Pokémon X and Y Discussion

[Infernis]

Let's bring back crit chances being based off of speed. I'm sure that won't go poorly. I mean, Ninjask and Blaziken don't go all that fast, anyway.

[Redless]

I don't think that move speed would be that awesome, firstly because it would be very complicated and annoying, and secondly it wouldn't make a lot of sense flavor wise, as the faster moves are not necessarily less powerful. I also don't think it would be too likely, so I don't think we should seriously speculate about it.

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat Infernis

1. Moves already have speed. It's called priority.
2. If you're feeling sad from hydro pump, get Water Absorb Quagsire. Or anything else that's immune to water.
3. Double team can't be used under the evasion clause. (Because otherwise every battle would be down to evasion miss chances and nothing else.)

I guess what Im saying is to make there be more levels of priority and give faster ones to weaker attacks.

for example surf would be faster than hydropump, But not always. It would still factor in the pokemon's speed as well.

Example: blastoise uses surf while a starmie uses hydropump. both moves will have about the same speed.

samurott uses bubble while starmie uses hydropump, samurott goes first even though it is way slower, because bubble is so much faster. but say samurotts bubble is compared to ninjask's x- scissor (a fairly slow and powerful move) ninjask will go first because of its incredible speed.

lol and I was kidding about double team, it and all 100% evasion changing moves should be removed from the game.

[Redless]

Critical hits are fairly interesting as far as game mechanics go, as firstly, they can be really stupid and haxxy if they just happen randomly, but in a long term stall war, it is appreciated to have that one attack that moves the game one way or the other, especially giving teams a chance to break down bulky stat uppers. What I think would improve crit mechanics is that as a move is used more times, it is more likely to be critical.

[Ivysaurtrainer]

I dont think that giving moves speed's would be too complicated. if you want versatility you could run strong and weak moves, and you can choose when you want to try and go first. It would be a new game of risk and reward. and IMO make the game much more exciting, interesting, and unpredictable

also, make all current fast priority moves (mach punch quick attack) power 20 and hit before retreating

extreme speed would become power 50 and still be the fastest move, but without much dispersion among pokemon

[iKinkajou]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

I guess what Im saying is to make there be more levels of priority and give faster ones to weaker attacks.

for example surf would be faster than hydropump, But not always. It would still factor in the pokemon's speed as well.

Example: blastoise uses surf while a starmie uses hydropump. both moves will have about the same speed.

samurott uses bubble while starmie uses hydropump, samurott goes first even though it is way slower, because bubble is so much faster. but say samurotts bubble is compared to ninjask's x- scissor (a fairly slow and powerful move) ninjask will go first because of its incredible speed.

I'm not even going to ask why a blastoise would use surf against starmie.


Also, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat iKinkajou

I'm not even going to ask why a blastoise would use surf against starmie.


Also, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

its just an example to compare speeds,

And I think the speed system is broken,
example You pour all the EV's you can into speed and then something comes out that is faster. all of a sudden all those EV's you put in to speed are useless in this match up. That is a problem
With my thoeretical system Those ev's can still help you if you use a faster attack, if you want to out run the opponent.

[iKinkajou]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

its just an example to compare speeds,

And I think the speed system is broken,
example You pour all the EV's you can into speed and then something comes out that is faster. all of a sudden all those EV's you put in to speed are useless in this match up. while with my system Those ev's can still help you if you use a faster attack, if you want to out run the opponent.

That's the point. Priority was practically made so you can still counter frail speedy pokes

[Redjar]

Bubbles are way slower than Hydropumps so it doesn't even make sense unless Pokemon have to like charge stronger attacks. Then it's like DragonballZ or

Pokemonball Z or...



Pokemon Z (BOOM)

[Ivysaurtrainer]

Originally Posted by Fat iKinkajou

That's the point. Priority was practically made so you can still counter frail speedy pokes

Not everyone gets priority though, and my system is just taking priority to the next level and making pokemon and moves much more versatile

[Redjar]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

its just an example to compare speeds,

And I think the speed system is broken,
example You pour all the EV's you can into speed and then something comes out that is faster. all of a sudden all those EV's you put in to speed are useless in this match up. That is a problem
With my thoeretical system Those ev's can still help you if you use a faster attack, if you want to out run the opponent.

What... what?

