np: BW Ubers Suspect Round 2 - U Can't Touch This (UPDATE: EVASION UNBANNED!) - Page 6

Sol64 · Dec 22nd, 2012, 12:28:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Bent1ey

Drifblim and Minimize/Baton Pass sound like a pretty powerful combination. I hadn't noticed that Minimize got boosted until now, I'm definitively running more evasion in my doubles teams now.

Also, the idea of Qwilfish using Minimize to lay a ridiculous amount of Spikes is pretty funny.

Risky as hell though.

**Tobes** · Dec 22nd, 2012, 12:59:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat IbanezObsession

This really is going to suck the life out of the Ubers meta...Considering it's one of the only balanced right now, unbanning something as uncompetitive as this just makes me shake my head. I'd like to know why anyone would want that unbanned.

Because, to put it simply, "you don't ban unbroken stuff and you don't leave unbroken stuff banned." If you had concerns about what Evasion would do to Ubers, you should've laddered your way to reqs--not only to be able to act on your concern, but to be able to see for yourself if you were right. The fact is that the majority of the people who qualified saw Evasion so infrequently (and when they did see it it was usually ineffective) that they felt it was such a non-factor in Ubers that it didn't need to be banned. After all, if it was broken and likely to give wins, people would use it, right? Hell, I'd say Skymin is more dangerous than Evasion, and probably saw more usage. Overall I expect Evasion being unbanned to have barely any noticable effect on Ubers. It'll likely just be business as usual, i.e. what people call balanced. "Suck the life out of" is just incredible hyperbole and I'd prefer not to see it again in this thread.

This isn't the end of the world anyway. If Evasion ever becomes a serious problem we can just reban it.

CDB-Man · Dec 22nd, 2012, 6:45:28 PM

This metagame change will be reflected here, right?

http://www.smogon.com/bw/banlist/

Melee Mewtwo · Dec 23rd, 2012, 2:40:52 PM

I like seeing Evasion Clause removed. If anything, it breathes more life into full Baton Pass teams. Ubers really has a massive variability of viable team archetypes, I'm happy to see that extended.

**Theorymon** · Dec 29th, 2012, 4:37:50 PM

Alright just an update. So we decided to delay the next test (Moody) till after SPL ends, so everyone can practice without having to worry about the fact that the next 3 tests are the most taboo things possible: Moody, Sleep Clause, and Species Clause! In the mean time though, we'll think of something interesting for you guys to do...

Hack He Must · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:14:32 PM

Could there possibly be a separate ladder for Species and Sleep Clause perhaps? I know there aren't many people playing, so I understand that it will probably not be that way, but it will be a shame if you can't play "regular" ubers for that period of time.

Aquasition · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:55:27 PM

Moody: May cause smeargle to rise in popularity. That 75 Speed might be a downside though.
Sleep Clause: Everyone and their friends are likely to use Darkrai. I remember seeing youtubes of PBR and the rage that ensues when Darkrai is used
Species clause: OH BLEEP OH BLEEP OH BLEEP 6 KYOGRES/ARCEUI!!!

This is what I'm expecting to happen as we try this.

.Robert · Dec 29th, 2012, 8:21:27 PM

Species Clause: 6 Arceus lgi

Hugin · Dec 29th, 2012, 8:58:31 PM

Specs Ogre, Scarf Ogre, Arceus-Elec, ExtremeKiller, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Dragon. Watch people rage.

Sleep will be interesting. I doubt it will get unbanned, but there will be some interesting sets while it lasts.

~~blitzlefan~~ · Dec 29th, 2012, 9:58:32 PM

Species clause will stay intact for sure IMO. Why use anything not named Arceus/Kyogre when there's a Arceus and a XYZ Plate just begging for you to use it? With Species clause out of play, I think there'll be dramatic centralization around Arceus and without sleep clause, Darkrai. Probs just stating the obvious tho. :P

Hugin · Dec 30th, 2012, 12:36:45 AM

Smeargle, too. Baton Pass, Shell Smash, Spore, just got a lot more viable.

Hack He Must · Dec 30th, 2012, 6:00:46 AM

Quote:

Smeargle, too. Baton Pass, Shell Smash, Spore, just got a lot more viable.

