So many weather teams... Is non-weather viable?

[Turtle Soup]

Landorus statistics from October.:
Standard: 52% Life orb, 21% Choice Scarf
Suspect: 88% Life orb, 7% Choice Scarf
Unless something drastically changed in the last half month, then most Landoruses are definitely not scarfed.
About Genesect, it's true Scarf sets are more common, but I wouldn't say it out classes Rock Polish at all. Both of them have their uses, and a lot of people would actually argue that the RP set is more threatening.

[Shadowmence]

Originally Posted by Fat Turtle Soup

Landorus statistics from October.:
Standard: 52% Life orb, 21% Choice Scarf
Suspect: 88% Life orb, 7% Choice Scarf
Unless something drastically changed in the last half month, then most Landoruses are definitely not scarfed.
About Genesect, it's true Scarf sets are more common, but I wouldn't say it out classes Rock Polish at all. Both of them have their uses, and a lot of people would actually argue that the RP set is more threatening.

Alright they may not use scarf but how many of them use swords dance? Not many, I'm sure. I've seen plenty of Landorus and I've never see one use swords dance.

The RP set is not more threatening. If someone uses flamethrower/fire blast/flare blitz or even a strong enough neutral attack when rocks/spikes are up, it's a wrap because it doesn't have that speed advantage before rock polish. Rock polish may be a better sweeper but it's FAR easier to counter than scarf. It's a lot like Cloyster in a way but with better typing. The only thing you can do against a scarfed Genesect is use a faster scarfer.

[DrunkDemon]

Originally Posted by Fat Shadowmence

Alright they may not use scarf but how many of them use swords dance? Not many, I'm sure. I've seen plenty of Landorus and I've never see one use swords dance.

The most popular variant of Landorus right now is Sheer Force with Rock Polish. It actually is quite effective alongside a Rock Polish Genesect, since most teams have difficulty taking them both down.

[Turtle Soup]

The thing is a competent person won't just switch in a Pokemon and try to set up against something that can obviously take it out, but will switch it in to something that it threatens out and set up while the enemies switching out. Which is quite easy on Genesect when the enemy doesn't know what kind of set you're running.
To avoid misunderstandings, I'm not saying the RP set is better, as I previously stated I believe both sets have their uses. I also agree with anything more then 2 set up pokemon being overkill.

By the way. Isn't it a problem that we're taking this thread of topic?

[Shadowmence]

Originally Posted by Fat Turtle Soup

The thing is a competent person won't just switch in a Pokemon and try to set up against something that can obviously take it out, but will switch it in to something that it threatens out and set up while the enemies switching out. Which is quite easy on Genesect when the enemy doesn't know what kind of set you're running.
To avoid misunderstandings, I'm not saying the RP set is better, as I previously stated I believe both sets have their uses. I also agree with anything more then 2 set up pokemon being overkill.

By the way. Isn't it a problem that we're taking this thread of topic?

Yeah, sucks that this thread went off topic but I was trying to prove point to that other guy that setup sweepers can't really be "spammed" or relied on, especially when it comes to countering weather. Any weather team worth its salt has 2 solid setup sweeper checks while the the other 3 Pokemon that aren't the weather starter freeload off the weather condition and rape everything.

You really don't have much freedom in this metagame TBH. You either use Rain, sun, or Sand, or use Non-Weather and limit your team choices to about 8 Pokemon.

[Sacaen]

Originally Posted by Fat Shadowmence

Yeah, sucks that this thread went off topic but I was trying to prove point to that other guy that setup sweepers can't really be "spammed" or relied on, especially when it comes to countering weather. Any weather team worth its salt has 2 solid setup sweeper checks while the the other 3 Pokemon that aren't the weather starter freeload off the weather condition and rape everything.

You really don't have much freedom in this metagame TBH. You either use Rain, sun, or Sand, or use Non-Weather and limit your team choices to about 8 Pokemon.

I still use a dual screen/set up sweeper team and it works just fine against both weather and non weather.

