Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[Novaray]

G-Von

[dragontamer74pe]

Originally Posted by Fat TyranitarAbuser

Just saying that there is a weakness to Starmie if we pick Melee Mewtwo's Skarmory

But we have celebi and starmie only has 100 base special attack. Ik he can spin but every time he comes in its momentum for us or a kill with hydriegon. Starmie only gets 4 moves so it can't have surf/hydro pump, thunderbolt/psychic/Psyshock, ice beam, recover, rapid spin.

[futuresuperstar]

Team 2 is also going to have some major problems with Raikou, as well. Especially one that goes with Aura Sphere. Not even a need for HP Ice, really, as HP Fire can take care of Scizor and Celebi and Aura Sphere can take care of Hydreigon. Hell, even Signal Beam. It resists Bullet Punch and pretty much outspeeds team 2 except for Keldeo, which certainly can't switch in, nor can it do much if Raikou uses Sub or has a CM boost or two.

Strange threat... but it's there.

[TyranitarAbuser]

I also don't know if you guys realized this, but team two relays heavily on the special side of things, Scizor (pretty much a dead weight IMO) being the only physical mon, with the possibility of Skarmory.

Team one, on the other hand, is perfectly balanced. Heracross, Mamoswine and Cube cover the physical side of things, while Landorus-I and Rotom cover the team in terms of special offense.

Edit: I forgot to say that Azelf with Fire Punch, Thunderbolt, U-turn and a filler move can also deal with Celebi and most of he mons on our team.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Originally Posted by Fat TyranitarAbuser

Just saying that there is a weakness to Starmie if we pick Melee Mewtwo's Skarmory

Team 1 is screwed by Starmie no matter who we pick at this point.

Calcs

---

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 164-195 (40.59 - 48.26%) -- 10.55% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 182-216 (45.04 - 53.46%) -- 92.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 111-131 (42.52 - 50.19%) -- 92.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 123-145 (47.12 - 55.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There's a light at the end of the tunnel, though. Celebii will need some prediction or scrapping but it'll make sure that Starmie never pulls off a sweep. Plus, Starmie is very weak to passive damage so once it hits that 50% mark Scizor can clean and Keldeo can revenge kill it. I suppose something like Recover might work but Starmie needs Pump, Bolt and Beam if he wants to sweep while giving up Spin will mean it will be even easier to wear down thanks to hazards. At the same time, this is only really levels the playing field a bit as Team 2 is packing a Hydreigon that is taking a kill every time he is in without even having to predict. (whereas Starmie has to choose between eliminating the threat in front of it or trying the hit the possible Celebii switch-in.)

[G-Von]

Thanks Novaray, I honestly did not expect to gain a vote!

But yea, regardless of who we picked for Team 2, Team 1 would have the ultimate advantage of picking the utmost perfect choice to kill/wear down all of Team 2. In the first CtP, how did that match go? I was around for the second installment of this thread, but I have never even seen a post bring up the inaugural Counter that Pokemon thread.

[dragontamer74pe]

I think it was deoxys-D who walled team 2 and set up all over them.

[ganj4lF]

Due to overwhelming majority, I'm closing votes early. Melee Mewtwo's Skarmory is the last member of Team 2. Now we're going to discuss Pokemon 6, Team 1, which will be our last discussion phase. Rules are always the same, I'm not repeating myself.

I'm going to PM some of you to hear who can / want to play the final match. The two "captains" will be revealed shortly, I guess. Stay tuned!

[The Great Mighty Doom]

Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Starmie is pretty self explanatory, it not only spins away Skarm's troublesome hazards, but it also OHKOs / 2HKOs the entirety of Team 2. It may seem strange that I'd give Starmie a Modest Nautre and make it so slow, but these EVs are designed to outspeed Hydreigon (fastest pokemon in Team 2 other than Keldeo, who will be faster than us anyway) by 1 point, this lets us pump a ton into bulk. There's not much else to say really, I'm considering Hidden Power [Bug] over Ice Beam though because it hits Celebi harder, but I decided against it because Ice Beam is a guarenteed 2HKO on Celebi and it easily OHKOs Hydreigon after a bit of residual damage, whereas HP Bug is still only a 2HKO on Celebi and we need much more residual damage on Hydreigon. Surf was chosen over Hydro Pump because Surf OHKOs both Heatran and Scizor, the only 2 pokemon we need a Water STAB for, so why risk the bad accuracy and low PP of Hydro Pump?

