Pokémon X and Y Discussion

[Bashfrog]

I've been reading the comments, and I've got to say that something needs to be done about fighting. Base stat creep aside, the fact that fighting types became so powerful isn't quite ideal in the slightest. I agree there should be more poison types, but I doubt it because with canon taken into account, it would take a lot of ninja sneaking to implement more poison types without anyone noticing that many of the new pokemon have a part poison typing. I would say that Dark/Poison or Dragon/Poison would work well as a check. Dark/poison would have neutral resistance, and could be some sort of malicious chinchilla based creature (just for lols, not seriously) that could wall defensively and bypass the dark/fighting/psychic triangle, having no big weakness to any of them, except for perhaps a strong focus blast, but it might have recovery, like a new move. Stupid idea and never going to happen, I know, but a dark poison would be cool. dragon poison could be a fighting killer, murdering fighting types with impunuity, and also the grass/water/fire triangle, as it has become resistant to all of them. These both would be possible to beat, but fighting types would be violated hard.

Also, my question for this week is: What's on the Bottom screen?
I want to know. I don't care if it's same old, I absolutely must know. I don't care that it's been a week, I just want them to leak some battle pictures that could show any changes. I'm getting tired of these speculations, could we agree that we need more leaks to fuel good conversation?

[Dia]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Also


Seriously, Hurricane actually has decent distribution, but can only be abused on rain, Acrobatics require no item, Brave Bird has shitty distribution, and all other moves are either too weak, or require 2 turns to function. I hope that Gen VI brings a good Flying-type move that HAS GOOD DISTRIBUTION between Flying-types. Especially Dragon-types, and Landorus. OH MY GOD LANDORUS. If you had a Flying-type attack, you would be the king...

And unfezant, who has the best design out of all the route 1 birds

[Dia]

Originally Posted by Fat Basileus

Out of all the final typings of the new starters, which would you most like to see? I would love to see a pure fire type starter besides Typhosion, Froakie I see as either pure water or a Swampert carbon copy, and Chespin I am not sure...

I would like Froakie to become a flying type with the cloud thingy.

[Yveltal]

Originally Posted by Fat Bashfrog

I've been reading the comments, and I've got to say that something needs to be done about fighting. Base stat creep aside, the fact that fighting types became so powerful isn't quite ideal in the slightest. I agree there should be more poison types, but I doubt it because with canon taken into account, it would take a lot of ninja sneaking to implement more poison types without anyone noticing that many of the new pokemon have a part poison typing. I would say that Dark/Poison or Dragon/Poison would work well as a check. Dark/poison would have neutral resistance, and could be some sort of malicious chinchilla based creature (just for lols, not seriously) that could wall defensively and bypass the dark/fighting/psychic triangle, having no big weakness to any of them, except for perhaps a strong focus blast, but it might have recovery, like a new move. Stupid idea and never going to happen, I know, but a dark poison would be cool. dragon poison could be a fighting killer, murdering fighting types with impunuity, and also the grass/water/fire triangle, as it has become resistant to all of them. These both would be possible to beat, but fighting types would be violated hard.

Also, my question for this week is: What's on the second screen?
I want to know. I don't care if it's same old, I absolutely must know. I don't care that it's been a week, I just want them to leak some battle pictures that could show any changes. I'm getting tired of these speculations, could we agree that we need more leaks to fuel good conversation?

I wanna know why the male player character looks like Egoraptor.


FURTHERMORE!
Dia, do you even single post?


ALSO!

Originally Posted by Fat Snappy

How about a beast/savage/untamed type? Or edge? I feel like there are a lot of normal types that could use a little more grandeur, and edge could work for yvetal while untamed could work for xerneas.

These sound like Normal and Fighting type variants. They actually sound more like abilities than attributes. As far as edge goes...If you're as bisexual as me, you would know what's wrong with that word alone. Unless Edge-type is meant to be sword-based pokemon. But even then...yah, that's RILL GROSS, GURL. What makes Xerneas "untamed", in any sense of the word? Elaborate a little more.

[lilsammy1]

Are people trying to say Choiced Outrage isn't op? Lol yea right. The fact that if I don't have a steel type I'm screwed means dragons are slightly OP. If light is added it better freaking be SE againts dragons while also resisting then. And then make Grass and poison SE againts light to boost their usability.

