The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups) - Page 4

sammao · Jan 21st, 2013, 8:22:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Just for reference, when I read the description of a C rank Pokemon I immediately think of Heracross. He has a good niche as a Darkrai counter and cool SE coverage with his STABs to make him worthwhile but his 85 speed and poor neutral coverage makes him no more than a niche mon. He has a reason to use in Ubers but most teams won't need it.
Heracross is actually a D rank according to Poppy in earlier post, lol, but I do understand C rank is for niche stuff (like Ludicolo) or less reliable sweeper (Jynx,Cloyster), supporter, or overshadowed things like Kyurem-B etc

Forretress

...

I understand what you said and I agree, like I said Forry ranking can be controversial, the reason for it to be B, IMO, is if you want spiker, you should go with Skarmory or Ferrothorn, if you want Rapid spin, you should consider Excadrill first, due to their superior stat, moves, and arguable typing (Skarm has roost, Ferrothorn has grass type to take on Kyogre and Palkia, Excadrill has that great Atk and Sword Dance). It is only when you need Spike+Rapid Spin you should use Forry, and honestly not every team need both, that is why I think it should stay B

Kabutops

...

I think rely on rain alone already kick Kabutops out of A, if you look at other stuff in A they all function well on its own, not to mention its other flaw, like the somewhat average 115 base attack (you need 120 to be above average IMO, think Arceus, Dialga, Palkia, etc) and lack of bulk (especially on special side) Yes it is great under rain, but without rain it is mediocre, that is why it is B

Bisharp

...

The thing is if you compare it to other B rank sweeper, like Zekrom, Shaymin-S, Landorus-T, etc, it is just not as reliable. Any priority user that are faster than you can stop Sucker Punch (remember you only has 70 Spd), Steel typing help setting up, but its bulk is really lacking and it doesn't really want to take powerful Dragon movers, I think it should be in C because of these reasons
Froslass

...

Calcs

The problem is most team out there carries a plan to stop Froslass, remember, even some non-scarf, non-priority monster out speed it, think Arceus, Mewtwo, Shaymin-S etc, and there are just too many way to stop it setting up 2 layers, that alone makes it C, really. Moreover, it also doesn't have any other niche, and a tiny niche monster fit the C rank definition. It is much more difficult to stop Deoxy-S setting up 2 layers, and that is why it is 2 tier above.
Mamoswine:

Calcs

These are the only guys who avoid a 2HKO outside of niche choices like Cress/Zong. (Although there are some 2HKOs that outspeed Mamo) These should speak a good deal on his ability to wallbreak in Ubers. Ice Shard makes sure this isn't all he is doing, too. The LO set has similar calcs although it needs SR to 2HKO bulky Arceus.

LO Calcs

This good a wallbreaker shouldn't be in the same tier as a mediocre Scarfer who is only used to counter one sweeper.

Mamoswine should not use Choice Band, because it just limited its potential by a lot, but anyway, like I said before, any bulky Arceus not weak to Mamoswine moves can check it, think Wall Arceus, Ghost Arceus, Water Arceus, etc, it is also not difficult to revenge, any thing faster than base 80 and not weak to Ice Shard can kill Mamo, things like Tornadus-T and Kyurem-B are also in C, and I think C is fine with Mamo
Omastar:

Calcs

So outside of Counters like Water Arceus and Chansey (and a few niche mons), Omastar just needs a bit of hazard support or some softening up to sweep past a team. If you have to resort to throwing your weather starter to Omastar, I'd say his sweep wasn't so much a failure. I think you are also underestimating his 70/125 defenses and his resistances to Fire and Ice lets him set up on weaker physical attacks and choice locked Fire Blasts, Ice Beams, and Ho-Ohs on top of scaring others out with his instantly strong Hydro Pump and Ice Beam. Obviously no Ray or M2 when it comes to sweeping but C rank is undercutting it.

