The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups) - Page 3

~~blitzlefan~~ · Dec 13th, 2012, 6:14:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Takion

I must ask...why is Charizard in ubers...Im assuming theres a special build to counter the tier?

Lol it's not really in Ubers. It's just mentioned (ironically) in E-tier to tell the n00b players that Charizard sucks in Ubers/in general. DON'T USE IT!!! :)

Brave Bird spam · Dec 19th, 2012, 3:07:02 PM

I think manaphy should be moved to B rank. Calm mind sets can set up on many choiced and defensive pokemon such as Kyogre and palkia locked into water moves, V-create locked CB rayquaza, and a whole load of special attacking pokemon after they’ve either used Dmeteor or locked themselves into fire blast. Since all but the most defensive of full stall teams have a choice scarf wielder, manaphy gets ample setup opportunities. Also, it becomes more and more difficult to revenge kill after it Calm minds because the special defense boost blunts the power of many specially attacking ubers.

Then there’s tail glow, which kind of sucks vs. offense, but reaches +6 in 2 turns and has no problem wiping out entire stall teams. Status, one of stall’s best methods of dealing damage, is ineffective against manaphy, allowing it to sweep even more easily.

I’m not trying to say manaphy is fantastic, since other weather types besides rain cripple it, scarf zekrom revenges it, and its stats aren’t the greatest, but its better than other pokemon in the C tier, like jynx, qwilfish and tornadus.

Also, what prevents heatran from moving up to B? I’m not going to try to convince anyone it should be because I don’t use it much, I’m just curious.

skeezyj · Dec 22nd, 2012, 9:24:46 PM

I agree with Brave Bird Spam in that Manaphy should be moved up to B rank. This bulky Tail Glow set is pretty much the ultimate stall breaker.

...

It can get to +6 incredibly easily, and can all but ignore passive damage so valuable to stall teams thanks to sub and rest, and as long as rain is up, you have instant, 100% recovery and immunity to status. It does rely completely on rain for its instant recovery as well as a good deal of power, but it guarantees KO's against the bulkiest walls and resists in the meta, as well as opposing weather inducers in their weathers. Here's some calcs:

...

As you can see, Manaphy has the capability to KO many staples on stall and offensive teams alike. In addition, it retains a large amount of bulk, with Jolly Extremekiller Arceus unable to OHKO it, even at +2. It can be revenge killed, but not too easily--even incredibly powerful attacks like Choice Band Earthquake from Adamant Groudon or Outrage from Jolly Choice Band Garchomp, and Life Orb, STAB Draco Meteors coming off of base 150 Special Attack all fail to OHKO, all of whom Manaphy can easily OHKO. In short, Manaphy's absurd power and underrated bulk allow it to poop from a great height on stall teams of all sorts, and if Substitute is used over Ice Beam, it can be a menace to offensive teams as well.

jackm · Dec 23rd, 2012, 2:38:31 PM

Just saying that pretty much any common variant of Kyogre easily checks/counters that Manaphy; at +3, Manaphy can't even 2HKO Scarf Kyogre with Surf. In return, Thunder has a pretty good chance of KOing Manaphy. SDef Kyogre can just Roar Manaphy while laughing at even +6 Surf, Specs (fat or not) beats it with Thunder, and Mono-Attacker can actually set up on Manaphy with ease if they don't crit. I don't have a lot of experience with Manaphy to make a fully informed decision on this placement, but due to Kyogre's prevalence I think that it shouldn't be overlooked as a roadblock.

Brave Bird spam · Dec 23rd, 2012, 5:11:01 PM

Manaphy commonly runs grass knot as a coverage move, in fact showdown doesn't even list rest as a viable move because so many people use grass knot instead.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 100.99 - 118.81% -- guaranteed OHKO

CM manaphy can beat scarfogre if it CMs on the switch. It doesn't even come close to OHKOing CM manaphy at +1 sdef with thunder.

252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 52.97 - 62.37% -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO

Manaphy sets up on scarfogre with CM.

Hell, specs kyoge doen't OHKO +1 CM manaphy with thunder.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 79.2 - 93.56% -- guaranteed 2HKO

Manaphy can scald kyogre in return and fish for burn hax, though it can't set up on specsogre(but seriously, nothing can set up on specsogre).

Manaphy isn't perfect, but it still isn't a c rank pokemon.

jackm · Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:22:11 PM

Incidentally, Rest is actually run more than twice as much as Grass Knot. While this doesn't invalidate your point (GK is used almost a third of the time) it does save Kyogre from being completely disregarded as a check/counter. After all, Ho-oh uses Earthquake more than Manaphy uses Grass Knot and yet Arceus-Rock is still considered a pretty steadfast counter even though it can be OHKOd by by Flame Charge+Earthquake in the sun.

tehy · Dec 23rd, 2012, 10:32:15 PM

I'd also like to point out that jackm said "that" manaphy, the one you were hyping up so much, is heavily checked/countered by kyogre. And seeing as GK is rare, there's a very good chance that he will be the initial switch-in.

Oh yeah, and spamming rest as kyogre thunders you in the face only works if he never crits. Which he probably will.

Edit: You don't mention scald at all before that, and it's not listed as an option in the set. Meanwhile, that's a 30% chance for a burn, while in return, you're now down to, at the very least, 26% of your life. At this point, you can only rest on free turns, but you could also just save those for either a dangerous sweeper or a hazards setter. Status immunity lets you switch in a little more easily, but then again, you die to a toss after SR.

How do you address what he was saying when you never mentioned the set he specifically addressed? The closest you come to it is when you mention a tail glow set with 252 SpA Evs and grass knot.

Hugin · Dec 24th, 2012, 1:43:34 AM

Now that Minimize is legal, Drifblim for D rank? It has some use on Baton Pass teams, but it's usually not too effective. That seems like a perfect fit for D.

Brave Bird spam · Dec 25th, 2012, 6:09:07 PM

My point wasn't that all manaphy can beat all kyogre(sorry for any confusion), but that Grass knot manaphy OHKOes bulky kyogre after one turn of setup and that CM manaphy sets up on scarfogre, ruling out kyogre as a hard counter.

@tehy: I understand what jackm was trying to say and I addressed that in my previous post... and grass knot is sorta rare but is isn't unheard of.
Also, spamming rest as kyogre thunders is indeed a bad idea, but in theory manaphy can CM as specsogre switches in, then comfortably stay in the following turn and scald fishing for burn hax while surviving one thunder. If kyogre gets burned, great, if not, oh well, and manaphy can switch out the following turn. Then it can rest up later against something like support dialga, forretress, or one of the blobs.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 19th, 2013, 9:23:16 AM

Blaziken: This should be moved to A rank. Yes it requires Sun support but needing a bit of support is mentioned in the definition of an A rank Pokemon. It's ability to OHKO 4/0 Giratina-O after Stealth Rock damage with a +2 Flare Blitz should speak enough about its ability to sweep significant portions of the metagame. It also has the advantage of being impossible to revenge kill with your traditional Choice Scarfer forcing you to rely on ESpeed and other forms of priority to bring it down.

Forretress: This thing is like one of the best support mon in Ubers and should be moved to A rank. Being able to set up Spikes and spin them away at the same time is really useful. Being able to do it in the face of the multitude of Outrage spammers and the infamous Ferrothorn should speak mountains on his amazing ability to support a team. Sure that low SpDef makes it a bit hard to do its job but that steel typing and Sturdy makes sure it does it more often than not.

Kabutops: Again, put this thing up in A rank. This thing is a very deadly sweeper as at +2 you better still have a physical Giratina-A or a Groudon or you are in big trouble. (Checks like SpDef Tina and Grassceus are normally weakened after having to tank Water Spouts from Kyogre) Revenge killing it is also difficult due to SS and normal resist leaving only ScarfTerrakion and Rayquaza who can accomplish this. It is also an excellent Rapid Spinner that can still clean up teams while being quite difficult to spin block.

Calcs

Terrakion: Move to A rank please. He is one of the best Scarfmons in Ubers as he is capable of revenge killing Ekiller, Kabutops, and various others thanks to its excellent STABs. It can also clean teams nicely with those powerful STABs
if the OP makes the mistake of hitting it with a Dark type attack. (looking at you Darkrai)

Bisharp: Move this to at least B rank for now. STAB Sucker Punch is very good to have in Ubers especially when it's backed by a solid 125 base attack. Setting up the SD to clean a team is pretty easy thanks to that steel typing. That low Sucker Punch PP sucks, thus forcing some prediction games, but that doesn't mean it should be any lower than B rank.