I don't think this is true because Smeargles job is to pass once, courtesy of its sash. When it has passed, it's good game so I can't see the point of this being more viable because you can sleep multiple opponents. I understand that if you spore first it could go on and spore the switch in as well, and then sleep the entire team before passing, but it's really just as good to smash first, survive with the sash and sleep the switch in, and then pass.

Problems · Dec 30th, 2012, 1:16:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Theorymon

Alright just an update. So we decided to delay the next test (Moody) till after SPL ends, so everyone can practice without having to worry about the fact that the next 3 tests are the most taboo things possible: Moody, Sleep Clause, and Species Clause! In the mean time though, we'll think of something interesting for you guys to do...

I can't tell if this is a serious post or a joke, you're just going to brake the tier and the players will leave for PO.

You can't tell me this will have a positive effect on the tier?

JirachiCelebiMew · Dec 30th, 2012, 3:16:55 PM

I don't play Ubers much, but I think there is one threat that is getting ignored here for the Moody Clause: Bibarel. Sure, the beaver's strongest stat is 85 attack, which is even pathetic in NU, but it can stall effectively with this moveset:

Bibarel @ Leftovers
Trait: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Dive
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Protect

After some Evasion boosts, you will be stalled to death by the combo of Toxic + ResTalk. Dive just makes you stall more, and you have a chance to get an Evasion boost. I'm not sure if he gets Baton Pass, though. One thing, though: He's fucked by Thunder, which is everywhere...

Hugin · Dec 30th, 2012, 6:50:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Problems

I can't tell if this is a serious post or a joke, you're just going to brake the tier and the players will leave for PO.

You can't tell me this will have a positive effect on the tier?

It's been announced for a while that those are up next. Every clause is getting tested. Now, no one thinks they'll be unbanned, but testing is how you decide what's broken and what isn't. Sleep at least has a chance, though a small one, since there's counters for it. After OHKO I don't hold out much hope, but if people start running more RestTalk and even Choiced Sleep Talk+3 Attacks, sleep might be able to be handled.

AJC · Jan 1st, 2013, 12:13:31 AM

sleep talk is terrible idea in a game were the mechanics for it means if you don't get what you need when you use it your forced out (because you are gonna die and/or give your foe free set up) and still have to sleep for how many turns you have to sleep because of the sleep mechanics change.

there's a reason why sleep talk is pretty much unseen in gen 5 because unless you get what you need when you use it it will just be ineffective or worse a free turn.

Hugin · Jan 1st, 2013, 1:37:23 AM

But Sleep Talk does show up occasionally. I'm thinking various Choiced mons which only need 3 attacks. Stick Sleep Talk on the 4th slot, you can switch it into Darkrai and spam until you kill.

ChuckHades · Jan 3rd, 2013, 2:02:27 PM

Species clause may not be so bad to play on the ladder, simply because of the amount of gimmick teams; I'm sure as shit that teams with 6 Charizard are gonna be more common than well thought out teams with versatile pokemon used effectively.

Also, maybe I'm just being naive, but am I the only one that thinks 6 Arceus teams won't be that bad? For me at least, I use Arceus to complete a team, rather than build a team around it. That's why it's so good; Arceus can fulfill every role in the game quite well, none of them perfectly, but well. But this means Arceus is a very situational pokemon: There's no reason to use, say, Arceus Psychic over Mewtwo unless your specific teambuild necessitates it.

Want a great wallbreaker? Why use Arceus Dragon over White Kyurem?
Want a sturdy special wall? Why use any Arceus over Chansey, Bllissey, Jirachi, hell even sp.def Meloetta is passable in ubers (passable, not great).
Want a great revenge killer? Why use Extreme Killer (Which is not a good revenge killer, I might add) or Scarf Arceus (lol) over scarf Kyogre, or scarf Terrakion, or scarf <insert good scarfer here>?

My point is that bar a very select few (EK, Ghostceus, Rockceus in sand, MAYBE Grassceus & Steelceus), the job that a given Arceus would do on a team full of Arceus would be done better by something else; Arceus is a niche pokemon, NOT something you build around.

