(Gen 2) GSC UU?

[.Maguss.]

Originally Posted by Fat Jorgen

Honestly if UU were to be balanced I'd support adding things rather than subtracting more. We already have 20+ "BL" Pokemon ffs, enough to make a metagame on their own (that nobody would ever play because BL was never really meant to be a tier).

I agree with that, specially considering some Pokémon will never be used due if we're going to tiering BLs that way, like Ursaring, Tauros and Kingdra.

[Mr.E]

Originally Posted by Fat gene

lol what the hell are nidoqueen and jumpluff doing in uu

Jumpluff used to be OU but Hip dropped it when he futzed with the old-gen tiers for no particular reason a couple years ago.

Originally Posted by Fat Jorgen

I'd hesitate to call Nidoqueen all that overpowering. It's a good mon, of course, but certainly beatable if you take time to prepare for it when teambuilding. If anything it's just disappointing that it's basically a facet of OU cp'd into UU, which imo isn't really enough of a reason to keep something out of UU.

If anything it's just disappointing that it's basically a facet of OU cp'd into UU, which imo isn't really enough of a reason to keep something out of UU.

It is if your reason for playing UU is to avoid seeing the same OU shit all day, which is basically how current-gen UU operates on this site. The precedent, as far as the Nidos are concerned, is that they are treated separately (different tiers in DPP and BW2) but I can understand why people wouldn't want Nidoqueen in UU.

Just because something is OU doesn't mean UU can't beat it anyway, I mean that much is obvious if you just substitute Nidoking for Nidoqueen. ;[ What does Nidoking do that Nidoqueen doesn't, outspeed Gyarados? Do an extra 3% to "average defender?" They have identical typing, virtually identical movesets, and only very minor stat differences. Anything that can handle Nidoqueen will be able to handle Nidoking and vice-versa. The only reason Nidoqueen is UU is because it's basically Nidoking that doesn't speed tie with Suicune and nobody is using both of them. It's not like each tier is a static power level where all OUs are created equal and all of them are definitively better than everything in UU.

[Nyara]

Like Mr.E said, the both Nidos are virtually identical. (Revelant things on bold)

Nidoking had 7,1% more of Physical Attack and 7,4% more of Special Attack.

Nidoking speed tie with; Aipom, Articuno, Girafarig, Gligar, Golduck, Heracross, Kingdra, Ledian, Misdreavus, another Nidoking, Pinsir, Qwilfish, Stantler, and Suicune, and outspeed; Gyarados, Arbok, Dragonite, Kabutops, Meganium, Venusaur, Blastoise, Feraligatr, and doesn't speed tie with a Nidoqueen or Hitmonchan.

By other hand, Nidoqueen had 7,4% more of Physical and Special defense + 4% of HP. Nidoqueen heals 1 point more of HP with Leafovers per turn (both are really near to heal 1+), and Nidoqueen can't create 101 HP substitutes or something like that.

About it's movesets, Nidoking had; Thrash, Horn Attack, Confusion, Fury Attack, Amnesia, Disable, Leer, Morning Sun, while Nidoqueen had; Bite, Scratch, Tackle, Double Kick, Fury Swipes, Charm, Growl, Moonlight, Tail Whip.

That's is all the difference, Nidoqueen actually had the incredible and interesting move Charm, so, it allows her to check Curse users and counter the ones without Earthquake and force switches, while Nidoking can use Disable if someone really wants, the recover moves are not so much used, and Amnesia Nidoking is not really effective at all. Maybe the unique revelant thing is the Nidoking's speed, as it leave him able to at least speed tie more threats, and outspeed some important Pokémon who could otherwise make him too much damage or take advantage of a free or easy switch, but that's pretty much all.

Also, the possible discussion is if Nidoqueen should be BL or not, and if down a BL or two could be a good idea or not.

[Borat]

All those things you mentioned doesn't stop one thing from being true: Nidoking is better than Nidoqueen. And that's what matters. Why would anyone ever use Nidoqueen over Nidoking? To tank? Yeah, no.