DD Dragonite, DD Taunt Haxorus, SD Scizor, Dual Screen Cresselia, Dual Screen Espeon, and Sunny Day Heatran has brought me alot of success. Their roles are, for the most part, self explanatory. Each sweeper takes on slightly different threats and removes those threats so another can come in and finish the sweep if necessary. Espeon and Cresselia form an amazing screen core despite sharing the same typing, and Heatran serves as my defensive pivot and counter to Sand and Rain (sun teams are usually less of an issue as they don't carry as many steels as Rain or Sand teams do, and really the only threat is Venusaur, which is usually conserved, and will end up getting outsped and killed to +2 Haxorus.

Dual Screens turn alot (and I really mean ALOT) of potential set up sweeper checks into fodder as they will fail to KO or deal insignificant damage allowing me to boost to the appropriate level.

I don't disagree that there isn't alot of freedom in terms of the metagame being very centralized, but that doesn't mean non conventional teams are not good or successful, especially in regards to the set up sweeper type teams as you were describing (provided they have dual screen support)

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat Sacaen

I still use a dual screen/set up sweeper team and it works just fine against both weather and non weather.

DD Dragonite, DD Taunt Haxorus, SD Scizor, Dual Screen Cresselia, Dual Screen Espeon, and Sunny Day Heatran has brought me alot of success. Their roles are, for the most part, self explanatory. Each sweeper takes on slightly different threats and removes those threats so another can come in and finish the sweep if necessary. Espeon and Cresselia form an amazing screen core despite sharing the same typing, and Heatran serves as my defensive pivot and counter to Sand and Rain (sun teams are usually less of an issue as they don't carry as many steels as Rain or Sand teams do, and really the only threat is Venusaur, which is usually conserved, and will end up getting outsped and killed to +2 Haxorus.

Dual Screens turn alot (and I really mean ALOT) of potential set up sweeper checks into fodder as they will fail to KO or deal insignificant damage allowing me to boost to the appropriate level.

I don't disagree that there isn't alot of freedom in terms of the metagame being very centralized, but that doesn't mean non conventional teams are not good or successful, especially in regards to the set up sweeper type teams as you were describing (provided they have dual screen support)

Nothing to set-up SR?

[Shadowmence]

Originally Posted by Fat Sacaen

I still use a dual screen/set up sweeper team and it works just fine against both weather and non weather.

DD Dragonite, DD Taunt Haxorus, SD Scizor, Dual Screen Cresselia, Dual Screen Espeon, and Sunny Day Heatran has brought me alot of success. Their roles are, for the most part, self explanatory. Each sweeper takes on slightly different threats and removes those threats so another can come in and finish the sweep if necessary. Espeon and Cresselia form an amazing screen core despite sharing the same typing, and Heatran serves as my defensive pivot and counter to Sand and Rain (sun teams are usually less of an issue as they don't carry as many steels as Rain or Sand teams do, and really the only threat is Venusaur, which is usually conserved, and will end up getting outsped and killed to +2 Haxorus.

Dual Screens turn alot (and I really mean ALOT) of potential set up sweeper checks into fodder as they will fail to KO or deal insignificant damage allowing me to boost to the appropriate level.

I don't disagree that there isn't alot of freedom in terms of the metagame being very centralized, but that doesn't mean non conventional teams are not good or successful, especially in regards to the set up sweeper type teams as you were describing (provided they have dual screen support)

How many points do you have on the ladder?

[Sacaen]

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

Nothing to set-up SR?

Espeon can reflect SR often, otherwise the way the team works, it's not necessary. I used to run Azelf before I switched it to Cresselia, and he could set up SR for the team, but tbh it made very little difference (Haxorus at +1 overkills pretty much everything. And often I would ignore setting it up at all unless the team had an obvious focus sasher or dragonite (before I realized Haxorus ignores multiscale anyways), the other big one was Genesect, as it would need to have taken ~10% for +2 Scizor to 2HKO it with Bug Bite and Bullet Punch (survives flamethrower behind lightscreen)

The team itself can be found here:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...91#post4418791

Originally Posted by Fat Shadowmence

How many points do you have on the ladder?

