The Next Best Thing...

fatty · Jan 15th, 2013, 11:19:03 PM

The Next Best Thing...

What is this?:

I for one, along with many others I'm sure, feel as though there is some untapped power within the UU environment. There is substantial evidence for this idea in the form of one commonality for most tiers, UU included: there always seems to be one or more new-fangled, hyped up sets that weren't originally main-stay or seen as "viable" by the community, but somehow has taken the metagame by storm. This can be seen in DPP OU (with Special Lucario transitioning to SD Lucario, Heatran eventually running items other than Choice Scarf, and the influx of ChestoRest Kingdra) in ADV (with the vaunted TyraniBoah now becoming almost an urban myth in comparison to Special and DD Tyranitar, and the increasing popularity of SupeRachi) and in BW OU (with the advent of SubSalac Terrakion, SubDisable Gengar, and ChestoRest Volcarona). Yes, some of these sets may have been found early on with respect to the creation of the tier or fairly recently, the point is, though, that there seems to be an endless supply of effective and potent sets out there yet to be discovered, especially factoring in metagame swings and the possible tier shifts. The purpose of this project will be to systematically subject each and every UU pokemon to a collective body of research in an attempt to uncover these "hidden gems", so to speak, and hopefully spark some creativity throughout the UU community.

The Process:

Each week, I will choose a different UU Pokemon, sometimes chosen by random, sometimes chosen by curiousity, of which participants will try to personally create a new set for that is not already on-site or in the process of being put on-site. Participants will be given 5 days to create their set, with discussion about the particular sets being promoted throughout, and on the 6th and 7th day of the week, a vote will be held to choose which user's set represented the most creative and simultaneously competivitely viable set to utilize in the current UU metagame. Once the votes are tallied and a winner is crowned, the set will be archived in the OP and the process will start all over again for the next pokemon specimen.

What are we looking for?:

Specifically, I want to stress the importance of the balance between creativity and viability when picking a set to post for the Pokemon in question. There's a very fine line between a "creative" set and a "gimmick", and this project is not meant to produce gimmicks, rather emphasize the ability to think outside the box when using a specific Pokemon in order to maximize it's potential. Having said that, I would also like to deviate from simple one move / item changes. For example, using Lum Berry over Life Orb on an SD Virizion does nothing to show any untapped potential Virizion has because we already have a basic understanding of what SD Virizion is and does, it's just now better at dealing with status and has less power. The same goes for using Iron Head over Stone Edge on SD Cobalion, it doesn't yield productive discussion or results for the project. I am looking for sets that test what we think we know about checks or counters, so-called standards, and what it means to be viable. Maybe a particular option for a Pokemon looks inferior at first glance for that particular pokemon, but dig deeper and try and find what it might mean in the big picture, for the entire team.

The next test subject is...

Flygon!

Some things to consider:

What is thought to "counter" this pokemon?
Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters?
What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside?
What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame?
What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against?
How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates?

fatty · Jan 15th, 2013, 11:19:33 PM

Archived Sets

(set name - creator)

CB Scrafty - cim

...

Flame Charge Chandelure - TPO3

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Choice Specs Abomasnow - LionKingMax

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Bulk Up Mew - Ace Emerald

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Metal Sound Zapdos - Pokemazter

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Special Defense Virizion - PTJon7

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Choice Specs Xatu - Pokemazter

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SubSalac Darmanitan - kokoloko

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Work Up Meloetta - kokoloko

...

cim · Jan 16th, 2013, 1:16:25 AM

I haven't used Scrafty much, but a set I tried a little that I've been meaning to test some more seems to fit this challenge really well.

Scrafty's biggest problem is that it can't do much of anything to Crobat and Heracross (and to a lesser extent Gligar), who can both switch into any Scrafty set, outspeed, and KO. While this set doesn't do much to prevent revenge kills, it does make Scrafty a potent threat with no setup, which makes it harder to deal with and just might bait and kill a potential Heracross counter. Any offensive team that ends in a Heracross or Mienshao sweep could benefit from this Scrafty.

Scrafty @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 20 Spe (can run up to 220 EVs to catch 0 Speed Suicune / Gligar, but HP is really nice)
Nature: Adamant
- Hi Jump Kick
- Crunch
- Ice Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Simple concept - use Intimidate and Scrafty's underrated bulk to come in easily and force a switch, then use Team Preview and your manly prediction skills to pick the right move. Unlike the standard Scrafty, Zen Headbutt always OHKOs Crobat and Heracross after Stealth Rock. Ice Punch gets Crobat 68% of the time and will always 2HKO Gligar and force it to Roost every turn - loses 1 on 1 in the long run to hax or a CH. HJK and Crunch are your standard issue STAB attacks - HJK is particularly useful because (1) since CB is so rare, no Ghosts would recklessly switch in, and (2) its high Base Power makes up for his rather low Attack stat.

Another option for Scrafty is Substitute + Focus Punch, which gives it more ability to respond to revenge kills and a bit more damage output than standard Scrafty, but it needs a Life Orb to have a shot at one-hitting Crobat and Heracross with Zen Headbutt, and obviously you can't run 5 moves so you lose to Gligar.

Cassen · Jan 16th, 2013, 3:21:07 AM

LO Scrafty has a lot of 2HKO potential without any boosts, and with Super Fang, many of them become OHKO's even without SR Damage.

(Scrafty) @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 180 Def / 20 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Super Fang
- Drain Punch
- Crunch
- Ice Punch/Dragon Tail/Taunt

The idea is to have Scrafty come in on either a physically based pokemon that fears its stabs (Weavile, Ambipom, Krookodile, Sharpedo, ect.) or any poke that fears its stabs and can't hit back (Ghost-Types without HP Fighting, Umbreon). Because of Intimidate, Scrafty typically forces the opponent to switch into one of its usual checks or counters - that's where Super Fang comes in. Anything coming in will be at 50% health or below assuming hazards are up, allowing Scrafty to either stay in for a OHKO, or to leave and allow one of its proper team mates to come in and deal with the weakened pokemon. In either case, having a pokemon lose 50% of its health upon switching makes that pokemon much easier to handle for either Scrafty or a team mate. It can, in some cases, force another switch if the opponent doesn't want to risk losing a pokemon - this makes hazard support a nice pair with this Scrafty.

Super Fang does not incur recoil damage from LO, making it a safe spam-able move on anything looking to check/counter Scrafty, as well as allowing you to not reveal what Scrafty's held item is. The only thing immune to Super Fang are ghost types, and those are all dealt with nicely thanks to Crunch.

The given bulk along with Intimidate allows a 100% healthy Scrafty to never be 2HKO's by Scarf Victini's V Create and CB Flygon's Outrage even after SR Damage upon switching into the first hit (Allowing it to switch in with intimidate and counter with Crunch/Ice Punch Respectively, though Scrafty will die if he connects a hit with either of them due to LO recoil). It can also live a Brave Bird from Stallbreaker Crobat and retaliate with an Ice Punch, even without Intimidate.

Speed EV's allow it to outspeed uninvested base 60 speed poke's and below - the notable ones include Swampert, Empoleon, Porygon2 - allowing it to win 1-on-1 thanks to Super Fang and Drain Punch. The Speed EV's also makes Taunt and Dragon Tail somewhat viable moves, since Swamperts and Empoleons that pack phasing moves can be possible answers the opponent might throw at you to counter Scrafty due to most folks most assuming Scrafty is packing a set-up move. With Taunt, Scrafty is also able to Anti-lead certain Physically based pokes that are slower than it; notable ones include Rhyperior, Registeel, and Bronzong (again, Scrafty can beat them all 1-on-1 thanks to Super Fang and Drain Punch). Ice Punch however is the preferred move, since it gives Scrafty a way to deal Flygon, Gligar, and Crobat.

vigi · Jan 16th, 2013, 3:35:30 AM

After seeing Kyurem-B tearing apart OU with it's SubRoost set, I thought maybe Scrafty could run something similar, using Rest + Shed Skin, but I couldn't manage to use it to it's full potential. It's supposed to look more or less like this:

Scrafty @ Leftovers
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Dragon Tail

Nyara · Jan 16th, 2013, 5:42:20 AM

I'm not doing or posting a set because I should test a lot a set to see if that's viable or not, so, on it's place, I'll just post an refference post to help others to make sets for this little guy.

Discarded stuff and why:

...

So, it leaves us with the next list of viable moves:

Prediction: Focus Punch, Low Sweep, Rock Tomb
Figthing (STAB): Hi Jump Kick, Drain Punch, Brick Break, Low Kick
Dark (STAB): Payback, Crunch, Foul Play
Rock: Stone Edge, Rock Tomb, Head Smash, Rock Slide, Smack Down
Coverage (1): Zen Headbutt, Poison Jab, Dragon Claw, Rock Climb, Return
Coverage (2): Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, Fire Punch
Helpers: Fake Out, Super Fang, Dual Chop, Dig, Snarl
Surprise/Gimnnicky: Fling, Knock Off, Thief, Counter, Grass Knot

Support: Torment, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Taunt
Extra Moves: Substitute, Rest, Sleep Talk, Snatch, Protect, Spite, Sand-Attack
Setup Moves: Amnesia, Bulk Up, Iron Defense, Dragon Dance
Phazing: Dragon Tail, Roar

More viable options are at the left, also, it's ordered in "groups" as how you could use the move, for example, we'll use Hi Jump Kick almost at the same circunstances as Drain Punch.