Kabutops is in B, and also there are too many limitation for Omastar, it is way too slow if out of rain and SM, and if you only has one of them, there are still Scarfer that outspeed you, like I said before, even if it manage to set up, there are still ways to stop it and it is difficult to set up a second time. Moreover, 115 Special Atk is only average in uber, if Cloyster is in C, so should Omastar

Reshiram: Palkia's Fire Blast hits harder than Kyurem's Fusion Flare so I'm not sure what he brought that outclasses Reshiram. Reshi's defining feature has always been that titanic STAB Blue Flare paired with DM that makes you think twice before bringing in Ogre to tank the Blue Flare. Even under rain this attack has the benefit of allowing Reshiram to OHKO Ferrothorn without having to resort to Choice Specs.
Reshiram has Blue Flare, yes, but it rely on Sun, unlike Kyurem-W, and yes, Blaziken is in B, but if you think of its other weaknesses (to SR and average Speed mainly) that is why it is a rank under Blaziken. If you use sun team, yeah you can fit Resh in, but there are the aforementioned Blaziken and also Ho-Oh to consider, if you are not using sun, you should never use Resh, unlike Ho-Oh, which can be fit in Sand, Hail, or even Rain. I understand it is odd to put such a powerful monster in C, but it suffer huge competition among other things in upper rank (I never said it is outclassed, btw), along with its other weakness and the fact that it is only good in sun, it should stay in C.

Pokemon Trainer Red made a very informative post that concerns Reshiram. (I edited out the offensive bits and the parts irrelevant to Reshiram. I hope posting this is okay)

...

Reshiram being not one, but two tiers below most of the Pokémon I have listed in Tier C makes very little sense, considering it's a far bigger offensive threat than any other Pokémon in that tier. The only justifications I have seen being given in this thread for putting Reshiram so low on the original list, besides the fact that it is weather-dependent, are its entry hazard weakness, its poor defensive typing, and the idea that it is apparently "outclassed by Kyurem-W." But the exact same entry hazard weakness as well as an even worse defensive typing (aside from the Water resistance, which admittedly is actually huge) did not in any way seem to stop Kyurem-W from being placed in Tier A on the original list, while Reshiram being outclassed by Kyurem-W is blatantly false, because under intense sunlight, Reshiram is, in fact, much more threatening than Kyurem-W under the same weather, as not only does Kyurem-W not have an attack anywhere near as powerful as Reshiram's Blue Flare, but Kyurem-W's attack which comes closest to the power of a Sun-boosted Blue Flare is one that halves its own Special Attack. This means that in the Sun, Choice Scarf Reshiram is a significantly more effective lategame sweeper than Choice Scarf Kyurem-W, since the latter obviously cannot sweep by spamming its most powerful attack, which is much weaker than Reshiram's Blue Flare to begin with anyway, forcing it to use even weaker attacks like Dragon Pulse, Ice Beam and Fusion Flare, all of which, might I add, are barely over half as strong as Reshiram's Blue Flare. Think about why Kyogre is so useful as a Choice Scarf holder, and then compare it to Choice Scarf Kyurem-W to see what Choice Scarf Kyurem-W lacks in comparison, and then with this in mind, compare Choice Scarf Kyurem-W to Choice Scarf Reshiram once again. Having Same Type Attack Bonus for a move with 130 base power and can be boosted by a weather is a massive advantage, and I don't understand why people are overlooking it so much, and yet do not fail to recognize the power of Kyogre's Water Spout (and I should add that unlike Water Spout, Blue Flare's power does not decrease with the user's HP!). I'd really be interested in seeing a Choice Scarf Kyurem-W performing a lategame sweep against a remaining team consisting of an Arceus-Normal at about 70% health, a full-health Mewtwo, a full-health Groudon, and a full-health Darkrai, but my Choice Scarf Reshiram has in fact swept the four aforementioned Pokémon in succession in one battle, and won me that match. And all of this is saying a lot, since unlike every other Tier B Pokémon on my list besides Mewtwo, Kyurem-W is in that tier solely due to its sheer offensive power. And not to mention, Reshiram's typing also offers a lot of advantages defensively that Kyurem-W's doesn't, mainly its 4x resistance rather than neutrality to Fire (to highlight the importance of this, a Life Orb Sacred Fire in the Sun can destroy Kyurem-W in one hit), its resistance rather than neutrality to U-turn, its resistance rather than weakness to Steel (which actually matters at times, as Scizor is used sometimes, and I've seen people putting Iron Head on Genesect. And not to mention, Arceus-Steel. Good luck actually defeating it one-on-one with a non-Choice Scarf Kyurem-W), and its neutrality rather than weakness to Fighting. The only reason why Reshiram is a tier below Kyurem-W on my list is because Kyurem-W is far less weather dependent than Reshiram, making it viable on more teams than Reshiram, since Reshiram should only ever be used in teams with Groudon and no other weather summoner (in other words, Sun teams), while Kyurem-W is viable in any team regardless of whether it is a weatherless team, a team with Kyogre or Tyranitar, or even with two or more weather summoners. Since this list ranks the viability of the Pokémon in the Übers metagame, then it would make sense to place a Pokémon that is viable in teams of any weather above one that is viable only in Sun teams, hence why I am putting Kyurem-W a tier above Reshiram, despite the fact that the latter is far, far more dangerous given the assumption that it is used in a Sun team. But Reshiram certainly does not belong anywhere near as low on the viability list as the vast majority of people seem to believe.

