Pokémon X and Y Discussion

[labarith]

Sableye is quality right now, thanks to Prankster and a great movepool. It's an example of what a good ability and movepool can do.

As for the Evolite "problem", I don't think this is anything that a few trick/knock off variants can't fix. A 50 power Knockoff-variant, say, would be pretty useful - if it's flying type, I'd probably use it over Aerial Ace, for example.

Imagine a move like this: Ironize - 5 pp, turns the item your opponent has into an iron ball; or maybe Paint Target - 5pp, the opponent's item becomes Ring Target. Sludge Beam - 5pp, turns the item your opponent has into a black sludge!

A better option would be to up Incinerate to Bugbite power, and produce a Bugbite/incinerate variant that works, say, only with manufactured items; basically anything but Gems, berries, leftovers, black sludge, and bones. Primal Strike - [rock] 60 physical damage, if the defending pokemon has a manufactured item (choice items, focus sash, evolite, etc), it is destroyed. I'm not saying Primal Strike would likely be chosen over Stone Edge, but it'd be a strong utility option. Negating choice items, life orb, and evolite is pretty tight off of a 60 physical attack. While Knockoff ALWAYS works, this works more often than not and has a chance to do real damage... maybe it'd have to be 50 or 45?

Originally Posted by Fat Redjar

While I'm not part of the "every Pokemon should be usable" party. At all. There's some things I'd like to see be usable via eviolite or just have a usable Evo.

Corsola
Mawile
Qwilfish
Mr. Mime
Jynx
Carnivine

Apparently someone's part of the "every pokemon I like should be usable" party. :/

[Redjar]

While I'm not part of the "every Pokemon should be usable" party. At all. There's some things I'd like to see be usable via eviolite or just have a usable Evo.

Corsola
Mawile
Qwilfish
Mr. Mime
Jynx
Carnivine

[Preved Medved]

Originally Posted by Fat CountBleck

You really just said that.

Someone needed to do a french joke.

[Yveltal]

Originally Posted by Fat Preved Medved

Someone needed to do a french joke.

CE LAVI

[Jimera0]

I'm in the camp that thinks that the X and Y will refer to both Genetics AND dimensional space, since both seem to have a lot of evidence supporting it and there's simply no reason NOT to have both.

As for the whole "light type" hoopla, I'm calling bullshit on it (like most people). I think the only reason that Gamefreak introduced new types in Generation II was because the original type table was flat out imbalanced, and they needed to fix it. The type table itself is actually fairly balanced now, so I very much doubt they'd risk shaking it up with some bullshit "light" type. Not to mention how badly a light type would screw with the popular and stable fighting > Dark > Psychic triangle, simply because how can you NOT have Light type be directly related to Dark?

No I think that a new type is both unlikely and unwarranted. Better off with what we have now. It's not like we've run out of possible type combinations yet or anything.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat R_N

If they felt Eviolite would be too op on too many pokemon they want to give evos to I wouldn't be surprised if they just nerfed it

And frankly, I don't think they'd even do that. I mean. They let Eviolite work on Chansey, Scyther and Porygon2. "Who cares" if anything else gets it now.

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

Apparently someone's part of the "every pokemon I like should be usable" party. :/

Well, that's not a bad thing. They just want to see their favorites being usable.

[j-squared]

I'd like to see Electric types get some love this generation (though volt switch was a nice addition).

There have only beeen 10 different dual type Electric pokemon (missing Dark, Fighting, Normal, Poison, Psychic, and Rock), and 3 of those are solely do to Rotom type(Fire, Ice, and Grass). Ghost Rotom and Stunfisk account for 2 more types, and 1 type is banned to ubers (Zekrom).

Also, a better physical attacking move would be be helpful.

[Reverend]

Okay, you know how Light Metal and Heavy Metal alter your pokemon's weight? What we need is an ability that makes your pokemon taller. Have it work like Moxie.

Hire me, Gamefreak.

[Preved Medved]

Originally Posted by Fat j-squared

Also, a better physical attacking move would be be helpful.