Moody's only hindrance is going to be that the pokemon that get it are shit; otherwise that's probably broken, or too centralising. I don't want to have to run Ditto, who only works in negative 5% of matches in Ubers, in order to stop Bidoof sweeping me.

Sleep I'm undecided on. Obviously the only reason people are freaking out is because of Darkrai being a goddamn menace (125 speed with moderately accurate sleep move, 135 sp.atk and set up move? nothx). But it's not that difficult to deal with on paper. Darkrai basically dies to a light breeze, so anything faster than it and its not a problem. And yea, sleep talk + 3 good moves is also a decent idea. And of course there's insomnia Delibird ;)

All 3 look very interesting to test though, and while I'm pretty sure they'll all remain banned, I can't wait to try out some original teams.

JirachiCelebiMew · Jan 4th, 2013, 6:43:48 PM

For Sleep Clause, I'd run Choice Scarf Darkrai, and spam Dark Void. It doesn't miss that often, and put the whole opponent's team to sleep.

~~blitzlefan~~ · Jan 4th, 2013, 8:21:54 PM

to counter Darkrai, there would be Sleep Talk/Chesto Berry/Lum Berry... but I don't want to have to run that on every poke that I want to use... also, typical scarfers (eg Kyogre, Palkia, anything under 125 Spe) would lose to a faster sleep. that would sux

Hugin · Jan 5th, 2013, 1:22:56 AM

Bad Dreams takes 8 turns to kill. Figure, conservatively, you'll wake up twice. Is there an Ubers poke that can't 2hko Darkrai? Darkrai will be good with no Sleep clause, but Scarf won't be viable.

I'm currently thinking LO with Void/Pulse/Substitute/Dream Eater.

ntiller · Jan 18th, 2013, 9:20:43 PM

When we test sleep clause I predict Scarf Primeape becoming an actual player in Ubers. Even when they don't have a Darkrai, it can still act as a worse Genesect with STAB Close Combat. Also, I bet Smeargle ends up being really good while testing sleep clause. Minimize + Spore + Shell Smash + Baton Pass is looking better and better. Add Moody in there and you have another metagame-defining Pokemon (the others being Extreme Killer, Kyogre, and to a lesser extent Groudon).

Nyara · Jan 19th, 2013, 12:01:31 AM

Let's see:

Moody: It should be unbanned, Smeargle may see some more uses, but it will not change anything else.
Sleep: Darkrai will see more uses, but let's think: Sleep just last 3 turns on avarage, and half ubers tier can OHKO it back, and the other half can 2HKO it, just don't switch out and keep attacking until it's out from game. Parasect's niche will love it, but you know, Parasect is not the fearest Pokémon there. Breloom and Quiver Dance Venomoth + Baton Pass may be seen, but nothing incredible, anyway.
Species: 5 Kyogres, 1 counter to it's counters. Maybe 4 Kyogres, 1 Kyogre-Counters, and 1 Arceus to being more versatile.

ntiller · Mar 8th, 2013, 4:33:34 PM

When will the next round of clause testing start? Also, what will be the next clause tested?

**Furai** · Mar 8th, 2013, 6:11:23 PM

Next round will start right after SPL finals, and we will be investigating Moody Clause.

Dec 22nd, 2012, 6:45:28 PM	#128
CDB-Man Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 17 My IP never stops changing.	This metagame change will be reflected here, right? http://www.smogon.com/bw/banlist/ __________________ Friend Codes: Heart Gold: 2021 2751 0090

Dec 29th, 2012, 6:55:27 PM	#132
Aquasition Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 60 Scarborough, ON, CA	Moody: May cause smeargle to rise in popularity. That 75 Speed might be a downside though. Sleep Clause: Everyone and their friends are likely to use Darkrai. I remember seeing youtubes of PBR and the rage that ensues when Darkrai is used Species clause: OH BLEEP OH BLEEP OH BLEEP 6 KYOGRES/ARCEUI!!! This is what I'm expecting to happen as we try this. __________________ Hello, We wood like to visit for a midnight znack. How does ice cream and brains zound? Sincerely, The Zombies