I don't see how that's relevant. Nor do I automatically jump to ask how many points you have after making such broad un-fact supported statements.
Regardless I have 1715 ACRE on the old OU ladder (the one before the genesect suspect test, which I've been running my Stall team on) with 200 matches played. Laddering isn't something I actually try to do, if I wanted to get a higher ranking I would just start it over. I'm not claiming to be better than anyone else or that the my team or the team's playstyle is better than any other, I'm just saying the playstyle that you say is completely ineffective, is not ineffective.

[Remedy]

Deoxys-D teams are at least as strong as weather teams.
I've used it with a Focus Sash Gengar, a Weavile to kill dragons and genies plus Pursuit some threats and it worked great.

[PandaCum]

To be quite fair, i think its time to introduce a weather tier..... Its annoying as shit seeing a weather team in every ou matchup....

[RaikouLover]

Weather is necessary. Without weather, you need hella priority otherwise sun sweepers cut through your team like a knife through butter. Ohh, have fun getting whacked by Hurricane spam too

[Lady Alex]

What are you talking about...? With no weather, sun sweepers and Hurricane don't exist...

EDIT: Did not read post correctly

[papita]

For you maybe, but what RaikuLover meant is that you need a weather of your own so that the things he mentioned don´t threaten you as much

[Lady Alex]

hahaha. I completely misunderstood what he said.

[Erico9001]

Some tips to non-weather teams:
¤ Make sure your team can take out weather users AND non-weather users. Not everyone uses weather!
¤ Try replacing a move on your team with sunny day, sandstorm, hail, or rain dance (depending on which benefits team most) so you can turn the tide of a battle against a weather user in your favor. For instance, on my Jolteon I replaced shadow ball with sunny day for use after taking out the weather starter.

@Op, yes non-weather teams are viable! They give a lot more opportunity to be creative- to build an effective one, skill/experience is needed!

[Scarfwynaut]

In my humble opinion non-weather stall is probably the best. Sand stall has a hard time keeping up with all the threats in the metagame, and rain stall has the problem of being hard pressed to set up hazards and have a strong defensive core after politoed and tentacruel are used. I honestly don't have any experience with hail and sun stall, but they seem to face the same problems as rain stall.

Non-weather stall on the other hand offers you completely 6 open moveslots for you to use however you please. If gives a stall player a lot more creativity to play with their team and a lot more unpredictability for other players.

[Novaray]

Originally Posted by Fat Erico9001

Some tips to non-weather teams:
¤ Make sure your team can take out weather users AND non-weather users. Not everyone uses weather!
¤ Try replacing a move on your team with sunny day, sandstorm, hail, or rain dance (depending on which benefits team most) so you can turn the tide of a battle against a weather user in your favor. For instance, on my Jolteon I replaced shadow ball with sunny day for use after taking out the weather starter.

@Op, yes non-weather teams are viable! They give a lot more opportunity to be creative- to build an effective one, skill/experience is needed!

I've tried the strategy of placing a weather move on one of my Pokemon just to cancel out the opponent's weather and it is quite effective especially against Rain and Sun. Personally I prefer using the move Hail because Hail teams are the rarest out of the weather teams and doesnt't provide much advantage to the opponent

[725roy]

For me, Sun is my favorite weather, with the most "colorful" sets. That being said MY opinion on weather is quite simple. As long as you've got a counter the other weathers then you're fine. Otherwise, you should be very aware of what the threats to your team are. As for Clearskies, I feel that if you aren't aware of what weathers are your biggest threats, then you're doin' it wrong. Really though I still feel that Clearskies is viable, you just have to know the main threats, and play it smart.

[nmitchell890]

While I disagree with some of the things Scarfwynaut said (Tyranitar is a beast and Hippowdon hasn't dropped to BL) I do agree with what he is trying to get at. The stall team I'm currently using as part of the Defence of the Titans project is weatherless and is still able to take on weather teams very well. In fact the only weather pokes I have slight issues with are Darmanitan/Victini due to the insane power of their STAB moves in sun.
In contrast the stall teams I tried to make based around weather had problems because all members of the team must be able to work in the weather I was using (for example I couldn't use Chansey on hail/sand stall) while covering all the relevant threats and taking part in the weather war all at once. Its too much for a stall team to be doing all at once in an offensive metagame such as this one

[725roy]

