Pokémon X and Y Discussion

[Preved Medved]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Fire/Water would actually be amazing, methinks. Being able to capitalise on double STABs in either sun or rain says something. If this was actually an actual non-starter Pokemon with Chlorophyll/Swift Swim as possible abilities, I can see this being pretty big in the meta.

Cloud Nine would be better.Something that counters all weather would easily be in the top 3 or suspect list.

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat CynicalGiant

I love fighting types, but I honestly think they may be a tad too strong.

Game Freak would have to do the following to fix it:
Buff Flying types
Buff Flying Moves
Buff Bug Types
Buff Poison Types
Buff Ghost types

Flying types are already pretty strong - as is evidenced by their use in wifi 3 on 3 and triples.
Flying type moves are already pretty strong, although I do wish there was a better distributed "flying beam".
Bug types could use some cool stuff...
Poison type moves are "so bad" I could see some overwhelming damage moves (read: 160 physical poison 5pp - recoil; 140 special, self-toxic...).
Ghosts are fine.

[The Agonist]

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

Flying types are already pretty strong - as is evidenced by their use in wifi 3 on 3 and triples.
Flying type moves are already pretty strong, although I do wish there was a better distributed "flying beam".
Bug types could use some cool stuff...
Poison type moves are "so bad" I could see some overwhelming damage moves (read: 160 physical poison 5pp - recoil; 140 special, self-toxic...).
Ghosts are fine.

No, Ghost-types need better moves. The strongest Ghost-typed attacks are Shadow Claw, at a measly 70 BP, and Shadow Ball, at 80 BP.

Also, your Special Poison move idea with a "self-Toxic" effect would be literally useless, since the only types that would use it are Poison types, which are immune to it.

[Arash]

a fire/grass type would boast a whopping 2 resists (grass and steel), so other than being the ultimate ferrothorn counter, it'd need to be fast and powerful to compete...

what i would really like to see is some sort of boost to the ice type... i know ice as a type is meant to be good offensively / bad defensively (kinda like how poison and steel are the opposite), but something like a 1.5x def boost in hail (like rocks in sandstorm) would do wonders for the likes of glaceon, regice, and especially cloyster.

[labarith]

a) I'm pretty sure GF could code the poison move so that it would badly poison the user regardless of immunity (like glare paralyzes ground types...).

b) He said Ghost TYPES, not Ghost moves. I know it's nitpicky, but he made the distinction (as you can see, re: flying).

You're right, of course, Ghost MOVES could use some love. A Ghost-Scald would be nice; and I'm sure the occasional "ghost beam"-esque move would be okay.... I don't know what I'd want for the big bad ghost move... a ghost close combat - either physical or special - would be useless on defensive ghosts, and the drawback would be useless on other ghosts, which are usually glass cannons...

I think I'd prefer Ghosts got more utility moves. A resurrection move, for example (faints the user, resurrects another pokemon with 25% health?) would be tech, while a ghost heat wave would be pretty thematically cool, I think.

Still, I think "fields" are the way to go to boost Ghosts... having a graveyard field (and a move that turned the field into a graveyard, more or less rain dance for field) would be pretty neat. Let Graveyards increase the power of ghost moves and dark moves by 50% and maybe increase ghost evasion by one stage?

[The Agonist]

Walrein, Kyurem, Regice, and to a lesser extent, Abomasnow and Glaceon would all benefit greatly from that, but the rest of them are really still very frail even with a defense boost.

Originally Posted by Fat labarith

a) I'm pretty sure GF could code the poison move so that it would badly poison the user regardless of immunity (like glare paralyzes ground types...).

b) He said Ghost TYPES, not Ghost moves. I know it's nitpicky, but he made the distinction (as you can see, re: flying).

The difference is that ground types can be paralyzed, poison types cannot be poisoned without having their type changed. And please, please do not suggest that the move should then change their type.

And getting better moves is still a boost to Ghost-types.

I think I'd prefer Ghosts got more utility moves. A resurrection move, for example (faints the user, resurrects another pokemon with 25% health?) would be tech, while a ghost heat wave would be pretty thematically cool, I think.

Still, I think "fields" are the way to go to boost Ghosts... having a graveyard field (and a move that turned the field into a graveyard, more or less rain dance for field) would be pretty neat. Let Graveyards increase the power of ghost moves and dark moves by 50% and maybe increase ghost evasion by one stage?