[alexwolf]

I thought that somewhere between the rules of the Counter that Pokemon project, there was a rule saying that only OU viable sets should be posted. And i am not sure if a Modest Starmie is what you would call a viable option, as i have never faced one, and is the worse choice (between Timid and Modest) 99% of the time.

[The Great Mighty Doom]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

I thought that somewhere between the rules of the Counter that Pokemon project, there was a rule saying that only OU viable sets should be posted. And i am not sure if a Modest Starmie is what you would call a viable option, as i have never faced one, and is the worse choice (between Timid and Modest) 99% of the time.

If you look in the rules section you'll see nothing about needing to post viable sets. But this set probably wouldn't break that rule even if it did exist, although you should never use Modest Starmie in OU, this set is still a perfectly standard moveset, item, etc, the only thing different about it is that the EVs and nature are tweaked to fit the current situation, it's not like I'm proposing something like Adamant CB Starmie with Hidden Power [Water] as its only move, lol xD

[alexwolf]

I think i remember this rule from the older CTP threads, as i checked in the rules and didn't see it in this one. It was also a logical rule to make, as no matter what the rules of the Project, we are still playing OU, and if we start using unviable OU Pokemon this project will stray from its purpose, which is to train its participants in finding creative ways to counter a Pokemon (of 'course only viable ways for the tier we are in), while taking the rest of the team into consideration.

And yeah i may be exaggerating a bit, but i still don't know if Modest Starmie is viable in OU. For example if you go and check its old analysis and the skeleton of the new one, you will see that the use of a Modest nature is not even mentioned in OO, suggesting it is not viable. Sure you CAN use it, but your Starmie will simply perform better with a Timid nature no matter how you see it.

[The Great Mighty Doom]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

I think i remember this rule from the older CTP threads, as i checked in the rules and didn't see it in this one. It was also a logical rule to make, as no matter what the rules of the Project, we are still playing OU, and if we start using unviable OU Pokemon this project will stray from its purpose, which is to train its participants in finding creative ways to counter a Pokemon (of 'course only viable ways for the tier we are in), while taking the rest of the team into consideration.

And yeah i may be exaggerating a bit, but i still don't know if Modest Starmie is viable in OU. For example if you go and check its old analysis and the skeleton of the new one, you will see that the use of a Modest nature is not even mentioned in OO, suggesting it is not viable. Sure you CAN use it, but your Starmie will simply perform better with a Timid nature no matter how you see it.

This really isn't something there should be an argument about, but wouldn't editing EVs and nature of a perfectly good pokemon in OU to counter the opposing team better count as "finding creative ways to counter Pokemon"? Either way, I said myself that Modest Starmie is bad in ou, it's definitely not viable whatsoever, I never argued against that fact. However, I think under these particular circumstances the Starmie would still be allowed, as it's a perfectly viable pokemon, with a perfectly viable moveset and item, the only thing different about it is the nature and EV spread, which, although, wouldn't usually be viable, in this particular circumstance it's used to improve the Pokemon's effectiveness and ability to counter the opposing Pokemon.

[alexwolf]

Man nobody is saying that your set is not viable against the opposing team, as it was made specifically to beat said team, and is the best Starmie set to use against this team. The point is that it is not viable in the OU meta (or maybe it isn't). It all depends in whether there is a rule saying that only OU viable sets should be posted or not.

[Melee Mewtwo]

There wasn't an official rule just a warning to players to not suggest stupid hand tailored niche crap just because it beats the current lineup. However, seeing as it's the last pick this isn't an issue as the other team doesn't have the chance to take advantage of an otherwise bad set. (which was the problem with bringing up stuff like Signal Beam Cress)

I'll post my thoughts on this eventually.

[alexwolf]

So, apparently, the rule actually exists, it was just lost over the course of time, as the project has been done many times. Here is the thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3469182

The 4th ground rule of the OP in essence states that only OU viable Pokemon are allowed. So i feel that this rule should be carried on in this project too...

[G-Von]

"4. Don't be ridiculous. Before you write out your set, think for a second: Would I ever run this set on my team other than to counter this specific Pokemon? Is this Pokemon so common and threatening that I must carry a specific, tailor-made counter to it? If yes to the first and no to the second, think of something else."

