HeartGold and SoulSilver ingame tiers

[Diana]

Sorry I waited so long, had some personal things to take care of the last few days.

Added Slowking along with Slowbro in high, no complaints here.

Yeah, I'm not going to penalize stone evolutions since they don't take all that long to get. You can change the day on the clock if you really want one, and I'm definitely not going to end up considering emulator viability since this exists mostly to show what's good to make a quick run to get important items and Pokemon for competitive use after you beat it.

I'd like to note that double-water is viable if only because it means you can have one physical and one special and between the two they can use the three HMs without taking up a ton of slots or using an extra HM slave.

About Haunter/Gengar: not sure if it's Top, but high seems possible. Not going to put it up there yet because that movepool early is miserable. Don't even pay attention to Dark Pulse because Shadow Ball though (iirc it's a level-up move, oddly). It doesn't really need Thunderbolt but if you want to take the time it's nice. 6 hours is really overestimating how long it takes, however...

Is Butterfree really mid? It's like a Psychic-type with no STAB, more weaknesses, and has to wait until pretty late to be able to use its STAB Bug moves. Stats aren't too good either.

[celever]

Diana, you're forgetting compoundeyes sleep powder. It's great for catching pokemon, which is always good for in-game, and the move is great against the earlier gym leaders!

Also in marriland's heartgold wedlocke *spoiler begin* Lettuce the butterfree survived all the way to after Pryce from the beginning,*spoiler end which proves it's very good!

[TM13IceBeam]

Compoundeyes Sleep Powder is excellent utility and can incapacitate foes for free switches. It's not big, but it's helpful.

[shiranai]

I must say how nobody remembered Tauros, while Miltank was still mentioned. Both of them have almost the same availability, and Tauros can actually enjoy having Strenght in its moveset. Also, even not packing Techinician like Scyther, it can still hit really hard.

[Diana]

Miltank can use Strength too, I'm not sure how they're really that different. Miltank gets healing, I guess, but yeah I'm all for Tauros also being high.

Also point taken on Butterfree, I'll put it in Mid for now at least. Totally forgot about Compoundeyes Sleep Powder, it's been a long time since I've used it.

I also figure I should throw something out there for discussion while I'm at it, and that's to add Rattata to Mid. It's awesome really early on, especially when it gets Hyper Fang, but slows down really badly late when its stats are just outdone by pretty much everything. It's kind of like a slightly better Sentret but without as many HMs, and for that I'd say it kind of evens out to the same tier, Mid. Thoughts?

Edit: I think I missed some posts a while back somehow, not sure how I did that. Will probably be some updates here again quite soon once I work back through the thread.

Okay after going back through added Growlithe and Staryu to high.

Also planning to run through a few times, Magnemite could use another look as it was honestly borderline mid-high so I'll be testing that for sure. Haunter, Kadabra, Chikorita, and Dratini are on my list to try as well (Anyone remember how many pages Dratini discussion took last time this game got tiers? It was quite a few, iirc), and I'll definitely work on seeing how fast Pokeathlon/Voltorb Flip/Lottery take myself coming up. Anything else that's borderline that could use a look? (Also if anyone wants to try evolved Gengar and Alakazam for reference, that would be great)

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Originally Posted by Fat Diana

Miltank can use Strength too, I'm not sure how they're really that different. Miltank gets healing, I guess, but yeah I'm all for Tauros also being high.

Also point taken on Butterfree, I'll put it in Mid for now at least. Totally forgot about Compoundeyes Sleep Powder, it's been a long time since I've used it.

I also figure I should throw something out there for discussion while I'm at it, and that's to add Rattata to Mid. It's awesome really early on, especially when it gets Hyper Fang, but slows down really badly late when its stats are just outdone by pretty much everything. It's kind of like a slightly better Sentret but without as many HMs, and for that I'd say it kind of evens out to the same tier, Mid. Thoughts?

Edit: I think I missed some posts a while back somehow, not sure how I did that. Will probably be some updates here again quite soon once I work back through the thread.

Okay after going back through added Growlithe and Staryu to high.