(He had created his own tier lists that, although understandable, didn't really correspond with the description of each tier given in this thread. I don't agree with everything he says but I found his reasoning concerning Reshiram good which is why I'm sharing it.)

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 24th, 2013, 1:52:27 PM

Forretress: Having Spikes and Spin together is more than just a simple teambuilding shortcut. All the hard counters for Excadrill (assorted bulky ghosts) and Ferrothorn (spinners with resists or Xatu) are insufficient against Forry as the combination of these two important support moves forces the opponent to pick their poison. Either they block the spin (which he isn't that bad at doing as he can Toxic the ghosts that aren't major Spikes fodder) at the cost of extra layers going up as they switch or they cut off the Spikes and watch all of theirs disappear.

Kabutops: Kyogre is THE most used Pokemon in Ubers and has been since forever. How can needing the support of the king of Ubers reduce the viability of anything? (Torna-T was S rank in OU despite the fact rain doesn't have such a powerful abuser) His base attack is far from low as he hits harder than EKiller and has a powerful coverage options that still outspeed everything not named ScarfTerrak (who beats EKiller as well) and Ray.

Bisharp: Faster priority doesn't do much when he resists every usable priority in Ubers and can still Night Slash. It may not be switching around willy-nilly (EKiller can't either) but he still has no difficulty getting a boost. (and still has utility without SD thanks to Sucker Punch) Again, he takes prediction to sweep but less to setup and seeing how dangerous he is and difficult to reliably stop he definitely deserves a B rank.

Frosslass: Yeah, that's true C rank works then.

Mamoswine: (Yeah, I couldn't remember the set he used just what he could do. That's why I included both LO and CB calcs)

Calcs

So outside of bulky Arceus (every Pokemon has its fair share of checks/counters in Ubers) just about nothing can safely switch into Mamoswine while he is going to blow holes into just about every Stall team in Ubers. Again, he has his checks/counters but that shouldn't stop him from being a B rank mon. (especially when Ice Shard means he isn't just wall breaking)

Omastar: The difference between Cloyster and Omastar is that Cloyster is dead weight until it sets up on the choice locked Ice Beam. Under Rain Omastar is faster than Mewtwo and his rain boosted Hydro Pump is packing 2,7 times the power of his Psystrike, which largely makes up for the mere 1,12 times extra umph behind Mewtwo's SpAtk. (Not trying to say Omastar is better, just that his "weak" special attack is made up for by his ridiculously strong attack by comparing it to a widely recognized powerhouse) Pair that with good SE coverage and Omastar is posing a significant initial threat that risks doubling if you attempt to shelter one of your key members from it.

