmmm??!?!

anyways my question is froslass is broken yes/no!?!??!!?!?!!? i personally don't think it is but po looks like its about to ban it despite my posts against it D: D: D: and their uu tier is now with chansey gone almost exactly the same except they don't have to deal with snow warning and abomasnow is completely ou and roserade is also bl.

my problem with this is all my teams (i'll be posting all of them on the rmt section soon so look out c:) aboooooose froslass (idk maybe this is a bad thing).

you might not want me to clutter this forum with po related stuff but i dunno i prefer their uu tier right now much more than smogon's (you barely even notice roserade is gone and random walrein's don't snipe offensive teams on the ladder) and i found it strange they find froslass broken while nobody on these forums even mentioned anything about that!!!!!

[Super Mario Bro]

The bans on Roserade and Froslass are definitely bizarre. I don't even understand what PO was thinking, since they are really the only things that breathe life into spikestacking teams, which aren't broken.

I think the meta is fine right now. Though, it would be better without the trio of insanely powerful Fire-types (Chandelure, Victini, and Darmanitan), since they are so difficult to wall and are at least partly responsible for making the tier as offensive as it is.

[DestinyUnknown]

Yeah Froslass and Roserade (lol wtf) are definitely not broken, by any means. Saying Roserade is broken is especially stupid as I don't think it's more than just mediocre in the current metagame. Froslass is better, but again nowhere near broken. Don't pay much attention to PO tiering anyway, they have made a lot of silly decisions lately (such as the Kingdra ban, Smeargle's ban or the Roserade ban long ago).

[kokoloko*]

Those three bans you mentioned at the end were advocated by me when I led the tier over there, just sayin'.

You really shouldn't compare the two metagames anyway, there was a reason behind every single ban PO has made, just like there is a reason behind every ban we have made. Just because the Pokemon in the tier are the same, it does not mean battles willplay out in a similar manner--the playerbase has just as much effect on the metagame as the Pokemon in it.

Roserade was beyond broken when we decided to ban it on PO. The defensive nature of the PO UU metagame (it used to be very defensive) made it far too easy for it lay Spikes (like... easier than Deoxys-D). Kingdra wasn't nearly as silly as you're making it out to be, considering we suspected it ourselves. Smeargle was banned solely because of SmashPass... which again, was facilitated by the defensive nature of the metagame it was banned in.

I know the current tier leader has been trying to get Smeargle and Roserade unbanned lately, due to the metagame shifting towards a more offensive one, but the playerbase is against it.

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up. Let's not bring up PO tiering anymore.

[Mew]

It should be said that SubCM Raikou is extremely powerful in this metagame. Although it's become predictable, people somehow never carry enough counters/checks to it. Then there's the fact that one can carry other powerhouses such as Kingdra or Chandelure, which clear the way for Raikou and can sweep themselves.

I also think Nidoking is the best SR setter. It's not just a one-time pony as it can still hit pretty much the whole metagame with just 3 moves. It works especially well against stall teams in my experience.

And I still can't believe how little Rotom-H is used. With a scarf or Specs attached, it has the opportunity to defeat or cripple almost every opposing Pokemon with either powerful STABs, an unexpected HP Grass and Trick. Use it more often people!!!

[kokoloko*]

After a few days of discussion on IRC, many people agree that Chandelure is suspect worthy, so I made it a suspect.

Here's the thread.

Remember, this gives anyone and everyone a chance to vote with the Senate. I might even make a couple people permanent Senators actually, so go ladder away!

[Squidsauce]

Not to get ahead things, but I think we should look into suspecting snorlax.

We cited banning chansey because it was too much utility in one pokemon. It made life pretty easy, and destroyed the metagame. Shouldn't the same apply to snorlax? I know it's tough to ban defensive mons, but it should be something we should try. After snorlax is banned (if), it'll then be more obvious that things like raikou and chandelure are broken.

What we have is a "broken checks broken" kind of problem. If you look at BW2's BL list, it's much shorter than DPP's BL list. We've been a bit conservative on banning.

That's just my 2 cents. Sorry if it was pretty radical and irrelevant

[PK Gaming]

Does anyone else think that Special Attack Victini is an unexplored threat?

I know physical attacking Victini is all the rage, but most players have it checked one way or another. The Special Attacker set seems like it would be difficult to stop, outside of the obvious Snorlax.

[Ernesto]

I was thinking about that yesterday, since I ran it for the previous mini-tour's finals and it was pretty cool, even if I misused it.
Some calcs to consider about its usual checks:

252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 484-573 (111.77 - 132.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 416-494 (103.74 - 123.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 138-164 (35.11 - 41.73%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 229-270 (58.26 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (meaning Slowbro has a big chance of dying from BF+GK after SR, it only survives 1 in 256 different outcomes not accounting for crits, if I'm thinking it properly)

Also, against Offensive Snorlax:
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Snorlax: 187-222 (40.56 - 48.15%) -- 62.89% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 221-260 (47.93 - 56.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Which would mean that its safest switch-in is Slowking, as long as Victini isn't running Thunder. Umbreon can survive two Focus Blasts, but if it's a fully Special Victini—with 0 Atk IVs and a -Atk nature—, it won't KO with Foul Play after SR and LO. If it's a Special variant with V-create as the fourth move, then Umbreon can check it a bit better, surviving any combination of moves except for 2 V-creates and KOing back with Foul Play after SR and LO recoil.

The set I'm thinking of is:

Victini @ Life Orb

move 1: Blue Flare
move 2: Psychic / Psyshock
move 3: Grass Knot (Thunder could be an option here, but Rhype and Pert are arguably more important than Slowking, and Milo, Slowbro, and Suicune are already hit hard by GK)
move 4: Focus Blast / V-create

nature: Timid / Naive
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (0 Atk IVs) or 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

EDIT: I realize it's awfully similar to the on-site Special Attacker, but I think that Blue Flare is actually more important than V-create, and using both surely doesn't hurt against a few special walls—other than Snorlax, of course. It's also pretty neat because it has a 20% burn chance that could mean the difference between CB Lax beating you or you coming on top against it without having to rely on Focus Blast, which even with V-Star, still has a 23% miss chance...

[kokoloko*]

Yeah the on-site special Victini should really be updated because that one is more consistent. If anything, V-create should be used a second Fire move, not the sole one.

Anyway you guys know what's a really cool archetype? Rain. I've always been kind of iffy about it because Zapdos and Raikou are so common that they make using Tornadus a bit of a liability, but being able to completely overwhelm the opposition with Kingdra late-game is really cool. I tried it on a whim, modified the team a bit, and ended up using it in my SPL match this week (and funnily enough, so did my opponent). Got to #3 on the ladder under the alt Anna Molly in like two hours with it, too.

The idea isn't to run full-on Rain by the way. I mean, who knows, it could work too, but I run a more standard team with Tornadus and Kingdra "thrown in" as standalone sweepers. I don't want to share the whole team just yet because I still want to use it without having any mirror matches, but seriously, its really cool.

[Godsend]

Now that we know Chandelure will stay in the tier, what could feasibly be suspected next? In all honesty, I feel as though we've got as balanced of a tier as is achievable.