No for the resurrection move, and fuck no for the Graveyard "field".

[Saboros]

Originally Posted by Fat shockwave527

Hated him at first. Now I'm warming up because of this comment.



Also, a thing on the whole type triangle thing:
Let's look at what starters have become dual type based on type and generation

_______1____2____3____4____5
Water__N____N____Y____Y____N
Fire____Y____N____Y____Y____Y
Grass___Y___N____N____Y____N

Here, you can clearly see that IN NO GENERATION has their been a repeat of starters gaining two types. Now, GF may not keep this pattern, but if they do:

Not only is it impossible for them to do another YYY type triangle, but they can't even give fire a dual type.

Not saying this is going to happen this way, but it's something I've noticed and seems to be a good rule of thumb.


EDIT (Also in later comment, but decided to put it here for those reading through)
Better explantation:
They have never had the same types gain a double type. That means if, in one generation, fire became dual-type while grass and water did not, that has not happened again. Looking at the chart, every combination of types being dual and single has been different, and no series of Ys and Ns in a generation matches that of another column.

Instead of visualizing patterns that are obviously coincidences, you should observe the fact that we see Chespin, the grass starter, use a dark type move, Fennekin, the fire starter, use a psychic type move and we see Froakie, the water starter, use a fighting type move. They wouldn't show this if they weren't planning on having them be these types. Plus, Fighting, Dark and Psychic create another rock-paper-scissor-like battle triangle (even though one part results in an immunity).

[Deglas]

Originally Posted by Fat Mario With Lasers

Black holes.

And the perfect Pokemon to get Black Holes are... Darkrai and Gardevoir!
Look at Gardevoir's Dex entries, for Pete's sake. How could this not get a Black Hole move?

[Hamstern]

Originally Posted by Fat Saboros

Instead of visualizing patterns that are obviously coincidences, you should observe the fact that we see Chespin, the grass starter, use a dark type move, Fennekin, the fire starter, use a psychic type move and we see Froakie, the water starter, use a fighting type move. They wouldn't show this if they weren't planning on having them be these types. Plus, Fighting, Dark and Psychic create another rock-paper-scissor-like battle triangle (even though one part results in an immunity).

I can agree that Fennekin definetely looks like it using a psychic type attack, but the other attacks are not that clear. Chespins attack looks lika it could aslo be Arial Ace and I fail to see how Froakies attack looks fighting at all. It looks like Spark or Thunderpunch too me..

[Yveltal]

Originally Posted by Fat Saboros

Instead of visualizing patterns that are obviously coincidences, you should observe the fact that we see Chespin, the grass starter, use a dark type move, Fennekin, the fire starter, use a psychic type move and we see Froakie, the water starter, use a fighting type move. They wouldn't show this if they weren't planning on having them be these types. Plus, Fighting, Dark and Psychic create another rock-paper-scissor-like battle triangle (even though one part results in an immunity).

Yes, Sabo. They would show them using techniques outside of their natural attributes Because they want to get observant people talking and speculating. Do you remember back when Reshiram and Zekrom were revealed, and before the official typing leak (and eventual official reveal), people thought it to be clearly obvious that Reshiram was going to be the new Light-type? Game Freak has become an expert in stringing its fans along. Instead of observing obvious patterns in advertising, you should try reading them for what they really are and not go too far into believing something that has yet to be revealed as fact by the company instead of picking on other people who are trying to grow speculation about possibilities. Also, Jolteon won the prize for saying they would be Grass/Dark, Fire/Psychic and Water/Fighting for the 1,000th time in this post. the 1001st caller gets nothing but shady looks.
Poor shockwave. He was only trying to get people to think.

Anyway, MY personal theory that I'm not joking about at all when it comes to the starters final evolutionary stages are the following types/type combinations:
Grass/Rock, Fire, Water/Fighting
Or, they really do plan to make all three singal-typed or dual typed during the even generations. In which case I believe in the prospect of:
Grass, Fire, Water

And let's all remember that it's OK to speculate, but Ninetales has latent psychic tendencies and Gardevoir can use Magical Leaf.