That's not a broken system that's a pokemon just being fast. Your solution isn't interesting, it's bland. Blurring the lines of speed tiers with more priority brackets isn't interesting, it defeats the purpose of the speed stat almost entirely. This is like the whole "every pokemon should be usable argument" except with speed and isn't fair to pokemon with a decent speed stat. Just know your speed tiers or don't waste EVs and IVs on speed. Priority moves get low dispersal because they are good.

[Flareon]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

not really, if you use agility and rock polish then your speed boost would be taken into account and you would be able to do EQ (normally a slow move) faster, but weather or not you go first still depends the other Pokemon's speed and move speed too.

alliteratively with this system magnitude would be faster than earthquake and bulldoze even faster. so you could beat mid speed Pokemon using, say surf for example, with quicker moves.

This allows more freedom because now you can have quicker lighter hitting pokemon, or slower harder hitting ones.

some moves (like quick attack) might become weaker and so fast, that they will even hit before retreating

That's way too complex and simply wouldn't work in a turn based combat system. It'd be more plausible for a "real time" combat system, where your speed stat determines your movement speed and each move has a seperate "charge" time. Pokemon Rumble/Blast would be a good example of how that'd play out.

I don't see how it allows for more freedom because, in a turn based combat system, it essentially cripples faster pokemon by stripping them of their power moves.

As for your last point, that's what pursuit's for. You're supposed to be able to strategically call back a Pokemon to send out a new one better equipped for that scenario.

As for your previous points on Steel and Dragon types; Steel is a fantastic defensive typing, yes, but it is almost useless offensively, just above Poison. Offensively,Dragon has awesome neutral coverage, but then again, it only has one super effective hit on itself. By your logic, anything with neutral coverage (even a Normal move) is broken because it doesn't have many resists.

Choice items are not broken, they impose a suitable handicap on the Pokemon using them, and it's possible to strategically force a switch from the opponent. If you continuously "Loose", as you prefer to put it, might I suggest you work on your team building skills?

I'm sorry I'm being so candid, I have little patience for those with bad grammar.

Now, for something actually productive, some things I'd like to see:

Previously useless abilities given an effect to make them useful in battle, as well as some other abilities that I think could be improved. Here's my ideas for each of them. Keep in mind they're not supposed to be godly, they're just supposed to at least have some use:

Run Away: This pokemon can switch out from Trapping moves such as Mean Look or Wrap, and Trapping abilities such as Shadow Tag.

Illuminate: The opponent's evasion boosts are negated. Provides a light source in the overworld.

Honey Gather: At the end of each turn, if this Pokemon doesn't already have a hold item, there's a 10% chance it will be equipped with a Berry.

Quick Feet: 50% speed boost when inflicted by a major status. Doesn't suffer a speed reduction from Paralysis.

Normalize: All attacks used by this Pokemon deal neutral damage. If this Pokemon is Normal-type, they gain a STAB boost.

Stall: This Pokemon always moves last, but if it didn't deal direct damage, the opponent takes 1/16th of their total HP in damage (except when invulnerable).

Air Lock: whilst this Pokemon is active, all weathers and field effects (Trick room, etc) are ceased.

Infiltrator: Moves used by this Pokemon bypass Reflect, Light Screen, Mist, Safeguard, Magic Coat, and Taunt.

Frisk: either when you switch in or your opponent switches in, the opponent's pokemon's item is revealed.

Damp: prevents the use of Explosion, Selfdestruct, and the ability Aftermath. Grants a 20% Fire resistance.

[iKinkajou]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

Not everyone gets priority though, and my system is just taking priority to the next level and making pokemon and moves much more versatile

That's why you don't use pokes without priority

Edit: that's why pokes with priority are better

[TM13IceBeam]

I don't think its really required at this point in time. We do have something called speed tiers that can help one determine if Pokemon A with X speed EVs is capable of outspeeding Pokemon B with Y speed EVs. A Heatran is not going to outrun a Garchomp anytime soon without a Scarf. Let's say we have a Pokemon Derp, which you designate to counter Tornadus. Just because Derp with 252 Speed EVs fail to outrun that Tornadus and cannot murder it with Thunderbolt before eating a Hurricane to the face, doesn't this show that Derp is essentially useless in his main job? So the solution is not to come up with some weird complicated system that lets Derp beat Tornadus, but find something else that can do Derp's job better.

tl;dr: Teambuilding 101

[Redjar]

Not to mention is completely gets rid of hyper offense and sweepers in general. If a pokemon uses stronger moves it goes last resulting in not being an efficient sweeper and more of a bulky offense, which yeah, jolteon can't really do that. Using quicker faster weaker moves won't land KO's which means you're not sweeping.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat Ivysaurtrainer

its just an example to compare speeds,

And I think the speed system is broken,
example You pour all the EV's you can into speed and then something comes out that is faster. all of a sudden all those EV's you put in to speed are useless in this match up. That is a problem
With my thoeretical system Those ev's can still help you if you use a faster attack, if you want to out run the opponent.