Reshiram: Reshiram doesn't rely on Sun at all. He has powerful dragon attacks backed by 150 SpAtk. Not to mention Blue Flare is still going to roast steels like Ferrothorn that tend to use most dragons as setup fodder under Rain. The reason it's silly to use Reshiram outside of anything but a Sun team (Well, he works fine on Sand as he can try to predict steel switch-ins easier knowing that no matter what Blue Flare is going to bite something hard) is that in any other situation you are probably better off with something like Palkia or Kyurem since Blue Flare is the defining feature behind Reshiram. So yes it does face competition from these dragons, however it isn't outclassed by them nor is it a weak choice in and of itself so sticking it two tiers below them amongst the dismissable Kyurem-B (who is outclassed by Zek and suffers from a very poor movepool that makes him a mediocre pick anyways) I feel is a mistake.

sammao · Jan 26th, 2013, 11:00:41 PM

Forestress and Kabutops: Forry is B because of Ferrothorn is A. Forrothorn has a type that allow it to check both Kyogre and Normal Arceus, and not to mention stuff like Palkia and Zekrom that Forry can only dream to check and better stat overall. Sure, it may not have rapid spin, but it deserve a rank about Forry, and Forry should stay in the same tier as Excadrill and Skarmory.

For Kabutops, I will say this: Look at who are in A
--Darkari, Mewtwo, Kyurem-W, Ho-Oh, Rayquazza, Groudon, Palkia, Giratina-O/A, etc, and you should be able to see why Kabutops stays in B.

Bisharp: Shucker punch is a powerful priority and all, but is hindered by unreliability. Steel typing is good, but is hindered by bad defensive stats. 125 Atk is also great, but 70 speed sucks and Night slash only has 70 base power. Basically, all of its advantages were limited by another weakness. Yes, I agree it is better than a lot of things in C, but not quite as good or reliable as B. Sweeper/wall breaker in B are generally fast or bulky, Bisharp has none, and although Shuker punch remedy the speed issues, it has side effect of failing to hit. So I think it should stay C, especially when Scizor is also in C.

Mamoswine: So many things (ie, faster than 80) revenge this, unless you are 4 times weak to Ice shard. This is the reason it is in C, really. Similar to Bisharp, it doesn't have bulk or speed of B monster. Sure, ice shard fix the speed issue a bit, but it still cannot hit everything. Unlike Bisharp, it doesn't have a set up move, and its sweeping potential is limited, that why it is C.

Poppy · Jan 26th, 2013, 11:05:56 PM

Sammao you are incredibly off the mark for Forretress, access to Toxic Spikes and Rapin Spin keep it A tier. Its utility is not as immediately apparent because it doesn't check as many things, but it is most definitely an A tier Pokemon because it provides unique and invaluable team support.

Kabutops is ok to be at B mainly because Groudon can switch into it pretty easily and that neuters it entirely, but it's very, very good and it's top tier B. Never simply just say 'look at the other Pokemon in this tier and you will see why' what kind of logic is that? Please don't be so nonsensical.

Bisharp is ass lol. I would argue it's even D worthy.

Mamoswine is better than Bisharp but almost every single Arceus forme can either wall it, kill it, or both. Even Grass Arceus and Steel Arceus, which are technically 'weak' to Mamoswine, both beat it as long as they don't switch in on Icicle Crash and Earthquake, respectively.

blitzlefan · Jan 26th, 2013, 11:16:31 PM

Also, Ferrothorn does not check Normal Arceus, as Arceus will set up in his face (Swords Dance) and then crush it with Brick Break/Earthquake. The best it can do is attempt to stall Arceus out with Leech Seed/Toxic/Protect, but will usually lose.

sammao · Jan 27th, 2013, 12:48:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Poppy

Sammao you are incredibly off the mark for Forretress, access to Toxic Spikes and Rapin Spin keep it A tier. Its utility is not as immediately apparent because it doesn't check as many things, but it is most definitely an A tier Pokemon because it provides unique and invaluable team support.

Kabutops is ok to be at B mainly because Groudon can switch into it pretty easily and that neuters it entirely, but it's very, very good and it's top tier B. Never simply just say 'look at the other Pokemon in this tier and you will see why' what kind of logic is that? Please don't be so nonsensical.