Froslass: At least to B rank please. The only downside to its supporting role is that it can't set up SR on top of Spikes. Taunt makes sure nothing is setting up on it, Shadow Ball keeps Magic Bouncers at bay, Icy Wind lets it beat other hazard leads like Deoxys, and Ghost typing makes sure any spinner doesn't troll it while it tries to set up.

Mamoswine: This thing is an amazing wall breaker in the Ubers tier. It pretty much 2HKOs the entire tier and that STAB 130 Ice Shard is never bad in such a dragon populated tier.

Manaphy: Yeah, move it up to B rank please. Honestly, C rank is for niche stuff like Heracross and Manaphy is a solid CM/Tail Glow sweeper. It has its flaws but at the same time it has some very annoying advantages (Immune to status makes it very annoying for Stall).

Omastar: Please to B rank. Its kinda like Kabutops although a tad bit less threatening. However, once it does get that Shell Smash you better pray for a Hydro Pump miss as there isn't much else you can do about this guy. Most of its counters are the typical switch-ins to Kyogre so getting a bit of previous damage on them isn't very difficult. The trick is getting the Shell Smash up but it has a very nice defensive stat and it is threatening enough to force switch-ins.

Reshiram: Wait, what? Why is this in C rank? I know it has an SR weakness and all but Fire/Dragon STABs on top of a nuclear Bue Flare under sun should be enough to at least put it in B rank.

ssbbm · Jan 19th, 2013, 12:19:26 PM

@ reshiram: yeah it really should be in b rank its not as bad as METAGROSS for goodness sake

sammao · Jan 20th, 2013, 1:15:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Blaziken: This should be moved to A rank. Yes it requires Sun support but needing a bit of support is mentioned in the definition of an A rank Pokemon. It's ability to OHKO 4/0 Giratina-O after Stealth Rock damage with a +2 Flare Blitz should speak enough about its ability to sweep significant portions of the metagame. It also has the advantage of being impossible to revenge kill with your traditional Choice Scarfer forcing you to rely on ESpeed and other forms of priority to bring it down.It does OHKO Giratina-O, but it will hit you with shawdow sneak first, plus recoil from flare blitz and life orb, blaziken is dead. Yes, it is very threatening if it set up a SD, but it has some crippling flaw also, including massive recoil (its stab moves+life orb is no joke), fragility, and not as easy to set up compare to A rank monster, and that is why it is B

Forretress: This thing is like one of the best support mon in Ubers and should be moved to A rank. Being able to set up Spikes and spin them away at the same time is really useful. Being able to do it in the face of the multitude of Outrage spammers and the infamous Ferrothorn should speak mountains on his amazing ability to support a team. Sure that low SpDef makes it a bit hard to do its job but that steel typing and Sturdy makes sure it does it more often than not. Well, this one is more controversial, but I guess it has to complete with Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Tentacruel. Yes, it has all three entry hazard and rapid spin, but you can't fit all of them together, and you should consider the advantages of others: Ferrothorn has better stat overall, ability to take on Kyogre and most rain monster, and iron barb is also more useful than sturdy in most of the match. Excadrill may not have spike, but it hit much harder and has more special bulk, while Tentacruel has massive recovery from rain dish. In the end it is controversial, but I think it should stay B because its faces competition of others

Kabutops: Again, put this thing up in A rank. This thing is a very deadly sweeper as at +2 you better still have a physical Giratina-A or a Groudon or you are in big trouble. (Checks like SpDef Tina and Grassceus are normally weakened after having to tank Water Spouts from Kyogre) Revenge killing it is also difficult due to SS and normal resist leaving only ScarfTerrakion and Rayquaza who can accomplish this. It is also an excellent Rapid Spinner that can still clean up teams while being quite difficult to spin block.

Calcs

Your calc exactly shows it is difficult to get past Giratina, Scarf Terrakion is also more common nowadays, and it is rely on rain, all these makes it difficult to be A
Terrakion: Move to A rank please. He is one of the best Scarfmons in Ubers as he is capable of revenge killing Ekiller, Kabutops, and various others thanks to its excellent STABs. It can also clean teams nicely with those powerful STABs
if the OP makes the mistake of hitting it with a Dark type attack. (looking at you Darkrai)

I agree this should be A, it is the best Scarfmons in Ubers with little competitors, and it can still set up RP and/or SD to sweep, and nuke stuff with Choice Band, and set up SR, and check Extreme killer

Bisharp: Move this to at least B rank for now. STAB Sucker Punch is very good to have in Ubers especially when it's backed by a solid 125 base attack. Setting up the SD to clean a team is pretty easy thanks to that steel typing. That low Sucker Punch PP sucks, thus forcing some prediction games, but that doesn't mean it should be any lower than B rank.

Relying on Scker Punch is not fun sometimes, since good player can play around with it, forcing a prediction game that sometimes you win, but other times you lose. Its base low 70 Speed is also problematic at times, and has a fair bit of counters and checks, I agree it is better than a lot of monsters in C rank, no doubt, but when compare to things in B, it just not as great. I guess this is a problem of the ranking system and it would be nice to add a + or - after the letter, lol

Froslass: At least to B rank please. The only downside to its supporting role is that it can't set up SR on top of Spikes. Taunt makes sure nothing is setting up on it, Shadow Ball keeps Magic Bouncers at bay, Icy Wind lets it beat other hazard leads like Deoxys, and Ghost typing makes sure any spinner doesn't troll it while it tries to set up.

Nah, this is definitely C, 110 speed isn't as fast as 180 speed of Deoxy-S. You can easily put your choice scarfer to lead and stop it from setting up twice. On the other hand, very few Choice Scarfer can outspeed Deoxy-S (it outspeed Scarf Garchomp). Plus the fact that it is only good at leading, its niche is limited, so it is C

Mamoswine: This thing is an amazing wall breaker in the Ubers tier. It pretty much 2HKOs the entire tier and that STAB 130 Ice Shard is never bad in such a dragon populated tier.

Yes, this hit hard, but any Arceus not weak to its stab can counter it if they pack a super effective move or Wil-O-wisp, plus it is difficult to get in to launch a hit due to it low speed and fragility, especially on the special side. Prediction is also require to 2HKO a lot of target, so it is C

Manaphy: Yeah, move it up to B rank please. Honestly, C rank is for niche stuff like Heracross and Manaphy is a solid CM/Tail Glow sweeper. It has its flaws but at the same time it has some very annoying advantages (Immune to status makes it very annoying for Stall).

Yeah, I agree Manaphy in B

Omastar: Please to B rank. Its kinda like Kabutops although a tad bit less threatening. However, once it does get that Shell Smash you better pray for a Hydro Pump miss as there isn't much else you can do about this guy. Most of its counters are the typical switch-ins to Kyogre so getting a bit of previous damage on them isn't very difficult. The trick is getting the Shell Smash up but it has a very nice defensive stat and it is threatening enough to force switch-ins.

It dies to every special attack and it is very difficult to set up. And the fact that it is check by Kyogre alone really seals the deal. Even after it set up, there are still a number of ways to halt it, including sacrifice a weather changer like Groudon or Tyranitar and bring in a fast scarfer, priority (especially after it cut its defense by smash), Palkia, Special defensive Giratina, Scarf Ray etc. Kabutops also gives it huge competition. All of these reasons make it stay in C.

Reshiram: Wait, what? Why is this in C rank? I know it has an SR weakness and all but Fire/Dragon STABs on top of a nuclear Bue Flare under sun should be enough to at least put it in B rank.

Yes, Resh is a lot stronger than other stuff in C like Bisharp, but it faces absolutely huge competition from Kyurem-White, which can do most of its job while not rely on sun. And it still has to face SR weakness along with other problems like average speed and the very common Kyogre, it stay in C because of all these reasons

Even though some of your arguments were right, I think you are a bit too much of "want to move everything up a tier". Anyway, good discussion.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 20th, 2013, 8:37:50 AM

Just for reference, when I read the description of a C rank Pokemon I immediately think of Heracross. He has a good niche as a Darkrai counter and cool SE coverage with his STABs to make him worthwhile but his 85 speed and poor neutral coverage makes him no more than a niche mon. He has a reason to use in Ubers but most teams won't need it.

Blaziken: Ah, yeah I overlooked recoil. B rank works then I guess.