Some synergy notes:

Don't use Roar or Foul Play with Bulk Up, use Dragon Tail, then.
Don't use Payback with Dragon Dance, use Crunch, then.
Don't use Focus Punch without Substitute, use Hi Jump Kick, then.

Don't use Low Sweep with Rock Tomb, just use one
Don't use Brick Break with Drain Punch or Low Kick, just use one

Don't use Roar or Dragon Tail with Dragon Dance. (May exist exceptions)
Don't use Weather without abussers and synergy cores.
Don't use Crunch and Payback on the same set.
Don't use Foul Play on any offensive set.

Usually, don't use Focus Punch/Phazing + Low Sweep/Rock Tomb
Usually, don't use more than one Rock Type move on the same set.

Amnesia usually comes handy with Rest, the same goes for Work Up.
Rest should only be used with Intimidate activated or with Shed Skin.

As notes comes, Low Sweep and Rock Tomb really helps to ease the prediction, but for make them work you need to spend a lot on speed, or you should be starting to use Dragon Dance, if all fails, it still helps to your team, anyway. Hi Jump Kick deals huge damage to anything that doesn't resist it, even without attack investment or buff, so, it should be considered on any set, but it can be forgoe or can be combined with Low Sweep or Drain Punch, depending if you're using a slow or kinda fast EV spread. Dual Chop should only used to break Substitutes or Focus Sashes, and it needs high inversion on attack, but it can comes handy as it makes Scrafty not so weak against Substitute sets.

I highly recomend Fake Out on any offensive set as it can allow you to land a good number of extra K.O's, and can comes even more handy if the target is badly poisoned. Rock Slide should be considered over other Rock moves if you're using Dragon Dance, as the flinch rate and extra accuracy can comes really handy. Head Smash is great, it deals massive damage, but Scrafty have low HP, so, don't expect to use it more as final struggle against some Pokémon. As Foul Play comes, you can use a defensive EV spread and abuse of Foul Play + High Jump Kick, it deals pretty good damage, but if you're unsure if your targets will have high attack; then combine it with Amnesia, they'll don't bother to attack you with special attacks in that way.

If Crobat and Heracross are on the rival's team, then play with more care, with Crobat try to spam more rock attacks or Zen Headbutts to make it think twice before switching-in, while with Heracross you can just spam Zen Headbutt to make it hard to switich-in, or use Rock Tomb to ease the prediction. Scrafty have the moves and the enough power to deal with them, but if they get a free switch while you're using a Fighthing or other coverage move, then you should run!

RestTalks sets seems viable, too. Torment can help A LOT on any stalling set, but a set like that should use Leaftovers and/or have Rest. Scrafty is also a pretty reliable weather setter, it can't abuse of it, but it does have the abilities, typing, and stats to do the job well, it also gives good defensive and ofensive type coverage with Rain and Sun teams.

FullBarrier Sets with Iron Defense + Amnesia + Roar can do a massive great job with stalling and racking up hazards damage, and Scrafty can overcome it's counters with the enough boosts, anyway, a set like that should have Leaftovers + Rest / Drain Punch.

Super Fang is cool on any set, just be sure with the calculator of the damage output of each normal attack, as you will know better with what move make company to Super Fang, and know how to play around it.

Metal Sonic · Jan 16th, 2013, 7:20:56 AM

A very good sweeper set. It is very creative, and powerful.

Scrafty @ Salac Berry
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Drain Punch

This set is pioneered by myself and also was deemed 'unviable' by others, I personally think it is powerful especially with Moxie Abuse and the Salac Berry pinch speed boost.

Crunch + Drain Punch gives almost unresisted coverage except for Heracross/Toxicroak. Therefore these pokemon should be taken out first(they're counters to all scrafty, anyway)

The Salac Berry is there to give that pinch speed boost, especially when Scrafty is so slow. Others may argue that it is redundant with Dragon Dance, but when you consider that +2 Scrafty is still outsped by majority of Scarf users, A +3 speed boosted by Salac is perfectly reasonable. Especially when you're in a pinch, you can spam substitiute and then get the speed boost, then OHKO the now-slower opponent.

Substitute is used to facilitate the salac berry, and take advantage of switches. IF a speedier opponent switches in, Substutute will come in more handy than a Dragon Dance will. Subspam till activating Salac Berry, then DDance and sweep.

Drain Punch is also useful for recovering HP which is lost by subbing.

Because Substitute is there to absorb status as well, Shed Skin is not needed. Put moxie instead. With Every Kill, you get more powerful. With +3 Speed, you will never be outsped by any opponent. At +3 speed and with a few boosts, its GG.

So:
1.Sub on switches/Status moves,
2a) If a scarfed revenger threat comes in, Spam Substitute until Salac activates. Then Dragon Dance and Kill.
2b) If a revenger comes in but you are sure it cannot OHKO, you can decide to spam Dragon Dance instead. Kill.
3)Acquire Moxie Boosts.
4)GG

This set has been tried and tested in multiple(a lot) UU battles, and practical tests and probing has proven it to actually work.
__________________

fatty · Jan 16th, 2013, 12:40:04 PM

Nice sets guys, keep them coming! Thanks nyara for that mini-guide for scrafty, it looks pretty helpful in sort of setting guidelines of what is potentially viable and what is not. I've used CB Scrafty for a bit after flareblitz posted about it and it is indeed actually very effective seeing that CB HJK hits like a truck. I'm also intrigued by that subsalac set, metal sonic, as it seems to be a creative way to bypass scrafty's annoying speed problem and make good use of moxie, and coupling it with dragon dance is very unique for a subsalac sweeper.

TPO3 · Jan 16th, 2013, 2:26:55 PM

This is a great idea for a thread.

Scrafty @Coba Berry
Trait: Shed Skin
Jolly Nature
16 HP/252 Atk/4 SpDef/236 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Hi Jump Kick
~Crunch
~Ice Punch

I can't come up with anything more creative, so I guess this one will have to do. Really just an item and ability change, as well as an EV tweak. Coba Berry reduces damage from Flying-type pokemon, so Scrafty can gain an extra boost or two. It also is a way to lure Crobat and Tornadus, which can make it easier for a teammate such as Heracross to sweep. Heracross would no longer need to try an predict when to use Stone Edge. The EV Spread is kinda tailor-made for the set. 252 Speed allows scrafty to outrun Tornadus by 1 point at +1, but with Coba berry, you don't need to. 236 Speed allows you to outrun base 108 and below at +1, so Cobalion and Virizion. 4 Special Defense means random stuff like Scarf Porygon-Z won't get a download boost. Max attack lets it hit as hard as it can, and the rest is dumped into HP for some bulk. Shed Skin is preferred over Moxie so you don't care as much about status. The goal of the set is to get an extra boost against Flying-types anyways, so you don't really need Moxie anyways.

Pokemazter · Jan 16th, 2013, 6:22:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat TPO3

This is a great idea for a thread.

Scrafty @Coba Berry
Trait: Shed Skin
Jolly Nature
16 HP/252 Atk/4 SpDef/236 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Hi Jump Kick
~Crunch
~Ice Punch

I can't come up with anything more creative, so I guess this one will have to do. Really just an item and ability change, as well as an EV tweak. Coba Berry reduces damage from Flying-type pokemon, so Scrafty can gain an extra boost or two. It also is a way to lure Crobat and Tornadus, which can make it easier for a teammate such as Heracross to sweep. Heracross would no longer need to try an predict when to use Stone Edge. The EV Spread is kinda tailor-made for the set. 252 Speed allows scrafty to outrun Tornadus by 1 point at +1, but with Coba berry, you don't need to. 236 Speed allows you to outrun base 108 and below at +1, so Cobalion and Virizion. 4 Special Defense means random stuff like Scarf Porygon-Z won't get a download boost. Max attack lets it hit as hard as it can, and the rest is dumped into HP for some bulk. Shed Skin is preferred over Moxie so you don't care as much about status. The goal of the set is to get an extra boost against Flying-types anyways, so you don't really need Moxie anyways.

I've found that using Drain Punch > Hi Jump Kick to be very useful on this set, as it allows Scrafty to recover HP due to that lack of Leftovers. There's a slight trade-off for power, but once you reach +2 or +3, it really doesn't matter.

fatty · Jan 17th, 2013, 6:41:37 PM

There's been a slight change of plans. Due to the fact that this project focuses all of it's power on a single Pokemon, a whole week left to dissect it's viable sets seems to be a bit too long. Because of this, I will be shortening the time period for posting sets from now on to about 2-3 days. This will help speed up the process and hopefully prevent downtime that leads to inactivity.