[CountBleck]

Originally Posted by Fat Yveltal

I wanna know why the male player character looks like Egoraptor.


FURTHERMORE!
Dia, do you even single post?

Oh my god I suddenly love the male player character.

[Blazen]

Originally Posted by Fat Jolteon Bandit

Yeah, or maybe something like a reverse Ancientpower. It has a slight chance to decrease all of the opponent's stats by 1 stage. Face it, the only reason poison type pokemon are in OU is because of their dual typing, ability or situational move:
- Tentacruel: Bulky WATER with Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes
- Toxicroak: Dry Skin and Rain equals lots of healing
- Venusaur: Chlorophyll
- Gengar: Levitate negates EQ weakness

Face it, would you use Gengar in OU if it would just be KO'd by any ground attack. Or Venusaur without Chlorphyll? I want a pokemon whose poison typing is a blessing, not a curse.

The only blessing provided by Poison type is absorbing T. Spikes. Typing doesn't make the Pokemon. It's just one part of it. Volcarona wouldn't be OU right now without Quiver Dance. Blaziken is only Uber because of Speed Boost.

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat lilsammy1

Are people trying to say Choiced Outrage isn't op? Lol yea right. The fact that if I don't have a steel type I'm screwed means dragons are slightly OP. If light is added it better freaking be SE againts dragons while also resisting then. And then make Grass and poison SE againts light to boost their usability.

*ahem* Gliscor, Hippowodon, and Tangrowth, and Slowbro say HI. Not to mention that choice locking yourself into Outrage is a guaranteed death for your dragon unless you've taken out all your opponent's revenge killers already. I gave my CB Dragonite DRAGON RUSH to avoid that eventuality at one point, because I couldn't afford to lose it every time it ran into something it couldn't KO with Superpower or Fire Punch.

CB Outrage is not even remotely overpowered. It hits hard yes, and avoiding losing a Pokemon from it can be difficult... but the fact that it prevents switching makes anything that dares use it easy pickings for revenge killers. Essentially, at best firing off a CB Outrage will get you a 1 to 1 trade off against any reasonably prepared player. Against someone who DOES have a sturdy physical wall or a steel type, it can easily result in you losing your pokemon for nothing.

And I'm sick of hearing people complain about how Dragons force people to run steel types as if you wouldn't run Steel types even WITHOUT it being the only resist to Dragon types. News flash; Steel is a fucking fantastic defensive typing. I usually end up including one or more steel types on my team without even THINKING about dragon types.

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

*ahem* Gliscor, Hippowodon, and Tangrowth, and Slowbro say HI. Not to mention that choice locking yourself into Outrage is a guaranteed death for your dragon unless you've taken out all your opponent's revenge killers already. I gave my CB Dragonite DRAGON RUSH to avoid that eventuality at one point, because I couldn't afford to lose it every time it ran into something it couldn't KO with Superpower or Fire Punch.

Were Dragon Claw and Dual Chop not valid options for your dragon?

The thrust with CL-Outrage is that if your opponent switches into a steel type, you've just lost a lot of tempo. If not, you've effectively 1:1ed your opponent. Now, yeah, 1:1 is not really ideal for your dragon in 6 on 6, but it's perfectly fine in 3 on 3 wifi battles.

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

Was Dragon Claw and Dual Chop not valid options for your dragon?

The thrust with CL-Outrage is that if your opponent switches into a steel type, you've just lost a lot of tempo. If not, you've effectively 1:1ed your opponent. Now, yeah, 1:1 is not really ideal for your dragon in 6 on 6, but it's perfectly fine in 3 on 3 wifi battles.

ah hadn't considered he was talking about Wi-fi 3 vs 3 singles (which, I'll be honest, I think is a horrible format for person vs. person battling anyway but that's another issue). This being Smogon I assumed he was talking the standard OU Metagame, but I forget that this thread has drawn in a lot of people from outside our usual group.

Still, I maintain that it's a flaw with a 3 vs 3 format, not the Pokemon or move itself. CB Outrages are easily dealt with in all the other formats, so it's pretty clear to me what is actually at fault here.

