Pokémon X and Y Discussion

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat Quickster

Edit: @above, However, it seems like most people are assuming that the move used was Confusion. If this is true, Fennekin is almost guaranteed to be a Fire/Psychic type. The same applies for Psywave.

yeah CB outrage..... very risky indeed.
oh wait what about defensive steel types, everyone has gotta have one, if you dont you are screwed from CB outrage. so lets all have one of those, oh and why not have a fire type to defeat the opponents steel type. lets get a water type and a stealth rocks user for when the fire type switches in. oh but we need to have a Rapid spinner I guess ill pick from one of the 3. oh and look all teams are the same now !

[Gokuzbu]

Trollfreak will make it a Fire/Fighting who happens to know Confusion

[Quickster]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

yeah CB outrage..... very risky indeed.
oh wait what about defensive steel types, everyone has gotta have one, if you dont you are screwed from CB outrage. so lets all have one of those, oh and why not have a fire type to defeat the opponents steel type. lets get a water type and a stealth rocks user for when the fire type switches in. oh but we need to have a Rapid spinner I guess ill pick from one of the 3. oh and look all teams are the same now !

Outrage is an already powerful attack, regardless of the item. It's a Dragon type attack and that's why Steel types are used in response to it. Choice items have no effect on this whatsoever. I'm pretty sure that Dragon Dance Dragonite doesn't use a Choice Band to kill things with Outrage. This is evidence that Choice items aren't even relevant to your post. Your post didn't address any problems with Choice items themselves; it has moved away from your point about Choice items not requiring any intelligent play, to how obscenely powerful certain attacks are (which is regardless of item!).

Not to mention you'd be screwed without a Steel type anyway. It's the only type that resists Dragon in the first place so you'd be completely massacred by Draco Meteors and Outrages without one.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

yeah CB outrage..... very risky indeed.
oh wait what about defensive steel types, everyone has gotta have one, if you dont you are screwed from CB outrage. so lets all have one of those, oh and why not have a fire type to defeat the opponents steel type. lets get a water type and a stealth rocks user for when the fire type switches in. oh but we need to have a Rapid spinner I guess ill pick from one of the 3. oh and look all teams are the same now !

I'm sorry but this is kind of ridiculous. It's completely reasonable to be required to carry a steel type to counter dragons. Just like you should be packing a resist to water, fire, rock, fighting, ice, and all other offensive typings. The cycle you just describes dragon->steel->fire->water and a spinner is not the product of a metagame centered around dragon types; it's just good team building...

Frankly, I think it's absurd that people think Outrage and Draco Meteor are OP. They both have major drawbacks. Latios will be wary of letting loose random Draco Meteors because they almost always require a switch and leave him vulnerable to Pursuit trapping. A dragon locked into Outrage is the EASIEST way to revenge kill them as they are unable to switch, and even if they do live through 2-3 turns, they will just end up being confused, almost guaranteeing a switch. How are either of those moves over powered? Especially with things like Ferrothorn / Heatran / Scizor / Bronzong / Jirachi / Metagross / whatever running around OU, all of which are VERY VIABLE (except maybe Metagross)!

EDIT:

Trollfreak will make it a Fire/Fighting who happens to know Confusion

Please don't say that, you'll jinx us -_-

[Christopher]

Personally, I think Pokemon X & Y are going to be based around dimensions. I could type out everything I found through speculation or I could bullet important points and then link the website for more in-depth.

The legendaries are based around Norse Mythology. The giant tree behind Xerneas is called Yggdrasi which is the common bond between the legendaries.

This tree is send to connect the dimensions of Norse cosmological world and where these animals meet. (Asgard, Midgaurd, and under the tree.) The roots of the tree is rumored to connect the worlds.

Yveltal represents an eagle that is located in the dimension of Asgard (the sky and top of the tree). It is supposedly blind and said to see deep into a person's soul. Yveltal's eyes are light blue which is used to represent blindness. The Y-axis is also up-and-down which is why Yveltal can fly.

The trunk of the tree is where four stags are located. Each stag's antlers light up to a certain color: Blue, Red, Yellow, and Purple. Xerneas could be all the stags combined into one.

The X-axis could also be known for ground. Since Xerneas is earth bound he makes a perfect mascot for X.