With that said, it's seems as though we already have a fair amount of solid choices to choose from, so I will be starting the voting period... now! Thanks for all the sets and input from everyone so far, and let the best set win!

*As for voting, if voters could just post the user's name who posted the most viable and/or intriguing set in bold, followed by a short, intelligent reasoning for as to why you chose this set, it would be much appreciated.

Rohail17 · Jan 17th, 2013, 7:37:15 PM

cim's CB set is what my vote goes to
The reason for this is because I have tried out all these sets, and CB was the most resourceful. When Scrafty gets sent out, people recklessly switch in their Dusclops or Cofa expecting me to set up and then proceed to burn me. Instead they get to eat a Crunch to the face and then I can pull of a clean sweep with my Heracross.

TPO3 · Jan 17th, 2013, 7:40:29 PM

I like cim's CB Scrafty set. Despite the fact that Scrafty doesn't hit as hard as Heracross or Mienshao, I think the explanation that CIM gives makes it a viable CB user. +1 HJK is going to hit pretty hard anyways. On top of this, Scrafty has great bulk, a couple resistances, and Intimidate, which will allow it to switch in more than once. It can also nab a few of its usual counters, in Zapdos, Crobat, and Heracross, which could potentially turn the tide in your favor.

Nyara · Jan 17th, 2013, 7:44:06 PM

I vote for the cim's set.

Not to much to say, it may look like the more simplest set ever, but it actually works to bypass it's counters and allows Scrafty to punch things hard and take good use of it's bulk with Intimidate and type, it's really simple, yet effective, it really hits like a truck while helping it's team. Oh, yeah, I could rather change Crunch for Payback as Scrafty will rarely outspeed something weak or neutral to Crunch, and it needs all the power that it can get, but it's still the best set.

From there, those will be only comments of the other sets to improve them.

...

About the other sets, Cassen's Super Fang Scrafty works pretty well, too, as it take a fantastic good use of it's good bulk and makes a wonderful synergy of offensive power + defensive power with Life Orb + Super Fang, but I could rather suggest the inclusion of Zen Headbutt on place of Ice Fang; you change Flygon for hit Crobat and Heracross's switch's-in harder, and having a best answer against stall teams with Poison Pokémon. I could voted for you, but the set is kinda weak to Spikes and Toxic Spikes as you'll have to switch-out too offen, and while Scrafty's bulky is pretty good, it will not endure enough with the recoil of Life Orb, or forgoing Leaftovers or Rest + Cleric Support. It does need more support, and the Choice Banded of cim doesn't need support at all and do the job almost as well as this, but it can comes handy on stall teams with Rapid Spinners. Best part: Easing prediction on a slow guy is really, really great. Oh, yeah, also, change Crunch for Payback, he will not outspeed anything important that may see Crunch a better option as most of the ghost, psychic guys and stuff are actually fasters.

I don't really like the other sets; Scrafty is too slow to put a Substitute set + Pinch Berry well as it's prone to Taunt, phazers, walls, Toxic Spikes, and stuff. TP03's sets is the best aproach to the concept, as it can bypass some of it's counters and use them as setup baits; a really wonderful idea, but again, Scrafty's bulky without HP investment or Intimidate is nothing good at all, so it may be hard for that Scrafty to find a time to set up and sweep on the game, and even if he gets the power, it's still prone to being revenge killed before of time, it can act as a good cleanner, but there're best cleanners that doesn't tend to fail at the job, while Scrafty can fail at doing it.

Metal Sonic's set; the Salac Berry one have a huge potential as sweeper, but it does fail to the classic problems of Pinch Berries sets on slow guys, it's prone to revenge killer, and it can't do nothing against it's counters. High-risk, but high-reward, good, but not what I'm finding, and worst when it does need team support.

Warb · Jan 17th, 2013, 7:55:34 PM

My vote goes to cim's CB Scrafty.
The way I see it, Scrafty is one of the most prominent Crobat baits in the UU metagame. Being a versed Crobat user myself, I can guarantee that whenever Scrafty comes in, a Crobat switch-in will follow right after. The reason is simple: Neither DD nor Bulk Up Scrafty is able to beat Crobat 1on1. DD is outsped and OHKOed even after +1 speed, while BulkUp gets 2HKOed while not being able to deal enough damage in return due to the lack of attack investment.
Banded Scrafty perfectly abuses this common knowledge (I guess this kind of knowledge is not that common on the ladder, but experienced UU players all know important facts like these) and punishes the Crobat switch-in with a straight OHKO after rocks. Now suddenly, the opponent's most important check to Roserade, Shaymin, Specs Yanmega, Heracross, Mienshao, Virizion, Machamp, Hitmontop and to a certain extent Umbreon is gone. Also, seeing as most people (myself included) use only ONE real Fighting check on their teams, it will be often the case where Crobat fulfills that particular role (I have honestly never seen Crobat and Gligar on the same team, I didn't look it up in the December stats though, so I might be wrong on that). With Crobat eliminated fairly early in the game, suddenly Heracross and friends can safely spam that STAB move with one less worry (because Psychics and Ghosts are also handled by Scrafty just fine, GOD if Scrafty just had access to Pursuit, it would be so damn good!).

TPO3's Coba Berry DD set is also a very nice idea, able to get to +2 Speed in the face of Crobat and then proceed to threaten everything on the opposing team. BUT, +2 speed will still fail to outspeed positive natured Base 95 Pokémon with a Choice Scarf, which will ultimately hinder this set's sweeping potential (given that Scrafty took one Brave Bird already with the Coba Berry, there will be only around 50% HP left which won't be enough to tank an incoming scarfer's hit).

Lastly, with all due respect, I don't see the point of SubSalac Scrafty at all.
There is simply no way that particular Scrafty set is gonna do anything to Crobat at all. Scrafty will either get up one DD or a Sub on the Crobat switch-in. In the former case, Crobat will just kill Scrafty off as it does with every other DD Scrafty. In the latter case, it will just taunt you to prevent you from Subbing down to your Salac Berry, after which it can just get rid of your sub, roost up once or twice (Crunch does 34-40% to standard Crobat, factoring in SR and Black Sludge, Scrafty can't 2HKO barring crits and 2 high damage rolls) and proceed to kill Scrafty afterwards.

tl;dr = cim's CB Scrafty wins for me, because it strays from the usual sweeping strategy in favor of a more focused niche stragety of eliminating common Fighting checks to ease the sweep of another Fighting type for later.
(btw, I didn't mention Gligar simply because Gligar can be checked by a variety of other Pokémon, while Crobat can be a potent threat on its own being arguably the best offensive pivot in the entire tier)

edit: I took too long on replying, got ninja'd by a bunch of people :x

fatty · Jan 19th, 2013, 3:33:29 PM

As much as I like the other sets posted here, I too will have to go with cim. I've actually used CB Scrafty extensively in conjunction with SD Cobalion (they're some of my two favorite fighters because they actually bring defensive synergy to a team) and it works beautifully. In fact, it's actually one of my favorite pokemon to lead with due to the good matchups it has against a lot of hazard layers, acting like a DPP Machamp. It's even more impressive during the midgame, though, 2HKOing the majority of the tier with the respective coverage move. Intimidate is just the cherry on top, allowing it switch in on a surprising amount of threats and acting as a psuedo revenge killer.

I'll be keeping voting open for a little while longer, but after that I will crown the winner and move on to the next UU specimen.

Edit: Alright then, it's unanimous, cim's CB Scrafty is the winner. Thanks for all the other good Scrafty sets posted, but cim's set proved to exemplify the greatest amount of creativity and viability, showing us yet again there's great sets out there begging to be discovered. CB Scrafty will be archived in the second post, and with that, let's move on to Mon #2. Per RT.'s humble request, this period we will be focusing our attention on the ominous light fixture of death, Chandelure!

Same rules apply, go at it!

TPO3 · Jan 20th, 2013, 5:20:30 PM

Chandelure @Life Orb
Trait: Flame Body
Modest Nature
16 HP/252 SpAtk/4 SpDef/236 Spe
~Flame Charge
~Fire Blast
~Shadow Ball
~Hidden Power Fighting/Energy Ball

The idea with this set would be to get the speed of a Scarf Chandelure, but still maintain all the power you want out of something with base 145 Special Attack. The 236 Speed EVs allow you to always get passed Weavile when you are at +1. You can run max speed if you want, but you don't get passed much more. Just the random Modest Scarf Rotom-H or Modest Scarf Porygon-Z. Flame Body so you don't get ruined by Trace Porygon2/Porygon-Z. I suppose its also worth mentioning that with Ghost typing, you're immune to Mach Punch, Extremespeed, and Quick Attack (lol.) Weak to Sucker Punch but that's the price you pay, I guess. This set is really gimmicky and needs Spikes or a lot of residual damage to work real effectively, but the payoff could be pretty high.