Moreover, I don't like it when people pop in just to say something is obviously overpowered, without any rational arguments to back it up, and expect to be taken seriously. There's too many damn people EVERYWHERE in gaming yelling that stuff they don't like is broken for me to NOT get miffed at it after a while. Especially when it's painfully clear it's their own lack of skill and knowledge to blame but they can't bear to blame themselves so they blame the game instead. Of course you can't extrapolate any of that from lilsammy's single post, but there have been others I won't name doing it here. Jumped to conclusions with lilsammy, though his condescending tone didn't help. I've never had much patience for people who can't admit they might be at fault, though I probably should seeing as it's a pretty darn common and understandable complex. I guess I just need to chill a bit eh?

Oh, and as for the bit about why I chose Dragon Rush, Dual Chop is exclusive to the Axew line and Dragon Claw just didn't have enough power to get the job done. Dragon Rush might fail 25% of the time, but in my mind that was better than failing to get the job done or getting yourself killed 100% of the time. My CB Dragonite was tailored for my team though so I wouldn't recommend it to people in most circumstances :P.

[lucariojr]

Originally Posted by Fat Bashfrog

Also, my question for this week is: What's on the Bottom screen?
I want to know. I don't care if it's same old, I absolutely must know. I don't care that it's been a week, I just want them to leak some battle pictures that could show any changes. I'm getting tired of these speculations, could we agree that we need more leaks to fuel good conversation?

It's probably similar to the bottom screen we have now, except the buttons will be more cool and stuff, except maybe without the weather warning bar; maybe that will be replaced with constant weather like PBR (except when a Pokemon attacks... hopefully that won't happen in X/Y).

Also, my guess for Xerneas's typing is Psychic/Grass or Ground or Normal. I would say Steel, but Steel isn't very natural (see: magnezone, metagross). Yveltal would be boss as Dark/Flying, but then again the Yveltal/Xerneas matchup would be kinda lopsided. Then again, we had Groudon and Kyogre...............

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

ah hadn't considered he was talking about Wi-fi 3 vs 3 singles (which, I'll be honest, I think is a horrible format for person vs. person battling anyway but that's another issue). This being Smogon I assumed he was talking the standard OU Metagame, but I forget that this thread has drawn in a lot of people from outside our usual group.

In defense of wifi 3vs3, besides being super easy to find an opponent, it really skews the metagame by decreasing the effectiveness, and thus use, of entry hazards.

However, it is an unforgiving metagame... many a time I've lead with Starmie against something that turned out to choice scarf u-turn me to death. :X

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Still, I maintain that it's a flaw with a 3 vs 3 format, not the Pokemon or move itself. CB Outrages are easily dealt with in all the other formats, so it's pretty clear to me what is actually at fault here.

I use Focus Band Garchomp, but I can see the appeal of Choice Scarf Garchomp - it stops Starmie, trades w/ rough skin garchomp, outspeeds all other dragons, and ties for Choice Scarf Ditto.

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Moreover, I don't like it when people pop in just to say something is obviously overpowered, without any rational arguments to back it up, and expect to be taken seriously.

No, I agree! Outrage, I think, is fair. But sadly too many people disagree, calling for restructuring of the type chart to fix steel and dragon types. Absurd.

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Oh, and as for the bit about why I chose Dragon Rush, Dual Chop is exclusive to the Axew line and Dragon Claw just didn't have enough power to get the job done. Dragon Rush might fail 25% of the time, but in my mind that was better than failing to get the job done or getting yourself killed 100% of the time. My CB Dragonite was tailored for my team though so I wouldn't recommend it to people in most circumstances :P.

See, I hesitate to play Hydropump. Focus Blast is just absurdly unreliable in my experience, and Dragon Rush isn't much better than that.

I don't know what your team is, so I can't comment... but it strikes me that doing 90% of the job lets you bring in a closer, while doing 100$ 75% of the time reads as going 0% 25% of the time.