That's the quote from the forum. Personally I feel like there aren't many pokemon that need to be taken into consideration while teambuilding. Take Basculin or Azumarrill for example. Both pokemon are legitimate threats, but I doubt either one crosses the minds of team builders. I'll push the envelope later on with my suggestion since 1. I really like this pokemon, 2. I feel like this pokemon is under rated, and 3. it does some serious damage to all 6 of the opposing Team 2. I have class and have to warm up my car which explains why i do not have the time to post the Pokemon yet.

EDIT: It does have an OU analysis so that does merit the pokemon's selection. It's not like its something with only an NU analysis.

[Homeslice]

The Pokemon I would like to nominate is a Substitute Magnezone.

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Trait: Magnet Pull
EV's: 252 HP / 40 Sp Atk / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
-Substitute
-Thunderbolt
-Hidden Power Fire
-Charge Beam

The point of this set is to give more even more power to Kyurem-B. It can pretty effectively remove 2 of it's three biggest counters- Skarmory and Scizor. Magnezone can come in on Scizor and trap it, while taking relatively little damage from his attacks even after a +2, with bug bite only dealing a decent amount after the boost. Magnezone's speed EV's have been put to 216 as to outspeed Scizor by one, with the remaining EV's going into Special Attack. No more speed EV's are needed as even with them it would still not allow it to outspeed any other mon besides Skarmory and Scizor. While Skarmory does have a shed shell, it is single use, and Magnezone can take advantage of that by setting up a substitute or using a charge beam on whatever switches in to pretty reliably boost his Sp Atk. The biggest threat to him is Heatran, which should be easily taken down by Landorus, Mamoswine, Rotom-W, or even Heracross, provided it doesn't switch into a Fire Blast. While magnezone cannot trap Celebi, it also cannot do much besides T-Wave Magnezone, which shouldn't be a problem provided he is behind a Substitute. If Scizor and Skarmory have also both fainted, the Thunder Wave would only increase the chance of Magnezone not moving due to him not outspeeding anything else in the first place. Another pokemon Magnezone can reliably kill under favorable circumstances is Keldeo. Should Keldeo be locked into HP Ice, it can force the switch into another pokemon or simply set up using Charge Beam/Substitute. Should Magnezone do his job and pick off Scizor and Skarmory, it leaves the job of killing Heatran to 4 potential Pokemon on the team, which should be easily accomplished. This should then allow Kyurem-B to have an easily sweep if he sets up which he should easily be able to do.

Calcs:

...

---

(All Calcs done using the EV's/IV's found on each pokemon on the two teams)
HP Fire Against Scizor: 113.5% Minimum: Guaranteed OHKO
Thunderbolt Against Scizor: 57.8-68.3%: 2HKO
+1 Thunderbolt Against Scizor: 86.5-102%: 93.55% Chance of OHKO after SR
HP Fire Against Skarmory: 57.1-67.3%: 2HKO
Thunderbolt against Skarmory: 115.9% Minimum: Guaranteed OHKO
+1 HP Fire Against Celebi: 39.1-46%: Probable 3HKO even after SR due to Lefties/Giga Drain
Thunderbolt Against Keldeo: 98.8-116.1%: OHKO After SR, 94.22% Chance to OHKO w/o SR
Thunderbolt against Heatran: 42.6-50.3%: 2-3HKO
+1 Thunderbolt against Heatran: 63.9-75.3%: 2HKO
Scizor Bug Bite against Magnezone: 20-24%: 5HKO
Scizor +2 Bug Bite against Magnezone: 41-48%: 3HKO

[Remedy]

Well, as I said some comments ago, it's time to reveal the set that I believe crushes the whole team 2.
In fact, there is no running away from Volcarona, no matter what would be the last pokemon, and in my opinion Skarmory made it worse. Seems like everybody rushed the "put SR and wall to death the opposing pokemons" idea, and I'm pretty sure that was a bad shortcut. It totally ruined the possible creativity of the last round, I don't even want to wonder why a pokemon able to kill the whole opposing team and set haven't been pick. Oh, yes, because it can't wall more than one turn a pokemon that is outsped, OHKO'd, and anyway, unable to switch in.
It's also, from my point of view, pretty funny that at start people were criticizing some picks for being defensive, then later for not not being defensive. However, if you think about it one second, it's far more logical to build a strong defensive skeleton on the first steps of the project (basically because defensive pokemons bring more utility than offensive ones, spin, hazards, status etc.. thus can never be totally shut down and "countered", you can't contain their utility) and focus on the offensive side the last steps.
Whatever, it's not like I didn't whine enough already.
And I did not even tell yet about the nomination I was so proud of.