Santuga · Jan 20th, 2013, 6:49:50 PM

Chandelure @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
Modest Nature
152 HP / 252 SpAtk / 4 SpDef / 100 Spe
~Flamethrower
~Taunt
~Substitute / Will-O-Wisp
~Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp

This set makes Chandelure a three-purpose Pokemon: Spinblocker, Stallbreaker and Special Attacker. Not running a heavy speed investment might seem a bit wierd for a Chandelure, but above 80 base Speed, the only Pokemon which don't run max or close to max Speed are Gligar, Suicune, Roserade, Milotic, Togekiss, and Xatu, and this spread allows Chandelure to outspeed them all with the exception of Xatu, while putting in some extra bulk. Since it is a Ghost-type with Flash Fire ability, it can use one of the three immunities to switch in on a lot of Pokemon (Choice locked Pokemon are Chandelure's best friends) and get a free Substitute or start spreading some burns. Taunt lets it troll a lot of common Pokemon in stall teams, such as Sableye, Gligar, Bronzong, Roserade, Registeel, and Dusclops, while also beating most Stealth Rock users one on one, with the exception of Swampert, Azelf, Empoleon, and Rhyperior. Pain Split is Chandelure's main form of recovery and it pairs up well with its mid-low HP stat. Once behind a Substitute, it is pretty easy for Chandelure to cripple at least two Pokemon on the opponent's team if they don't pack a phazer, simply because it can switch up moves and go from a safe option in the form of Substitute, cripple the opponent with Will-O-Wisp or go offensive with Flamethrower. Life Orb can be used if you're running SubSplit, since it gives more power and racks up more health on the opponent.

fatty · Jan 20th, 2013, 7:25:59 PM

I'm just wondering, santuga, but what are those 100 speed EVs for? You only need 92 to outrun min speed roserade who even put 8 evs in speed, and from there the only other benchmark i'd shoot for is 128 EVs possibly to outrun bulky arcanine, taunting it and preventing it from healing up.

As for my own set, this is something that I've been using on pretty much every team that needed a spin blocker since Chandelure dropped. If I didn't need Chandy to be a scarfer, this is what I ran. I created it because I hated using Pain Split as a form of recovery, but I wanted to use Chandy's fair bulk and good typing to my advantage in the form of a bulky attacker. What enveloped was ChestoRest Chandelure, which actually disinguishes itself very well from other Chandelure sets in my opinion.

Chandelure (F) @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 240 HP / 176 SAtk / 92 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest

Basically, what this set does is provide the best "bang for your buck" when using Chandelure as a spin blocker, while also retaining it's ability to hit extremely hard with it's base 145 SpA. Instead of using Pain Split for recovery, ChestoRest gives you a one time full heal without having to rely on the opponents pokemon. This allows you to play a bit more aggressively against spinners, because one mispredict can easily be corrected by a well timed rest. Furthermore, it also has the ability to use it's good typing to switch-in on threats such as Victini, Heracross, Escavalier, Abomasnow and other Ice-types, among others, with a little bit greater peace of mind. Chesto Berry also proves useful is a couple other ways, including being able to absorb a Sleep Power from Roserade, potentially KOing it with Fire Blast, or letting the user bluff a choice item, which many people have come to expect from Chandy. Fire Blast + Shadow Ball are your STABs and will be providing your offense, keeping opponents on their toes, while WoW neuters things such as Swampert, SpD Rhyperior and most importantly, Snorlax switch-ins, preventing it from pursuiting you to death. 92 Speed outruns min speed Roserade and anything below, 176 SpA gives you a jump point, and the rest is dumped in HP, making sure it's an odd number because of SR, in order to bolster Chandelure's bulk.

Santuga · Jan 21st, 2013, 8:41:29 AM

The EV spread listed Roserade's spikes set has 16 Spe EVs, and 100 Spe on Chandelure outpaces it, that's the reasoning behind it. Arcanine doesn't need to be outpaced, since the bulky set is 100% walled by Chandelure anyway

Cesterp · Jan 21st, 2013, 8:14:24 PM

I'm going to pull something similar to what Nyara did with Scrafty, just because I really can't find anything worth doing with Chandelure. So, making a list of remotely close to viable moves-

Discarded Moves

So that leaves us with-

Viable-Ish Moves

And that's it for Chandelure's movepool, unless I forgot something. It really doesn't leave much room for creativity. The only move I can see in there that has some form of surprise factor that also resembles a moderately competitively viable option is Trick Room. I'm tempted to suggest a Will-O/Hex set, but Lure is simply nowhere near bulky enough to wall stuff. There's no priority, the set-up moves aren't fantastic (Flame Charge is possible, but a set with it has already been suggested), and the support options leave a lot to be desired. Quite frankly, I think all the good movesets that exist for Chandelure are already in use or were suggested already (once again, Flame Charge set is really good), and there's not really anywhere else for it to go. With that said, however, the only other option I can think of.

Chandelure @ Focus Sash / Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature (+SpAtk, -Spd)
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Memento
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball

Use 1: You lead with it (maybe Taunt a slower wall, Bronzong is still beaten but shouldn't be staying in). You set up Trick Room. You fire off an attack or two, you die. Bring in Trick Room sweeper #2.

Use 2: Send in the Lure against something that is locked into a resisted move (say, Close Combat or Megahorn), set up the Trick Room on the switch, hit something hard, hit it again if you have spin support and packed a sash, maybe sweep a team or pave the way for something else.

EDIT: Just so I'm not spamming up the thread. Memento makes a lot of sense, I'm not sure why I didn't think of it earlier. Updated the set with that in mind as option #1.
REEDIT: Fixed what I believe was referred to as "moveslot vomit syndrome." This isn't a winning set from what I understand, but may as well make the post as good as it can be for posterity.

fatty · Jan 21st, 2013, 8:30:34 PM

I like the use of Trick Room, Cesterp, but did you think about maybe using Memento > Taunt? Don't get me wrong, Taunt is really useful, but Chandelure is just too slow to make good use of it on the majority of UU, especially with a TR set. I think Memento provides the most upside factoring in that this would probably be used on a full TR team, allowing you to set up TR and then either attack with your strong STABs, or bring in another TR sweeper for free.

**PK Gaming** · Jan 24th, 2013, 12:09:10 PM

Quote:

Chandelure (F) @ Chesto Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 240 HP / 176 SAtk / 92 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp
- Rest

That looks like a really good set. My biggest problem with Chandelure is longevity in a match; If your opponent can SR up and keep up the pressure, then Chandelure is getting one or two meaningful attacks off, tops, maybe even less if they have a Snorlax. You can still attack with this set, in addition to spreading WoW to cripple some of your common checks (heck, even bulky water types don't like the residual damage) and healing whenever you can. I'm going to try it on an HO spikestacking team.

So yeah, throwing my support behind fatty's set.

TPO3 · Jan 24th, 2013, 1:45:41 PM

I really like fatty's Will-o-Wisp set as well. I like that it can cripple its most threatening switch-in (see: Snorlax), and that it can also allow itself to last longer in the match, and rid itself of status. I think it could be a pretty useful spinblocker, provided the opponent doesn't use something stupid like Offensive Blastoise.

fatty · Jan 24th, 2013, 6:17:37 PM

Yeah sorry, I've been inactive the last couple days. Voting is open! (even though you guys already took it upon yourselves, thanks).

Jan 16th, 2013, 1:16:25 AM	#3
cim dreams of ladybugs crushed forever Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,366 five years here and i can't change my custom title :(	I haven't used Scrafty much, but a set I tried a little that I've been meaning to test some more seems to fit this challenge really well. Scrafty's biggest problem is that it can't do much of anything to Crobat and Heracross (and to a lesser extent Gligar), who can both switch into any Scrafty set, outspeed, and KO. While this set doesn't do much to prevent revenge kills, it does make Scrafty a potent threat with no setup, which makes it harder to deal with and just might bait and kill a potential Heracross counter. Any offensive team that ends in a Heracross or Mienshao sweep could benefit from this Scrafty. Scrafty @ Choice Band Ability: Intimidate EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 20 Spe (can run up to 220 EVs to catch 0 Speed Suicune / Gligar, but HP is really nice) Nature: Adamant - Hi Jump Kick - Crunch - Ice Punch - Zen Headbutt Simple concept - use Intimidate and Scrafty's underrated bulk to come in easily and force a switch, then use Team Preview and your manly prediction skills to pick the right move. Unlike the standard Scrafty, Zen Headbutt always OHKOs Crobat and Heracross after Stealth Rock. Ice Punch gets Crobat 68% of the time and will always 2HKO Gligar and force it to Roost every turn - loses 1 on 1 in the long run to hax or a CH. HJK and Crunch are your standard issue STAB attacks - HJK is particularly useful because (1) since CB is so rare, no Ghosts would recklessly switch in, and (2) its high Base Power makes up for his rather low Attack stat. Another option for Scrafty is Substitute + Focus Punch, which gives it more ability to respond to revenge kills and a bit more damage output than standard Scrafty, but it needs a Life Orb to have a shot at one-hitting Crobat and Heracross with Zen Headbutt, and obviously you can't run 5 moves so you lose to Gligar. __________________ i was nobody we're all a little bit strange, don't worry about it