Forretress: You don't need all three hazards to be effective, that actually makes it ineffective. Spikes + Rapid Spin is all it needs with the remaining slots going to utility moves like Volt Switch, Toxic, Pain Split, etc. This ability to set up Spikes and spin them is unique and very important. Excadrill may hit harder but Forry is more supportive with Spikes (we all know how important these are in Ubers). Tentacruel lacks the strong defensive stat and Steel typing on top of the far superior Spikes. Ferrothorn can't spin and is actually prime set up fodder for Forretress. Yes, Forry is an unreliable spinner but his ability to lay the ever threatening Spikes puts the opponent in a pinch. Either they bring in their spin blocker as he lays down a layer and probably another while you phaze him out or you go straight to your Spinner/Magic Bouncer/Taunt mon and have all your precious hazards spun away. You can't have a upper hand in the hazards game when playing against Forry, you can just try to keep it even.

Kabutops: It's difficult for Kabutops to get past physically defensive Tina as the SpDef one is surely your Kyogre counter and will thus have the ~30% previous damage for him to be 2HKOd switching into Stone Edge. That's just the pressure he puts trying to spin, he also puts pressure cleaning teams with his excellent coverage and high powered attacks backed by LO, Adament nature and the ability to outspeed everything slower than a ScarfTerrak. (who has shot in usage since Genesect)

Bisharp: You aren't giving him enough credit, his Sucker Punch is stronger than EKiller's ESpeed. The new Low Kick tutor really helped as he now doesn't have to rely on LO to have good coverage allowing him to take other items like Lum Berry or Black Glasses. (cool to keep him healthy like Silk Scarf on EKiller) Again, Sucker Punch is stronger than ESpeed and has a better typing allowing him to pick off a lot of dangerous sweepers making him a good team player as well as sweeper. He may need prediction to properly sweep but other top tier sweepers need prediction to setup. (which that Steel typing and instant threat makes it easy for Bisharp)

Froslass: Yes, but on the other hand Froslass prevents spinners from spinning away its work and forcing it to switch to a spin blocker. It also has Cursed Body which means that 30% of the time a Tina Shadow Sneak or Scarfmon will fail to prevent two layers of Spikes from going down. The lower speed and lack of SR does leave Deo-S to earn the lead spot on more teams. However, she has some worthwhile niches that make her a stronger choice for some teams. This is why I feel Froslass deserves to be in a rank below him.

Calcs

Mamoswine:

Calcs

These are the only guys who avoid a 2HKO outside of niche choices like Cress/Zong. (Although there are some 2HKOs that outspeed Mamo) These should speak a good deal on his ability to wallbreak in Ubers. Ice Shard makes sure this isn't all he is doing, too. The LO set has similar calcs although it needs SR to 2HKO bulky Arceus.

LO Calcs

This good a wallbreaker shouldn't be in the same tier as a mediocre Scarfer who is only used to counter one sweeper.

Omastar:

Calcs

So outside of Counters like Water Arceus and Chansey (and a few niche mons), Omastar just needs a bit of hazard support or some softening up to sweep past a team. If you have to resort to throwing your weather starter to Omastar, I'd say his sweep wasn't so much a failure. I think you are also underestimating his 70/125 defenses and his resistances to Fire and Ice lets him set up on weaker physical attacks and choice locked Fire Blasts, Ice Beams, and Ho-Ohs on top of scaring others out with his instantly strong Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Obviously no Ray or M2 when it comes to sweeping but C rank is undercutting it.

Reshiram: Palkia's Fire Blast hits harder than Kyurem's Fusion Flare so I'm not sure what he brought that outclasses Reshiram. Reshi's defining feature has always been that titanic STAB Blue Flare paired with DM that makes you think twice before bringing in Ogre to tank the Blue Flare. Even under rain this attack has the benefit of allowing Reshiram to OHKO Ferrothorn without having to resort to Choice Specs.

Pokemon Trainer Red made a very informative post that concerns Reshiram. (I edited out the offensive bits and the parts irrelevant to Reshiram. I hope posting this is okay)

...

Reshiram being not one, but two tiers below most of the Pokémon I have listed in Tier C makes very little sense, considering it's a far bigger offensive threat than any other Pokémon in that tier. The only justifications I have seen being given in this thread for putting Reshiram so low on the original list, besides the fact that it is weather-dependent, are its entry hazard weakness, its poor defensive typing, and the idea that it is apparently "outclassed by Kyurem-W." But the exact same entry hazard weakness as well as an even worse defensive typing (aside from the Water resistance, which admittedly is actually huge) did not in any way seem to stop Kyurem-W from being placed in Tier A on the original list, while Reshiram being outclassed by Kyurem-W is blatantly false, because under intense sunlight, Reshiram is, in fact, much more threatening than Kyurem-W under the same weather, as not only does Kyurem-W not have an attack anywhere near as powerful as Reshiram's Blue Flare, but Kyurem-W's attack which comes closest to the power of a Sun-boosted Blue Flare is one that halves its own Special Attack. This means that in the Sun, Choice Scarf Reshiram is a significantly more effective lategame sweeper than Choice Scarf Kyurem-W, since the latter obviously cannot sweep by spamming its most powerful attack, which is much weaker than Reshiram's Blue Flare to begin with anyway, forcing it to use even weaker attacks like Dragon Pulse, Ice Beam and Fusion Flare, all of which, might I add, are barely over half as strong as Reshiram's Blue Flare. Think about why Kyogre is so useful as a Choice Scarf holder, and then compare it to Choice Scarf Kyurem-W to see what Choice Scarf Kyurem-W lacks in comparison, and then with this in mind, compare Choice Scarf Kyurem-W to Choice Scarf Reshiram once again. Having Same Type Attack Bonus for a move with 130 base power and can be boosted by a weather is a massive advantage, and I don't understand why people are overlooking it so much, and yet do not fail to recognize the power of Kyogre's Water Spout (and I should add that unlike Water Spout, Blue Flare's power does not decrease with the user's HP!). I'd really be interested in seeing a Choice Scarf Kyurem-W performing a lategame sweep against a remaining team consisting of an Arceus-Normal at about 70% health, a full-health Mewtwo, a full-health Groudon, and a full-health Darkrai, but my Choice Scarf Reshiram has in fact swept the four aforementioned Pokémon in succession in one battle, and won me that match. And all of this is saying a lot, since unlike every other Tier B Pokémon on my list besides Mewtwo, Kyurem-W is in that tier solely due to its sheer offensive power. And not to mention, Reshiram's typing also offers a lot of advantages defensively that Kyurem-W's doesn't, mainly its 4x resistance rather than neutrality to Fire (to highlight the importance of this, a Life Orb Sacred Fire in the Sun can destroy Kyurem-W in one hit), its resistance rather than neutrality to U-turn, its resistance rather than weakness to Steel (which actually matters at times, as Scizor is used sometimes, and I've seen people putting Iron Head on Genesect. And not to mention, Arceus-Steel. Good luck actually defeating it one-on-one with a non-Choice Scarf Kyurem-W), and its neutrality rather than weakness to Fighting. The only reason why Reshiram is a tier below Kyurem-W on my list is because Kyurem-W is far less weather dependent than Reshiram, making it viable on more teams than Reshiram, since Reshiram should only ever be used in teams with Groudon and no other weather summoner (in other words, Sun teams), while Kyurem-W is viable in any team regardless of whether it is a weatherless team, a team with Kyogre or Tyranitar, or even with two or more weather summoners. Since this list ranks the viability of the Pokémon in the Übers metagame, then it would make sense to place a Pokémon that is viable in teams of any weather above one that is viable only in Sun teams, hence why I am putting Kyurem-W a tier above Reshiram, despite the fact that the latter is far, far more dangerous given the assumption that it is used in a Sun team. But Reshiram certainly does not belong anywhere near as low on the viability list as the vast majority of people seem to believe.

(He had created his own tier lists that, although understandable, didn't really correspond with the description of each tier given in this thread. I don't agree with everything he says but I found his reasoning concerning Reshiram good which is why I'm sharing it.)

Hack He Must · Jan 20th, 2013, 10:40:47 AM

Quote:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

I’d like to propose a Pokémon for the S Rank. A pokemon that together with Kyogre controls the tier itself, and is such a mindless addition to any team that I can not understand why it isn’t S Ranked. Groudon. And here are my five justifications.

