Pokemon of the Week #16: Latias

[Princess Bri]

The Pokemon of the Week is changing later today. Submit any final thoughts about Ninetales.

[PK Gaming]

Ninetales is bad with a side order of horrible

Ninetales doesn't do much aside from setting up the sun and burning stuff with WoW. Tyranitar/Hippowdown & Politoed contribute in their own way, unlike sun which feels like you're using 5 Pokemon. I've jumped from set to set, but I haven't landed on a "best" set. I think offensive sets are generally a bad idea since you want to keep it alive for as long as possible. I usually run SpD on my Ninetales, but sometimes I run physical defense to check phys attackers a bit better.

Can we do Breloom next e_e

[BlankZero]

I wish we had gotten something besides Ninetales as Sun's Weather Setter. Hopefully Gamefreak gives Sun, Rain, and Hail a second inducer in Gen 6.

Lol, just kidding. Fuck Rain.

As far as Ninetales goes, it's not a bad Defensive Mon, but OU is no longer a game for Stall anymore.

[Yggdrasill00]

Other then getting up sun I haven't found Ninetales useful. I never used Ninetales myself but every Sun Team I've gone up against their Ninetales never KO'd or even threaten my teammates. Usually it just sets sun and dies. Politoed and Tyranitar on the other hand can hold their own and threaten several Pokemon on a team. Other then permasun Ninetales is just deadweight to a OU team.

[Nantsuki.]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

Ninetales is bad with a side order of horrible

Ninetales doesn't do much aside from setting up the sun and burning stuff with WoW. Tyranitar/Hippowdown & Politoed contribute in their own way, unlike sun which feels like you're using 5 Pokemon. I've jumped from set to set, but I haven't landed on a "best" set. I think offensive sets are generally a bad idea since you want to keep it alive for as long as possible. I usually run SpD on my Ninetales, but sometimes I run physical defense to check phys attackers a bit better.

Can we do Breloom next e_e

I Agree !!

[Queen of Randoms]

Ninetales is a liability, end of story. The best set is the Sunny Day set because you just desperately need your weather up. Purely offensive sets, especially Substitute and Nasty Plot ones, are utter shit - like irredeemably bad; stop using them. All you want to do is try to Burn things, keep sun up, and kill the opposing weather inducer if you can manage it. You won't sweep, you won't take hits very well, you need to take advantage of the decent speed and do what you can to keep the poor fox alive.

I miss her in NU btw ;_;

[Onicon]

Harsh word here. Anyway, as far as we would like to bash it as extensive as you do, we cannot speak of it as badly as you do (probably because we are stupid foreigners who weight our words a bit different).
We have found a specially defensive pseudo-shuffler-staller-thingy the best it can manage to pull of in OU. Thanks to its extensive support movepool it can keep most slower Pokemon at bay. Sub-Disable it had to be, as unfortunate it is with its SR weakness; it also makes most confrontations with Tyranitar and Politoed MUCH less frustrating as they usually cannot break its subs with their super effective move locked, besides, they reduce the amount of times you have to switch, which is definitely appreciated. Attacking options are pretty much close to useless, so we end up replaing the last slot with Sunny Day.
We also find the major nuisances not to be the opposing weather inducers, but Heatran who can put up SR for free because it checks Espeon in sun, and CM-Latias who comes in almost unpunished and sets up on you. And there is Alakazam when you don't have an attacking option or Roar like us.

For most of the part it feels like it don't belong to this tier. We would rather use it in the lower tiers, but since it is "blessed" with the honour of receiving Drought while receiving the end of the stick in typing (opposed to Politoed with quasi the same BST but Water typing), we have to stick with it in a tier that is far too offensive for it - both literally and figuratively.

[Trinitrotoluene]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

Ninetales is bad with a side order of horrible

Ninetales doesn't do much aside from setting up the sun and burning stuff with WoW. Tyranitar/Hippowdown & Politoed contribute in their own way, unlike sun which feels like you're using 5 Pokemon. I've jumped from set to set, but I haven't landed on a "best" set. I think offensive sets are generally a bad idea since you want to keep it alive for as long as possible. I usually run SpD on my Ninetales, but sometimes I run physical defense to check phys attackers a bit better.

Can we do Breloom next e_e

Breloom was the first Pokemon of the week. Anyways, I've found a decent amount of success in using a defensive Ninetales. This lets it act as a decent pivot for the rest of its team, setting up sweep opportunities for the rest of its team and stuff. I don't have much else to say; Ninetales is indeed bad, and Drought should have been given to Arcanine, who actually has a decent movepool and BST.