This is a simple problem with a simple solution.They would need to do only two things:
1-Increase the number of pokemon who can learn Wild Charge.
2-Get rid of Wild Charge's recoil.

[Preved Medved]

Originally Posted by Fat Reverend

Okay, you know how Light Metal and Heavy Metal alter your pokemon's weight? What we need is an ability that makes your pokemon taller. Have it work like Moxie.

Hire me, Gamefreak.

How something so stupid made me laugh?

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

And frankly, I don't think they'd even do that. I mean. They let Eviolite work on Chansey, Scyther and Porygon2. "Who cares" if anything else gets it now.

Well, that's not a bad thing. They just want to see their favorites being usable.

Eh... Chansey pushes walls to the limit, but given the increase in fighting's power and use, especially close combat, the typing puts it off for Chansey. Scyther, too, has pretty horrible typing, defensively, dying to both ice beam and flame thrower. Porygon2's basically near-chansey, but with a much better attacking movepool... so I think it's the most worrysome.

As for the "I want my best pokemon to be competitive" crew, the "I want every pokemon to be competitive somewhere" is intellectually superior; every pokemon might be someone's favorite! And, I hate to say it, but Never Used isn't a tier, it's a dumping ground:
http://www.smogon.com/bw/tiers/nu

A few more evolutions, access to evolite and a physical/special boosting evolite variant, and some creative hidden abilities and moveset distributions and things like Magcargo, Corsola, and the like might actually be UU-worthy, or triples worthy, or something like that.

Originally Posted by Fat j-squared

I'd like to see Electric types get some love this generation (though volt switch was a nice addition).

There have only beeen 10 different dual type Electric pokemon (missing Dark, Fighting, Normal, Poison, Psychic, and Rock), and 3 of those are solely do to Rotom type(Fire, Ice, and Grass). Ghost Rotom and Stunfisk account for 2 more types, and 1 type is banned to ubers (Zekrom).

Also, a better physical attacking move would be be helpful.

You know, until I saw you mention Rotom I was like "wait, does electric have any good pokemon?" Then I remembered 2x thunderus, zapdos, and Jolteon. While I'd like the pikachu variant to be competitive this generation, I think Electric's doing plenty well.

[The Agonist]

Magcargo and Corsola will never be UU.

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat The Agonist

Magcargo and Corsola will never be UU.

In this generation, Corsola gets:
a) an evolution, so Evolite works with it.
b) Rock Turn rock-type special U-turn. Which it gets a STAB with.
c) A "companion" pokemon, Water/Fire Nemopyre, which doubles Corsola's defensive stats while it is in your party and not KOed (it "hides in the coral", watch Little Nemo), and has solid stats itself - 60/90/60/120/70/106 with Flashfire, retconned to be a fire stormdrain, storm drain, hidden ability lighting rod, and hidden ability 2 sapsipper. Just in case you thought you were going to attack it with a super effective attack. :)
d) Rock Types are retconned to "absorb" Stealth Rocks this generation.
e) Corsola's G6 new hidden ability is as useful as Regenerator is; Trap Setter is Prankster for entry hazards.
f) Swamp Out is Corsola's exclusive entry hazard that decreases the speed of your opponent's pokemon switching in by 1 stage, which is pathetic VS him but lets Nemopyre outspeed pretty much everything in the format. Nemopyre also gets Hydroturn, a special water-type U-turn as it's exclusive move. Because, you know, haha.

Don't even make me jump through Magcargo hoops.

[Yveltal]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

In this generation, Corsola gets:
a) an evolution, so Evolite works with it.
b) Rock Turn rock-type special U-turn. Which it gets a STAB with.
c) A "companion" pokemon, Water/Fire Nemopyre, which doubles Corsola's defensive stats while it is in your party and not KOed (it "hides in the coral", watch Little Nemo), and has solid stats itself - 60/90/60/120/70/106 with Flashfire, retconned to be a fire stormdrain, storm drain, hidden ability lighting rod, and hidden ability 2 sapsipper. Just in case you thought you were going to attack it with a super effective attack. :)
d) Rock Types are retconned to "absorb" Stealth Rocks this generation.
e) Corsola's G6 new hidden ability is as useful as Regenerator is; Trap Setter is Prankster for entry hazards.
f) Swamp Out is Corsola's exclusive entry hazard that decreases the speed of your opponent's pokemon switching in by 1 stage, which is pathetic VS him but lets Nemopyre outspeed pretty much everything in the format. Nemopyre also gets Hydroturn, a special water-type U-turn as it's exclusive move. Because, you know, haha.