Here I go :



Volcarona @ Life Orb
Flame Body
252 SpA / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Fight]
- Giga Drain
- Quiver Dance

Okay, because you're probably tired to read my stuff let's stick to that :

If Volcarona is at 0 :

252SpAtk Life Orb Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 88HP/SpDef Scizor (Neutral): 456% - 539% (1384 - 1636 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

252SpAtk Life Orb Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/0SpDef Skarmory (Neutral): 230% - 271% (770 - 906 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

252SpAtk Life Orb Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Fire Blast vs 252HP/232SpDef Celebi (+SpDef): 103% - 123% (420 - 498 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.


Now at +1 :

252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 4HP/0SpDef Flash Fire Heatran (Neutral): 98% - 116% (318 - 376 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 89% chance to OHKO.

252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 4HP/0SpDef Levitate Hydreigon (Neutral): 112% - 131% (366 - 430 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Swarm Volcarona (+SAtk) Giga Drain vs 88HP/SpDef Keldeo (Neutral): 114% - 134% (394 - 464 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.


About Keldeo :

ye blabla Keldeo blabla outspeeds Volcarona blabla.. and ? :

252SpAtk Keldeo (Neutral) Hydro Pump vs 0HP/16SpDef +1 Volcarona (Neutral): 79% - 93% (246 - 290 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Not a single chance to KO it, and furthermore, not even a guaranteed KO after a LO recoil, Volcarona has far more chances to survive.

Now, it is ALL about assumptions.
Why would I even let my Volcarona on a Keldeo, if SR are not up (and they are not, because else my Volcarona is at +1) I can play around and let him sacrifice one pokemon each time I come in.
Let's tell you now, how Volcarona will sweep the whole opposing team.

The guy against you switches Skarmory in ? : GO
The guy against you switches Scizor in ? : GO
The guy against you has Celebi ? : SAC SOMETHING AND GO (who cares, you only need one pokemon to end a game)
The guy against you locked his Keldeo into SecretSword/HPIce ? : GO
The guy against you put Hydreigon ? : LET HIM DRACO METEOR THEN GO
The guy against you has Heatran ? : SAC/GO (the better thing would be to sac, you be sure but w/e, play safe with your auto-win pokemon)

It means that, the guy playing the team 2 can't :
- Draco Meteor and kill something with Hydreigon
- Throw Keldeo to revenge kill something without using a Water move (oh, Rotom-W, now you REALLY counter him, because if he gets you with Secret Sword, game's over)
- Play Scizor

Oh, what a surprise, with one offensive set-up pokemon, you totally crushed every single offensive option of the opposing team.

And for those who didn't understand, unboosted Volcarona kills half the team, and the remaining half gets killed at +1 (and dented hard even at 0 anyway).

However, this pokemon will probably not fit the team. I don't know why, and I'll never know I guess, but afterall what did matter is that I did researchs and tried to improve myself in this project, and I thank the creator for that. Still, in the end, I feel like.. tired to try to be honest. I should maybe change my name for something fancier, I don't know.


PS : Am I missing something or Starmie just fails to 2HKO Celebi and gets almost killed by Giga Drain, so Celebi does not even need to Recover ?

[futuresuperstar]

Raikou @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd
Rash Nature
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Aura Sphere
- Signal Beam

Updated to Signal Beam!

Welp... this pretty much destroys Team 2. Completely. The only thing that can out-speed it is Keldeo. Otherwise, it's good game. I prefer this to Starmie only because of the ability to set up a single Calm Mind and proceed to sweep through Team 2 without issue. Thunderbolt is super-effective against Skarmory and Keldeo and STAB, Aura Sphere is super-effective against Hydreigon and Heatran, and Hidden Power Bug is for Celebi. For the EVs, max special attack for power and the given speed EVs out-speed Hydreigon, while the rest is pumped into bulk.