[Preved Medved]

Originally Posted by Fat Saboros

Instead of visualizing patterns that are obviously coincidences, you should observe the fact that we see Chespin, the grass starter, use a dark type move, Fennekin, the fire starter, use a psychic type move and we see Froakie, the water starter, use a fighting type move. They wouldn't show this if they weren't planning on having them be these types. Plus, Fighting, Dark and Psychic create another rock-paper-scissor-like battle triangle (even though one part results in an immunity).

Sorry,only the 1000th person to say this get a prize.

[Quickster]

Originally Posted by Fat Saboros

Instead of visualizing patterns that are obviously coincidences, you should observe the fact that we see Chespin, the grass starter, use a dark type move, Fennekin, the fire starter, use a psychic type move and we see Froakie, the water starter, use a fighting type move. They wouldn't show this if they weren't planning on having them be these types. Plus, Fighting, Dark and Psychic create another rock-paper-scissor-like battle triangle (even though one part results in an immunity).

And I suppose you have definitive proof that the moves used were of those types? I don't want to drag this on because it's been said 1000s of times already, but the moves could be many things. Chespin's move looks a lot like Aerial Ace, Fennekin's move could be Growl/Snarl/Extrasensory and Froakie's move doesn't even look that much like a Fighting-type move.

[TM13IceBeam]

You can't yet discount the possibility that they could be showing off moves introduced in Gen 6.

[zyrefredric]

I'm a huge fan of Trick Room and Gravity, so I'm hoping to see new field effects. Gen6 brought Wonder Room and Magic Room, but they were lackluster. I hope we'd get to have something like this:

...

---

Bizarre Room - Psychic - 30 PP - The types the Pokemon are resistant and weak to are switched. The types it is neutral and immune to remain the same. This effect lasts for five turns. Using Wonder Room while the effects are already active will cause the effects to cease.

Let's say Fire Punch-less Golurk (Ghost/Ground) uses Bizarre Room as Ferrothorn (Steel/Grass) comes in, hoping to Power Whip for the KO. With Bizarre Room in play, Golurk now resists Water, Grass, Ice, Ghost and Dark, but weak to Poison(4x), Bug and Rock. Ferrothorn, on the other hand, now resists Fire(4x) and Fighting, but weak to Normal, Water, Electric, Grass(4x), Psychic, Rock, ghost, Ground, Dragon, Dark and Steel. Easy win for Golurk there.

This move really messes up with typing, that I bet so much can be learned from this move. Take a look at the example below:

Magnezone (Electric/Steel)
immune: Poison
4x resist: Ground
2x resist: Fire, Fighting
neutral: Water
2x weak: Normal, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
4x weak: Flying, Steel

If the field effect above is not to your liking, it could easily be replaced by a held item that has the same effect. This way, you could slap it to your Pokemon, or even Trick it to your opponent, to manipulate weaknesses and resistances. Not that fatfetch'd of an idea, right? And I'm guessing it would have some very interesting impacts to the metagame.

[MLaRF]

I wanted to respond to Saboros' post but you guys pretty much got it covered. Glad to see there are more people not being definitive about things like this, thank y'all! Anywhales, movin' on.

Originally Posted by Fat zyrefredric

I'm a huge fan of Trick Room and Gravity, so I'm hoping to see new field effects. Gen6 brought Wonder Room and Magic Room, but they were lackluster. I hope we'd get to have something like this:

...

---

Bizarre Room - Psychic - 30 PP - The types the Pokemon are resistant and weak to are switched. The types it is neutral and immune to remain the same. This effect lasts for five turns. Using Wonder Room while the effects are already active will cause the effects to cease.

Let's say Fire Punch-less Golurk (Ghost/Ground) uses Bizarre Room as Ferrothorn (Steel/Grass) comes in, hoping to Power Whip for the KO. With Bizarre Room in play, Golurk now resists Water, Grass, Ice, Ghost and Dark, but weak to Poison(4x), Bug and Rock. Ferrothorn, on the other hand, now resists Fire(4x) and Fighting, but weak to Normal, Water, Electric, Grass(4x), Psychic, Rock, ghost, Ground, Dragon, Dark and Steel. Easy win for Golurk there.