Also planning to run through a few times, Magnemite could use another look as it was honestly borderline mid-high so I'll be testing that for sure. Haunter, Kadabra, Chikorita, and Dratini are on my list to try as well (Anyone remember how many pages Dratini discussion took last time this game got tiers? It was quite a few, iirc), and I'll definitely work on seeing how fast Pokeathlon/Voltorb Flip/Lottery take myself coming up. Anything else that's borderline that could use a look? (Also if anyone wants to try evolved Gengar and Alakazam for reference, that would be great)

One thing that I think is worth taking into consideration: Can Pokemon be dropped midway through the game? Because if so, some Pokemon would make great "crutches".

Also necrobump to see if OP is still here.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Compoundeyes Sleep Powder is excellent utility and can incapacitate foes for free switches. It's not big, but it's helpful.

Butterfree has always been stupidly good with Compoundeyes. Tons of Nuzlockers use Butterfree in Gen 3 onward simply because it's the best pseudo-Psychic type out there, with that super yummy 98% accuracy Sleep Powder letting you just wail on the foe. I use it all the time thanks to it just trashing things that would normally bother it. Granted, it's not taking out the Dragonites on its own, but geez, Butterfree is a lot better than just "Compoundeyes Sleep and switch out"

I remember being seriously bummed that I couldn't get a Butterfree until post-game in B2/W2, because it would have been insta-teamed. Easily Mid-Tier, maybe even low-high.

[NoUserName]

Butterfree in HG/SS is even better due to the existance and the TM U-turn.

It is going to do little damage with it, but better than nothing, does not lose "momentum"

[CrazyCarl]

Lapras was one of the best in-game pokemon in G/S/C if you didn't start with Totodile. Not sure if that's changed for HG/SS, but it's not really much of a pain to catch especially since you can time travel to friday now..

Edit: On second thought, it might be easier to use Red Gyarados until you beat Claire (Ice Fang), and then swap it for Lugia (not water but can fill water offensive role in-game).

But, you catch Lapras at 20 (sort of earlier than Red Gyarados, although you could technically go straight to the Lake of Rage immediately after beating Morty I believe) and it learns Ice Beam at 32, so it's about on par.

[TM13IceBeam]

Red Gyara and Lapras have the same availability since they are both accessible once you get Surf. Lapras also requries backtracking which is annoying without Fly.

[CrazyCarl]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Red Gyara and Lapras have the same availability since they are both accessible once you get Surf. Lapras also requries backtracking which is annoying without Fly.

Going through Ruins of Alph to get to Union Cave with a couple repels will really not take long at all, and Lapras is better in the E4 if you continue to use it IMO. Also, having Lapras gain experience on the way up to the Lake of Rage helps make up for the level disparity.

To me, it's a toss-up.

[JSND]

Gyara can dance at 50 i guess?

That practically screams Gyara is mostly better than Lapras for me

[Alice in Strings]

Gyara is only going to be dancing in the endgame, though (In Kanto, no less). On the other hand, Lappy is going to be STAB Ice Beaming the E4 while Gyarados is nuking with Aqua Tail/Ice Fang.

Frankly, as a person, I hate Gyarados. However, I do know it's a really damn good Pokemon ever since the Physical/Special Split happened. Gyarados also happens to be on the Slow Exp track, meaning it takes so much longer to level it up than the others (See my GSC tier list for more info on that, but it really is significant). On the other hand, Lapras is also on the Slow Experience path. Pick your poison, insta Level 30, or Level 15?

[Lucchini]

Lapras comes at lv. 20 in both generations.

There's really no contest here I think. Gyarados has the better typing, Intimidate, coverage (Payback/Avalanche/Waterfall easily sweeps most of the E4), is met during the storyline and is available 10 levels earlier.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

Furret has 76 base attack, 4 points lower than Miltank's base, so I feel you may judging Furret by its competitive usage (where it shouldn't appear besides joke teams) rather than what it does in-game. Furret (caught earliest as Sentret and trained) and Miltank at the same levels (which doesn't happen in practice because Miltank is pretty underlevelled when you can first get one) should have around the same firepower, Furret possibly more depending on how many Pokemon providing attack EVs you fought on your way (which could be a lot knowing you've passed three gyms and five towns). Furret also beats Miltank in availability, and has powerful Return as a result of being around for so long, not to mention Dig and Shadow Claw access for coverage which Miltank lacks.