In my opinion this speculation makes the most since. Including the fact that the X, Y, and Z axises create a 3 dimensional plane and this is the first pokemon game for the 3DS. These dimensions can also represent the sky, earth, and underground. Click here for more information about these legendaries as well a legendary mascot for Pokemon Z. Now I'm not saying I'm completely correct. For all I know this theory could be 100% wrong. I personally thought this made a lot of sense and I thought I would share to add more opinions.

[Quickster]

Another point you could mention is that Xerneas is based on the Chital, whose binomial name is axis axis.
A subspecies of the Chital is axis axis axis.

[Not]

Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll

I see several people here cry for stuff that "will make everything viable".To which I reply:
You have no f-ing clue on how a metagame works.

There you go. This isn't directed at anybody in particular. Being able to use everything successfully is a naïve idea at best.

GameFreak has given us a little over seven hundred Pokémon, counting everything. Some are flat out better than others, and that's how it's supposed to be. If that Butterfree you get by grinding at Route 2 is just as strong as any other 'mon you'll encounter on your travels, it would make for a very boring game. Most of the early-game Pokémon will fall behind as the game progresses, urging you to catch something stronger later on. It's made this way to diversify the game experience.

And in every game, some Pokémon will come out on top. The cream of the crop. Those you acquire after much struggle, thorough exploration of remote dungeons, and often a fair bit of grinding. For obvious reasons, those 'mons often make it into the Standard metagame.
After around 20 titles, there will be a fair few of these Pokémon with better stats than the rest. Some might not have been able to keep up with the newer 'mons following them, but those have also acquired extensive movepools after having existed for all these years. If only every one in ten Pokémon are designed to stand out among those who exist to "fill out" the game, well, that group currently numbers over seventy.

Sturgeon's Law goes: "90% of everything is crud". This can also be applied to competitive Pokémon. Whenever a large group of Pokémon are changed (or added), some simply come out better than others. Unless every single Pokémon is tailored towards balance, some Pokémon would always outperform others in some role. And tailoring everything towards balance requires tremendous effort, given the type chart and that the gameplay (and thus Pokémon in it) has to be progressive. They will never go to the effort of making everything viable. If they really wanted to, they could give a single Pokémon the tools to rise and shine in the metagame, but everything? Heck, no. It's simple math.

So what causes the current domination we see of some types? For instance, Dragons? Well, endgame is usually dominated by Dragons. It's the "rare, exclusive" type, commonly reserved for the most badass among badasses. It's not meant to be privileged on the same level as lowly Bugs or Normal types. It's dragons, goshdarnit! Rare, cool, powerful! It's not that GameFreak purposely makes the Dragon type overpowered in the current metagame (and historically, they've never been shown to care much for competitive Singles), it's simply that the role of "late-game badass" is usually filled by dragons. Just by belonging to this exclusive group, they're not meant to be taken down by any old rodent and its cousin. Gameplay-wise, they are the reward you've spent the whole game earning. Of course they are overpowered.

Also remember that we ourselves would make any attempts at total balance extremely hard. We're the guys who stay up all night trying to determine which Pokémon is the best Dark-resisting physically bulky Dual Screener. As long as something separates them, we will find the better one.
GameFreak try to make the games somewhat balanced, so that friendly matches between people aren't dominated totally by a single play style, but on this site, we are hundreds of people intensely trying to find a dominating tactic from the games. It's a quasi hive mind, working full-time, around the clock, cooperating and discussing to find the 'mons with a tiny edge over the others. We put more man-hours into analyzing the games than GameFreak ever did designing them. To an outsider, or first-time player, Pokémon IS pretty balanced. However, with all the work the community (heck, communities, we borrow a bit from other sites as well) have invested, we've stripped the game down to its pure competitive core, where the minuscule differences between Pokémon in-game count a damn lot more than what first may appear to be the case. And with the extensive knowledge contained in the community, this core can be shared with and accessed by everybody with a bit of desire to play the game on a higher level. Once the road is paved, everybody might follow it. Picking out the Pokémon that make up the current Top 20, and finding the play styles we eventually decided were "overcentralizing" and "broken" would take decades for a single person.

We cry out that "[Pokémon] is broken!" and "[move] should be banned!" as if these were glaring errors and GameFreak were a bunch of lazy, short-sighted, sloppy bastards that paid no attention to balance whatsoever. Yet it's really only our intense scrutiny of the game play that made us arrive at that conclusion. Years of work. It would be impossible for GF to make a metagame (which embraces a single-digit percentage of the total buyers of their games) wherein everything is viable for top-tier competitive use, even discarding in-game progression. In a game as complicated as Pokémon, there are bound to be some monsters or play styles that stand out when analyzed sufficiently. This isn't chess, and was never meant to be like it.