[Hugin]

Literally anything would be better than Ninetales. Arcanine is way too good, but sticking to 500-or-less BST(same as Toed), Rapidash could sweep. Houndoom would be a Pursuit-trapping beast. Darmanitan...yeah, replace Zen Mode please. Even Torkoal would be an SR-neutral spinner, huge for a fire-heavy sun team.

[Ninetale3]

Originally Posted by Fat Hugin

Literally anything would be better than Ninetales.

I don't believe there wouldn't be a better candidate than ninetales honestly. Rapidash is to frail and would not be able to switch in. Houndoom has a fighting weakness opposing weather inducers can take advantage of. Darmanitan same reasons as rapidash only with more firepower. Torkoal would have the unfortunate problem of being weak to politoed.

The way I see it. Ninetales would be the only fire type flexible enough to be a weather inducer. Some could argue arcanine but honestly. Arcanines defensive sets are garbage in ou.

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat Ninetale3

I don't believe there wouldn't be a better candidate than ninetales honestly. Rapidash is to frail and would not be able to switch in. Houndoom has a fighting weakness opposing weather inducers can take advantage of. Darmanitan same reasons as rapidash only with more firepower. Torkoal would have the unfortunate problem of being weak to politoed.

The way I see it. Ninetales would be the only fire type flexible enough to be a weather inducer. Some could argue arcanine but honestly. Arcanines defensive sets are garbage in ou.

I'll agree about Arcanine's defensive sets, seeing as its abilities were what made them useful.

Other than that, no, basically anything is better than Ninetales. Offensively, Arcanine has coverage in Close Combat and Wild Charge, so other weather inducers can hardly switch in like they do on Ninetales. It has recovery in Morning Sun, which is quite reliable when you set up sun while switching in. Other stuff like Magmortar also outclass it offensively, and I would definetly use Houndoom over Ninetales for that Dark STAB.

Defensively, I'd use Heatran in a second if it got Drought, but imo even Torkoal would be better at this than Ninetales, seeing as its bulky and can Rapid Spin, which is more than Ninetales can say.

And yeah, Torkoal would be weak to Politoed. Any Fire type is going to be weak to DrizzleToad.

[Ninetale3]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

Torkoal would be weak to Politoed. Any Fire type is going to be weak to DrizzleToad.

Okay didn't know torkoal was pure fire when I put it down. Regardless torkoal would end up having to play defensive and is also hurt as it is out sped by Any whether inducer and even walls, making torkoal switch out more than ninetales would since ninetales can at least out speed walls and setup subs.

When I talk about flexibility, I mean how easy it is to put on different team styles. Ninetales does get outclassed when compared to other fire types. The problem with others is they can't be fitted to more than one play style that there stats are tailored for.

[Queen of Randoms]

Torkoal is not SR neutral, and if you think he's usable in OU you probably have never used him. When you take 25% on switch in and are fire type suddenly that bulk is pretty underwhelming. Ninetales is much better due to her speed allowing her to try to Solarbeam when she predicts Ttar or Toed and Sunny Days on their entry as well as being a fast Will-O-Wisp. And when would you Rapid Spin with Ninetales if she had it? Never. Torkoal would not get the opportunity ever because there's always something more important to do, and if there isn't, why are you staying in? It's job is sun, not spinning. Unnecessary risk and waste of a moveslot with Rapid Spin.

Houndoom is meh. He is, like Ninetales, a liability. You don't want him staying in and fighting, probably taking Life Orb damage or something while you try to use a Pokémon that struggles offensively in UU. I'd take the slightly better speed and bulk Ninetales offers. Sucker Punch is kinda neat though, but I still assert the best Drought inducer set follows the Sunny Day set and Ninetales does that marginally better.

Arcanine offers the most competition thanks to his BST and movepool. He'd be a neat inducer.

Ninetales is bad, but we honestly could've had much worse.

[AJC]

arcanine would be the best alternate drought mon after heatran since it actually has the stats and moves to actually be good even outside of sun in OU 90/80/80 is pretty acceptable bulk for OU and 110/100/95 atk/sp.atk/speed for offensive stats is quite usable too

[Queen of Randoms]

While we're on the topic of giving random fire Pokemon Drought, the best one would be Infernape, lol. U-turning, SR neutral, STAB CC using, Pursuit resisting Drought inducer with passable attacking stats on both sides, SR, Taunt, a movepool out the wazoo, and even Recovery (lolol).