Jan 16th, 2013, 3:35:30 AM	#5
vigi Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 30	After seeing Kyurem-B tearing apart OU with it's SubRoost set, I thought maybe Scrafty could run something similar, using Rest + Shed Skin, but I couldn't manage to use it to it's full potential. It's supposed to look more or less like this: Scrafty @ Leftovers Trait: Shed Skin EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def Careful Nature - Substitute - Rest - Bulk Up - Dragon Tail __________________ RMTs: (UU) Instagram (peaked #14) (UU) The Iron Fleet (peaked #10)

Jan 16th, 2013, 5:42:20 AM	#6
Nyara Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 288 Chile > Santiago	I'm not doing or posting a set because I should test a lot a set to see if that's viable or not, so, on it's place, I'll just post an refference post to help others to make sets for this little guy. Discarded stuff and why: ... Let's see... I'll start discarding moves: Hyper Beam, Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb, Round, Snarl, Incinerate, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Snore, Hidden Power (any), Double Team, Leer, Swagger, Work Up. Yeah, I know he can Work Up and can use a special attack in that way, but that's massive outclassed by any physical move on it's repertory: Focus Punch > Giga Impact > Hyper Beam, Hi Jump Kick > Focus Blast, Poison Jab > Sludge Bomb, and stuff, even with positive nature and max inversion, it will still deal more physical damage than special with each move, and any physical wall you could want to avoid can be broken better by inverting on attack. Scrafty have Amnesia, so, it doesn't see any use to Snarl at all, but I'm not completely discarding it as it can help a partner to setup. Incinerate is an horrible move, and without special attack, it will do nothing with any Hidden Power. Double Team is banned. He can use Dragon Dance or Bulk Up on place of Leer. There are a lot better users of Swagger, and Work Up nope because it does have an a lot better physical stat and movepool. With the almost obvious discards done, now let's proceed with the more complex ones: Attacks: Giga Impact: Hi Jump Kick is always stronger, the possible recoil is better than the recharge turn. Strength: Outclassed by Return. Headbutt: Usually outclassed by Return/Rock Climb Retaliate: Usually outclassed by Hi Jump Kick. Facade: Usually outclassed by Hi Jump Kick. Faint Attack: Outclassed by Crunch. (Evasion Clause) Rock Smash: Usually outclassed by Brick Break + Dragon Dance/Bulk Up. Outrage: Usually outclassed by Hi Jump Kick. Iron Head: Usually outclassed by Rock Slide. Iron Tail: Outclassed by any Figthing Move. Support: Attract: It usually doesn't work more than the half of the time. Detect: Outclassed by Protect, and Scrafy doesn't need more PP. Scary Face: You're usually better using Rock Tomb or Low Sweep. So, it leaves us with the next list of viable moves: Prediction: Focus Punch, Low Sweep, Rock Tomb Figthing (STAB): Hi Jump Kick, Drain Punch, Brick Break, Low Kick Dark (STAB): Payback, Crunch, Foul Play Rock: Stone Edge, Rock Tomb, Head Smash, Rock Slide, Smack Down Coverage (1): Zen Headbutt, Poison Jab, Dragon Claw, Rock Climb, Return Coverage (2): Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, Fire Punch Helpers: Fake Out, Super Fang, Dual Chop, Dig, Snarl Surprise/Gimnnicky: Fling, Knock Off, Thief, Counter, Grass Knot Support: Torment, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Taunt Extra Moves: Substitute, Rest, Sleep Talk, Snatch, Protect, Spite, Sand-Attack Setup Moves: Amnesia, Bulk Up, Iron Defense, Dragon Dance Phazing: Dragon Tail, Roar More viable options are at the left, also, it's ordered in "groups" as how you could use the move, for example, we'll use Hi Jump Kick almost at the same circunstances as Drain Punch. Some synergy notes: Don't use Roar or Foul Play with Bulk Up, use Dragon Tail, then. Don't use Payback with Dragon Dance, use Crunch, then. Don't use Focus Punch without Substitute, use Hi Jump Kick, then. Don't use Low Sweep with Rock Tomb, just use one Don't use Brick Break with Drain Punch or Low Kick, just use one Don't use Roar or Dragon Tail with Dragon Dance. (May exist exceptions) Don't use Weather without abussers and synergy cores. Don't use Crunch and Payback on the same set. Don't use Foul Play on any offensive set. Usually, don't use Focus Punch/Phazing + Low Sweep/Rock Tomb Usually, don't use more than one Rock Type move on the same set. Amnesia usually comes handy with Rest, the same goes for Work Up. Rest should only be used with Intimidate activated or with Shed Skin. As notes comes, Low Sweep and Rock Tomb really helps to ease the prediction, but for make them work you need to spend a lot on speed, or you should be starting to use Dragon Dance, if all fails, it still helps to your team, anyway. Hi Jump Kick deals huge damage to anything that doesn't resist it, even without attack investment or buff, so, it should be considered on any set, but it can be forgoe or can be combined with Low Sweep or Drain Punch, depending if you're using a slow or kinda fast EV spread. Dual Chop should only used to break Substitutes or Focus Sashes, and it needs high inversion on attack, but it can comes handy as it makes Scrafty not so weak against Substitute sets. I highly recomend Fake Out on any offensive set as it can allow you to land a good number of extra K.O's, and can comes even more handy if the target is badly poisoned. Rock Slide should be considered over other Rock moves if you're using Dragon Dance, as the flinch rate and extra accuracy can comes really handy. Head Smash is great, it deals massive damage, but Scrafty have low HP, so, don't expect to use it more as final struggle against some Pokémon. As Foul Play comes, you can use a defensive EV spread and abuse of Foul Play + High Jump Kick, it deals pretty good damage, but if you're unsure if your targets will have high attack; then combine it with Amnesia, they'll don't bother to attack you with special attacks in that way. If Crobat and Heracross are on the rival's team, then play with more care, with Crobat try to spam more rock attacks or Zen Headbutts to make it think twice before switching-in, while with Heracross you can just spam Zen Headbutt to make it hard to switich-in, or use Rock Tomb to ease the prediction. Scrafty have the moves and the enough power to deal with them, but if they get a free switch while you're using a Fighthing or other coverage move, then you should run! RestTalks sets seems viable, too. Torment can help A LOT on any stalling set, but a set like that should use Leaftovers and/or have Rest. Scrafty is also a pretty reliable weather setter, it can't abuse of it, but it does have the abilities, typing, and stats to do the job well, it also gives good defensive and ofensive type coverage with Rain and Sun teams. FullBarrier Sets with Iron Defense + Amnesia + Roar can do a massive great job with stalling and racking up hazards damage, and Scrafty can overcome it's counters with the enough boosts, anyway, a set like that should have Leaftovers + Rest / Drain Punch. Super Fang is cool on any set, just be sure with the calculator of the damage output of each normal attack, as you will know better with what move make company to Super Fang, and know how to play around it. __________________ I love Caterpie, he's a so adorable little bug! ♥ (Also, sorry for my English, I'm still learning it and I'm not a native speaker). Last edited by Nyara; Jan 16th, 2013 at 7:04:22 PM.

Jan 16th, 2013, 2:26:55 PM	#9
TPO3 Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 228 the Frozen Tundra.	This is a great idea for a thread. Scrafty @Coba Berry Trait: Shed Skin Jolly Nature 16 HP/252 Atk/4 SpDef/236 Spe ~Dragon Dance ~Hi Jump Kick ~Crunch ~Ice Punch I can't come up with anything more creative, so I guess this one will have to do. Really just an item and ability change, as well as an EV tweak. Coba Berry reduces damage from Flying-type pokemon, so Scrafty can gain an extra boost or two. It also is a way to lure Crobat and Tornadus, which can make it easier for a teammate such as Heracross to sweep. Heracross would no longer need to try an predict when to use Stone Edge. The EV Spread is kinda tailor-made for the set. 252 Speed allows scrafty to outrun Tornadus by 1 point at +1, but with Coba berry, you don't need to. 236 Speed allows you to outrun base 108 and below at +1, so Cobalion and Virizion. 4 Special Defense means random stuff like Scarf Porygon-Z won't get a download boost. Max attack lets it hit as hard as it can, and the rest is dumped into HP for some bulk. Shed Skin is preferred over Moxie so you don't care as much about status. The goal of the set is to get an extra boost against Flying-types anyways, so you don't really need Moxie anyways. __________________ <TDL> thne agani if i was sobet i woudl not hav sca'd froo "If you want to make beautiful music, you must play the black and white notes together." ~Richard M. Nixon

Jan 17th, 2013, 7:37:15 PM	#12
Rohail17 Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 89 Ontario, Canada	cim's CB set is what my vote goes to The reason for this is because I have tried out all these sets, and CB was the most resourceful. When Scrafty gets sent out, people recklessly switch in their Dusclops or Cofa expecting me to set up and then proceed to burn me. Instead they get to eat a Crunch to the face and then I can pull of a clean sweep with my Heracross. __________________ Currently working on a UU Sigilyph analysis Weatherless Balance: A Daring Attempt (OU RMT) Also an Amchecker. Congratulations, you're officially done reading my signature.