Dec 30th, 2012, 3:16:55 PM	#139
JirachiCelebiMew Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 257 The Great Big Sea (Montreal)	I don't play Ubers much, but I think there is one threat that is getting ignored here for the Moody Clause: Bibarel. Sure, the beaver's strongest stat is 85 attack, which is even pathetic in NU, but it can stall effectively with this moveset: Bibarel @ Leftovers Trait: Moody EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def Careful Nature - Toxic - Dive - Rest - Sleep Talk / Protect After some Evasion boosts, you will be stalled to death by the combo of Toxic + ResTalk. Dive just makes you stall more, and you have a chance to get an Evasion boost. I'm not sure if he gets Baton Pass, though. One thing, though: He's fucked by Thunder, which is everywhere... __________________ Shedinja sez: ''Enigma Berry sucks.''

Jan 1st, 2013, 12:13:31 AM	#141
AJC Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,183	sleep talk is terrible idea in a game were the mechanics for it means if you don't get what you need when you use it your forced out (because you are gonna die and/or give your foe free set up) and still have to sleep for how many turns you have to sleep because of the sleep mechanics change. there's a reason why sleep talk is pretty much unseen in gen 5 because unless you get what you need when you use it it will just be ineffective or worse a free turn. __________________ <Misty> NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH CHOICE BAND JIRACHI INQUISITION. <Surgo> when a man whips out a pink DS and pokemon, you know he's not afraid of anything. <capefeather> explosion got ruined by the bad economy

Jan 4th, 2013, 6:43:48 PM	#144
JirachiCelebiMew Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 257 The Great Big Sea (Montreal)	For Sleep Clause, I'd run Choice Scarf Darkrai, and spam Dark Void. It doesn't miss that often, and put the whole opponent's team to sleep. __________________ Shedinja sez: ''Enigma Berry sucks.''

Dec 23rd, 2012, 2:40:52 PM	#129
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 682 France	I like seeing Evasion Clause removed. If anything, it breathes more life into full Baton Pass teams. Ubers really has a massive variability of viable team archetypes, I'm happy to see that extended.

Dec 29th, 2012, 6:14:32 PM	#131
Hack He Must Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 141	Could there possibly be a separate ladder for Species and Sleep Clause perhaps? I know there aren't many people playing, so I understand that it will probably not be that way, but it will be a shame if you can't play "regular" ubers for that period of time.

Dec 29th, 2012, 8:21:27 PM	#133
.Robert Death Reapers Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,270 Death Reapers	Species Clause: 6 Arceus lgi

Dec 29th, 2012, 8:58:31 PM	#134
Hugin Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 104	Specs Ogre, Scarf Ogre, Arceus-Elec, ExtremeKiller, Arceus-Steel, Arceus-Dragon. Watch people rage. Sleep will be interesting. I doubt it will get unbanned, but there will be some interesting sets while it lasts.

Dec 29th, 2012, 9:58:32 PM	#135
~~blitzlefan~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 549 Texas	Species clause will stay intact for sure IMO. Why use anything not named Arceus/Kyogre when there's a Arceus and a XYZ Plate just begging for you to use it? With Species clause out of play, I think there'll be dramatic centralization around Arceus and without sleep clause, Darkrai. Probs just stating the obvious tho. :P

Dec 30th, 2012, 12:36:45 AM	#136
Hugin Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 104	Smeargle, too. Baton Pass, Shell Smash, Spore, just got a lot more viable.

Jan 1st, 2013, 1:37:23 AM	#142
Hugin Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 104	But Sleep Talk does show up occasionally. I'm thinking various Choiced mons which only need 3 attacks. Stick Sleep Talk on the 4th slot, you can switch it into Darkrai and spam until you kill.