This move really messes up with typing, that I bet so much can be learned from this move. Take a look at the example below:

Magnezone (Electric/Steel)
immune: Poison
4x resist: Ground
2x resist: Fire, Fighting
neutral: Water
2x weak: Normal, Electric, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Bug, Rock, Ghost, Dragon, Dark
4x weak: Flying, Steel

If the field effect above is not to your liking, it could easily be replaced by a held item that has the same effect. This way, you could slap it to your Pokemon, or even Trick it to your opponent, to manipulate weaknesses and resistances. Not that fatfetch'd of an idea, right? And I'm guessing it would have some very interesting impacts to the metagame.

This would be cool, and even though I wouldn't say it's a likely 6th gen addition, it certainly does seem like the kind of thing gamefreak would make. It would totally fuck up the metagame (GF's specialty), and totally make it difficult for new players who are just getting a hang of the game, but...

[Infernis]

Major impacts: Rock, Poison, and Ice become occasionally radical defensive types. Steel is weak to everything.

[Ryanide]

I know it's kind of an oxymoron as far as type combinations go, but I just realised how strong a Ghost/Steel type Pokemon would be for countering strong fighting type pokemon.

It would be immune to toxic, toxic spikes and fighting moves, resist stealth rock, be neutral to Dark (fighting type often have dark moves like payback to take care of ghosts) resistant to Stone Edge and if it had levitate, it could get over Earthquake too, leaving only Fire Punch on the common threat list.

But what on earth could a levitating ghost/steel pokemon even be?

[rh2012]

Originally Posted by Fat Preved Medved

Sorry,only the 1000th person to say this get a prize.

Originally Posted by Fat Yveltal

Also, Jolteon won the prize for saying they would be Grass/Dark, Fire/Psychic and Water/Fighting for the 1,000th time in this post. the 1001st caller gets nothing but shady looks.

Sorry guys, only the 1000th person to say "the 1000th person gets a prize" gets 1000 prizes

[Saboros]

Originally Posted by Fat Quickster

And I suppose you have definitive proof that the moves used were of those types? I don't want to drag this on because it's been said 1000s of times already, but the moves could be many things. Chespin's move looks a lot like Aerial Ace, Fennekin's move could be Growl/Snarl/Extrasensory and Froakie's move doesn't even look that much like a Fighting-type move.

Chespin's attack looks identical to Night Slash, Fennekin's attack is obviously a psychic type move, to deny that would be ignorant, and you can say that to say Froakie's attack is fighting type is a slight leap, but it obviously looks like a close combat like attack (obviously not close combat because 1st forms are weak as hell). You should also use common sense, they show the grass, fire and water type attacks to signify the new starters roles, grass, fire and water respectively, that is obvious. Now why would they show these other attacks if they had nothing to do with what type they would be. Oh we are just going to show Fennekin using a random psychic type move, but it will have nothing to do with his type or anything like that, it's just for shits and giggles. That, I really doubt.

[MLaRF]

Originally Posted by Fat Ryanide

I know it's kind of an oxymoron as far as type combinations go, but I just realised how strong a Ghost/Steel type Pokemon would be for countering strong fighting type pokemon.

It would be immune to toxic, toxic spikes and fighting moves, resist stealth rock, be neutral to Dark (fighting type often have dark moves like payback to take care of ghosts) resistant to Stone Edge and if it had levitate, it could get over Earthquake too, leaving only Fire Punch on the common threat list.

But what on earth could a levitating ghost/steel pokemon even be?

sorry for posting twice really quickly but i only have so much library computer time

Ghost/steel doesn't really seem that big of an oxymoron to me. Maybe because ghosts are ex-living things and steel is things that generally aren't alive, but there are probably bigger oxymorons out there. Idk, flavour-wise it would kinda make sense if they did something like bronzong or golurk, those are great pokemon in terms of flavour (imo).

Also, I highly, highly doubt gamefreak would make a ghost/steel with levitate. I know it's the competitive player's dream, but that's exactly why, because it's too broken to be used in the normal game. Also, because it would basically outclass every steel/psychic, like jirachi and metagross, who are supposed to be powerful, late-game beasts. But then again, 5th gen was nearly as power creep as yugioh, so i shouldn't rely on that point.

[Ryanide]

It's also interesting to note that Froakie's first attack could be Ice Beam rather than Water Gun. Looking closely at the animation, you can see that the spray is made up of little snowflake particles.