Don't even make me jump through Magcargo hoops.

U-turn queens? Why doesn't Corsola(or maybe SuperCorsola) have the possibility of stat boost/baton passing over to Clownablaze(evolved Nemopyre) who can then use those stat boosts to keep itself alive before Streamlining(hyrdoturn) back to Corsola? Corsola can still mirror coat and set up Swamp out (whic for coral, makes relative sense. maybe more like Riptide? Riptides slow you down irl anyway). or whichever attack setup you might want Corsola to hold onto.

[inanimate blob]

How would a Special Attacking Rock-type (with a new special rock move) or a Fighting/Rock type affect the metagame?

[The Agonist]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

In this generation, Corsola gets:
a) an evolution, so Evolite works with it.
b) Rock Turn rock-type special U-turn. Which it gets a STAB with.
c) A "companion" pokemon, Water/Fire Nemopyre, which doubles Corsola's defensive stats while it is in your party and not KOed (it "hides in the coral", watch Little Nemo), and has solid stats itself - 60/90/60/120/70/106 with Flashfire, retconned to be a fire stormdrain, storm drain, hidden ability lighting rod, and hidden ability 2 sapsipper. Just in case you thought you were going to attack it with a super effective attack. :)
d) Rock Types are retconned to "absorb" Stealth Rocks this generation.
e) Corsola's G6 new hidden ability is as useful as Regenerator is; Trap Setter is Prankster for entry hazards.
f) Swamp Out is Corsola's exclusive entry hazard that decreases the speed of your opponent's pokemon switching in by 1 stage, which is pathetic VS him but lets Nemopyre outspeed pretty much everything in the format. Nemopyre also gets Hydroturn, a special water-type U-turn as it's exclusive move. Because, you know, haha.

Don't even make me jump through Magcargo hoops.

Except none of this is ever going to happen. Seriously.

[Yveltal]

Originally Posted by Fat inanimate blob

How would a Special Attacking Rock-type (with a new special rock move) or a Fighting/Rock type affect the metagame?

Labarinth wants every pokemon he likes to be usable, that's how.

[b2j135]

Originally Posted by Fat Redjar

While I'm not part of the "every Pokemon should be usable" party. At all. There's some things I'd like to see be usable via eviolite or just have a usable Evo.

Corsola
Mawile
Qwilfish
Mr. Mime
Jynx
Carnivine

Farfetch'd
Pinsir
Dunsparce (god yes)
Shuckle
Smeargle
Torkoal
the list LITERALLY goes on...

[inanimate blob]

Originally Posted by Fat Yveltal

Labarinth wants every pokemon he likes to be usable, that's how.

The Fighting/Rock type is my own question, sorry. :3

[Yveltal]

Originally Posted by Fat inanimate blob

The Fighting/Rock type is my own question, sorry. :3

OH! well, it depends on how much it resembles Terrakion in battle, I guess. Whether or not it's better fitted for special moves is probably its major determinant for what tier it will stand in. And then there's it's stats to figure out, IVs, desired moves and movesets, an ability...
-faints-

[The Agonist]

Originally Posted by Fat inanimate blob

The Fighting/Rock type is my own question, sorry. :3

As it stands right now, the best special Rock is Power Gem, and the best Fighting move is Aura Sphere (Focus Blast sucks dick). So it'd need a much better Rock move before it was anything outstanding, and a way to increase its Special Attack would also help immensely (Calm Mind or Nasty Plot). If it got those, and the right stat distribution, it'd probably be pretty decent.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

As for the "I want my best pokemon to be competitive" crew, the "I want every pokemon to be competitive somewhere" is intellectually superior; every pokemon might be someone's favorite! And, I hate to say it, but Never Used isn't a tier, it's a dumping ground:
http://www.smogon.com/bw/tiers/nu

A few more evolutions, access to evolite and a physical/special boosting evolite variant, and some creative hidden abilities and moveset distributions and things like Magcargo, Corsola, and the like might actually be UU-worthy, or triples worthy, or something like that.