Furret's rather poor at taking hits though, but not entirely bad with 85 base HP and just average defensive bases.

Factoring in Furret's superior availability, I'd say he and Miltank are about equally good for in-game purposes. Furret might be OHKOing more for a longer period of time.

Seconding this; Furret trashes Morty with the conveniently placed Shadow Claw TM just outside Ecruteck, and hits pretty hard for a good chunk of the game. Mid for sure, just like every other Generation Rat in our tier lists. Granted, he's no Raticate, but Raticate can't very well hit Morty now, can he?

Also, Gyarados isn't as tedious to get as Lapras is; swimming to the middle of the Lake of Rage is nothing compared to backtracking to Union Cave and spamming Repels to get Lapras. That should definitely be a plus for Red Gyarados.

[TM13IceBeam]

Gyarados has good stats, moves that actually utilise those stats, a godly ability and can faceroll everything immediately because of coming with Dragon Rage, not mentioning how he's overlevelled if you get him immediately. DD comes at 44 which is just in time for E4 imo. Considering how Lapras is pretty bad against Chuck, while Gyarados just facerolls it, the gap between both basically widens and Lapras won't be able to catch up...

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Gyarados has good stats, moves that actually utilise those stats, a godly ability and can faceroll everything immediately because of coming with Dragon Rage, not mentioning how he's overlevelled if you get him immediately. DD comes at 44 which is just in time for E4 imo. Considering how Lapras is pretty bad against Chuck, while Gyarados just facerolls it, the gap between both basically widens and Lapras won't be able to catch up...

On the flipside, you can get virtually every fishable Water type in the game by Union Cave thanks to the Old Rod buff. Is it worth waiting for instead of getting...say...a Poliwag or a Tentacool?

[Satisfaction]

Tentacruel in particular handles chuck just as well as Gyarados, is faster than Pryces Piloswine and can therefore wreck there, and easily handles Claires special Kingdra. Will is an issue, but Koga doesnt have anything that can take it and neither does Bruno. Overall it deals with Karen about the same as Gyara and Lapras.

[TM13IceBeam]

...there was a buff? I'm pretty sure they still catch the same Pokemon as before. Besides, most of these are just pretty bad earlygame (Poliwag has Bubble for main STAB, Tentacool doesn't get anything good until BubbleBeam, Goldeen gets Peck so it's somewhat useful for Bugsy until you realise you probably want to just water gun through their hardens).

EDIT: speaking of tentacruel, I'm reminded of this: underlevelled Tentacruels are available at Route 40, they manhandle Chuck easily (Toxic Spikes beat Poliwrath, Primeape can't kill you before dying to stab surf), surf beats steelix/piloswine, and he can sludge bomb kingdra i guess? it's not slowbro, but it's still the best user of sludge bomb outside of gengar...

[CrazyCarl]

Thanks for the discussions on water poke's guys. Looks like I've been underestimating Gyarados and didn't realize how much the physical/special switch helped him out.

[mcFlareon]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Seconding this; Furret trashes Morty with the conveniently placed Shadow Claw TM just outside Ecruteck, and hits pretty hard for a good chunk of the game. Mid for sure, just like every other Generation Rat in our tier lists. Granted, he's no Raticate, but Raticate can't very well hit Morty now, can he?

Actually Raticate has Bite, Pursuit and Sucker Punch to work with, so it's not entirely useless against Morty. Crunch comes at level 24, too.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat mcFlareon

Actually Raticate has Bite, Pursuit and Sucker Punch to work with, so it's not entirely useless against Morty. Crunch comes at level 24, too.

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that. Thanks for mentioning that~

[Chou Toshio]

Yeah, no contest Gyarados > Laprs

[Lucchini]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

it's not slowbro, but it's still the best user of sludge bomb outside of gengar...

Nidoking/Victreebel/Vileplume/Venomoth? I think even Weezing has a higher special attack base.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

Nidoking/Victreebel/Vileplume/Venomoth? I think even Weezing has a higher special attack base.

Considering Weezing's primary source of offense IS Special Attacks, I'm not at all surprised. Speaking of which, I'll be using one later on in my Poison Monorun, so I'll report my results as soon as I get a good grasp of his performance in HG.