Here's some calculations...

Vs. Heatran
252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 247-291 (76.23 - 89.81%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 367-432 (113.27 - 133.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs. Keldeo
252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 445-525 (137.77 - 162.53%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs. Celebi
252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 291-348 (72.02 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Hidden Power Bug vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Celebi: 442-520 (109.4 - 128.71%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs. Hydreigon
252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 281-333 (86.46 - 102.46%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 421-497 (129.53 - 152.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs. Scizor
252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 243-289 (80.19 - 95.37%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 367-433 (121.12 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Vs. Skarmory
252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 242-286 (70.55 - 83.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 364-429 (106.12 - 125.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Guaranteed OHKOs the entire team after a single Calm Mind, and still can potentially sweep a weakened team without a boost. Now, let's take a look at what can stop the sweep--Scizor's Bullet Punch and Keldeo's Scarf.

Keldeo vs. Raikou
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 136 HP / 0- SpD Raikou: 217-256 (61.12 - 72.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. +1 (Calm Mind) 136 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 177-208 (49.85 - 58.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even if Raikou switches into Stealth Rock and takes a round of Life Orb damage killing something (22.5% damage total), Hydro Pump still cannot OHKO, and Raikou can kill it as it dies to a second round of Life Orb damage. That means that Keldeo can't come in and just revenge kill it until Raikou takes two rounds of Life Orb damage--in other words, after it already kills two things, most likely.

More importantly, if Keldeo comes in after Raikou gets a single Calm Mind, Secret Sword does a maximum of 58.59% damage, meaning that a relatively healthy Raikou will take it down no problem.

What's scarier, this is all with a Raikou with a -SDef nature!!! We have to use Rash, though, because of Aura Sphere.

Scizor vs. Raikou
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 68-81 (19.15 - 22.81%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 136-161 (38.3 - 45.35%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Not much threat here. Raikou has to be on its last legs before Scizor can come in and try to end its sweep. Raikou can even shrug off a boosted Bullet Punch without much worry should a Scizor try to survive a Thunderbolt and Swords Dance.

[blitzlefan]

Hmmm... I think that just running a tailored EV and nature set shouldn't automatically disqualify The Great Mighty Doom's Starmie. It's not exceedingly radical, as its moveset and item are standard, and though Modest Starmie normally wouldn't be used in a competitive scenario (obviously Timid would) it wouldn't necessarily stifle creativity (which is the purpose of this thread) as you said. We could just as well run the exact same set but with Timid 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 4 Spe, which is the Standard set on the analysis, but what would be the point? We'd just be wasting bulk while still outrunning/being outsped by the same threats. Starmie does deal with Team 2 fairly well, and finding this solution was the point of this project, I think. Furthermore, shifting to Modest 136 HP / 252 SAtk / 120 Spd will increase our advantage over Team 2 while still engaging in good teambuilding.

Magnezone: traps Scizor and deals with it well, but as Skarmory has Shed Shell and Heatran will reliably beat Magnezone, after Scizor is gone then Magnezone is essentially dead weight, as it's obviously not going to be sweeping any time soon. (Correct me if I'm wrong though.)

Volcarona: I like this too, but the big Stealth Rock weakness while not having a spinner means it's not going to be switching in/out very much. Also, HP Fighting does seem a little unorthodox, but I'm going to abstain further comments as I haven't used Volcarona since mid-late BW1.

Raikou: I've never used it, so no real commentary, but perhaps Signal Beam > Hidden Power Bug, as it has 75BP as opposed to 70 BP and a small 10% chance to confuse.

[futuresuperstar]

I didn't realize Raikou got Signal Beam since Smogon's moves don't contain it. My bad! Will change to Signal Beam. Which makes Raikou even scarier.

[Lord Dakoth]

Originally Posted by Fat futuresuperstar

What's scarier, this is all with a Raikou with a -SDef nature!!! We have to use Rash, though, because of Aura Sphere.

You could use Modest. Aura Sphere is special.

[Sharpteeth]

Aura Sphere comes from an event that has a fixed nature of Rash.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord Dakoth

You could use Modest. Aura Sphere is special.

Aurora Sphere Raikou was an event pokemon that was distributed with a Rash nature only.

Ninja'd by Sharpteeth