So like let's just talk about Ninetales instead of what you want to replace it with. :x

[Princess Bri]

I could have sworn I posted the Pokemon of the Week.. I just wrote it up in Microsoft Word but I forgot to post it.. -sigh-

Sorry about that. Because of this, it's a double Pokemon of the Week! We'll be looking at Kyurem and Kyurem-B.

and


Kyurem & Kyurem-B
Gray = Kyurem only and Brown = Kyurem-B only

Type: Dragon / Ice
Base Stats: 125 HP / 130 Atk / 90 Def / 130 SpA / 90 SpD / 95 Spe
Base Stats: 125 HP / 170 Atk / 100 Def / 120 SpA / 90 SpD / 95 Spe
Abilities: Pressure
Abilities: Teravolt

Notable Moves:
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Hone Claws
- Dragon Tail
- Focus Blast
- Roost

With the release of BW came the release of Kyurem-B, Kyurem's new forme. Although it was Uber originally, suspect testing determined that it is OU material. With its huge 170 base attack, great 120 base special attack, and great bulky couple with Roost, it is definitely a great Pokemon. Kyurem is no slouch either. Its ability, Pressure, allows it to SubRoost stall better than Kyurem-B, but Kyurem-B has Teravolt. Kyurem has lost a lot of luster due to Kyurem-B's unbanning, but is it worse?

Discuss!

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Kyurem is definitively not worse, because it has advantages over Kyurem-B. First, its higher Special Attack means that Kyurem's pure special attacker sets outclasses those of Kyurem-B. Second, Kyurem has Pressure, which is a valuable ability that combined with its bulk and great resistances to Water, Electric, and Grass, let it pull off an excellent SubRoost set:


Kyurem @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 220 SAtk / 236 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Roost
- Ice Beam / Dragon Pulse
- Earth Power

This set functions by stalling out the opponent's PP without losing that much health. Kyurem's combination of bulk, power, and speed means that it can stall out the opponent's HP until it is put at KO range of its STAB or coverage move.

Substitute and Roost are there for obvious reasons. For the STAB move, Ice Beam is the recommended option because it has superior super-effective coverage, especially considering that it hits Ground-, Grass-, and Flying-types super-effectively, something that its Dragon STAB cannot do. This lets Kyurem destroy some balanced teams like balanced sand teams. Dragon Pulse is viable because it has amazing neutral coverage, and hits the Water-, Ice-, and Fire-types that resist Ice Beam. However, Earth Power can deal with the latter, and Dragon Pulse sadly still misses out Steel-types.

The last moveslot cover Steel-types, Earth Power is the recommended option because unlike Hidden Power Fire, it is not nerfed by rain (and it does not misses out Heatran; this Kyurem cares more about being able to hit the most things possible, than hitting certain things harder), and unlike Focus Blast, it has higher PP and accuracy. Also, Skarmory can be defeated by Ice Beam, and the Pokémon that resist the Ice + Ground combination are Rotom-W, which can be dealed by PP stalling and by taking it out with repeated Ice Beams, and blocking its Pain Split with Substitute. The other is Bronzong, which is a rare threat on OU. Also, if you are not using Dragon Pulse, Earth Power hits Water-types neutrally and has a chance to lowering their Special Defense.

This set excels on hail, as the hail damage slowy kills your opponent as it is stalled out. This means that your opponent will need a faster Pokémon with a super-effective attack or a Pokémon with a super-effective priority attack to defeat Kyurem. However, this Kyurem is also effective, for example, on rain stall teams. Just remember that outside hail, Kyurem will need Toxic Spikes support. This can be provided by Pokémon like Tentacruel, which has amazing synergy with Kyurem, resisting Steel- and Fighting-type attacks to which Kyurem is weak. It can also get rid of Stealth Rock, something that reduces Kyurem's effectiveness.

This is my favorite Kyurem set and I've been using it on a semi-stall rain team, and it is amazing because it can stall out AND hit hard. It can even defeat the pink blobs by stalling them out or having good luck with Earth Power's SpD drops, although variants with Heal Bell or Aromatherapy are harder to deal with.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

Kyurem is definitively not worse, because it has advantages over Kyurem-B. First, its higher Special Attack means that Kyurem's pure special attacker sets outclasses those of Kyurem-B. Second, Kyurem has Pressure, which is a valuable ability that combined with its bulk and great resistances to Water, Electric, and Grass, let it pull off an excellent SubRoost set

You're trading 10 points of SA for 10 points of defense and swapping Pressure for Teravolt. Not to mention the ability to go mixed, throwing uninvested physical hits like a max-atk Mence. Now, Pressure might be better for a staller(though uninvested DTail has it's appeal), but on a sweeper, Teravolt is well worth 10 points of SAtk.