Tl;dr: GameFreak really have better things to do than "adding stuff to balance the metagame and make old 'mons better the way we play the games". They pay it some attention, but they hardly base major decisions on the Pokémon Showdown 1337 usage stats. A balanced competitive metagame demands a lot more attention to design than they'll ever be willing to give it.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this includes changing the type chart to suit our definition of "a balanced game". Such a move would alienate many of their non-competitive fans (who definitely outnumber us ten to one or more), for what, exactly? Whatever reason they might have had to change the chart or add new types, it wouldn't be to counter Dragon dominance.

I greatly appreciate this.
Most of the talk on this thread has become "what Gen VI should do to patch the metagame," rather than the discussion of what the game itself might be like.

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat Quickster

Not to mention you'd be screwed without a Steel type anyway. It's the only type that resists Dragon in the first place so you'd be completely massacred by Draco Meteors and Outrages without one.

yes exactly! I shouldn't be required to have a steel type on my team to win. I should be able to use whatever types I want in good combination with each other to win.

[Quickster]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

yes exactly! I shouldn't be required to have a steel type on my team to win. I should be able to use whatever types I want in good combination with each other to win.

But that wouldn't change if choice items didn't exist...
Well clearly this didn't get us anywhere.

So a different topic: Names.

What's the origin behind Xerneas' name? Yveltal, as far as I can see, is a combination of evil and talon/tail/quetzal. Xerneas on the other hand...
Perhaps it comes from the deer family, Cervidae. But then what about the -neas?

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat Halcyon of Light

I'm sorry but this is kind of ridiculous. It's completely reasonable to be required to carry a steel type to counter dragons. Just like you should be packing a resist to water, fire, rock, fighting, ice, and all other offensive typings. The cycle you just describes dragon->steel->fire->water and a spinner is not the product of a metagame centered around dragon types; it's just good team building...

Its not good team building, It's a flaw in the game. Major type balance issues exist that need to be fixed to allow a much more diversified game. The fact that I need a steel type or im going to loose means that dragon is too powerful. and because the only type that resists it is steel, the whole game revolves around people using pokemon that beat dragon and steel types. both of the latter required for victory

[XTar]

not sure if anybody posted this already but this guy http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=508068 makes some interesting speculations on what the third legendary'll be, most of the stuff here goes with what christopher was saying

[Frisodium]

I'd really like to see a poison type rapid spin. Something like "acid cloud" or "corrosion". The poke expels from his body a cloud of corrosive gas that cleans the surrounding area. It should be an special move, of course, and doesn't need to have much better distribution to be relevant. Weezing is the most obvious choice (wich would make him an important poke), but also Muk, Garbodor, Swalot, Magcargo, Houndoom, Gengar, Tentacruel (that would make him a better spiner, because you couldn't know how to block him) maybe Accelgor, Victreebel, Eelektross, Gardevoir/Gallade... Something like clear smog, acid bomb or pollution. It's still blockeable by steel types (wich are even more common than ghosts), it's from an even worst type than normal. Many of its potential users are fire type, but that's really cool because they can roast their steel-type blockers. Weezing and Gengar could be great spinners thanks to levitate. Gardevoir would have a new reason d'etre and it wouldn't be so overshadowed by Alakazam or Reuniclus. Accelgor would be the faster spiner ever, and Eelektross would be a really cool poke to use, thanks to coil, acid bomb, "corrosion", his wide movepool and no weakness. Give magcargo a fire/steel evo and he could be the herald of this new move (while still retaining a great weakness to ground moves and an awful speed, and even neutrality to fire moves).

If they make the desired steel/ghost, that would make him the ultimate spinblocker, being able to block both rapid spin and corrosion.

Poison playstyle is somehow a trolling anti-metagame, nasty effect-inducers (clear-smog; acid bomb; toxic; venoshock...). It is a type that cannot compite against other with pure force, but instead they have to counter the enemy, poison the enemy, take hits and wait. They're actually really ninja-like pokes (remember Koga and Sachiko) who use hidden tricks to surprise and overcome an apparently superior opponent. At least that's how they should be.

If GF doesn't do it, I think the CAP project should make a try. Its a useful move, but I think with the proper distribution doesn't need to be particulary broken, while at the same time it would allow some pokes like Weezing or Houndoom to shine again.