Jan 15th, 2013, 11:19:03 PM	#1
fatty Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 622 MICHIGAN	The Next Best Thing... The Next Best Thing... What is this?: I for one, along with many others I'm sure, feel as though there is some untapped power within the UU environment. There is substantial evidence for this idea in the form of one commonality for most tiers, UU included: there always seems to be one or more new-fangled, hyped up sets that weren't originally main-stay or seen as "viable" by the community, but somehow has taken the metagame by storm. This can be seen in DPP OU (with Special Lucario transitioning to SD Lucario, Heatran eventually running items other than Choice Scarf, and the influx of ChestoRest Kingdra) in ADV (with the vaunted TyraniBoah now becoming almost an urban myth in comparison to Special and DD Tyranitar, and the increasing popularity of SupeRachi) and in BW OU (with the advent of SubSalac Terrakion, SubDisable Gengar, and ChestoRest Volcarona). Yes, some of these sets may have been found early on with respect to the creation of the tier or fairly recently, the point is, though, that there seems to be an endless supply of effective and potent sets out there yet to be discovered, especially factoring in metagame swings and the possible tier shifts. The purpose of this project will be to systematically subject each and every UU pokemon to a collective body of research in an attempt to uncover these "hidden gems", so to speak, and hopefully spark some creativity throughout the UU community. The Process: Each week, I will choose a different UU Pokemon, sometimes chosen by random, sometimes chosen by curiousity, of which participants will try to personally create a new set for that is not already on-site or in the process of being put on-site. Participants will be given 5 days to create their set, with discussion about the particular sets being promoted throughout, and on the 6th and 7th day of the week, a vote will be held to choose which user's set represented the most creative and simultaneously competivitely viable set to utilize in the current UU metagame. Once the votes are tallied and a winner is crowned, the set will be archived in the OP and the process will start all over again for the next pokemon specimen. What are we looking for?: Specifically, I want to stress the importance of the balance between creativity and viability when picking a set to post for the Pokemon in question. There's a very fine line between a "creative" set and a "gimmick", and this project is not meant to produce gimmicks, rather emphasize the ability to think outside the box when using a specific Pokemon in order to maximize it's potential. Having said that, I would also like to deviate from simple one move / item changes. For example, using Lum Berry over Life Orb on an SD Virizion does nothing to show any untapped potential Virizion has because we already have a basic understanding of what SD Virizion is and does, it's just now better at dealing with status and has less power. The same goes for using Iron Head over Stone Edge on SD Cobalion, it doesn't yield productive discussion or results for the project. I am looking for sets that test what we think we know about checks or counters, so-called standards, and what it means to be viable. Maybe a particular option for a Pokemon looks inferior at first glance for that particular pokemon, but dig deeper and try and find what it might mean in the big picture, for the entire team. The next test subject is... Flygon! Some things to consider: What is thought to "counter" this pokemon? Is there anyway to bypass this pokemon's so-called "counters? What moves are seldom used on this pokemon, but have the most upside? What niches can this pokemon potentially fill in the current metagame? What opposing pokemon does this pokemon do well against? How can this pokemon benefit it's teammates? Last edited by fatty; May 13th, 2013 at 12:47:32 PM.

Jan 16th, 2013, 3:21:07 AM	#4
Cassen Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 16	LO Scrafty has a lot of 2HKO potential without any boosts, and with Super Fang, many of them become OHKO's even without SR Damage. (Scrafty) @ Life Orb Trait: Intimidate EVs: 252 HP / 56 Atk / 180 Def / 20 Spd Adamant Nature - Super Fang - Drain Punch - Crunch - Ice Punch/Dragon Tail/Taunt The idea is to have Scrafty come in on either a physically based pokemon that fears its stabs (Weavile, Ambipom, Krookodile, Sharpedo, ect.) or any poke that fears its stabs and can't hit back (Ghost-Types without HP Fighting, Umbreon). Because of Intimidate, Scrafty typically forces the opponent to switch into one of its usual checks or counters - that's where Super Fang comes in. Anything coming in will be at 50% health or below assuming hazards are up, allowing Scrafty to either stay in for a OHKO, or to leave and allow one of its proper team mates to come in and deal with the weakened pokemon. In either case, having a pokemon lose 50% of its health upon switching makes that pokemon much easier to handle for either Scrafty or a team mate. It can, in some cases, force another switch if the opponent doesn't want to risk losing a pokemon - this makes hazard support a nice pair with this Scrafty. Super Fang does not incur recoil damage from LO, making it a safe spam-able move on anything looking to check/counter Scrafty, as well as allowing you to not reveal what Scrafty's held item is. The only thing immune to Super Fang are ghost types, and those are all dealt with nicely thanks to Crunch. The given bulk along with Intimidate allows a 100% healthy Scrafty to never be 2HKO's by Scarf Victini's V Create and CB Flygon's Outrage even after SR Damage upon switching into the first hit (Allowing it to switch in with intimidate and counter with Crunch/Ice Punch Respectively, though Scrafty will die if he connects a hit with either of them due to LO recoil). It can also live a Brave Bird from Stallbreaker Crobat and retaliate with an Ice Punch, even without Intimidate. Speed EV's allow it to outspeed uninvested base 60 speed poke's and below - the notable ones include Swampert, Empoleon, Porygon2 - allowing it to win 1-on-1 thanks to Super Fang and Drain Punch. The Speed EV's also makes Taunt and Dragon Tail somewhat viable moves, since Swamperts and Empoleons that pack phasing moves can be possible answers the opponent might throw at you to counter Scrafty due to most folks most assuming Scrafty is packing a set-up move. With Taunt, Scrafty is also able to Anti-lead certain Physically based pokes that are slower than it; notable ones include Rhyperior, Registeel, and Bronzong (again, Scrafty can beat them all 1-on-1 thanks to Super Fang and Drain Punch). Ice Punch however is the preferred move, since it gives Scrafty a way to deal Flygon, Gligar, and Crobat.

Jan 16th, 2013, 7:20:56 AM	#7
Metal Sonic Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 316	A very good sweeper set. It is very creative, and powerful. Scrafty @ Salac Berry Trait: Moxie EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def Jolly Nature - Substitute - Dragon Dance - Crunch - Drain Punch This set is pioneered by myself and also was deemed 'unviable' by others, I personally think it is powerful especially with Moxie Abuse and the Salac Berry pinch speed boost. Crunch + Drain Punch gives almost unresisted coverage except for Heracross/Toxicroak. Therefore these pokemon should be taken out first(they're counters to all scrafty, anyway) The Salac Berry is there to give that pinch speed boost, especially when Scrafty is so slow. Others may argue that it is redundant with Dragon Dance, but when you consider that +2 Scrafty is still outsped by majority of Scarf users, A +3 speed boosted by Salac is perfectly reasonable. Especially when you're in a pinch, you can spam substitiute and then get the speed boost, then OHKO the now-slower opponent. Substitute is used to facilitate the salac berry, and take advantage of switches. IF a speedier opponent switches in, Substutute will come in more handy than a Dragon Dance will. Subspam till activating Salac Berry, then DDance and sweep. Drain Punch is also useful for recovering HP which is lost by subbing. Because Substitute is there to absorb status as well, Shed Skin is not needed. Put moxie instead. With Every Kill, you get more powerful. With +3 Speed, you will never be outsped by any opponent. At +3 speed and with a few boosts, its GG. So: 1.Sub on switches/Status moves, 2a) If a scarfed revenger threat comes in, Spam Substitute until Salac activates. Then Dragon Dance and Kill. 2b) If a revenger comes in but you are sure it cannot OHKO, you can decide to spam Dragon Dance instead. Kill. 3)Acquire Moxie Boosts. 4)GG This set has been tried and tested in multiple(a lot) UU battles, and practical tests and probing has proven it to actually work. __________________

Jan 16th, 2013, 12:40:04 PM	#8
fatty Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 622 MICHIGAN	Nice sets guys, keep them coming! Thanks nyara for that mini-guide for scrafty, it looks pretty helpful in sort of setting guidelines of what is potentially viable and what is not. I've used CB Scrafty for a bit after flareblitz posted about it and it is indeed actually very effective seeing that CB HJK hits like a truck. I'm also intrigued by that subsalac set, metal sonic, as it seems to be a creative way to bypass scrafty's annoying speed problem and make good use of moxie, and coupling it with dragon dance is very unique for a subsalac sweeper.

Jan 17th, 2013, 6:41:37 PM	#11
fatty Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 622 MICHIGAN	There's been a slight change of plans. Due to the fact that this project focuses all of it's power on a single Pokemon, a whole week left to dissect it's viable sets seems to be a bit too long. Because of this, I will be shortening the time period for posting sets from now on to about 2-3 days. This will help speed up the process and hopefully prevent downtime that leads to inactivity. With that said, it's seems as though we already have a fair amount of solid choices to choose from, so I will be starting the voting period... now! Thanks for all the sets and input from everyone so far, and let the best set win! As for voting, if voters could just post the user's name who posted the most viable and/or intriguing set in bold*, followed by a short, intelligent reasoning for as to why you chose this set, it would be much appreciated.