But don't you see? Then you have the same wolf in a different sheep's clothing. If Pokemon A and Pokemon B both have max speed but B is faster, then B will always kill A. Even under your circumstances, where you say that A would just run a faster attack to hit B, then B could do the same, and you're back to square one. That doesn't solve anything. It only adds more complications and makes weaker moves more competitively viable, which doesn't really make sense.

The best solution is always the one that gets the job done in the simplest way possible.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fat Flareon

That's way to complex and simply wouldn't work in a turn based combat system. It'd be more plausible for a "real time" combat system, where your speed stat determines your movement speed and each move has a seperate "charge" time. Pokemon Rumble/Blast would be a good example of how that'd play out.

I don't see how it allows for more freedom because, in a turn based combat system, it essentially cripples faster pokemon by stripping them of their power moves.

As for your last point, that's what pursuit's for. You're supposed to be able to strategically call back a Pokemon to send out a new one better equipped for that scenario.

As for your previous points on Steel and Dragon types; Steel is a fantastic defensive typing, yes, but it is almost useless offensively, just above Poison. Offensively,Dragon has awesome neutral coverage, but then again, it only has one super effective hit on itself. By your logic, anything with neutral coverage (even a Normal move) is broken because it doesn't have many resists.

Choice items are not broken, they impose a suitable handicap on the Pokemon using them, and it's possible to strategically force a switch from the opponent. If you continuously "Loose", as you prefer to put it, might I suggest you work on your team building skills?

I'm sorry I'm being so candid, I have little patience for those with bad grammar.

Now, for something actually productive, some things I'd like to see:

Previously useless abilities given an effect to make them useful in battle, as well as some other abilities that I think could be improved. Here's my ideas for each of them. Keep in mind they're not supposed to be godly, they're just supposed to at least have some use:

Run Away: This pokemon can switch out from Trapping moves such as Mean Look or Wrap, and Trapping abilities such as Shadow Tag.

Illuminate: The opponent's evasion boosts are negated. Provides a light source in the overworld.

Honey Gather: At the end of each turn, if this Pokemon doesn't already have a hold item, there's a 10% chance it will be equipped with a Berry.

Quick Feet: 50% speed boost when inflicted by a major status. Doesn't suffer a speed reduction from Paralysis.

Normalize: All attacks used by this Pokemon deal neutral damage. If this Pokemon is Normal-type, they gain a STAB boost.

Stall: This Pokemon always moves last, but if it didn't deal direct damage, the opponent takes 1/16th of their total HP in damage (except when invulnerable).

Air Lock: whilst this Pokemon is active, all weathers and field effects (Trick room, etc) are ceased.

Infiltrator: Moves used by this Pokemon bypass Reflect, Light Screen, Mist, Safeguard, Magic Coat, and Taunt.

Frisk: either when you switch in or your opponent switches in, the opponent's pokemon's item is revealed.

Damp: prevents the use of Explosion, Selfdestruct, and the ability Aftermath. Grants a 20% Fire resistance.

Also, I really, really like these ideas. Run Away especially makes sense, and I'm surprised it doesn't already do that.

[Champion Steve]

Honestly, I don't see particularly weak or strong moves having a speed modifier as that terrible an idea. It would be a much better way of balancing moves than lowered accuracy, at least. And it did always seem weird to me how having just 1 more point of speed let you always outspeed, barring priority. Still, a system like that would need a lot of testing and balancing for it to work right, and I just don't see GF bothering to mess around with the battle system in that way.

Edit: Also, that Normalize would be really, really powerful. On something other than Delcatty, admittedly. But still, it makes any Normal-type have perfect coverage with any move.