[Onicon]

YES!


Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 20 Atk / 252 SAtk / 236 Spd
Mild Nature
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Substitute

This one is able to check most things slower than itself, and once it gets its sub up, anything not named Gastrodon is going to die.
While the SAtk of Kyurem-B is a bit lower than that of Kyurem, it has enough to land at lot of critical KOs. With LO, even Jirachi gets OHKOed by Earth Power. Fusion Bolt just wrecks Water. A notable trait is that it is able to check Keldeo comfortably as this one is OHKOed after SR damage. Teravolt allows it you one-shot Gengar and not-so-bulky Rotom-W (bulky rotom after SR), as well as the rare Donphan.
What item you use boild down to your ability to manage hazards. The LO Kyubey only need SR to function, while the Expert Belt one needs at least an additional layer of spikes. This is very important because you need to finish off Terrakion with one hit, otherwise you will loose momentum and it will be able to hit someone.
You will get your substitute up against defensive mons like Jellicent, Celebi, Tentacruel, and the sencond most used mon, Politoed. That is very much a requirement for this set because faster things (with the expection of Starmie) check. Therefore this set fares best with another weather inducer, most notably Ninetales. As shitty as it is, it checks Scizors and attracts Politoed as if there was no tomorrow. Hail may also be considered as mit makes a lot of shaky hit safer, especially when you play EB and haven't managed to get your Spikes down. A 2HKO with Blizzard against Ferrothorn after entry hazards is also neat. Forretress, too, can be used under both weather conditions (Overcoat), draws Tentacruel and Jellicent while it escapes with VoltTurn.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Hugin

You're trading 10 points of SA for 10 points of defense and swapping Pressure for Teravolt. Not to mention the ability to go mixed, throwing uninvested physical hits like a max-atk Mence. Now, Pressure might be better for a staller(though uninvested DTail has it's appeal), but on a sweeper, Teravolt is well worth 10 points of SAtk.

That's why I said: Pure special attacking sets. Mixed or pure physical sets are obviously better done by Kyurem-B. Also, 10 extra points on Defense hardly make an difference, and Teravolt is really only useful for hitting Bronzong and Rotom-W with Earth Power; as Lati@s and Hydreigon are weak to Ice Beam anyway, and Gengar is too frail to survive an Ice Beam.

Though really, Kyurem is too hard to justify over Kyurem-B if you aren't using a more stalling-oriented set.

[mcdanger]

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 52 HP / 204 Atk / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Speed)
- Fusion Bolt
- Dragon Claw
- Substitute/Earth Power
- Roost

This set fuctions best on a sun team because of his resistance to most rain sweepers, namely politoed. This set also helps facing sun teams as venusaur cant do a lot of damage to kyurem with hp fire, iirc its around 30%, while kyurem threatens it back with dragon claw.
Fusion bolt and dragon claw are teh main attack moves of this set. Fusion bolt is mostly for politoed and tentacruel because as I said, this team works best on a rain team. Dragon claw is for stab and for what fusion bolt doesnt hit for super effective damage.
Substitute is so when he forces a switch, the can get the sub and threaten to take down or cripple a few pokemon. The sub really helped when tornadus was OU as it forced it out, or if the person was stupid, KO it cause they would break the sub. Same for keldeo. Earth power is another option as jirachi, heatran, and ferrothorn force the set out, as well as focus blast to hit ferrothorn harder. Roost rounds of the set for longevity. Roost is arguable the most important move to the set as it lets kyurem keep coming back and wall threats.
Careful can be used over sassy with sub instead of earth power and for the 20 more speed, as well as a chople/babiri berry over the leftovers but lefties is usually superior

[Anikrahman1995]

My favorite set is this:
Kyurem @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 228 SAtk / 224 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Substitute

It is basically the same set that Dark Fallen Angel posted with some changes. The first of which is the timid nature, letting it outrun the 90-99 base speed group who never run a speed-boosting nature themselves(except Deoxys-D). The speed EVs allow it to outspeed max speed Landorus-T and kill it before it uses Rock Polish / Swords Dance. The 4 extra HP EVs allow it to make 4 substitutes. Life Orb is used here to obtain, otherwise impossible, OHKO and 2HKOs such as the 2HKO against against specially defensive Jirachi, standard Ferrothorn, Calm Mind Reuniclus(who would set up on Kyurem if it lacked Life Orb) and Choice Band Scizor. It also OHKOs specially defensive Heatran, Cloyster and offensive Ninetales.

