Pokémon X and Y Discussion

[IcyMan28]

^A Fire/Poison Weezing evo would be cool. It makes sense since gases are largely flammable, it would have Levitate and a useful STAB, and its already walled to hell and back by Heatran so it's not like that would matter too much.

[blitzlefan]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

The Bug-type is a joke. Nearly all of them have crippling flaws and the 5 or so viable ones are saved by either fantastic secondary typing, perfectly placed stats and movepool, or a kickass ability. Read: Scizor/Heracross, Volcarona, and Yanmega/Venomoth. Only 2 of those are OU, and the last 2 are very niche. Even then, Stealth Rock.

LOL. There's one more you're forgetting... what's that guy's name again? The Uber Bug/Steel one with Download and 120/120/99 offenses, with a riduculous movepool that's easy to abuse? Hmmm...

! Oh! It's Durant!

Hahahaha GENESECT!!!

[IcyMan28]

Haha how did that slip my mind? In any case, Genesect has literally all three of those things; perfect stats/movepool, great secondary typing, and a kickass ability. But that combination will make anything Uber (see: Blaziken).

[Enraikou]

Ok I don't know if this was already cited, and I'm not going back on pages, because I only see people wondering what type could be or what move, bláh, we don't even know what it will be.
Maybe Happiness will affect the game now? Beside Return/Frustation?

"By deepening ties between the player and Pokemon, new Pokemon Battle mechanism is even stronger"

http://www.famitsu.com/news/201301/08026993.html

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat blitzlefan

LOL. There's one more you're forgetting... what's that guy's name again? The Uber Bug/Steel one with Download and 120/120/99 offenses, with a riduculous movepool that's easy to abuse? Hmmm...

! Oh! It's Durant!

Hahahaha GENESECT!!!

He is also forgetting of Forretress, which is not a dominant Pokémon, and is neither strong, nor has amazing stats (except physical Defense). However, it shares the same Bug/Steel typing with Genesect, Durant, and Scizor, and has an amazing support movepool. Between Rapid Spin, the three hazards, the two screens, Volt Switch, Gravity, and even Counter, Forretress is another, very viable, and excellent Bug-type to use.

You should not overlook a type just because there are many bad Pokémon from that type.

[CountBleck]

I've been begging for a Ghost steel since gen 2 introduced steel and I've been begging for a haunted suit of armor since at least when gen 5 was announced. I would've been more upset but gen 5 did give us 3 new ghost type combinations.

[theBEEZ KNEEZ]

Originally Posted by Fat d.hgss

the third version will be GRAY xD

Lol yes

[royzizzle]

Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll

I see several people here cry for stuff that "will make everything viable".To which I reply:
You have no f-ing clue on how a metagame works.

There you go. This isn't directed at anybody in particular. Being able to use everything successfully is a naïve idea at best.

GameFreak has given us a little over seven hundred Pokémon, counting everything. Some are flat out better than others, and that's how it's supposed to be. If that Butterfree you get by grinding at Route 2 is just as strong as any other 'mon you'll encounter on your travels, it would make for a very boring game. Most of the early-game Pokémon will fall behind as the game progresses, urging you to catch something stronger later on. It's made this way to diversify the game experience.

And in every game, some Pokémon will come out on top. The cream of the crop. Those you acquire after much struggle, thorough exploration of remote dungeons, and often a fair bit of grinding. For obvious reasons, those 'mons often make it into the Standard metagame.
After around 20 titles, there will be a fair few of these Pokémon with better stats than the rest. Some might not have been able to keep up with the newer 'mons following them, but those have also acquired extensive movepools after having existed for all these years. If only every one in ten Pokémon are designed to stand out among those who exist to "fill out" the game, well, that group currently numbers over seventy.

Sturgeon's Law goes: "90% of everything is crud". This can also be applied to competitive Pokémon. Whenever a large group of Pokémon are changed (or added), some simply come out better than others. Unless every single Pokémon is tailored towards balance, some Pokémon would always outperform others in some role. And tailoring everything towards balance requires tremendous effort, given the type chart and that the gameplay (and thus Pokémon in it) has to be progressive. They will never go to the effort of making everything viable. If they really wanted to, they could give a single Pokémon the tools to rise and shine in the metagame, but everything? Heck, no. It's simple math.