1. First off, Groudon holds a wonderful defense stat along with its good HP. It enables it, without any support whatsoever from its team-mates, take not one, but two swords danced extremespeeds from Arceus-Normal, the most terrifying sweeper in existence. With Stealth Rock up.
2. Drought is a perfect ability. Not only does it weaken the best move of the most popular pokemon in the metagame, but it also opens up great possiblities in team building. Ho-oh, Reshiram, Blaziken, would be much worse of without Groudon’s impact on the metagame. Spike stacking is a terrific strategy in the Ubers metagame. Ferrothorn, the Pokemon we all hate, is much easier handled when the weather is sunny, as even magic bouncers as Xatu or Espeon can OHKO it with a fire move.
3.Groudon is without doubt the best stealth rock setter in the entire metagame, perhaps barring Deoxys-Speed. It is all about opportunity cost. An Arceus forme can get rocks up with great consistency, but usually you want to use your precious move-slots for something other. No problem, Groudon always carries Stealth Rock by default, because it doesn’t really need more than its STAB Earthquake (which is the strongest one in the game), and share the remaining move-slots between Fire Punch, Stone Edge, Roar/Dragon Rail or Thunder Wave. There is no pokemon, except Deoxys-S, who doesn’t mind having to use a moveslot for Stealth Rock as little as Groudon.
4. Dialga and Groudon can’t be in the same rank. Take away Swords Dance+Rock Polish and Drought out of the equation and we have two very similar Pokemon, except Dialga is specially based with a different typing. Because the fact that Groudon has Drought, and Dialga don’t, they can’t be in the same tier. Now, I do understand that it doesn’t necessarily mean that these two Pokemon are exactly as good as each other, but the fact that Groudon has the a greater sweeper potential as well as an ability that both hinders the most common team Archetype in the game while simultaniously eases fighting one of the deadlies strategies in the game, as well as fueling incredibly powerful mons, all at the same time would mean that Groudon must be a rank over Dialga.
5. Versatility. Quoted from the definition of S-rank:

”Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability.”

Not only is Groudon the best Stealth Rocker in the entire game, it is also a deadly sweeper, an effective lure (toxic Lugia), simply put: a Pokemon that can do a lot of things.

Even if Groudon has Stealth Rocks, one can not assume it to be defensive and therefore a misplay can be deadly.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 20th, 2013, 10:58:23 AM

Calcs

Groudon just isn't threatening enough to be S rank. For starters, all of its sets are check/countered by Kyogre. (MonoOgre is an excellent set that can switch in and hit back with a rain boosted. The exception is CBDon who outspeeds and 2HKOs with EQ on the switch-in) There are a multitude of other various counters that make Groudon less threatening than Kyogre's almighty Water Spout or EKiller's annoying ESpeed. He's a good A rank mon for his versatility, support and power but he isn't good enough at these things to be S rank. (I'm not sure why you compare it to Dialga like that, just about every cover legend has a similar variation of the same stat distribution.)

Hack He Must · Jan 20th, 2013, 11:14:00 AM

I rarely assume Life Orb when discussing E-killer, just because it is not a good item on it IMO. Threatening or not, it is also the perfect support mon, with very little opportunity cost.

Let's look at the guidelines for S-rank again.

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S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Groudon can sweep with a little support, dual screen Deoxys-S is in my eyes not a wasted team-slot for a HO team anyway. By walling significant portions of the metagame, I am of course talking about the very omnipresent E-killer, as well as other big threats like Kabutops, Terrakion, DD Quaza, all SD Arceus variants etc.

Multiple roles: Support, Offensive Stealth Rock, Lum Double Dance, LO Rock Polish, CB, Specially defensive. There are many Groudon sets, all viable, and it gives Groudon a very increased versatility. And now I haven't even mentioned Drought yet.

Anikrahman1995 · Jan 20th, 2013, 11:22:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Calcs

Groudon just isn't threatening enough to be S rank. For starters, all of its sets are check/countered by Kyogre. (MonoOgre is an excellent set that can switch in and hit back with a rain boosted. The exception is CBDon who outspeeds and 2HKOs with EQ on the switch-in) There are a multitude of other various counters that make Groudon less threatening than Kyogre's almighty Water Spout or EKiller's annoying ESpeed. He's a good A rank mon for his versatility, support and power but he isn't good enough at these things to be S rank. (I'm not sure why you compare it to Dialga like that, just about every cover legend has a similar variation of the same stat distribution.)

First off, I consider Life Orb to be a very bad item on Arceus; Silk Scarf should be used instead. Groudon can easily survive 2 +2 Silk Scarf ExtremeSpeeds. This misconception that Mono-attacker can easily switch into Groudon is exactly why Groudon is so dangerous. The Offensive Stealth Rock Groudon (thats right Poppy) can 2hko the mono-attacker set as it switches in. Groudon is also able to stop one of the most common leads from setting up Stealth Rock: Support Dialga. Groudon can quickly kill the hazard setters in the Ubers tier.

Groudon does not have Superpower. Note: Groudon can use Counter to OHKO Arceus.

Go10 · Jan 20th, 2013, 11:29:06 AM

Don't forget that the S rank is reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, which isn't the case at all with Groudon. He got a lot of check and some hard counter, there is no reason at all to put him in this rank.

PS : if you counter, he can just SD again and laugh at you. Stop it, really.

Also, I would like to propose Fightceus in the A rank. Despite the fact that he doesnt bring anything really usefull on the defensive side (grass can check both Ogre and Groudon, Steel check Dragon and got a powerful mono-stab, Ghost is ... broken and check everything), he got a powerful Stab in the form of Fighting Judgement which can 2HKO without Calm Mind a lot of thing. When you take at the 'Mons who can check him, they are very few. Darkrai (if he didn't used Dark Void, and you check it easily with thing like Sleep Talk Ogre, then he's a setup bait), Giratina (he can only phaze you, he's 2HKOed by Ice Beam if he miss Dragon tail, he's done), Giratina-O (who dont even have a recovery move), Ho-Oh, Lati@s and Mewtwo, Lugia (who's 2hkoed with SR, so he has to chose between phazing or toxic then die), Kyogre can phaze you, but if he isn't Specs, there is a high chance that you beat him; Deo-A and Ghostceus stop you cold too.
A lot of them are easily checked by Stealth Rock, Rain, or the simple combinaison Jirachi + Kyogre.

The fact that he is really difficult to stop him (which follow the description of this rank), has a very good Stab for the Uber metagame and can check the overcommon Dialga/EKceus, I think it deserve to be A rank and not B. Also, the fun fact is that he's the only Mindceus who can stomp Ferrothorn if he dare to show his face.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 20th, 2013, 11:49:17 AM

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Originally Posted by Fat Hack He Must

I rarely assume Life Orb when discussing E-killer, just because it is not a good item on it IMO. Threatening or not, it is also the perfect support mon, with very little opportunity cost.

Groudon can sweep with a little support, dual screen Deoxys-S is in my eyes not a wasted team-slot for a HO team anyway. By walling significant portions of the metagame, I am of course talking about the very omnipresent E-killer, as well as other big threats like Kabutops, Terrakion, DD Quaza, all SD Arceus variants etc.

All the same, defensive Groudon does almost nothing to EKiller so he's going to lose one on one or 2HKO'd from the bit of previous damage he took switching in to bring back Sun and checking stuff he has that defensive spread for.

He needs a lot of support, that was my point with Kyogre. Something with a mere 100/90 defenses checks a majority of his set just by investing into bulk. Clearly, there are going to be many other walls (Giratina, Lugia, ect.) that are going to have much less difficulty beating Groudon than they do most other physical attackers.

Groudon isn't something like Kyogre where the first thing you do when building a team is grab a double resist. I normally counter this thing without even trying when team building as most Pokemon you would consider for a team deal with him. Again, he's a great mon and solidly A rank but S rank is overstating his support powers. (he has to compete with the mulititude of Kyogre's in keeping that Sun up)
(Thanks Anik for letting me know he doesn't have SP)

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Originally Posted by Fat Go10

The fact that he is really difficult to stop him (which follow the description of this rank), has a very good Stab for the Uber metagame and can check the overcommon Dialga/EKceus, I think it deserve to be A rank and not B.

Also, the fun fact is that he's the only Mindceus who can stomp Ferrothorn if he dare to show his face.