I admit my last post didn't explain enough, but that is because I have been arguing with Melee Mewtwo for the last couple of posts (#62 and 76)and I have already explained all my points so much that I don't feel like to repeat. If you read my previous post, I said Forry is in A is controversial, not impossible. I think Frrothorn should be a rank above Forry, that would be my main point. Yes, Forry has it unique advantage also, but stuff like Skarmory, Tentacruel, and Excadrill are also in B, and I don't think Forry should rank about them, unlike Ferrothorn.

I admit my point for Kabutops last post was kind of a bad example, but again, that was because I have explained everything so much in previous posts already to Melee Mewtwo and I was just intended to tell him that he should compare Kabutops with other stuff in A. Like I said, Kabutops reliance on rain is the biggest obstacle for it to be A, especially when most things in A is not weather dependent. Plus, it stat isn't up quite up to Uber titans standard, unlike Ho-oh, a monster needs similar support (Remove rain +Rapid Spin). That is why I think Kabutops should be B.

If I confused anyone, I apologize. But I also feel a bit insulted this time. Sure, I don't have as much experience as a Moderator and I expect someone to disagree with me, but I respect everyone's opinion and I hope you can do the same to everyone else. And please, read every posts first before you make any negative comments to others.

I hope everyone can have a good discussion among each other, and TBH, I tried to post in this (Uber Viability ranking) thread because I feel this is the least popular ranking thread compare to other Smogon tiers and needs more love. I think Moderator should update to this thread more frequently so we can have better discussion among the ranking of different monsters

shrang · Jan 27th, 2013, 1:22:59 AM

Bisharp is not ass, lol. Yeah, it's not the best mon around, but Dark STAB is really good and STAB Sucker Punch is strong as fuck. Find me another physical attacker that can wipe 80% off Ghost Arceus when its burned (+2 obviously), I dare you. Not brilliant, but C tier sounds good for Bisharp, IMO.

sammao · Jan 27th, 2013, 1:24:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat blitzlefan

Also, Ferrothorn does not check Normal Arceus, as Arceus will set up in his face (Swords Dance) and then crush it with Brick Break/Earthquake. The best it can do is attempt to stall Arceus out with Leech Seed/Toxic/Protect, but will usually lose.

I don't know what about you, but I tend to see Arceus switch out when it is hit by Leech seed more often than not. Yes, Adamant Life Orb Arceus carrying Brick break will get past even physically defensive Ferrothorn, but there are Arceus out there doesn't carry Life Orb and Ferrothorn should be able to at least leech seed Arceus.

+2 252+ Atk Arceus-Normal (Skill Scarf) Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 179-211 (50.85 - 59.94%)

Arceus can only 3HKO this provided you leech seed it, you can potentially stall for another turn with protect, and yes, Arceus still kills you, but it will be severly crippled with leech seed+ another attack or Toxic

+2 252+ Atk Arceus-Normal (Skill Scarf) Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 270-318 (76.7 - 90.34%)

Yes, you will be 2HKOed, but there will be Iron Barb damages this time and you will get leech seed on it. Again, if you have protect, Arceus will be heavily crippled. If you want to, Ferrothorn can even use a Physically defensive spread and will surely be able to take on Arceus well.

That is not to mention that some Arceus don't even carry a ground or fighting moves and use something like recover instead. Of course, Ferrothorn will usually die if it switches in as Arceus SD, but so as many other extreme killer check. For instance, Scarf Terrakion and Fighting Arceus can't KO a 252hp Arceus and will get KO by+2 EQ/BB and 2HKO by +2 Extreme speed respectively, Landorus-T can intimidate+Toxic Arceus, Bronzong can Reflect+Toxic but they will still lose one on one. All of the above are considered checks, and I don't see why Ferrothorn isn't one.

Edit: Forgot to say, if Arceus carries Life Orb, then there are more residual damages and protect will be even more effective.

Donkey · Jan 27th, 2013, 1:30:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Bisharp is not ass, lol. Yeah, it's not the best mon around, but Dark STAB is really good and STAB Sucker Punch is strong as fuck. Find me another physical attacker that can wipe 80% off Ghost Arceus when its burned (+2 obviously), I dare you. Not brilliant, but C tier sounds good for Bisharp, IMO.