Still, I prefer Outrage even in 6 on 6. Not CB Outrage, mind you... but I might depending on my team. +2 Outrage hurts things that resist it, and even +0 Outrage takes out most non-wall types. Team Preview really frees you up to use Outrage in situations where you wouldn't w/o it. (Note I've seen CBers use Outrage and Dragon Claw to hedge their bets...) CB Dragon Claw trumps dragons w/o drawback, while Outrage can hit 2 of an opponent's pokemon in a row if you've taken out their steel types. And 2:1 is a good record.

[breh]

Originally Posted by Fat lucariojr

It's probably similar to the bottom screen we have now, except the buttons will be more cool and stuff, except maybe without the weather warning bar; maybe that will be replaced with constant weather like PBR (except when a Pokemon attacks... hopefully that won't happen in X/Y).

It'll be a bar that will make all previous bars look dated. Seriously, compare DP to Plat to HGSS to BW to BW2 - every single one is a dramatic change to what looks like a once ugly bar.

(also let's hope for FINALLY having the ability to view stat stages)

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

In defense of wifi 3vs3, besides being super easy to find an opponent, it really skews the metagame by decreasing the effectiveness, and thus use, of entry hazards.

However, it is an unforgiving metagame... many a time I've lead with Starmie against something that turned out to choice scarf u-turn me to death. :X

I use Focus Band Garchomp, but I can see the appeal of Choice Scarf Garchomp - it stops Starmie, trades w/ rough skin garchomp, outspeeds all other dragons, and ties for Choice Scarf Ditto.

No, I agree! Outrage, I think, is fair. But sadly too many people disagree, calling for restructuring of the type chart to fix steel and dragon types. Absurd.

See, I hesitate to play Hydropump. Focus Blast is just absurdly unreliable in my experience, and Dragon Rush isn't much better than that.

I don't know what your team is, so I can't comment... but it strikes me that doing 90% of the job lets you bring in a closer, while doing 100$ 75% of the time reads as going 0% 25% of the time.

Still, I prefer Outrage even in 6 on 6. Not CB Outrage, mind you... but I might depending on my team. +2 Outrage hurts things that resist it, and even +0 Outrage takes out most non-wall types. Team Preview really frees you up to use Outrage in situations where you wouldn't w/o it. (Note I've seen CBers use Outrage and Dragon Claw to hedge their bets...) CB Dragon Claw trumps dragons w/o drawback, while Outrage can hit 2 of an opponent's pokemon in a row if you've taken out their steel types. And 2:1 is a good record.

My problem with 3 vs 3 format is that it's automatically going to be almost purely team matchup based. Simply put, there's only so many threats you can cover with only 3 Pokemon, so if you end up against a Pokemon you can't cover well you're just flat out out of luck. This does not make for a good rated metagame at all since the outcome of so many matches comes down to pure luck.

I don't see the purpose of a 3 vs 3 metagame really. Sure the matches are faster but who gives a dang when the battles are going to be predetermined by what you get matched up against? As for finding battles quickly, Pokemon Online and Showdown manage to do so just fine with a much smaller number of players, so I don't see why Gamefreak can't do it. Then again they can't seem to figure out how to deal with D/c'ers either (MAKE IT COUNT AS A GODDAMN LOSS FOR THE PERSON WHO DISCONNECTS, PROBLEM SOLVED) so I don't have much confidence in their ability when it comes to building a functioning online ladder.

I hope to be plesently surprised in Generation VI, but let's be honest; Gamefreak (and Nintendo in general) hasn't done a great job of the whole "online gaming" thing in general yet so I'll start being optimistic when I start seeing results.

I can give you some more context for why I chose Dragon Rush actually. I was using Dragonite in my team as more of a bulky hit and run attacker, taking advantage of his resists to fill holes in my team while still having a powerful offensive presence (obviously I had both rapid spin and wish support to make this viable). This is as opposed to the usual Wallbreaker/nuke role for CB Dragonite. Both Outrage and Dragon Claw were ill suited for this role, as Outrage prevented Dragonite from fulfilling the "run" part of "hit and run", wheras Dragon Claw simply didn't hit hard enough and would require it to stay in for multiple turns to get the job done, taking unnecessary damage along the way. His main goal was to pivot, so simply the THREAT of a heavy hit was needed; no smart player is going to COUNT on Dragon Rush missing. If he did miss, I'd just switch out anyway as I had planned in the first place.