Eh, being one of the very few mons that give Mewtwo a safe switch-in hurts and he has a fair amount of checks/counters. However, when comparing him to the Arceus Forms in A and B he does seem to fit better in A rank as a more aggressive version of a grass, steel or ghost Arceus. Fight + Ice is very good SE coverage so he doesn't need as many CMs to start being a threat. (And then there's those utility Fightceus that lure out M2 and hit him with Toxic)

Fireceus roasts Ferrothorn :P. (Too bad he sucks too much for that to matter)

Mr.lol · Jan 20th, 2013, 12:27:19 PM

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1. First off, Groudon holds a wonderful defense stat along with its good HP. It enables it, without any support whatsoever from its team-mates, take not one, but two swords danced extremespeeds from Arceus-Normal, the most terrifying sweeper in existence. With Stealth Rock up.

Its low Special Defense stat is its bane. A 252 SpA + Life Orbed Draco Meteor will actually OHKO Groudon. That and Groudon doesn't have reliable Recovery, all it has is Rest. I know Kyogre suffers from similar problems, but since Ubers is more Specially oriented, Groudon actually can't do the same. That and Kyogre has the raw power of Rain boosted Water Spout! Groudon boasts nothing that can come close to that power (well except CB EQ, but I mean there are mons immune to that move... (for the record that's the reason why its so hard for Groudon to run a Choice Scarf set)). Don't get me wrong, Groudon is a great pokemon, its just not enough for S rank.

For the record, Groudon can just Dragon Tail or use Roar on Extremekiller, basically delaying it from sweeping for the rest of the match (its a check).

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Also, I would like to propose Fightceus in the A rank. Despite the fact that he doesnt bring anything really usefull on the defensive side (grass can check both Ogre and Groudon, Steel check Dragon and got a powerful mono-stab, Ghost is ... broken and check everything), he got a powerful Stab in the form of Fighting Judgement which can 2HKO without Calm Mind a lot of thing. When you take at the 'Mons who can check him, they are very few. Darkrai (if he didn't used Dark Void, and you check it easily with thing like Sleep Talk Ogre, then he's a setup bait), Giratina (he can only phaze you, he's 2HKOed by Ice Beam if he miss Dragon tail, he's done), Giratina-O (who dont even have a recovery move), Ho-Oh, Lati@s and Mewtwo, Lugia (who's 2hkoed with SR, so he has to chose between phazing or toxic then die), Kyogre can phaze you, but if he isn't Specs, there is a high chance that you beat him; Deo-A and Ghostceus stop you cold too.
A lot of them are easily checked by Stealth Rock, Rain, or the simple combinaison Jirachi + Kyogre.

I actually fully support Fighting Arceus being moved to A rank. Although not mentioned, Fighting Arceus can actually check Darkrai as it resists Dark Pulse and can swat Darkrai down with Judgment. Its also one of the largest threats to sand teams, capable of KOing Tyranitar and Hippowdon easily, then move on to threaten that Excadrill and Gliscor and Giratina-a on the sand team (if Ho-Oh's on the sand team, I'm not even going to go into how easy it is to setup SR and weaken it so that it falls into range for +1 Ice Beam (that is a lot of prior damage though).

Hack He Must · Jan 20th, 2013, 12:27:32 PM

He can phaze out E-killer twice with dragon tail and with SR damage added, Arceus will have lost 60 % of health in two sweeping attempts. And we are assuming it gets a free set-up here.

And for the last time, Mono-Kyogre does not resemble even a remotely close counter to offensive Groudon.

252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.91%) -- 71.09% chance to 2HKO

And about Giratina:
+2 252+ Atk Groudon Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 272-320 (54.07 - 63.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With a lum berry, Groudon gets past Giratina.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 20th, 2013, 12:41:39 PM

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 186-219 (46.03 - 54.2%) -- 55.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Groudon Dragon Tail vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 53-63 (13.15 - 15.63%) -- possible 7HKO

I'm not sure where you got that 60% from. Also, Ekiller will be getting a free setup as staying in to hit it as it SDs means that Groudon can't switch in directly and has to come in after a kill. He's a check at best.

Didn't say he was a counter, I said he checks a majority of his sets.

If you SD then just about any special attacker can revenge kill you while if you RP all those defensive counters I listed have no problem stopping your sweep.

Edit: 50% what? You bring Groudon in on Ekiller as he SDs (12% lost to SR), phaze while losing half your HP (25% lost total), stuff happens and Ekiller comes in again (37% total lost) and SDs while finishing off Groudon with a second ESpeed. The only exception is if you consider low rolls and Groudon somehow not taking absolutely any damage before the second time EKiller comes in and DTail hits both times. Even then a 50% +2 Silk Scarf Ekiller has no problem sweeping the rest of your team if you had to resort to Groudon to check it.

Hack He Must · Jan 20th, 2013, 1:03:34 PM

Okay, I was wrong, about 50 % would be more accurate.

Edit: Yeah it might kill the second time, but without LO it might not. Obviously, Groudon should not be the only way to handle E-killer on a team, but it should be the first resort to phaze it.

Brave Bird spam · Jan 20th, 2013, 10:16:49 PM

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Originally Posted by Fat Mr.lol

Its low Special Defense stat is its bane. A 252 SpA + Life Orbed Draco Meteor will actually OHKO Groudon. That and Groudon doesn't have reliable Recovery, all it has is Rest. I know Kyogre suffers from similar problems, but since Ubers is more Specially oriented, Groudon actually can't do the same. That and Kyogre has the raw power of Rain boosted Water Spout! Groudon boasts nothing that can come close to that power (well except CB EQ, but I mean there are mons immune to that move... (for the record that's the reason why its so hard for Groudon to run a Choice Scarf set)). Don't get me wrong, Groudon is a great pokemon, its just not enough for S rank.

For the record, Groudon can just Dragon Tail or use Roar on Extremekiller, basically delaying it from sweeping for the rest of the match (its a check).

About recovery,wish support can easily be managed because groudon + [insert pink blob here] walls a lot. While groudon cannot hope to match kyogre's raw power, RP and SD are both much better purely offensive boosting options than CM because they boost a stat by 2 stages.
Defensively, groudon gets stealth rock which is huge and also has the bonus of shutting down excadrill and terrakion as well as some other sand sweepers like landorus rather easily. I still am not sure whether groudon is S-worthy, I'm neutral on this issue as of now but I just wanted to point these things out

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I actually fully support Fighting Arceus being moved to A rank. Although not mentioned, Fighting Arceus can actually check Darkrai as it resists Dark Pulse and can swat Darkrai down with Judgment. Its also one of the largest threats to sand teams, capable of KOing Tyranitar and Hippowdon easily, then move on to threaten that Excadrill and Gliscor and Giratina-a on the sand team (if Ho-Oh's on the sand team, I'm not even going to go into how easy it is to setup SR and weaken it so that it falls into range for +1 Ice Beam (that is a lot of prior damage though).

^Pretty much this. Yeah please move fightceus to A. Don't forget it is a good addition to stall as well as offense since it shuts down dark and stell arceus, major threats to stall! Really its only huge flaw is being vulnerable to mewtwo and ho-oh, but it makes up for this by faring better against blissey than other forms. And also, what CM arceus form besides rock isn't weak to ho-oh?=P

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 21st, 2013, 3:36:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Fat Brave Bird spam

About recovery,wish support can easily be managed because groudon + [insert pink blob here] walls a lot. While groudon cannot hope to match kyogre's raw power, RP and SD are both much better purely offensive boosting options than CM because they boost a stat by 2 stages.
Defensively, groudon gets stealth rock which is huge and also has the bonus of shutting down excadrill and terrakion as well as some other sand sweepers like landorus rather easily. I still am not sure whether groudon is S-worthy, I'm neutral on this issue as of now but I just wanted to point these things out

S rank mons shouldn't need Wish support, they should be threatening all by themselves. (little support refers to needing Rain up in OU, IMO) The cool thing about Kyogre is that he doesn't need SD to hit just as hard. Water Spout's high base power and the boost it gets from rain literally makes more than twice as strong as Groudon's EQ. Even +1 Ogre hits harder with Surf than Groudon does with +2 EQ (Scald has almost the same BP but with a burn chance thrown in) while he gets a big SpDef buff that lets him tank attacks from faster foes.
SR is a cool move for him to have but there are enough viable SR setters in Ubers that I don't think this is reason enough to push him for S rank.