Nidoqueen is perfectly fine for UU. It's not killing anything. Dynamics of UU are different, grounds aren't as good without Zapdos/Raikou. Zapdos/Raikou are the major reason to run grounds in the first place in OU. Different settings. Come on Mr.E, you can theorycraft better than that.

[Nyara]

Originally Posted by Fat Borat

All those things you mentioned doesn't stop one thing from being true: Nidoking is better than Nidoqueen. And that's what matters. Why would anyone ever use Nidoqueen over Nidoking? To tank? Yeah, no.

Nidoqueen is perfectly fine for UU. It's not killing anything. Dynamics of UU are different, grounds aren't as good without Zapdos/Raikou. Zapdos/Raikou are the major reason to run grounds in the first place in OU. Different settings. Come on Mr.E, you can theorycraft better than that.

Taking in account Nidoking barely hits a K.O that Nidoqueen doesn't (and the difference of damage output without super effective is really minimal, 1-2%+ most of the time), the unique important difference is the speed; for UU, Nidoking outspeeding or tie with practically everything who can do something against him, while Nidoqueen doesn't. But on OU, it doesn't really mather as the unique important outspeed/tie is the one with Suicune, and even then, Nidoking shouldn't never stay against a Suicune at all, and Nidoqueen takes hits somewhat better and can run Charm, but even then, yes, Nidoking is better for outspeed more things, and that's what mark the difference of tier.

About the UU's tier itself, I at least din't had troubles running against Nidoqueen, and I just had huge troubles at dealing against Kingdra and Slowbro, but Kingdra was moved to BL. About Slowbro... I think he's a huge threat to say at least, as you need of a Electric to properly handle him or mantain at high health and free of paralysis your hard hitters, and that's really hard to do, and with Kingdra's move to BL, now ground buddies like Nidoqueen are more than ready to cover Slowbro with a smile, grass budies just din't work at all as Giga Drain barely damage enough, and Ice Beam hits them really hard.

[Borat]

I don't really get your point. Nidoking is better; it doesn't matter what it comes down to, he just is. In no facet of the game does Nidoqueen excel in that Nidoking can't do better. Even defensively, I'd argue that the speed/extra damage alone makes Nidoking last longer during battles more than the defense/spec def/HP can ever hope to make up. If you can force a switch, that's far better than taking a hit.

[Crystal_]

I don't think Nidoqueen is broken either. It's probably the best go-to mixed sweeper in UU, but still, I think that if there's a Pokemon that might need to be banned to an extent is Slowbro.

In the last UU tournament I played in Mount Silver I won all four uu macthes (although two I think with the help of some relevant luck) with basically the same team: Nidoqueen, Granbull, Victreebel (HP Ground), Magneton, Toed (Vap set) and a filler (like another sweeper or spikes). Between politoed and granbull I generally had enough nidoqueen coverage. Slowbro doesn't actually do very well as a nido/magmar check, since it's 3hkoed by tbolt/tpunch (also i must say, when i used slowbro I tried a resttalk set with twave surf; it loses se against victreebel but gets better defensive coverage against most things. But actually, the main reason I used Toed was probably Slowbro (toed is only 5hkoed by psychic), since slowbro can be damn annoying with twave as you all know (slowbro is also the main reason I can't avoid running Bell on every team).

Ultimately though, I think I didn't like Politoed much, since Sleep Talk pp go down very quickly, and it can be set up bait for some stuff, notably victreebell. Toed did what it was meant to anyway, I never expected it to be better than average and toed never really swept anything.

iirc the biggest problem I ran into was electric-types (ampharos, buzz), especially with spikes supprt, since all i had for them was basically nidoqueen. Another big issue was HP ground Victreebel/Dodrio. A pokemon like magneton is basically a must though, since otherwise shit like curseresttalk wigglytuff sweeps you in seconds, and even granbull alone becomes impossible to deal with. Magneton's Thunder hits hard, I must say.