Basically, the key thing was I needed Dragonite to stay alive to patch holes in my team. Dragon Rush provided Dragonite with the best chance of survival. And it's not like I needed to use it often anyway; I found myself using Fire Punch. ExtremeSpeed and Superpower far more often (to catch Pokemon on the switch or revenge kill).

So as you can see it was a rather unconventional use, hence the unconventional move :P

[Scorpio]

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

Now, Xerneas is a fucking trainwreck. There's almost nothing to hold onto to take a guess; however, I'm now shooting in the dark and saying it will be Dark/Steel. Steel because it's ~shiny~ and Dark because PLOT TWIST, WHY DO YOU ALWAYS THINK THE DARK GUY IS THE BLACK DUDE?

I say Xerneas is gonna be part Normal, most likely Normal/Steel. Fighting weakness will suck, but I don't see it having high defenses for an Uber anyways.

You guys heard it here first.

[breh]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

My problem with 3 vs 3 format is that it's automatically going to be almost purely team matchup based. Simply put, there's only so many threats you can cover with only 3 Pokemon, so if you end up against a Pokemon you can't cover well you're just flat out out of luck. This does not make for a good rated metagame at all since the outcome of so many matches comes down to pure luck.

The 3v3 format is actually pretty ok; I had a good bit of fun with it in PBR days so I imagine it's not impossible to do so if you have nonshit wifi to aid you along the way. I really look forward to WPA compatibility and what it'll do for Pokemon.

[PlatypusVenom]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

Sure.

But its prior forms would need to have different movesets, to leave you guessing. And yeah, very few crossover moves...

Maybe, but the prevos wouldn't have movesets that vary that much. To make up for their lack of difference, they could have completely different stats but evolve into something that is a more balanced compilation of their stats, like Regice and Regirock evolving into Registeel (I'm not at all saying that should happen. It is merely an example of extreme stats --> balanced stats).

[Jimera0]

Alright before I discuss 3 vs 3 further I should probably get the lowdown on exactly how it works.

First off, do you submit only 3 Pokemon, or does it work like in Pokemon Stadium where you see your team and your opponents team of 6 and select 3 Pokemon to try it? If so that does help alleviate some of the issues with the whole "counter everything" bit, though it still places an undue emphasis on luck (Predicting what Pokemon your foe is going to choose is pretty much a crapshoot with that little information).

And perhaps most importantly, is it ranked and rated? If it isn't, then I suppose sure, keep it. But for a ladder type system it's a terrible idea; it's impossible to accurately rank the skill of people when everything is frequently decided as soon as Pokemon are picked. Not to mention that a shorter battle has less room for error, giving certain high powered strategies (like the aforementioned CB Dragons... or really CB/CS anything that has a really powerful attack) an unfair edge. Losing one Pokemon off the bat is recoverable in 6 v 6 where each Pokemon is less central to a team... losing a Pokemon in 3 v 3 can instantly cost you the match. Such things wouldn't be such a big issue where the object is just to have fun, but where people are keeping track of rating and jostling for leaderboards, it's not good at all.

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat PlatypusVenom

Maybe, but the prevos wouldn't have movesets that vary that much. To make up for their lack of difference, they could have completely different stats but evolve into something that is a more balanced compilation of their stats, like Regice and Regirock evolving into Registeel (I'm not at all saying that should happen. It is merely an example of extreme stats --> balanced stats).

While i can see the "divergent stats -> balanced stats" argument, I think the different movesets thing is a sticking point.

If A and B both evolve into C, the question is why we needed to do this other than "just because we can." If A has moveset Y, B has moveset Z, and C a weak moveset W, then C can have either ZW or YW. If Z and Y are radically different, than Pokemon C is effectively EITHER role ZW or role YW, but not both.

Think of it this way: Infernape can be either a special sweeper or a physical sweeper or a mixed sweeper. When you come in on Infernape, you're not sure what it is until it attacks. Pokemon C, I think, should be like this. But it shouldn't have the "mixed" role - it should have either of two radically different roles, meaning that once you figured out the role, you know what the pokemon is.