Dec 22nd, 2012, 9:24:46 PM	#53
skeezyj Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 12 Boston	I agree with Brave Bird Spam in that Manaphy should be moved up to B rank. This bulky Tail Glow set is pretty much the ultimate stall breaker. ... Manaphy @ Leftovers Trait: Hydration EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Tail Glow - Rest - Surf - Ice Beam/Substitute It can get to +6 incredibly easily, and can all but ignore passive damage so valuable to stall teams thanks to sub and rest, and as long as rain is up, you have instant, 100% recovery and immunity to status. It does rely completely on rain for its instant recovery as well as a good deal of power, but it guarantees KO's against the bulkiest walls and resists in the meta, as well as opposing weather inducers in their weathers. Here's some calcs: ... +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon in sun: 148.01 - 174.25% +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 172.85 - 203.33% +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 97.02 - 114.85% -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Deoxys-D in rain: 103.94 - 122.69% +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Forretress in rain: 170.62 - 201.12% +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory in rain: 165.56 - 195.2% +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dialga in rain: 54.7 - 64.6% -- guaranteed 2HKO +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in rain: 54.9 - 64.87% -- guaranteed 2HKO +6 4 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 69.18 - 81.51% -- guaranteed 2HKO +6 4 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 72.67 - 85.71% -- guaranteed 2HKO +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 56.53 - 66.47% -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in rain: 44.54 - 52.49% -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock +6 4 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel in rain: 195-230 (53.57 - 63.18%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather As you can see, Manaphy has the capability to KO many staples on stall and offensive teams alike. In addition, it retains a large amount of bulk, with Jolly Extremekiller Arceus unable to OHKO it, even at +2. It can be revenge killed, but not too easily--even incredibly powerful attacks like Choice Band Earthquake from Adamant Groudon or Outrage from Jolly Choice Band Garchomp, and Life Orb, STAB Draco Meteors coming off of base 150 Special Attack all fail to OHKO, all of whom Manaphy can easily OHKO. In short, Manaphy's absurd power and underrated bulk allow it to poop from a great height on stall teams of all sorts, and if Substitute is used over Ice Beam, it can be a menace to offensive teams as well.

Dec 23rd, 2012, 10:32:15 PM	#57
tehy Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,156	I'd also like to point out that jackm said "that" manaphy, the one you were hyping up so much, is heavily checked/countered by kyogre. And seeing as GK is rare, there's a very good chance that he will be the initial switch-in. Oh yeah, and spamming rest as kyogre thunders you in the face only works if he never crits. Which he probably will. Edit: You don't mention scald at all before that, and it's not listed as an option in the set. Meanwhile, that's a 30% chance for a burn, while in return, you're now down to, at the very least, 26% of your life. At this point, you can only rest on free turns, but you could also just save those for either a dangerous sweeper or a hazards setter. Status immunity lets you switch in a little more easily, but then again, you die to a toss after SR. How do you address what he was saying when you never mentioned the set he specifically addressed? The closest you come to it is when you mention a tail glow set with 252 SpA Evs and grass knot. Last edited by tehy; Dec 25th, 2012 at 7:47:04 PM.

Jan 19th, 2013, 9:23:16 AM	#60
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	Blaziken: This should be moved to A rank. Yes it requires Sun support but needing a bit of support is mentioned in the definition of an A rank Pokemon. It's ability to OHKO 4/0 Giratina-O after Stealth Rock damage with a +2 Flare Blitz should speak enough about its ability to sweep significant portions of the metagame. It also has the advantage of being impossible to revenge kill with your traditional Choice Scarfer forcing you to rely on ESpeed and other forms of priority to bring it down. Forretress: This thing is like one of the best support mon in Ubers and should be moved to A rank. Being able to set up Spikes and spin them away at the same time is really useful. Being able to do it in the face of the multitude of Outrage spammers and the infamous Ferrothorn should speak mountains on his amazing ability to support a team. Sure that low SpDef makes it a bit hard to do its job but that steel typing and Sturdy makes sure it does it more often than not. Kabutops: Again, put this thing up in A rank. This thing is a very deadly sweeper as at +2 you better still have a physical Giratina-A or a Groudon or you are in big trouble. (Checks like SpDef Tina and Grassceus are normally weakened after having to tank Water Spouts from Kyogre) Revenge killing it is also difficult due to SS and normal resist leaving only ScarfTerrakion and Rayquaza who can accomplish this. It is also an excellent Rapid Spinner that can still clean up teams while being quite difficult to spin block. Calcs 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost in rain: 220-259 (49.54 - 58.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Giratina: 183-216 (36.38 - 42.94%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (This is your SpecsOgre switch-in and he only has Rest for recovery) 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 136-161 (27.03 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock Terrakion: Move to A rank please. He is one of the best Scarfmons in Ubers as he is capable of revenge killing Ekiller, Kabutops, and various others thanks to its excellent STABs. It can also clean teams nicely with those powerful STABs if the OP makes the mistake of hitting it with a Dark type attack. (looking at you Darkrai) Bisharp: Move this to at least B rank for now. STAB Sucker Punch is very good to have in Ubers especially when it's backed by a solid 125 base attack. Setting up the SD to clean a team is pretty easy thanks to that steel typing. That low Sucker Punch PP sucks, thus forcing some prediction games, but that doesn't mean it should be any lower than B rank. Froslass: At least to B rank please. The only downside to its supporting role is that it can't set up SR on top of Spikes. Taunt makes sure nothing is setting up on it, Shadow Ball keeps Magic Bouncers at bay, Icy Wind lets it beat other hazard leads like Deoxys, and Ghost typing makes sure any spinner doesn't troll it while it tries to set up. Mamoswine: This thing is an amazing wall breaker in the Ubers tier. It pretty much 2HKOs the entire tier and that STAB 130 Ice Shard is never bad in such a dragon populated tier. Manaphy: Yeah, move it up to B rank please. Honestly, C rank is for niche stuff like Heracross and Manaphy is a solid CM/Tail Glow sweeper. It has its flaws but at the same time it has some very annoying advantages (Immune to status makes it very annoying for Stall). Omastar: Please to B rank. Its kinda like Kabutops although a tad bit less threatening. However, once it does get that Shell Smash you better pray for a Hydro Pump miss as there isn't much else you can do about this guy. Most of its counters are the typical switch-ins to Kyogre so getting a bit of previous damage on them isn't very difficult. The trick is getting the Shell Smash up but it has a very nice defensive stat and it is threatening enough to force switch-ins. Reshiram: Wait, what? Why is this in C rank? I know it has an SR weakness and all but Fire/Dragon STABs on top of a nuclear Bue Flare under sun should be enough to at least put it in B rank.