Jan 17th, 2013, 7:40:29 PM	#13
TPO3 Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 228 the Frozen Tundra.	I like cim's CB Scrafty set. Despite the fact that Scrafty doesn't hit as hard as Heracross or Mienshao, I think the explanation that CIM gives makes it a viable CB user. +1 HJK is going to hit pretty hard anyways. On top of this, Scrafty has great bulk, a couple resistances, and Intimidate, which will allow it to switch in more than once. It can also nab a few of its usual counters, in Zapdos, Crobat, and Heracross, which could potentially turn the tide in your favor. __________________ <TDL> thne agani if i was sobet i woudl not hav sca'd froo "If you want to make beautiful music, you must play the black and white notes together." ~Richard M. Nixon

Jan 17th, 2013, 7:44:06 PM	#14
Nyara Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 288 Chile > Santiago	I vote for the cim's set. Not to much to say, it may look like the more simplest set ever, but it actually works to bypass it's counters and allows Scrafty to punch things hard and take good use of it's bulk with Intimidate and type, it's really simple, yet effective, it really hits like a truck while helping it's team. Oh, yeah, I could rather change Crunch for Payback as Scrafty will rarely outspeed something weak or neutral to Crunch, and it needs all the power that it can get, but it's still the best set. From there, those will be only comments of the other sets to improve them. ... About the other sets, Cassen's Super Fang Scrafty works pretty well, too, as it take a fantastic good use of it's good bulk and makes a wonderful synergy of offensive power + defensive power with Life Orb + Super Fang, but I could rather suggest the inclusion of Zen Headbutt on place of Ice Fang; you change Flygon for hit Crobat and Heracross's switch's-in harder, and having a best answer against stall teams with Poison Pokémon. I could voted for you, but the set is kinda weak to Spikes and Toxic Spikes as you'll have to switch-out too offen, and while Scrafty's bulky is pretty good, it will not endure enough with the recoil of Life Orb, or forgoing Leaftovers or Rest + Cleric Support. It does need more support, and the Choice Banded of cim doesn't need support at all and do the job almost as well as this, but it can comes handy on stall teams with Rapid Spinners. Best part: Easing prediction on a slow guy is really, really great. Oh, yeah, also, change Crunch for Payback, he will not outspeed anything important that may see Crunch a better option as most of the ghost, psychic guys and stuff are actually fasters. I don't really like the other sets; Scrafty is too slow to put a Substitute set + Pinch Berry well as it's prone to Taunt, phazers, walls, Toxic Spikes, and stuff. TP03's sets is the best aproach to the concept, as it can bypass some of it's counters and use them as setup baits; a really wonderful idea, but again, Scrafty's bulky without HP investment or Intimidate is nothing good at all, so it may be hard for that Scrafty to find a time to set up and sweep on the game, and even if he gets the power, it's still prone to being revenge killed before of time, it can act as a good cleanner, but there're best cleanners that doesn't tend to fail at the job, while Scrafty can fail at doing it. Metal Sonic's set; the Salac Berry one have a huge potential as sweeper, but it does fail to the classic problems of Pinch Berries sets on slow guys, it's prone to revenge killer, and it can't do nothing against it's counters. High-risk, but high-reward, good, but not what I'm finding, and worst when it does need team support. __________________ I love Caterpie, he's a so adorable little bug! ♥ (Also, sorry for my English, I'm still learning it and I'm not a native speaker). Last edited by Nyara; Jan 17th, 2013 at 7:59:11 PM.

Jan 17th, 2013, 7:55:34 PM	#15
Warb Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 63	My vote goes to cim's CB Scrafty. The way I see it, Scrafty is one of the most prominent Crobat baits in the UU metagame. Being a versed Crobat user myself, I can guarantee that whenever Scrafty comes in, a Crobat switch-in will follow right after. The reason is simple: Neither DD nor Bulk Up Scrafty is able to beat Crobat 1on1. DD is outsped and OHKOed even after +1 speed, while BulkUp gets 2HKOed while not being able to deal enough damage in return due to the lack of attack investment. Banded Scrafty perfectly abuses this common knowledge (I guess this kind of knowledge is not that common on the ladder, but experienced UU players all know important facts like these) and punishes the Crobat switch-in with a straight OHKO after rocks. Now suddenly, the opponent's most important check to Roserade, Shaymin, Specs Yanmega, Heracross, Mienshao, Virizion, Machamp, Hitmontop and to a certain extent Umbreon is gone. Also, seeing as most people (myself included) use only ONE real Fighting check on their teams, it will be often the case where Crobat fulfills that particular role (I have honestly never seen Crobat and Gligar on the same team, I didn't look it up in the December stats though, so I might be wrong on that). With Crobat eliminated fairly early in the game, suddenly Heracross and friends can safely spam that STAB move with one less worry (because Psychics and Ghosts are also handled by Scrafty just fine, GOD if Scrafty just had access to Pursuit, it would be so damn good!). TPO3's Coba Berry DD set is also a very nice idea, able to get to +2 Speed in the face of Crobat and then proceed to threaten everything on the opposing team. BUT, +2 speed will still fail to outspeed positive natured Base 95 Pokémon with a Choice Scarf, which will ultimately hinder this set's sweeping potential (given that Scrafty took one Brave Bird already with the Coba Berry, there will be only around 50% HP left which won't be enough to tank an incoming scarfer's hit). Lastly, with all due respect, I don't see the point of SubSalac Scrafty at all. There is simply no way that particular Scrafty set is gonna do anything to Crobat at all. Scrafty will either get up one DD or a Sub on the Crobat switch-in. In the former case, Crobat will just kill Scrafty off as it does with every other DD Scrafty. In the latter case, it will just taunt you to prevent you from Subbing down to your Salac Berry, after which it can just get rid of your sub, roost up once or twice (Crunch does 34-40% to standard Crobat, factoring in SR and Black Sludge, Scrafty can't 2HKO barring crits and 2 high damage rolls) and proceed to kill Scrafty afterwards. tl;dr = cim's CB Scrafty wins for me, because it strays from the usual sweeping strategy in favor of a more focused niche stragety of eliminating common Fighting checks to ease the sweep of another Fighting type for later. (btw, I didn't mention Gligar simply because Gligar can be checked by a variety of other Pokémon, while Crobat can be a potent threat on its own being arguably the best offensive pivot in the entire tier) edit: I took too long on replying, got ninja'd by a bunch of people :x

Jan 19th, 2013, 3:33:29 PM	#16
fatty Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 622 MICHIGAN	As much as I like the other sets posted here, I too will have to go with cim. I've actually used CB Scrafty extensively in conjunction with SD Cobalion (they're some of my two favorite fighters because they actually bring defensive synergy to a team) and it works beautifully. In fact, it's actually one of my favorite pokemon to lead with due to the good matchups it has against a lot of hazard layers, acting like a DPP Machamp. It's even more impressive during the midgame, though, 2HKOing the majority of the tier with the respective coverage move. Intimidate is just the cherry on top, allowing it switch in on a surprising amount of threats and acting as a psuedo revenge killer. I'll be keeping voting open for a little while longer, but after that I will crown the winner and move on to the next UU specimen. Edit: Alright then, it's unanimous, cim's CB Scrafty is the winner. Thanks for all the other good Scrafty sets posted, but cim's set proved to exemplify the greatest amount of creativity and viability, showing us yet again there's great sets out there begging to be discovered. CB Scrafty will be archived in the second post, and with that, let's move on to Mon #2. Per RT.'s humble request, this period we will be focusing our attention on the ominous light fixture of death, Chandelure! Same rules apply, go at it! Last edited by fatty; Jan 20th, 2013 at 1:14:29 PM.