And, for the water/fire, I think the most obvious option is:


Those are tubeworms of the genus Riftia that live in boiling water sorrounding undersea geysers. I can easily imagine some kind of dolphin or fish formed by a colony of those worms (who show up like fins) and who swims all over the sea in order to find new volcanic spots to live. While he's not in a volcanic spot, they eat plancton that burn inside their bodies. Add to the design something like pipes to expel steam and make it resemble a coal-powered train and give him gear change and...

Ok, too much fantasy. But I like the idea of a poison rapid spin in responsae to the praying for spinners.

[Quickster]

Here's something interesting: Weltall is German for Universe. Combine this with the letter Y and you get Yveltal. This explains the stress on the vel as opposed to the Y.
Now to think about Xerneas...

Edit:

Although dissimilar, Egyptian and Bearded Vultures both have a lozenge-shaped tail that is unusual among birds of prey.

[Theorymon]

FYI Frisodium, CAP doesn't do custom attacks or abilities anymore!

As for what I want this gen... honestly I want this gen to give us some sort of mechanic that REALLY shakes stuff up, something more akin to the Special Split in GSC or adding abilities to RS, or hell maybe even splitting moves into special or physical categories like DP did, but I'd prefer for a shake up that effects everything like GSC and RS instead of a move oriented one like DP.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

Its not good team building, It's a flaw in the game. Major type balance issues exist that need to be fixed to allow a much more diversified game. The fact that I need a steel type or im going to loose means that dragon is too powerful. and because the only type that resists it is steel, the whole game revolves around people using pokemon that beat dragon and steel types. both of the latter required for victory

But that's the case with any type. There are two reasons you should be running steel:

1. STEEL TYPES ARE GOOD. Pokemon like the ones i mentioned above are fantastic independently of their dragon resist! Ferrothron still sets up hazards and spreads T-wave. Heatran absorbs fire attacks and is a great sun counter. Jirachi is the best counter to Tornadus-T. Scizor is a fantastic revenge killer and Pursuit trapper, not to mention he can grab momentum with an insane U-Turn.

2. The dragon types in OU happen to also have the highest Base Stats. You don't hear people complaining that Druddigon or Altaria is OP, because the dragon type isn't inherently broken! It has one resist, but it also isn't super effective against anything but itself either. That is balanced. Dragon is one for one when it comes to type effectiveness.

Also, you should be running a way to deal with every type. Otherwise, you are going to lose either way. I really don't think that it's an unreasonable burden to carry a steel type, which you don't have to do either. Tentacruel and Blissey can take Draco Meteors just fine. Gliscor and Landorus-T can take Outrages easily. I'm sorry but this really has nothing to do with the dragon type being broken, it's the dragons in OU that you seem to have a problem with, though I would disagree with you there too. Last time I checked, the top offensive threat was a flying type. Followed by Keldeo, Terrakion, RP Landorus, Thundurus-T, Breloom, as well as things like Garchomp, Latios, Salamence, and Dragonite. But I would rather face any of those instead of Tornadus-T, Keldeo, or RP Landorus.

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat Not

Originally Posted by Fat Cobraroll
I see several people here cry for stuff that "will make everything viable".To which I reply:
You have no f-ing clue on how a metagame works.

There you go. This isn't directed at anybody in particular. Being able to use everything successfully is a naïve idea at best.

GameFreak has given us a little over seven hundred Pokémon, counting everything. Some are flat out better than others, and that's how it's supposed to be. If that Butterfree you get by grinding at Route 2 is just as strong as any other 'mon you'll encounter on your travels, it would make for a very boring game. Most of the early-game Pokémon will fall behind as the game progresses, urging you to catch something stronger later on. It's made this way to diversify the game experience.

And in every game, some Pokémon will come out on top. The cream of the crop. Those you acquire after much struggle, thorough exploration of remote dungeons, and often a fair bit of grinding. For obvious reasons, those 'mons often make it into the Standard metagame.
After around 20 titles, there will be a fair few of these Pokémon with better stats than the rest. Some might not have been able to keep up with the newer 'mons following them, but those have also acquired extensive movepools after having existed for all these years. If only every one in ten Pokémon are designed to stand out among those who exist to "fill out" the game, well, that group currently numbers over seventy.