Jan 20th, 2013, 8:37:50 AM	#63
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	Just for reference, when I read the description of a C rank Pokemon I immediately think of Heracross. He has a good niche as a Darkrai counter and cool SE coverage with his STABs to make him worthwhile but his 85 speed and poor neutral coverage makes him no more than a niche mon. He has a reason to use in Ubers but most teams won't need it. Blaziken: Ah, yeah I overlooked recoil. B rank works then I guess. Forretress: You don't need all three hazards to be effective, that actually makes it ineffective. Spikes + Rapid Spin is all it needs with the remaining slots going to utility moves like Volt Switch, Toxic, Pain Split, etc. This ability to set up Spikes and spin them is unique and very important. Excadrill may hit harder but Forry is more supportive with Spikes (we all know how important these are in Ubers). Tentacruel lacks the strong defensive stat and Steel typing on top of the far superior Spikes. Ferrothorn can't spin and is actually prime set up fodder for Forretress. Yes, Forry is an unreliable spinner but his ability to lay the ever threatening Spikes puts the opponent in a pinch. Either they bring in their spin blocker as he lays down a layer and probably another while you phaze him out or you go straight to your Spinner/Magic Bouncer/Taunt mon and have all your precious hazards spun away. You can't have a upper hand in the hazards game when playing against Forry, you can just try to keep it even. Kabutops: It's difficult for Kabutops to get past physically defensive Tina as the SpDef one is surely your Kyogre counter and will thus have the ~30% previous damage for him to be 2HKOd switching into Stone Edge. That's just the pressure he puts trying to spin, he also puts pressure cleaning teams with his excellent coverage and high powered attacks backed by LO, Adament nature and the ability to outspeed everything slower than a ScarfTerrak. (who has shot in usage since Genesect) Bisharp: You aren't giving him enough credit, his Sucker Punch is stronger than EKiller's ESpeed. The new Low Kick tutor really helped as he now doesn't have to rely on LO to have good coverage allowing him to take other items like Lum Berry or Black Glasses. (cool to keep him healthy like Silk Scarf on EKiller) Again, Sucker Punch is stronger than ESpeed and has a better typing allowing him to pick off a lot of dangerous sweepers making him a good team player as well as sweeper. He may need prediction to properly sweep but other top tier sweepers need prediction to setup. (which that Steel typing and instant threat makes it easy for Bisharp) Froslass: Yes, but on the other hand Froslass prevents spinners from spinning away its work and forcing it to switch to a spin blocker. It also has Cursed Body which means that 30% of the time a Tina Shadow Sneak or Scarfmon will fail to prevent two layers of Spikes from going down. The lower speed and lack of SR does leave Deo-S to earn the lead spot on more teams. However, she has some worthwhile niches that make her a stronger choice for some teams. This is why I feel Froslass deserves to be in a rank below him. Calcs 4- Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 11-13 (4.21 - 4.98%) -- 9HKO at best 4- Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Tentacruel: 31-37 (8.51 - 10.16%) -- 9HKO at best 4- Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress: 140-168 (39.54 - 47.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 4- Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Forretress in rain: 68-84 (19.2 - 23.72%) -- possible 6HKO (You can lead with Ogre then pass to Forry as he sets up SR. He either stays in as you Spin or goes to a blocker while risking Spikes being set up. Either way, Deo is forced out while only having set up SR.) 4- Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 142-168 (35.06 - 41.48%) -- 76.61% chance to 3HKO 4- Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 176 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 142-168 (35.06 - 41.48%) -- 76.61% chance to 3HKO Mamoswine: Calcs 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Arceus-Fighting: 195-231 (43.91 - 52.02%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Skarmory: 156-184 (46.7 - 55.08%) -- 13.67% chance to 2HKO These are the only guys who avoid a 2HKO outside of niche choices like Cress/Zong. (Although there are some 2HKOs that outspeed Mamo) These should speak a good deal on his ability to wallbreak in Ubers. Ice Shard makes sure this isn't all he is doing, too. The LO set has similar calcs although it needs SR to 2HKO bulky Arceus. LO Calcs 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost: 199-235 (44.81 - 52.92%) -- 27.34% chance to 2HKO This good a wallbreaker shouldn't be in the same tier as a mediocre Scarfer who is only used to counter one sweeper. Omastar: Calcs +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre in rain: 287-339 (71.03 - 83.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre in rain: 287-339 (83.91 - 99.12%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 231-273 (71.96 - 85.04%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes (You can look at this as two SR switch-ins) +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 343-406 (68.19 - 80.71%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes (Again you are tanking Kyogre's Spouts with this guy so its not much previous damage to ask for) +2 252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 258-304 (73.29 - 86.36%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes So outside of Counters like Water Arceus and Chansey (and a few niche mons), Omastar just needs a bit of hazard support or some softening up to sweep past a team. If you have to resort to throwing your weather starter to Omastar, I'd say his sweep wasn't so much a failure. I think you are also underestimating his 70/125 defenses and his resistances to Fire and Ice lets him set up on weaker physical attacks and choice locked Fire Blasts, Ice Beams, and Ho-Ohs on top of scaring others out with his instantly strong Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Obviously no Ray or M2 when it comes to sweeping but C rank is undercutting it. Reshiram: Palkia's Fire Blast hits harder than Kyurem's Fusion Flare so I'm not sure what he brought that outclasses Reshiram. Reshi's defining feature has always been that titanic STAB Blue Flare paired with DM that makes you think twice before bringing in Ogre to tank the Blue Flare. Even under rain this attack has the benefit of allowing Reshiram to OHKO Ferrothorn without having to resort to Choice Specs. Pokemon Trainer Red made a very informative post that concerns Reshiram. (I edited out the offensive bits and the parts irrelevant to Reshiram. I hope posting this is okay) ... Reshiram being not one, but two tiers below most of the Pokémon I have listed in Tier C makes very little sense, considering it's a far bigger offensive threat than any other Pokémon in that tier. The only justifications I have seen being given in this thread for putting Reshiram so low on the original list, besides the fact that it is weather-dependent, are its entry hazard weakness, its poor defensive typing, and the idea that it is apparently "outclassed by Kyurem-W." But the exact same entry hazard weakness as well as an even worse defensive typing (aside from the Water resistance, which admittedly is actually huge) did not in any way seem to stop Kyurem-W from being placed in Tier A on the original list, while Reshiram being outclassed by Kyurem-W is blatantly false, because under intense sunlight, Reshiram is, in fact, much more threatening than Kyurem-W under the same weather, as not only does Kyurem-W not have an attack anywhere near as powerful as Reshiram's Blue Flare, but Kyurem-W's attack which comes closest to the power of a Sun-boosted Blue Flare is one that halves its own Special Attack. This means that in the Sun, Choice Scarf Reshiram is a significantly more effective lategame sweeper than Choice Scarf Kyurem-W, since the latter obviously cannot sweep by spamming its most powerful attack, which is much weaker than Reshiram's Blue Flare to begin with anyway, forcing it to use even weaker attacks like Dragon Pulse, Ice Beam and Fusion Flare, all of which, might I add, are barely over half as strong as Reshiram's Blue Flare. Think about why Kyogre is so useful as a Choice Scarf holder, and then compare it to Choice Scarf Kyurem-W to see what Choice Scarf Kyurem-W lacks in comparison, and then with this in mind, compare Choice Scarf Kyurem-W to Choice Scarf Reshiram once again. Having Same Type Attack Bonus for a move with 130 base power and can be boosted by a weather is a massive advantage, and I don't understand why people are overlooking it so much, and yet do not fail to recognize the power of Kyogre's Water Spout (and I should add that unlike Water Spout, Blue Flare's power does not decrease with the user's HP!). I'd really be interested in seeing a Choice Scarf Kyurem-W performing a lategame sweep against a remaining team consisting of an Arceus-Normal at about 70% health, a full-health Mewtwo, a full-health Groudon, and a full-health Darkrai, but my Choice Scarf Reshiram has in fact swept the four aforementioned Pokémon in succession in one battle, and won me that match. And all of this is saying a lot, since unlike every other Tier B Pokémon on my list besides Mewtwo, Kyurem-W is in that tier solely due to its sheer offensive power. And not to mention, Reshiram's typing also offers a lot of advantages defensively that Kyurem-W's doesn't, mainly its 4x resistance rather than neutrality to Fire (to highlight the importance of this, a Life Orb Sacred Fire in the Sun can destroy Kyurem-W in one hit), its resistance rather than neutrality to U-turn, its resistance rather than weakness to Steel (which actually matters at times, as Scizor is used sometimes, and I've seen people putting Iron Head on Genesect. And not to mention, Arceus-Steel. Good luck actually defeating it one-on-one with a non-Choice Scarf Kyurem-W), and its neutrality rather than weakness to Fighting. The only reason why Reshiram is a tier below Kyurem-W on my list is because Kyurem-W is far less weather dependent than Reshiram, making it viable on more teams than Reshiram, since Reshiram should only ever be used in teams with Groudon and no other weather summoner (in other words, Sun teams), while Kyurem-W is viable in any team regardless of whether it is a weatherless team, a team with Kyogre or Tyranitar, or even with two or more weather summoners. Since this list ranks the viability of the Pokémon in the Übers metagame, then it would make sense to place a Pokémon that is viable in teams of any weather above one that is viable only in Sun teams, hence why I am putting Kyurem-W a tier above Reshiram, despite the fact that the latter is far, far more dangerous given the assumption that it is used in a Sun team. But Reshiram certainly does not belong anywhere near as low on the viability list as the vast majority of people seem to believe. (He had created his own tier lists that, although understandable, didn't really correspond with the description of each tier given in this thread. I don't agree with everything he says but I found his reasoning concerning Reshiram good which is why I'm sharing it.) Last edited by Melee Mewtwo; Jan 20th, 2013 at 10:58:53 AM.

Jan 20th, 2013, 10:58:23 AM	#65
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	Calcs +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.91%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 4 Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 132-156 (32.75 - 38.7%) -- 99.51% chance to 3HKO 4 Atk Groudon Superpower vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 212-250 (52.6 - 62.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Groudon just isn't threatening enough to be S rank. For starters, all of its sets are check/countered by Kyogre. (MonoOgre is an excellent set that can switch in and hit back with a rain boosted. The exception is CBDon who outspeeds and 2HKOs with EQ on the switch-in) There are a multitude of other various counters that make Groudon less threatening than Kyogre's almighty Water Spout or EKiller's annoying ESpeed. He's a good A rank mon for his versatility, support and power but he isn't good enough at these things to be S rank. (I'm not sure why you compare it to Dialga like that, just about every cover legend has a similar variation of the same stat distribution.)