Jan 20th, 2013, 5:20:30 PM	#17
TPO3 Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 228 the Frozen Tundra.	Chandelure @Life Orb Trait: Flame Body Modest Nature 16 HP/252 SpAtk/4 SpDef/236 Spe ~Flame Charge ~Fire Blast ~Shadow Ball ~Hidden Power Fighting/Energy Ball The idea with this set would be to get the speed of a Scarf Chandelure, but still maintain all the power you want out of something with base 145 Special Attack. The 236 Speed EVs allow you to always get passed Weavile when you are at +1. You can run max speed if you want, but you don't get passed much more. Just the random Modest Scarf Rotom-H or Modest Scarf Porygon-Z. Flame Body so you don't get ruined by Trace Porygon2/Porygon-Z. I suppose its also worth mentioning that with Ghost typing, you're immune to Mach Punch, Extremespeed, and Quick Attack (lol.) Weak to Sucker Punch but that's the price you pay, I guess. This set is really gimmicky and needs Spikes or a lot of residual damage to work real effectively, but the payoff could be pretty high. __________________ <TDL> thne agani if i was sobet i woudl not hav sca'd froo "If you want to make beautiful music, you must play the black and white notes together." ~Richard M. Nixon

Jan 20th, 2013, 6:49:50 PM	#18
Santuga Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 322	Chandelure @ Leftovers Trait: Flash Fire Modest Nature 152 HP / 252 SpAtk / 4 SpDef / 100 Spe ~Flamethrower ~Taunt ~Substitute / Will-O-Wisp ~Pain Split / Will-O-Wisp This set makes Chandelure a three-purpose Pokemon: Spinblocker, Stallbreaker and Special Attacker. Not running a heavy speed investment might seem a bit wierd for a Chandelure, but above 80 base Speed, the only Pokemon which don't run max or close to max Speed are Gligar, Suicune, Roserade, Milotic, Togekiss, and Xatu, and this spread allows Chandelure to outspeed them all with the exception of Xatu, while putting in some extra bulk. Since it is a Ghost-type with Flash Fire ability, it can use one of the three immunities to switch in on a lot of Pokemon (Choice locked Pokemon are Chandelure's best friends) and get a free Substitute or start spreading some burns. Taunt lets it troll a lot of common Pokemon in stall teams, such as Sableye, Gligar, Bronzong, Roserade, Registeel, and Dusclops, while also beating most Stealth Rock users one on one, with the exception of Swampert, Azelf, Empoleon, and Rhyperior. Pain Split is Chandelure's main form of recovery and it pairs up well with its mid-low HP stat. Once behind a Substitute, it is pretty easy for Chandelure to cripple at least two Pokemon on the opponent's team if they don't pack a phazer, simply because it can switch up moves and go from a safe option in the form of Substitute, cripple the opponent with Will-O-Wisp or go offensive with Flamethrower. Life Orb can be used if you're running SubSplit, since it gives more power and racks up more health on the opponent.

Jan 20th, 2013, 7:25:59 PM	#19
fatty Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 622 MICHIGAN	I'm just wondering, santuga, but what are those 100 speed EVs for? You only need 92 to outrun min speed roserade who even put 8 evs in speed, and from there the only other benchmark i'd shoot for is 128 EVs possibly to outrun bulky arcanine, taunting it and preventing it from healing up. As for my own set, this is something that I've been using on pretty much every team that needed a spin blocker since Chandelure dropped. If I didn't need Chandy to be a scarfer, this is what I ran. I created it because I hated using Pain Split as a form of recovery, but I wanted to use Chandy's fair bulk and good typing to my advantage in the form of a bulky attacker. What enveloped was ChestoRest Chandelure, which actually disinguishes itself very well from other Chandelure sets in my opinion. Chandelure (F) @ Chesto Berry Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 240 HP / 176 SAtk / 92 Spd Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk) - Fire Blast - Shadow Ball - Will-O-Wisp - Rest Basically, what this set does is provide the best "bang for your buck" when using Chandelure as a spin blocker, while also retaining it's ability to hit extremely hard with it's base 145 SpA. Instead of using Pain Split for recovery, ChestoRest gives you a one time full heal without having to rely on the opponents pokemon. This allows you to play a bit more aggressively against spinners, because one mispredict can easily be corrected by a well timed rest. Furthermore, it also has the ability to use it's good typing to switch-in on threats such as Victini, Heracross, Escavalier, Abomasnow and other Ice-types, among others, with a little bit greater peace of mind. Chesto Berry also proves useful is a couple other ways, including being able to absorb a Sleep Power from Roserade, potentially KOing it with Fire Blast, or letting the user bluff a choice item, which many people have come to expect from Chandy. Fire Blast + Shadow Ball are your STABs and will be providing your offense, keeping opponents on their toes, while WoW neuters things such as Swampert, SpD Rhyperior and most importantly, Snorlax switch-ins, preventing it from pursuiting you to death. 92 Speed outruns min speed Roserade and anything below, 176 SpA gives you a jump point, and the rest is dumped in HP, making sure it's an odd number because of SR, in order to bolster Chandelure's bulk.

Jan 21st, 2013, 8:41:29 AM	#20
Santuga Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 322	The EV spread listed Roserade's spikes set has 16 Spe EVs, and 100 Spe on Chandelure outpaces it, that's the reasoning behind it. Arcanine doesn't need to be outpaced, since the bulky set is 100% walled by Chandelure anyway

Jan 21st, 2013, 8:14:24 PM	#21
Cesterp Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 65 East Coast USA	I'm going to pull something similar to what Nyara did with Scrafty, just because I really can't find anything worth doing with Chandelure. So, making a list of remotely close to viable moves- Discarded Moves Clearly not an option- Thief, Telekinesis, Minimize, Psych Up, Snore, Smog, Round, Incinerate, Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Flash, Fire Spin, Ember, Dream Eater, Double Team, Captivate, Attract, Astonish, Acid, Return, Frustration, Payback, and Facade. Because you will be laughed at and called a moron if any of these show up. Moves that might need some form of explanation as to why not- Imprison- Way too unreliable, will almost never do anything. Night Shade- You have base 145 SpAtk. Seriously. Curse- Would actually be kind of interesting on a setup set. Except you're a Ghost type. Spite- Chandelure simply is nowhere near bulky enough for PP stall. Obscure/Outclassed/Not good choices- Inferno- Unless you're using Gravity, it's too unreliable. Embargo- Pretty awesome when paired with Flame Body vs. P2, pretty useless otherwise. Plus, Trick exists. SolarBeam- Unless you have a sun team. Flame Burst- Flamethrower exists if you want accuracy. Swagger- Confuse Ray is uh... better. So that leaves us with- Viable-Ish Moves Team Support Moves- Trick Room Sunny Day Safeguard Memento Self-Support/Status/Walling Moves- Will-O-Wisp Toxic Haze Clear Smog Taunt Confuse Ray Protect Trick Recovery- Rest Sleep Talk Pain Split Set-Up Moves- Calm Mind Acid Armor Substitute Flame Charge Attacking Moves- Overheat Fire Blast Heat Wave Flamethrower Hex Shadow Ball Energy Ball Psychic Dark Pulse Hidden Power (fighting, usually) SolarBeam/Inferno (only with super heavy team support) And that's it for Chandelure's movepool, unless I forgot something. It really doesn't leave much room for creativity. The only move I can see in there that has some form of surprise factor that also resembles a moderately competitively viable option is Trick Room. I'm tempted to suggest a Will-O/Hex set, but Lure is simply nowhere near bulky enough to wall stuff. There's no priority, the set-up moves aren't fantastic (Flame Charge is possible, but a set with it has already been suggested), and the support options leave a lot to be desired. Quite frankly, I think all the good movesets that exist for Chandelure are already in use or were suggested already (once again, Flame Charge set is really good), and there's not really anywhere else for it to go. With that said, however, the only other option I can think of. Chandelure @ Focus Sash / Leftovers Trait: Flame Body EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef Quiet Nature (+SpAtk, -Spd) IVs: 0 Spd - Trick Room - Memento - Flamethrower / Fire Blast - Shadow Ball Use 1: You lead with it (maybe Taunt a slower wall, Bronzong is still beaten but shouldn't be staying in). You set up Trick Room. You fire off an attack or two, you die. Bring in Trick Room sweeper #2. Use 2: Send in the Lure against something that is locked into a resisted move (say, Close Combat or Megahorn), set up the Trick Room on the switch, hit something hard, hit it again if you have spin support and packed a sash, maybe sweep a team or pave the way for something else. EDIT: Just so I'm not spamming up the thread. Memento makes a lot of sense, I'm not sure why I didn't think of it earlier. Updated the set with that in mind as option #1. REEDIT: Fixed what I believe was referred to as "moveslot vomit syndrome." This isn't a winning set from what I understand, but may as well make the post as good as it can be for posterity. Last edited by Cesterp; Jan 25th, 2013 at 11:41:58 PM.

Jan 21st, 2013, 8:30:34 PM	#22
fatty Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 622 MICHIGAN	I like the use of Trick Room, Cesterp, but did you think about maybe using Memento > Taunt? Don't get me wrong, Taunt is really useful, but Chandelure is just too slow to make good use of it on the majority of UU, especially with a TR set. I think Memento provides the most upside factoring in that this would probably be used on a full TR team, allowing you to set up TR and then either attack with your strong STABs, or bring in another TR sweeper for free.

Jan 24th, 2013, 1:45:41 PM	#24
TPO3 Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 228 the Frozen Tundra.	I really like fatty's Will-o-Wisp set as well. I like that it can cripple its most threatening switch-in (see: Snorlax), and that it can also allow itself to last longer in the match, and rid itself of status. I think it could be a pretty useful spinblocker, provided the opponent doesn't use something stupid like Offensive Blastoise. __________________ <TDL> thne agani if i was sobet i woudl not hav sca'd froo "If you want to make beautiful music, you must play the black and white notes together." ~Richard M. Nixon

Jan 24th, 2013, 6:17:37 PM	#25
fatty Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 622 MICHIGAN	Yeah sorry, I've been inactive the last couple days. Voting is open! (even though you guys already took it upon yourselves, thanks).