Originally Posted by Fat nmitchell890

While I disagree with some of the things Scarfwynaut said (Tyranitar is a beast and Hippowdon hasn't dropped to BL) I do agree with what he is trying to get at. The stall team I'm currently using as part of the Defence of the Titans project is weatherless and is still able to take on weather teams very well. In fact the only weather pokes I have slight issues with are Darmanitan/Victini due to the insane power of their STAB moves in sun.
In contrast the stall teams I tried to make based around weather had problems because all members of the team must be able to work in the weather I was using (for example I couldn't use Chansey on hail/sand stall) while covering all the relevant threats and taking part in the weather war all at once. Its too much for a stall team to be doing all at once in an offensive metagame such as this one

The thing about Darm and Victini is that if they don't have their sun, then they're practically useless, and that's why they're UU. The other thing about weather is that certain pokes get an added advantages whereas clearskies, there's no boost to be seen.

[Lord of Bays]

Saying that Darmanitan and Victini are useless out of the sun is wrong at best and misdirecting at worse. Darmanitan's Flare Blitz is stronger than any attack in OU by a wide margin, and Victini's V-Create is stronger than even Kyurem-B's Outrage.

Calcs for great justice

---

252Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Dusclops (+Def): 62% - 73% (178 - 210 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Choice Band Victini (+Atk) V-create vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Dusclops (+Def): 56% - 66% (160 - 190 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem Black (+Atk) Outrage vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Dusclops (+Def): 55% - 65% (159 - 187 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252SpAtk Choice Specs Keldeo (+SAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Dusclops (+SpDef): 45% - 53% (129 - 153 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 12% chance to 2HKO.

All of those calcs are weather neutral. Keldeo is powerful, absolutely, but he is clearly outmatched unless he's got weather on his side. Now, what keeps Darmanitan and Victini from bending over OU all day is their typing and rain's ubiquity in the tier. A weakness to Stealth Rock is extremely detrimental, and having their STAB's power cut in half so often just won't cut it. THAT is why Darmanitan and Victini "need" sun and heavy support in general, which is why they are still UU.

[nmitchell890]

What Lord of Bays said :)

Anyway, in my experience, the more offensive team you are trying to make the easier it is to include weather. The boost to water/fire attacks that rain/sun provide respectively and the ability to use Chlorophyll in sun, not to mention increasing the accuracy of Thunder and Hurricane in rain, is much more appealing than reducing the weaknesses of fire in rain and water in sun (at the cost of increasing damage done by the other) and activating Rain Dish on Tentacruel. Of course, sandstorm and hail are more 'stall friendly' because of the chip damage and, well, preventing the opponent from using their own weather. Increasing the special defence of rock types in sandstorm helps too. But even then I would rather use that to help Terrakion set up his devastating SubSD set.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat nmitchell890

What Lord of Bays said :)

Anyway, in my experience, the more offensive team you are trying to make the easier it is to include weather. The boost to water/fire attacks that rain/sun provide respectively and the ability to use Chlorophyll in sun, not to mention increasing the accuracy of Thunder and Hurricane in rain, is much more appealing than reducing the weaknesses of fire in rain and water in sun (at the cost of increasing damage done by the other) and activating Rain Dish on Tentacruel. Of course, sandstorm and hail are more 'stall friendly' because of the chip damage and, well, preventing the opponent from using their own weather. Increasing the special defence of rock types in sandstorm helps too. But even then I would rather use that to help Terrakion set up his devastating SubSD set.

I get what your trying to say, but I would argue that as you get more and more offensive, it's easier to run non-weather. Hyper Offense teams are most effective when using Deoxys-D and five sweepers. While it is possible to run a weather based HO team, it's less advisable because none of the weather inducers, bar Tyranitar, are especially offensive. Plus, when you're using HO, you don't limit yourself as much as you would in any given weather. You shouldn't, for example, run Heatran on a rain team, but you absolutely can on a non-weather team. You shouldn't run Keldeo on a sun team, but you can with non-weather. The added variety and the use of Deoxys-D on HO teams leads me to believe that non-weather is easier to run the more offensive you get.

[Shurtugal]

Non weather teams aren't reliant on weather like weather teams are, which in itself is another team slot since weather teams must run a perma-inducer on their team.