Now, if you want to make it increasingly silly, make it such that a ZW and YW pokemon on the same team could do something dumb (think Starter combo moves)... but since they'd never be allowed on the same team, the combo wouldn't work (outside of the use of evolite).

Suppose ZW was a physical sweeper with fire/ground while YW was a special sweeper with water/ice moves. Your opponent would have to guess whether their steel type walled it. And that's an interesting game mechanic that makes scouting more relevant.

I actually think a A or B evolves to C pokemon is a great idea IF and only IF it utilizes the "two strategies" option. And this is relatively easy to do with coverage and special/physical movesets.

Suppose pokemon A had (tier 1 final moves) Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Extreme Speed, Stone Edge and Multiscale when it evolved to C, and Pokemon B had Ice Beam, Hydropump, Aura Sphere, and Shadow Ball with Magic Bounce when it evolved to C. If C had Infernape's IVs (just because I'm lazy), it'd be super hard to deal with w/o predicting it first. Sure, you'd know it was never mixed... but you wouldn't know if you should burn it or stealth rock it, etc.

[Mario With Lasers]

Originally Posted by Fat Scorpio

I say Xerneas is gonna be part Normal, most likely Normal/Steel. Fighting weakness will suck, but I don't see it having high defenses for an Uber anyways.

You guys heard it here first.

Jesus, if that happens, I'm going to eat my old DS Lite

Originally Posted by Fat breh

The 3v3 format is actually pretty ok; I had a good bit of fun with it in PBR days so I imagine it's not impossible to do so if you have nonshit wifi to aid you along the way. I really look forward to WPA compatibility and what it'll do for Pokemon.

How would WPA compatibility be any different than WEP for battles ?__?

[R_N]

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

Jesus, if that happens, I'm going to eat my old DS Lite



How would WPA compatibility be any different than WEP for battles ?__?

And aren't BW1/2 already WPA compatible

[Subject 18]

I think this is how Chespin came to be for anyone wondering...

...

---

[breh]

Originally Posted by Fat R_N

And aren't BW1/2 already WPA compatible

http://techforums.nintendo.com/thread/6197

At this time, there are no Nintendo DSi games that are compatible with WPA security.

I'm pretty sure that WPA doesn't work, even with a 3DS. It's really irritating to have to go back and forth from format to format.

[shockwave527]

Originally Posted by Fat Yveltal

I wanna know why the male player character looks like Egoraptor.

Hated him at first. Now I'm warming up because of this comment.



Also, a thing on the whole type triangle thing:
Let's look at what starters have become dual type based on type and generation

_______1____2____3____4____5
Water__N____N____Y____Y____N
Fire____Y____N____Y____Y____Y
Grass___Y___N____N____Y____N

Here, you can clearly see that IN NO GENERATION has their been a repeat of starters gaining two types. Now, GF may not keep this pattern, but if they do:

Not only is it impossible for them to do another YYY type triangle, but they can't even give fire a dual type.

Not saying this is going to happen this way, but it's something I've noticed and seems to be a good rule of thumb.


EDIT (Also in later comment, but decided to put it here for those reading through)
Better explantation:
They have never had the same types gain a double type. That means if, in one generation, fire became dual-type while grass and water did not, that has not happened again. Looking at the chart, every combination of types being dual and single has been different, and no series of Ys and Ns in a generation matches that of another column.

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat shockwave527

Hated him at first. Now I'm warming up because of this comment.



Also, a thing on the whole type triangle thing:
Let's look at what starters have become dual type based on type and generation

_______1____2____3____4____5
Water__N____N____Y____Y____N
Fire____Y____N____Y____Y____Y
Grass___Y___N____N____Y____N

Here, you can clearly see that IN NO GENERATION has their been a repeat of starters gaining two types. Now, GF may not keep this pattern, but if they do:

Not only is it impossible for them to do another YYY type triangle, but they can't even give fire a dual type.

Not saying this is going to happen this way, but it's something I've noticed and seems to be a good rule of thumb.

I... have no idea what you're referring to with the sentence "Here, you can clearly see that IN NO GENERATION has their been a repeat of starters gaining two types." The scentence is, quite simply, nonsense. Maybe you could try explaining it again? Clearly something went wrong when you were writing that scentence.