So what causes the current domination we see of some types? For instance, Dragons? Well, endgame is usually dominated by Dragons. It's the "rare, exclusive" type, commonly reserved for the most badass among badasses. It's not meant to be privileged on the same level as lowly Bugs or Normal types. It's dragons, goshdarnit! Rare, cool, powerful! It's not that GameFreak purposely makes the Dragon type overpowered in the current metagame (and historically, they've never been shown to care much for competitive Singles), it's simply that the role of "late-game badass" is usually filled by dragons. Just by belonging to this exclusive group, they're not meant to be taken down by any old rodent and its cousin. Gameplay-wise, they are the reward you've spent the whole game earning. Of course they are overpowered.

Also remember that we ourselves would make any attempts at total balance extremely hard. We're the guys who stay up all night trying to determine which Pokémon is the best Dark-resisting physically bulky Dual Screener. As long as something separates them, we will find the better one.
GameFreak try to make the games somewhat balanced, so that friendly matches between people aren't dominated totally by a single play style, but on this site, we are hundreds of people intensely trying to find a dominating tactic from the games. It's a quasi hive mind, working full-time, around the clock, cooperating and discussing to find the 'mons with a tiny edge over the others. We put more man-hours into analyzing the games than GameFreak ever did designing them. To an outsider, or first-time player, Pokémon IS pretty balanced. However, with all the work the community (heck, communities, we borrow a bit from other sites as well) have invested, we've stripped the game down to its pure competitive core, where the minuscule differences between Pokémon in-game count a damn lot more than what first may appear to be the case. And with the extensive knowledge contained in the community, this core can be shared with and accessed by everybody with a bit of desire to play the game on a higher level. Once the road is paved, everybody might follow it. Picking out the Pokémon that make up the current Top 20, and finding the play styles we eventually decided were "overcentralizing" and "broken" would take decades for a single person.

We cry out that "[Pokémon] is broken!" and "[move] should be banned!" as if these were glaring errors and GameFreak were a bunch of lazy, short-sighted, sloppy bastards that paid no attention to balance whatsoever. Yet it's really only our intense scrutiny of the game play that made us arrive at that conclusion. Years of work. It would be impossible for GF to make a metagame (which embraces a single-digit percentage of the total buyers of their games) wherein everything is viable for top-tier competitive use, even discarding in-game progression. In a game as complicated as Pokémon, there are bound to be some monsters or play styles that stand out when analyzed sufficiently. This isn't chess, and was never meant to be like it.


Tl;dr: GameFreak really have better things to do than "adding stuff to balance the metagame and make old 'mons better the way we play the games". They pay it some attention, but they hardly base major decisions on the Pokémon Showdown 1337 usage stats. A balanced competitive metagame demands a lot more attention to design than they'll ever be willing to give it.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this includes changing the type chart to suit our definition of "a balanced game". Such a move would alienate many of their non-competitive fans (who definitely outnumber us ten to one or more), for what, exactly? Whatever reason they might have had to change the chart or add new types, it wouldn't be to counter Dragon dominance.

it doesnt take thousands of manhours to realize that ice needs a buff and that dragon needs another resist. players already get rewarded by the fact that most dragons have superior stats. superior type is overkill for dragons.

[Shroomisaur]

Originally Posted by Fat Blazen

I would love a Pokemon based on the Dullahan that is either Ghost/Steel, or Ghost/Fighting.

This. Now this is an idea I've had myself for quite a while! It would be a great idea and fit the Ghost/Steel typing perfectly (and have reason for good defensive stats as well). However, I see a lot of people wildly posting about stats and abilities with no sense of balance whatsoever...

Originally Posted by Fat jas61292

So I've seen a lot of talk here about wanting a Ghost/Steel Pokemon, and I would love to see one as well. However, seeing the kinda stats people are suggesting, I just want to say, be careful what you wish for. I don't know how many of you have ever played in the CAP metagame, but Kitsunoh, our own Ghost/Steel creation is arguably the most useful Pokemon there is. The typing is just so amazing defensively that it serves to check a ton of common threats with it. And that with the amazing bulk of 80/85/80.