Jan 3rd, 2013, 2:02:27 PM	#143
ChuckHades Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 56 England	Species clause may not be so bad to play on the ladder, simply because of the amount of gimmick teams; I'm sure as shit that teams with 6 Charizard are gonna be more common than well thought out teams with versatile pokemon used effectively. Also, maybe I'm just being naive, but am I the only one that thinks 6 Arceus teams won't be that bad? For me at least, I use Arceus to complete a team, rather than build a team around it. That's why it's so good; Arceus can fulfill every role in the game quite well, none of them perfectly, but well. But this means Arceus is a very situational pokemon: There's no reason to use, say, Arceus Psychic over Mewtwo unless your specific teambuild necessitates it. Want a great wallbreaker? Why use Arceus Dragon over White Kyurem? Want a sturdy special wall? Why use any Arceus over Chansey, Bllissey, Jirachi, hell even sp.def Meloetta is passable in ubers (passable, not great). Want a great revenge killer? Why use Extreme Killer (Which is not a good revenge killer, I might add) or Scarf Arceus (lol) over scarf Kyogre, or scarf Terrakion, or scarf <insert good scarfer here>? My point is that bar a very select few (EK, Ghostceus, Rockceus in sand, MAYBE Grassceus & Steelceus), the job that a given Arceus would do on a team full of Arceus would be done better by something else; Arceus is a niche pokemon, NOT something you build around. Moody's only hindrance is going to be that the pokemon that get it are shit; otherwise that's probably broken, or too centralising. I don't want to have to run Ditto, who only works in negative 5% of matches in Ubers, in order to stop Bidoof sweeping me. Sleep I'm undecided on. Obviously the only reason people are freaking out is because of Darkrai being a goddamn menace (125 speed with moderately accurate sleep move, 135 sp.atk and set up move? nothx). But it's not that difficult to deal with on paper. Darkrai basically dies to a light breeze, so anything faster than it and its not a problem. And yea, sleep talk + 3 good moves is also a decent idea. And of course there's insomnia Delibird ;) All 3 look very interesting to test though, and while I'm pretty sure they'll all remain banned, I can't wait to try out some original teams.

Jan 4th, 2013, 8:21:54 PM	#145
~~blitzlefan~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 549 Texas	to counter Darkrai, there would be Sleep Talk/Chesto Berry/Lum Berry... but I don't want to have to run that on every poke that I want to use... also, typical scarfers (eg Kyogre, Palkia, anything under 125 Spe) would lose to a faster sleep. that would sux

Jan 5th, 2013, 1:22:56 AM	#146
Hugin Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 104	Bad Dreams takes 8 turns to kill. Figure, conservatively, you'll wake up twice. Is there an Ubers poke that can't 2hko Darkrai? Darkrai will be good with no Sleep clause, but Scarf won't be viable. I'm currently thinking LO with Void/Pulse/Substitute/Dream Eater.

Jan 18th, 2013, 9:20:43 PM	#147
ntiller Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 27	When we test sleep clause I predict Scarf Primeape becoming an actual player in Ubers. Even when they don't have a Darkrai, it can still act as a worse Genesect with STAB Close Combat. Also, I bet Smeargle ends up being really good while testing sleep clause. Minimize + Spore + Shell Smash + Baton Pass is looking better and better. Add Moody in there and you have another metagame-defining Pokemon (the others being Extreme Killer, Kyogre, and to a lesser extent Groudon).

Jan 19th, 2013, 12:01:31 AM	#148
Nyara Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 288 Chile > Santiago	Let's see: Moody: It should be unbanned, Smeargle may see some more uses, but it will not change anything else. Sleep: Darkrai will see more uses, but let's think: Sleep just last 3 turns on avarage, and half ubers tier can OHKO it back, and the other half can 2HKO it, just don't switch out and keep attacking until it's out from game. Parasect's niche will love it, but you know, Parasect is not the fearest Pokémon there. Breloom and Quiver Dance Venomoth + Baton Pass may be seen, but nothing incredible, anyway. Species: 5 Kyogres, 1 counter to it's counters. Maybe 4 Kyogres, 1 Kyogre-Counters, and 1 Arceus to being more versatile. __________________ I love Caterpie, he's a so adorable little bug! ♥ (Also, sorry for my English, I'm still learning it and I'm not a native speaker).

Mar 8th, 2013, 4:33:34 PM	#149
ntiller Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 27	When will the next round of clause testing start? Also, what will be the next clause tested?

Mar 8th, 2013, 6:11:23 PM	#150
Furai standing in the eye of the hurricane Moderator Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,106	Next round will start right after SPL finals, and we will be investigating Moody Clause. __________________ *#gohard* \| Wolfpack (Ubers RMT)