[Quark]

I think it would be be cool if they made it possible for a pokemon to have a double the same type. Right now we have pokemon that can have one type, say normal, and they have the pluses and minuses of that type. Similarly we have dual types, like normal/flying, which have the pros and cons of each added together. What if we were able to have a pokemon whose type was normal/normal. The pokemon would have the pros and cons of that one type doubled, and could possibly get double STAB on moves. It could be totally broken, but I think the idea is cool. a lot of the balance would come in the fact that you now take x4 damage from every super effective hit.

[Blazen]

Originally Posted by Fat Halcyon of Light

But that's the case with any type. There are two reasons you should be running steel:

1. STEEL TYPES ARE GOOD. Pokemon like the ones i mentioned above are fantastic independently of their dragon resist! Ferrothron still sets up hazards and spreads T-wave. Heatran absorbs fire attacks and is a great sun counter. Jirachi is the best counter to Tornadus-T. Scizor is a fantastic revenge killer and Pursuit trapper, not to mention he can grab momentum with an insane U-Turn.

2. The dragon types in OU happen to also have the highest Base Stats. You don't hear people complaining that Druddigon or Altaria is OP, because the dragon type isn't inherently broken! It has one resist, but it also isn't super effective against anything but itself either. That is balanced. Dragon is one for one when it comes to type effectiveness.

Also, you should be running a way to deal with every type. Otherwise, you are going to lose either way. I really don't think that it's an unreasonable burden to carry a steel type, which you don't have to do either. Tentacruel and Blissey can take Draco Meteors just fine. Gliscor and Landorus-T can take Outrages easily. I'm sorry but this really has nothing to do with the dragon type being broken, it's the dragons in OU that you seem to have a problem with, though I would disagree with you there too. Last time I checked, the top offensive threat was a flying type. Followed by Keldeo, Terrakion, RP Landorus, Thundurus-T, Breloom, as well as things like Garchomp, Latios, Salamence, and Dragonite. But I would rather face any of those instead of Tornadus-T, Keldeo, or RP Landorus.

Yes. All these points. The Dragon typing in and of itself is actually just okay at best. What makes most Dragons good is high stats, good abilities, and diverse move pools.

Also, I can think of other ways to deal with Dragons. Kyurem-B is the only OU Dragon not weak to Ice. Stealth Rocks, and other Hazards work well on Dragons (Dragonite in particular hates SR). Every OU Dragon is weak to Dragon attacks. Haxorus is the only OU Dragon that doesn't have a secondary typing which leaves him with some major weakness, and he's also the most frail one.

I actually decided to count up the Pokes in OU to see which typing was most common. First place was a tie between Water, and Psychic with 10. If you count the 2 Landorus forms as separate Pokemon, then second place is a tie between Steel, Ground, and Flying at 9 Pokemon. If you don't count the forms separate, then third place is a is a three way tie between Dragon, Ground, and Flying at 8 Pokemon each. This probably doesn't really prove anything, considering the number of Dragons sitting in Uber. However the Dragons there were meant to be there.

[Preved Medved]

Originally Posted by Fat Flareon

That's way too complex and simply wouldn't work in a turn based combat system. It'd be more plausible for a "real time" combat system, where your speed stat determines your movement speed and each move has a seperate "charge" time. Pokemon Rumble/Blast would be a good example of how that'd play out.

I don't see how it allows for more freedom because, in a turn based combat system, it essentially cripples faster pokemon by stripping them of their power moves.

As for your last point, that's what pursuit's for. You're supposed to be able to strategically call back a Pokemon to send out a new one better equipped for that scenario.

As for your previous points on Steel and Dragon types; Steel is a fantastic defensive typing, yes, but it is almost useless offensively, just above Poison. Offensively,Dragon has awesome neutral coverage, but then again, it only has one super effective hit on itself. By your logic, anything with neutral coverage (even a Normal move) is broken because it doesn't have many resists.

Choice items are not broken, they impose a suitable handicap on the Pokemon using them, and it's possible to strategically force a switch from the opponent. If you continuously "Loose", as you prefer to put it, might I suggest you work on your team building skills?

I'm sorry I'm being so candid, I have little patience for those with bad grammar.

Now, for something actually productive, some things I'd like to see:

Previously useless abilities given an effect to make them useful in battle, as well as some other abilities that I think could be improved. Here's my ideas for each of them. Keep in mind they're not supposed to be godly, they're just supposed to at least have some use:

Run Away: This pokemon can switch out from Trapping moves such as Mean Look or Wrap, and Trapping abilities such as Shadow Tag.

Illuminate: The opponent's evasion boosts are negated. Provides a light source in the overworld.