This is right on the money. A Pokemon with such a wonderful defensive typing and immunities doesn't need stellar stats to be a huge defensive threat (I think even Kitsunoh's HP is too high considering its 103/110 atk/speed, honestly). So to balance a Pokemon with that type, a stat distribution with mediocre offenses (like Claydol) or bad speed (like Golurk) will balance it out. Oh, and no Levitate.

All that said, I love the idea, but I keep returning to Golurk whenever I think of the concept, or a potential stat spread... they would be very similar.

Originally Posted by Fat BlaqJstr

As for Type combination that's new I'm hoping or a Fire/Poison

Fire/Poison is a good idea. It seemed like Magmar was pretty close way back in RBY with his access to Smog (or even Weezing, since he could use Fire Blast and is made of combustible gas), but we've still yet to get this combination somehow. That typing would make a great special attacker (and that's a typing that I really WOULD like to see given Levitate!)

Also, that blasted Bug/Ground Pinsir evo I wanted during Gen5 speculation... I want it to actually happen this time. Even without any big stat boosts... STAB Mold Breaker EQ. Make it happen!

[shockwave527]

Originally Posted by Fat SHUCKLE MAN

Well, Steel and Dragon are both quite over-powered types (not as much as Psychic was in RBY, but still). Also types such as Poison and Ice could do with improvements.

But you can balance it out simply by changing the type chart, you don't really need to add new types.

What if they changed the types so everything had 5 weaknesses, 5 resistances, 6 no effects and one that doesn't affect you at all?

Oh right. That would suck.

They make the pokemon for the game and anime first, and focus on anything having to do with competition later. They do what makes sense in the game. Dragon is an elusive type until the end, but really powerful. Aren't games better where you get more powerful stuff like that closer to the end rather then everything always being as good as everything else and no need to switch? I say leave it the way it is. Maybe add a new type or too, but make them at least make sense and don't just even it out for no logical reason aside from balance.

[Guppin]

About the ghost/steel Pokemon, a haunted set of armour doesn't exactly scream "Pokemon" to me. This is what I think it should look like (I'll put it in Pokedex form)

"Long extinct, the spirit is all that is left of this Pokemon. They steal thick sheets of metal from factories to mold their old body."

This way the new Pokemon won't have to look so humanoid (for some reason I hate that). It would also still stick to the ghost and steel theme. This is just my opinion.

[Blazen]

Originally Posted by Fat Guppin

About the ghost/steel Pokemon, a haunted set of armour doesn't exactly scream "Pokemon" to me. This is what I think it should look like (I'll put it in Pokedex form)

"Long extinct, the spirit is all that is left of this Pokemon. They steal thick sheets of metal from factories to mold their old body."

This way the new Pokemon won't have to look so humanoid (for some reason I hate that). It would also still stick to the ghost and steel theme. This is just my opinion.

Pokemon has had everything from ice cream to a genetically engineered super clone. I think they can pull off a haunted suit of armor.

[shockwave527]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

A lot of solutions have been proposed to the dragon problem. If there weren't a new type, then I think that it would be very fair to change the current type chart. For example, making Ice-type Pokémon resistant to Dragon-type attacks, or adding more weakness to Dragon-type Pokémon.

But that's the point! Dragons are supposed to be, well, dragons. They are meant to be super powerful and hard to defeat. They're not supposed to be weak to a lot and not much should defeat them. Pokemon are made for fun first and stategy later. I don't get all this type-chart talk. Sure, that's nice for competitive players, but think about their reasoning. Being super powerful is the whole reason for this big, strong type. A finale type, if you will.

[Guppin]

Originally Posted by Fat Blazen

Pokemon has had everything from ice cream to a genetically engineered super clone. I think they can pull off a haunted suit of armor.

True, very true.

[The Cicada]

Originally Posted by Fat Guppin

About the ghost/steel Pokemon, a haunted set of armour doesn't exactly scream "Pokemon" to me. This is what I think it should look like (I'll put it in Pokedex form)

"Long extinct, the spirit is all that is left of this Pokemon. They steal thick sheets of metal from factories to mold their old body."