Sturgeon's Law goes: "90% of everything is crud". This can also be applied to competitive Pokémon. Whenever a large group of Pokémon are changed (or added), some simply come out better than others. Unless every single Pokémon is tailored towards balance, some Pokémon would always outperform others in some role. And tailoring everything towards balance requires tremendous effort, given the type chart and that the gameplay (and thus Pokémon in it) has to be progressive. They will never go to the effort of making everything viable. If they really wanted to, they could give a single Pokémon the tools to rise and shine in the metagame, but everything? Heck, no. It's simple math.

So what causes the current domination we see of some types? For instance, Dragons? Well, endgame is usually dominated by Dragons. It's the "rare, exclusive" type, commonly reserved for the most badass among badasses. It's not meant to be privileged on the same level as lowly Bugs or Normal types. It's dragons, goshdarnit! Rare, cool, powerful! It's not that GameFreak purposely makes the Dragon type overpowered in the current metagame (and historically, they've never been shown to care much for competitive Singles), it's simply that the role of "late-game badass" is usually filled by dragons. Just by belonging to this exclusive group, they're not meant to be taken down by any old rodent and its cousin. Gameplay-wise, they are the reward you've spent the whole game earning. Of course they are overpowered.

Also remember that we ourselves would make any attempts at total balance extremely hard. We're the guys who stay up all night trying to determine which Pokémon is the best Dark-resisting physically bulky Dual Screener. As long as something separates them, we will find the better one.
GameFreak try to make the games somewhat balanced, so that friendly matches between people aren't dominated totally by a single play style, but on this site, we are hundreds of people intensely trying to find a dominating tactic from the games. It's a quasi hive mind, working full-time, around the clock, cooperating and discussing to find the 'mons with a tiny edge over the others. We put more man-hours into analyzing the games than GameFreak ever did designing them. To an outsider, or first-time player, Pokémon IS pretty balanced. However, with all the work the community (heck, communities, we borrow a bit from other sites as well) have invested, we've stripped the game down to its pure competitive core, where the minuscule differences between Pokémon in-game count a damn lot more than what first may appear to be the case. And with the extensive knowledge contained in the community, this core can be shared with and accessed by everybody with a bit of desire to play the game on a higher level. Once the road is paved, everybody might follow it. Picking out the Pokémon that make up the current Top 20, and finding the play styles we eventually decided were "overcentralizing" and "broken" would take decades for a single person.

We cry out that "[Pokémon] is broken!" and "[move] should be banned!" as if these were glaring errors and GameFreak were a bunch of lazy, short-sighted, sloppy bastards that paid no attention to balance whatsoever. Yet it's really only our intense scrutiny of the game play that made us arrive at that conclusion. Years of work. It would be impossible for GF to make a metagame (which embraces a single-digit percentage of the total buyers of their games) wherein everything is viable for top-tier competitive use, even discarding in-game progression. In a game as complicated as Pokémon, there are bound to be some monsters or play styles that stand out when analyzed sufficiently. This isn't chess, and was never meant to be like it.


Tl;dr: GameFreak really have better things to do than "adding stuff to balance the metagame and make old 'mons better the way we play the games". They pay it some attention, but they hardly base major decisions on the Pokémon Showdown 1337 usage stats. A balanced competitive metagame demands a lot more attention to design than they'll ever be willing to give it.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this includes changing the type chart to suit our definition of "a balanced game". Such a move would alienate many of their non-competitive fans (who definitely outnumber us ten to one or more), for what, exactly? Whatever reason they might have had to change the chart or add new types, it wouldn't be to counter Dragon dominance.

I see your point, it is a very good argument. but I would like to see more of what they did last gen, adding DW abilities and egg moves to allow previously over shadowed Pokemon to rise a little (such as politoed, and ninetails) Think kind of planning allows for a great in game experience without breaking it with super powerful early on pokes, and allows for more pokemon to be used competetivly after obtaining DW pokemon and breeding for day. I want them to do this for more less used pokemon.

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat Quickster

But that wouldn't change if choice items didn't exist...
Well clearly this didn't get us anywhere.

Well I kind of went on to other topics, But i still feel that choice items are broken

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

FYI Frisodium, CAP doesn't do custom attacks or abilities anymore!

As for what I want this gen... honestly I want this gen to give us some sort of mechanic that REALLY shakes stuff up, something more akin to the Special Split in GSC or adding abilities to RS, or hell maybe even splitting moves into special or physical categories like DP did, but I'd prefer for a shake up that effects everything like GSC and RS instead of a move oriented one like DP.