And that's all, I like the UU tier as it is now. Even if Nidoqueen is "almost as good as Nidoking" in OU there's still no reason to use it over nidoking anyway...

[jaQ]

I think he's just saying that even though king is always superior to queen, king is better by such a tiny margin that queen should be treated with as much respect as king, especially considering UU has even less pokemon to counter nidoking/queen with. I don't think nidoqueen is overpowered though.

From what I remember UU was a lot faster paced and had a lot more things running curse/swords dance sets without the fear of skarm showing up to wall. This made UU bland and it never took any tough planning to win. Things like ursaring/kangaskhan/victreebel were very dangerous. Some people even considered drumfable UU which felt like a bad joke. I always felt that skarmory should be included in UU only battles because he itself poses no threat other than stalling a lot of sweepers.

UU could've been better if someone took the time to make a list of pokemon too strong for UU instead of it being just a restriction on all OU pokemon. For example, things like snorlax and raikou would be obviously banned, while pokemon like suicune, steelix, skarmory, and forretress allowed.

[Crystal_]

From what I remember UU was a lot faster paced and had a lot more things running curse/swords dance sets without the fear of skarm showing up to wall. This made UU bland and it never took any tough planning to win. Things like ursaring/kangaskhan/victreebel were very dangerous. Some people even considered drumfable UU which felt like a bad joke. I always felt that skarmory should be included in UU only battles because he itself poses no threat other than stalling a lot of sweepers.

Both Ursaring and Kangaskhan are banned from UU. I guess in the past when you last played it there was no BL tier but now there are over 20 non-OU Pokemon banned from UU, placed in the UU ban tier (BL).

UU could've been better if someone took the time to make a list of pokemon too strong for UU instead of it being just a restriction on all OU pokemon. For example, things like snorlax and raikou would be obviously banned, while pokemon like suicune, steelix, skarmory, and forretress allowed.

Banning just four or five OU Pokemon and making a metagame from that is not really the point of UU, because, to begin with, Skarmory and Suicune are not really "underused", and UU shouldn't look any similar to OU at all. But again, I think you are pointing this out not knowing that a BL tier exists and that the overpowered pokemon (over 20 in total) like Ursaring and Kangaskhan have been placed there to balance the UU metagame.

[Borat]

while pokemon like suicune, steelix, skarmory, and forretress allowed.

[jaQ]

Makes sense. When I played people weren't that picky and BL pokemon on UU was pretty normal. I can see that this would be a problem for tournies.

I guess there will always be at least one pokemon that stands out no matter how many you try to eliminate. Looks like the go to pokemon is victreebel at maybe swords dance, giga drain, synthesis, sludgebomb. parasupport would make this thing scary.

also phazers seem pretty limited with golem, venusaur and donphan in bl. looks like blastoise would be the best with reflect roar stab and rest.

am I still far off the page?

and lol at jumpluff in UU.

[Nyara]

Jumpluff should be NU... but it can really be annoying (he does even look at you with a trollish-face), I guess that's just enough to bump it to viable on UU.

[Crystal_]

I personally haven't run that Vict set for a long time, since most people prepare for it and everybody uses Magneton! I think hp ground over sleep powder is now the standard set (as long as we can call something standard in GSC UU lol).

If someone is wondering how the NU tier was made, it was basically few people like Jorgen, M Dragon and me "blind" voting, and the pokemon with 50% or less than 50% of the votes remained UU; so it was pretty much made arbitrarily. NU seemed fine though, except for Mr. Mime's possible brokenness (in the end everybody ran resttalk mr.mime mostly to wall the more creative mr.mime sets so I guess that speaks for itself; Mr.Mime was a bit like UU Kingdra since basically nothing was able to switch into it AND actually force it out). M Dragon also made a case for Pikachu needing to be banned from NU, but I personally didn't find it overpowered (only M Dragon did AFAIR), at least as long as Mr. Mime stays NU.

[.Maguss.]

Mr.Mime is not only OP for NU (considering that NU tier), but also a decent choice for a UU team if you're trying to being creative. Mime's movepool is pretty good.