As for a theoretical ghost/steel type with levitate, who says it has to have excellent stats to go with it's excellent typing? It could have a fairly mediocre spread, erring on the side of having low special defense. That way it would wall heavy physical attackers decently but a strong fire-type special sweeper could chase it away.

Kinda like how Amoongus and Jellicent get away with walling things even though their stats aren't that great.

[King Serperior]

In response to my Earlier post, I willl explain my reasoning, slim and shaky as it may be:

If you look at Chespin's body, it looks like grass after it's been burned to the ground. How did it get burned if not for it's parent's accidental fire?
Fennekin is a little less.....percise an explaination, but foxes DO hunt for fish. How many fire types are willing to get their feet wet, if you'll excuse the pun.
Finally, the Croakie typing is MUCH easier to explain: Frogs sit on lily pads, do they not? Lily pads are plans......it makes sense that they could have some relationship.

[Jimera0]

Froakie's attack is definitely NOT Ice beam... if you pause and look at it it's clearly not snowflakes, but spray. Those are rings of froth on that beam of water, something that has been used to denote water in the Pokemon series since generation 1

Saboros, you are the one being ignorant here (you used that word completely wrong btw). There are other attacks that can be displayed as pink waves. Just look at Tickle from Pokemon Colosseum (sorry couldn't find an image. Take my word that it's depicted as wavy pink lines traveling towards the foe before creating a series of pink wavy rings around the target on contact, similar to the effect that move had on Kirla in the trailer). While it could be a psychic attack, it also might NOT be.

While I believe that you are probably right, denying the possibility that you might be wrong, especially when you're operating on such thin evidence, is flat out foolish.

[celever]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Froakie's attack is definitely NOT Ice beam... if you pause and look at it it's clearly not snowflakes, but spray. Those are rings of froth on that beam of water, something that has been used to denote water in the Pokemon series since generation 1

Saboros, you are the one being ignorant here (you used that word completely wrong btw). There are other attacks that can be displayed as pink waves. Just look at Tickle from Pokemon Colosseum (sorry couldn't find an image. Take my word that it's depicted as wavy pink lines traveling towards the foe before creating a series of pink wavy rings around the target on contact, similar to the effect that move had on Kirla in the trailer). While it could be a psychic attack, it also might NOT be.

While I believe that you are probably right, denying the possibility that you might be wrong, especially when you're operating on such thin evidence, is flat out foolish.

To be fair, they really do look like snowflakes! But they could easily be spray as well.
Ah... Colosseum. I remember as a kid I used to love that tickle animation! xD Is it sad that I can remember what it looks like? :P

[Yveltal]

Originally Posted by Fat Saboros

Chespin's attack looks identical to Night Slash, Fennekin's attack is obviously a psychic type move, to deny that would be ignorant, and you can say that to say Froakie's attack is fighting type is a slight leap, but it obviously looks like a close combat like attack (obviously not close combat because 1st forms are weak as hell). You should also use common sense, they show the grass, fire and water type attacks to signify the new starters roles, grass, fire and water respectively, that is obvious. Now why would they show these other attacks if they had nothing to do with what type they would be. Oh we are just going to show Fennekin using a random psychic type move, but it will have nothing to do with his type or anything like that, it's just for shits and giggles. That, I really doubt.

You clearly haven't watched ANY of Game Freaks other commercials.
BW commercial, Tsutarja uses Leaf storm in a fight against an Oshawott (or was it Zekrom? I don't remember.)
Starters are weak STATISTICALLY. All pokemon really gain from evolving is a stat increase, but they learn the same techniques at a slower rate than in their basic forms in most cases You do know that you can keep your Bulbasaur from evolving and it'll learn Solarbeam faster than if it were Venusaur, right?
And once again, they would showcase those techniques so ignorant ravers like you can get up in everyone elses business pushing your uppity agenda about how everyone else needs to believe the same things you do. Why is it that because you have an idea in your head that you really like, other people can't hypothesize?

On another note, Froakies attack isn't Icebeam because it's accompanied with a washing, spraying sound. The kind you hear when your Wailord uses Water Spout, or Surf. Otherwise it's easy to misconstrue. Water's pretty hard to animate in 3D software, after all.

ps. Grass/Rock, Fire, Water/Ice ftw