This way the new Pokemon won't have to look so humanoid (for some reason I hate that). It would also still stick to the ghost and steel theme. This is just my opinion.

neither does cofagrigus

[Blazen]

Originally Posted by Fat shockwave527

But that's the point! Dragons are supposed to be, well, dragons. They are meant to be super powerful and hard to defeat. They're not supposed to be weak to a lot and not much should defeat them. Pokemon are made for fun first and stategy later. I don't get all this type-chart talk. Sure, that's nice for competitive players, but think about their reasoning. Being super powerful is the whole reason for this big, strong type. A finale type, if you will.

I don't get it either. The only chart change suggestion I've seen that I like is letting Ice resist Water. Other than that there is a reason most Dragons are found near the end, and why 4 of the 6 Pseudos introduced so far are Dragon types. Besides, the Smogon tiers currently have Kyurem sitting in BL. A base 660 legendary Dragon that can't even cut it in OU.

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat inanimate blob

So essentially, a Pokémon only weak to Fire with strong offense, defense, and speed.

Sounds good! It'll do great in Ubers.

Eh, it's practically Metagross, so I don't think Ubers is quite right... although it would make a pretty sweet spin blocker (further suggesting there should be a rapid spin variant, or perhaps an ability that eats entry hazards...).

Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll

I see several people here cry for stuff that "will make everything viable".To which I reply:
You have no f-ing clue on how a metagame works.

Well, I'll take this one up: I've advocated making pokemon have their own niche; I don't think any pokemon x should be functionally better in every way than pokemon y. Until Multiscale, Dragonite was almost functionally outclassed by salamence. Now they both have their own niche; IE good balance.

So, yeah, I want a Magcargo evolution that makes it have a place in, say, UU or OU. It'd be a physical wall for trick room teams - probably, but a rocket slug evolution with good speed might fill up it's problems; theoretically a special attacker with skarmory stats and a useful ability would be UU worthy.

Sunflora, too, could get a decent evolution and be a decent trick room special sweeper if they put some effort into it. Alternatively, an exclusive move - say "Call for Family" which gives you a clone of it at full health, turning singles into doubles/triples, would be pretty interesting, if gimmicky. Sunflora wouldn't be OU/Ubers quality, but it's have it's niche.

I wish GF would ask "how can we make this so it's useful?" Give everything a niche.

[EtherDrive]

snorlax is based on a panda... right?

we need more bears

[The Cicada]

Spinda evo then.

[Guppin]

Originally Posted by Fat EtherDrive

snorlax is based on a panda... right?

we need more bears

We have Ursaring too.

[The Cicada]

and Beartic, which everybody bitched about being an ice ursaring.

[Blazen]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

Eh, it's practically Metagross, so I don't think Ubers is quite right... although it would make a pretty sweet spin blocker (further suggesting there should be a rapid spin variant, or perhaps an ability that eats entry hazards...).

I know someone suggested the the Ghost/Steel be given levitate, but I personally hate the idea. I feel like it should have a decent ability that helps it, not one that leaves it with only one weakness, and an extra immunity. My personal ability choice for it is Battle Armor. Crit immunity is useful, but shouldn't leave it OP, since no one relies on crits competitively.

[Cinccino]

Originally Posted by Fat Guppin

About the ghost/steel Pokemon, a haunted set of armour doesn't exactly scream "Pokemon" to me. This is what I think it should look like (I'll put it in Pokedex form)

"Long extinct, the spirit is all that is left of this Pokemon. They steal thick sheets of metal from factories to mold their old body."

This way the new Pokemon won't have to look so humanoid (for some reason I hate that). It would also still stick to the ghost and steel theme. This is just my opinion.

Just do Steel/Ghost Mawile evo. It really fits Mawile's ghostly origin.

[EtherDrive]

I meant panda bears.

Spinda evo would be wanted. Preferably something that can abuse his ability

[Upstart]

I do not understand how people s wish lists consist of
1. Better spin blockers
2. More variation of hazards
3. Better spinners
4. New rapid spin move or ability

Why on earth would people want such a hazard centric metagame is beyond me. Additionally these request confuses me on whether the community finds problem in spinners or hazard setters.