The main point is that those who want their favorites to become usable don't want ONLY those pokémon to become as such; they're neutral to anything else, but biased to their own. I want Banette to evolve since ADV, in example; yes, I was beyond mad when Dusknoir was released, but only because it was already good in the previous gen; I had no problems with Ambipom evolving, however. I liked it, even. Those people may even want everything to be usable, but either don't vocalize that wish, believe it's near impossible/improbable, or just really care only about their favorites. I don't see them actively not wanting the other pokémon to become usable. So, it's a pretty harmless wish those people have.

And saying one crew is "intellectually superior" to the other was a bit uncalled for.

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

Don't even make me jump through Magcargo hoops.

Critical Guard (ability) - 4x weaknesses become immunities


Straight from Amazing Ampharos's Shoddy server. Yeah I'm a genius, I know

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat Yveltal

U-turn queens? Why doesn't Corsola(or maybe SuperCorsola) have the possibility of stat boost/baton passing over to Clownablaze(evolved Nemopyre) who can then use those stat boosts to keep itself alive before Streamlining(hyrdoturn) back to Corsola? Corsola can still mirror coat and set up Swamp out (whic for coral, makes relative sense. maybe more like Riptide? Riptides slow you down irl anyway). or whichever attack setup you might want Corsola to hold onto.

Now that's just silly.

Originally Posted by Fat The Agonist

Except none of this is ever going to happen. Seriously.

I know. But I'm just saying it's possible.

Now that you've implied that would be UU worthy, we can talk about what could be taken away and it still being UU worthy. While the 6(7) different things there are unlikely, I suspect we could easily get 2-3 of them. The clownfish pokemon seems fairly balanced; it's "helping" of Corsola is different, but not impossible - especially if it works on Corsola's evolution.

Now you give it Stealth Rock/Toxic Spikes/Recover/Knockoff with the Neopyre defense/sp.d and evolite bonus is pretty strong... even if it is slower than mudd. So, yeah.

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

Critical Guard (ability) - 4x weaknesses become immunities

Straight from Amazing Ampharos's Shoddy server. Yeah I'm a genius, I know

Well... any weakness being a 1/4 effective would be pretty neat in itself, but yeah - that might really do something. :P

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

And saying one crew is "intellectually superior" to the other was a bit uncalled for.

I didn't mean it to be insulting. I meant it analytically. To want your own favorites to be better because they're your favorites is inherently arbitrary. To want everything to be competitive in some sense, however, is not arbitrary - it advocates that everything is useful, and nothing is wasted. Rationality is inherently non-arbitrary. Thus, analytically, to be arbitrary about x when you can be non-arbitrary about x is to be rationally inferior.

Again - I didn't want to offend, it's just that being arbitrary when it's possible to be non-arbitrary is inherently irrational and immoral.

[CountBleck]

That would actually make magcargo somewhat more scary. Though I still doubt if even that would be enough for him to be in OU.

Edit: I forgot he has shell smash. That might work I guess.

[The Agonist]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

I know. But I'm just saying it's possible.

No, it's not, and you're just making yourself look foolish by insisting that it can happen.

Originally Posted by Fat CountBleck

That would actually make magcargo somewhat more scary. Though I still doubt if even that would be enough for him to be in OU.

Edit: I forgot he has shell smash. That might work I guess.

Base 30 Spe, even after a Shell Smash, is still extremely slow for OU. Add in common weaknesses to Rock/Fighting (Terrakion says hi, and conveniently enough, it also resists Magcargo's STABs), and it won't happen.