How about giving each move a speed (weaker moves would be faster and stronger moves would be slower, generally), and who goes first would be a combination of the user's and the move's speed. that would shake things up

[Redless]

Yes, choice items hurt the metagame when they are used on a Pokemon exclusively to spam a certain move, like Thunderus-t with its hurricane or [insert rain sweeper here] with its hydro pump, because this is a strategy that doesn't take any skill. But when choice items are used to allow a Pokemon to revenge kill or wall break, as opposed to just spamming a powerful stab, I think that they can be healthy for the metagame.

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat Redless

Yes, choice items hurt the metagame when they are used on a Pokemon exclusively to spam a certain move, like Thunderus-t with its hurricane or [insert rain sweeper here] with its hydro pump, because this is a strategy that doesn't take any skill. But when choice items are used to allow a Pokemon to revenge kill or wall break, as opposed to just spamming a powerful stab, I think that they can be healthy for the metagame.

But the fact that these spamming moves can and will be cheaply combined with choice items means that they are over powered, I cant you how many times I have been swept by hurricane Thundarus-t or any OU dragon with outrage having choice items.

I think ill start using double team

[iKinkajou]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

How about giving each move a speed (weaker moves would be faster and stronger moves would be slower, generally), and who goes first would be a combination of the user's and the move's speed. that would shake things up

Wouldn't that make moves like rock polish and agility useless?

Like, say a rock polish rhyperior would want to fire off earthquakes, to sweep, but can't because a Bubble attack went first.


Edit: just read this over... Man, I write terrible when I'm tired.

Edit 2: depending which tier you're playing evasion clause is still is in effect.

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

Its not good team building, It's a flaw in the game. Major type balance issues exist that need to be fixed to allow a much more diversified game. The fact that I need a steel type or im going to loose means that dragon is too powerful. and because the only type that resists it is steel, the whole game revolves around people using pokemon that beat dragon and steel types. both of the latter required for victory

pkmn is srz biz

choice items are a part of the metagame and imo it's not spammable or heavily abusable enough to be broken without other circumstances (herpa rain spam derpa). i'd feel that a case for life orb is more convincing than choice items (boost on everything + can switch? yay). dragons are meant to be powerful because they're rare. they are not something the regular trainer is capable of acquiring without considerable effort, and in turn they are given a powerful tool capable of mass destruction. the concept of "dragons breaks metas" is more of because simulators give you access to everything without effort, or you put in the hours of strategy, planning etc. to make a good team incorporating the usage of dragons. think of how unfair in-game would be for instance where your rival could be like "fuck it i'll just randomly conjure a dratini in my party from now on and you have to go spend money on an inaccurate attack just to OHKO it"

if your team just dies to random outrages and draco meteors, then your team just sucks. unless you are doing some sort of self-imposed challenge where you have to make a top-tier team without a single steel type, i'd say save yourself the trouble.

[blitzlefan]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

But the fact that these spamming moves can and will be cheaply combined with choice items means that they are over powered, I cant you how many times I have been swept by hurricane Thundarus-t or any OU dragon with outrage having choice items.

I think ill start using double team

stop. whining. choice items are out, and they're not going anywhere. so suck it up. this might mean you'll have to play a little more defensive-oriented and work on your prediction skills or heaven forbid teambuilding aghhhhh! suck. it. up.

[Infernis]

1. Moves already have speed. It's called priority.
2. If you're feeling sad from hydro pump, get Water Absorb Quagsire. Or anything else that's immune to water.
3. Double team can't be used under the evasion clause. (Because otherwise every battle would be down to evasion miss chances and nothing else.)

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat iKinkajou

Wouldn't that make moves like rock polish and agility useless?

Like, say a rock polish rhyperior would want to fire off earthquakes, to sweep, but can't because a Bubble attack went first.

not really, if you use agility and rock polish then your speed boost would be taken into account and you would be able to do EQ (normally a slow move) faster, but weather or not you go first still depends the other Pokemon's speed and move speed too.

alliteratively with this system magnitude would be faster than earthquake and bulldoze even faster. so you could beat mid speed Pokemon using, say surf for example, with quicker moves.

This allows more freedom because now you can have quicker lighter hitting pokemon, or slower harder hitting ones.

some moves (like quick attack) might become weaker and so fast, that they will even hit before retreating