Honey Gather: At the end of each turn, if this Pokemon doesn't already have a hold item, there's a 10% chance it will be equipped with a Berry.

Quick Feet: 50% speed boost when inflicted by a major status. Doesn't suffer a speed reduction from Paralysis.

Normalize: All attacks used by this Pokemon deal neutral damage. If this Pokemon is Normal-type, they gain a STAB boost.

Stall: This Pokemon always moves last, but if it didn't deal direct damage, the opponent takes 1/16th of their total HP in damage (except when invulnerable).

Air Lock: whilst this Pokemon is active, all weathers and field effects (Trick room, etc) are ceased.

Infiltrator: Moves used by this Pokemon bypass Reflect, Light Screen, Mist, Safeguard, Magic Coat, and Taunt.

Frisk: either when you switch in or your opponent switches in, the opponent's pokemon's item is revealed.

Damp: prevents the use of Explosion, Selfdestruct, and the ability Aftermath. Grants a 20% Fire resistance.

And one more:
Teravolt;Hits opponent regardless of type and abilities.

[HelloooNurse]

Best Legendary Pokemon EVER! And normally, I'm a die-hard first Gen fan. But these guys are awesome! =D

Did anyone else get a Kingdom Hearts vibe while watching the trailer? XD

Can't wait for Gen6 (even if I do have to buy a 3DS now.)

[Blazen]

Originally Posted by Fat HelloooNurse

Best Legendary Pokemon EVER! And normally, I'm a die-hard first Gen fan. But these guys are awesome! =D

Did anyone else get an Kingdom Hearts vibe while watching the trailer? XD

Can't wait for Gen6 (even if I do have to buy a 3DS now.)

Great, now Yveltal reminds me of those annoying Fliers from 358/3. I hope you're happy.

[inanimate blob]

Originally Posted by Fat Preved Medved

And one more:
Teravolt;Hits opponent regardless of type and abilities.

What? Teravolt and Turboblaze are great abilities, they work just like Mold Breaker. Turboblaze allows Reshiram to have unresisted STAB coverage (without Turboblaze, Heatran is able to resist using both natural typing and Flash Fire). Teravolt allows Zekrom/Kyurem-B to hit Pokémon like Jolteon and Lanturn expecting a free boost.

[Organization Member XIV]

Oh great I can see the theorymoning is starting to turn to shit.

Blob he included TYPES as well as abilities. Also, would love to see the first Poison Legendary in Poison/Flying Yveltal.

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat Ryanide

I still want my Pachirisu evolution. A fast, bulky electric/flying type who gets Roost and has just enough special attack to do pachirisu's job better, pissing people off with super fang, thunder wave and volt turn.

Bad Zapdos is bad.

Originally Posted by Fat inanimate blob

What? Teravolt and Turboblaze are great abilities, they work just like Mold Breaker. Turboblaze allows Reshiram to have unresisted STAB coverage (without Turboblaze, Heatran is able to resist using both natural typing and Flash Fire). Teravolt allows Zekrom/Kyurem-B to hit Pokémon like Jolteon and Lanturn expecting a free boost.

If they are functionally Mold Breaker, why don't they just have Mold Breaker?

Originally Posted by Fat Redless

Yes, choice items hurt the metagame when they are used on a Pokemon exclusively to spam a certain move, like Thunderus-t with its hurricane or [insert rain sweeper here] with its hydro pump, because this is a strategy that doesn't take any skill. But when choice items are used to allow a Pokemon to revenge kill or wall break, as opposed to just spamming a powerful stab, I think that they can be healthy for the metagame.

Well... personally I love Choice Scarf Ditto... and it is pretty good (but in no way broken, especially in 3 on 3 wifi where it's often useless).

That said, I don't think Choice Band or Specs hut the metagame at all; they allow for more OHKOs but also rely upon switching, allowing Shadow Tag-esque effects to be more powerful, as well as entry hazards.

Quite Frankly, the only situation where I'm actually upset - or even notice - opposing choice items is when they have choice scarf and I'm surprized about the speed of their pokemon! I'm all like "Choice Specs Starmie outspeeds Latios, so Ice Beam", and I get Choice Scarfed to death. Then again, it's like that for Focus Sash sometimes, and berries sometimes... so I can't really complain about them. Mind Herb pisses me off more often though, as it alone can win or lose the game in triples so very easily.