The on-ste analysis says:

Life Orb is an option if you prefer a boost in power, offering a chance to 2HKO specially defensive Jirachi and Choice Band Scizor with Earth Power, but the residual damage will build up too fast, causing Kyurem to use Roost far more than without.

Honestly, this is not a problem. Having used both Leftovers and Life Orb, I can confidently say that Life Orb is the better option on this set.

Some replays:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2452599
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2458104 - vs ganj4lf. It stalled out a Starmie after being burned without the help of Leftovers!
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2496177 - prediction kills the opponent. This is one of my favorite.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2507846 - Kyurem is the bane of sun teams
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2552155 - Kyurem leads vs sun team and proceeds to pressure the opposition.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2717893 - Kyurem destroys sand balance.
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8326065 - testing Dragon Pulse>Ice Beam.

Kyurem oftens gives me an auto-win vs. rain and sun(hits 4+ members super-effectively) teams as well as Hippowdon-based sand teams.

Note: This Kyurem prefers to be used in hail. If you are using it in rain, you NEED toxic spikes. In rain, a modest nature is preferred to make up for the passive damage from hail. Also, as you can see from the replays, Kyurem does not need Hail. I used Hail to get some passive damage on Chansey/Blissey. I did not even bother using Blizzard as I believe that this move is quite overrated on Kyurem; it does not acheive any notable KOs(that is, the power is overkill) and it only has 8 PP.

[Milos]

I'd like to say that SubRoost Kyurem is an absolute beast in this meta. Most Water and Grass-types serve as a free switch-in for it. Starmie cannot touch Kyurem apart from a Scald burn, and if Kyurem gets a sub up, it will beat it 1 on 1 every time. Rotom-W and Tentacruel are in the same boat, all Kyurem has to do it avoid getting hit with a status move as it switches in and it easily sets up a Substitute on both (and beats them both 1 one 1).

Pokemon who rely on low PP moves to beat Kyurem (Focus Blast/Gyro Ball/Stone Edge) can be beaten if Kyurem gets a sub up first. Pressure means they only have 4 pp, and in the case of Stone Edge and Focus Blast, those moves may even miss a couple times, essentially giving Kyurem a free turn.

I think saying that Kyurem-B outclasses Kyurem is unfair imo, as they both play extremely different. For example, while both can run Substitute, KyuB will be using the Substitute to safely nuke things with a mixed set, while Kyurem is aimed to stall the opponent out. Also, as Dark Fallen Angel said, KyuB is suited better to offensive teams that need a Pokemon to bust holes in the opponent's team early to mid game. Kyurem however, works better on balanced and defensive teams.

[MCBarrett]

Kyurem Black @Choice scarf
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 att/252 spe/4 hp
Jolly Nature
-Fusion Bolt
-Outrage
-Dragon Claw
-Ice Beam

This set actually does pretty well if given the proper support. I used it on a sun team alongside venusaur and mamoswine to deal with faster scarfers, especially dragons like garchomp and lati@s, and an offensive heatran to get steels out of the way. This set obviously appreciates rapid spin support and t-wave support as well to maximize longevity and sweeping potential. Also, you may wonder why its a jolly set with a special attack and this is to increase bulk. On top of that with 120 special attack kyurem-b can still take out walls such as lando-t/ gliscor with ice beam and dragon/ electric coverage with kyurem-b's attack stat is more effective against just about everything in the tier. As long as stealth rock is taken care of, kyurem-b can just spam the appropriate move and wear down, switch out multiple times, and wear down the opposing team mid-game, or once the opposing threats to kyurem-b are taken out, it can sweep late-game.

[Onicon]

One note: Dragon Claw seems to be redundant with Fusion Bolt in most cases. The only thing that is hit harder is Mamoswine, but this one is hardly worth a whole moveslot.
That's also one of my objections with mcdanger's set. We would rather have Ice Beam over Dragon Claw, because you otherwise get stalled by Celebi and cannot hit Landorus and Gliscor hard enough. Actually, the whole idea of NOT using STAB Ice Beam/Blizzard on any Kyurem appears so alien to us.

Also: Choice Scarfer can allow itself to run Adamant/Lonely if Haxorus is not an issue. If Salamence with an unknow set switches in you should get out anyway, scarf or not.