Dec 19th, 2012, 3:07:02 PM	#52
Brave Bird spam Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 47	I think manaphy should be moved to B rank. Calm mind sets can set up on many choiced and defensive pokemon such as Kyogre and palkia locked into water moves, V-create locked CB rayquaza, and a whole load of special attacking pokemon after they’ve either used Dmeteor or locked themselves into fire blast. Since all but the most defensive of full stall teams have a choice scarf wielder, manaphy gets ample setup opportunities. Also, it becomes more and more difficult to revenge kill after it Calm minds because the special defense boost blunts the power of many specially attacking ubers. Then there’s tail glow, which kind of sucks vs. offense, but reaches +6 in 2 turns and has no problem wiping out entire stall teams. Status, one of stall’s best methods of dealing damage, is ineffective against manaphy, allowing it to sweep even more easily. I’m not trying to say manaphy is fantastic, since other weather types besides rain cripple it, scarf zekrom revenges it, and its stats aren’t the greatest, but its better than other pokemon in the C tier, like jynx, qwilfish and tornadus. Also, what prevents heatran from moving up to B? I’m not going to try to convince anyone it should be because I don’t use it much, I’m just curious.

Dec 23rd, 2012, 2:38:31 PM	#54
jackm Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 330 Seattle	Just saying that pretty much any common variant of Kyogre easily checks/counters that Manaphy; at +3, Manaphy can't even 2HKO Scarf Kyogre with Surf. In return, Thunder has a pretty good chance of KOing Manaphy. SDef Kyogre can just Roar Manaphy while laughing at even +6 Surf, Specs (fat or not) beats it with Thunder, and Mono-Attacker can actually set up on Manaphy with ease if they don't crit. I don't have a lot of experience with Manaphy to make a fully informed decision on this placement, but due to Kyogre's prevalence I think that it shouldn't be overlooked as a roadblock.

Dec 23rd, 2012, 5:11:01 PM	#55
Brave Bird spam Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 47	Manaphy commonly runs grass knot as a coverage move, in fact showdown doesn't even list rest as a viable move because so many people use grass knot instead. +3 252 SpA Manaphy Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 100.99 - 118.81% -- guaranteed OHKO CM manaphy can beat scarfogre if it CMs on the switch. It doesn't even come close to OHKOing CM manaphy at +1 sdef with thunder. 252+ SpA Kyogre Thunder vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 52.97 - 62.37% -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO Manaphy sets up on scarfogre with CM. Hell, specs kyoge doen't OHKO +1 CM manaphy with thunder. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 79.2 - 93.56% -- guaranteed 2HKO Manaphy can scald kyogre in return and fish for burn hax, though it can't set up on specsogre(but seriously, nothing can set up on specsogre). Manaphy isn't perfect, but it still isn't a c rank pokemon.

Dec 23rd, 2012, 9:22:11 PM	#56
jackm Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 330 Seattle	Incidentally, Rest is actually run more than twice as much as Grass Knot. While this doesn't invalidate your point (GK is used almost a third of the time) it does save Kyogre from being completely disregarded as a check/counter. After all, Ho-oh uses Earthquake more than Manaphy uses Grass Knot and yet Arceus-Rock is still considered a pretty steadfast counter even though it can be OHKOd by by Flame Charge+Earthquake in the sun.

Dec 24th, 2012, 1:43:34 AM	#58
Hugin Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 104	Now that Minimize is legal, Drifblim for D rank? It has some use on Baton Pass teams, but it's usually not too effective. That seems like a perfect fit for D.

Dec 25th, 2012, 6:09:07 PM	#59
Brave Bird spam Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 47	My point wasn't that all manaphy can beat all kyogre(sorry for any confusion), but that Grass knot manaphy OHKOes bulky kyogre after one turn of setup and that CM manaphy sets up on scarfogre, ruling out kyogre as a hard counter. @tehy: I understand what jackm was trying to say and I addressed that in my previous post... and grass knot is sorta rare but is isn't unheard of. Also, spamming rest as kyogre thunders is indeed a bad idea, but in theory manaphy can CM as specsogre switches in, then comfortably stay in the following turn and scald fishing for burn hax while surviving one thunder. If kyogre gets burned, great, if not, oh well, and manaphy can switch out the following turn. Then it can rest up later against something like support dialga, forretress, or one of the blobs.

Jan 19th, 2013, 12:19:26 PM	#61
ssbbm Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,001 Where you can play Pokemon with Singing Narwhals and Dancing Clouds	@ reshiram: yeah it really should be in b rank its not as bad as METAGROSS for goodness sake

Jan 20th, 2013, 11:29:06 AM	#68
Go10 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 774	Don't forget that the S rank is reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, which isn't the case at all with Groudon. He got a lot of check and some hard counter, there is no reason at all to put him in this rank. PS : if you counter, he can just SD again and laugh at you. Stop it, really. Also, I would like to propose Fightceus in the A rank. Despite the fact that he doesnt bring anything really usefull on the defensive side (grass can check both Ogre and Groudon, Steel check Dragon and got a powerful mono-stab, Ghost is ... broken and check everything), he got a powerful Stab in the form of Fighting Judgement which can 2HKO without Calm Mind a lot of thing. When you take at the 'Mons who can check him, they are very few. Darkrai (if he didn't used Dark Void, and you check it easily with thing like Sleep Talk Ogre, then he's a setup bait), Giratina (he can only phaze you, he's 2HKOed by Ice Beam if he miss Dragon tail, he's done), Giratina-O (who dont even have a recovery move), Ho-Oh, Lati@s and Mewtwo, Lugia (who's 2hkoed with SR, so he has to chose between phazing or toxic then die), Kyogre can phaze you, but if he isn't Specs, there is a high chance that you beat him; Deo-A and Ghostceus stop you cold too. A lot of them are easily checked by Stealth Rock, Rain, or the simple combinaison Jirachi + Kyogre. The fact that he is really difficult to stop him (which follow the description of this rank), has a very good Stab for the Uber metagame and can check the overcommon Dialga/EKceus, I think it deserve to be A rank and not B. Also, the fun fact is that he's the only Mindceus who can stomp Ferrothorn if he dare to show his face. __________________ RMT BW1 Uber - Unlimited Victory Works RMT BW2 Uber - Dark War

Jan 20th, 2013, 12:27:32 PM	#71
Hack He Must Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 140	He can phaze out E-killer twice with dragon tail and with SR damage added, Arceus will have lost 60 % of health in two sweeping attempts. And we are assuming it gets a free set-up here. And for the last time, Mono-Kyogre does not resemble even a remotely close counter to offensive Groudon. 252+ Atk Life Orb Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre: 200-238 (49.5 - 58.91%) -- 71.09% chance to 2HKO And about Giratina: +2 252+ Atk Groudon Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 272-320 (54.07 - 63.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO With a lum berry, Groudon gets past Giratina.

Jan 20th, 2013, 12:41:39 PM	#72
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus-Normal ExtremeSpeed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 186-219 (46.03 - 54.2%) -- 55.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 4 Atk Groudon Dragon Tail vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Normal: 53-63 (13.15 - 15.63%) -- possible 7HKO I'm not sure where you got that 60% from. Also, Ekiller will be getting a free setup as staying in to hit it as it SDs means that Groudon can't switch in directly and has to come in after a kill. He's a check at best. Didn't say he was a counter, I said he checks a majority of his sets. If you SD then just about any special attacker can revenge kill you while if you RP all those defensive counters I listed have no problem stopping your sweep. Edit: 50% what? You bring Groudon in on Ekiller as he SDs (12% lost to SR), phaze while losing half your HP (25% lost total), stuff happens and Ekiller comes in again (37% total lost) and SDs while finishing off Groudon with a second ESpeed. The only exception is if you consider low rolls and Groudon somehow not taking absolutely any damage before the second time EKiller comes in and DTail hits both times. Even then a 50% +2 Silk Scarf Ekiller has no problem sweeping the rest of your team if you had to resort to Groudon to check it. Last edited by Melee Mewtwo; Jan 20th, 2013 at 1:12:07 PM.

Jan 20th, 2013, 1:03:34 PM	#73
Hack He Must Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 140	Okay, I was wrong, about 50 % would be more accurate. Edit: Yeah it might kill the second time, but without LO it might not. Obviously, Groudon should not be the only way to handle E-killer on a team, but it should be the first resort to phaze it. Last edited by Hack He Must; Jan 22nd, 2013 at 5:16:16 AM.