Anyone with a brain won't let Bisharp set up and won't let it activate Sucker Punch. It is walled by pokemon such as Kyogre and Groudon, phased by whirlwind lugia, skarm, and roar giratina-a and is too frail or slow to be C tier.

sammao · Jan 27th, 2013, 1:56:34 AM

I ignored two monsters I have been arguing with you, lol, but anyway, here it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Omastar: The difference between Cloyster and Omastar is that Cloyster is dead weight until it sets up on the choice locked Ice Beam. Under Rain Omastar is faster than Mewtwo and his rain boosted Hydro Pump is packing 2,7 times the power of his Psystrike, which largely makes up for the mere 1,12 times extra umph behind Mewtwo's SpAtk. (Not trying to say Omastar is better, just that his "weak" special attack is made up for by his ridiculously strong attack by comparing it to a widely recognized powerhouse) Pair that with good SE coverage and Omastar is posing a significant initial threat that risks doubling if you attempt to shelter one of your key members from it.

Perhaps Cloyster isn't the best comparison since they were quite different, Cloyster outspeed 90s that doesn't invest much in speed, mainly defensive Groudon and Giratina without weather and Shell Smash, and also has great Ice stab move. But Anyway, like I have said to you before, it is just difficult to set up and it can still be stop after set up. A better comparison will be Gorebyss, which lack the rock typing to take Extreme speed but it get baton pass. It has very same speed and 1 less base SAtk, and Gorebyss is a C monster, so should Omastar.

Reshiram: Reshiram doesn't rely on Sun at all. He has powerful dragon attacks backed by 150 SpAtk. Not to mention Blue Flare is still going to roast steels like Ferrothorn that tend to use most dragons as setup fodder under Rain. The reason it's silly to use Reshiram outside of anything but a Sun team (Well, he works fine on Sand as he can try to predict steel switch-ins easier knowing that no matter what Blue Flare is going to bite something hard) is that in any other situation you are probably better off with something like Palkia or Kyurem since Blue Flare is the defining feature behind Reshiram. So yes it does face competition from these dragons, however it isn't outclassed by them nor is it a weak choice in and of itself so sticking it two tiers below them amongst the dismissable Kyurem-B (who is outclassed by Zek and suffers from a very poor movepool that makes him a mediocre pick anyways) I feel is a mistake.

Well, if you don't use Resh in Sun then I don't have much to say lol. There is no reason to use Resh outside of sun, period. I know it has 150 SAtk Draco Meteor, but so as things like Palkia and Dialga which has better speed and defensive typing allow it to take more hit. Fire Stab is great, but not if it is without sun support. Like what I have been saying to you, Resh faces competition from other Uber Dragons and Fire type, weakness to SR, average speed, and a type that leaves common weaknesses. So it should be C

Anyway, I don't think there is any point for both of us to continue, I enjoy the discussion with you and hope you are the same

Anikrahman1995 · Jan 27th, 2013, 4:10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Donkey

Anyone with a brain won't let Bisharp set up and won't let it activate Sucker Punch. It is walled by pokemon such as Kyogre and Groudon, phased by whirlwind lugia, skarm, and roar giratina-a and is too frail or slow to be C tier.

The Pokemon in bold lose to Bisharp. Kyogre dies to +2 Sucker Punch, Lugia will always lose to +2 Night Slash and Giratina-A will also lose. Bisharp is not ass. Some replays:
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8260906 - Drown All swept by Bisharp. Note: Scarf Palkia was used.
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8262531 - Another Bisharp sweep on Sand team.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 27th, 2013, 5:11:30 AM

About Ekiller vs Ferrothorn; Forry actually does a better job checking Ekiller with Toxic + Pain Split + Physically defensive spread. I'm probably the only one who prefers the EV spread but Toxic/Split is pretty common on Forry while BB is pretty common on EKiller.

Forry: I don't feel like Forry is outclassed by Ferro at all. In fact, I often opt for the former since the extra utility (and ability to turn the latter into setup fodder) makes him a stronger choice.

Kabutops: Yeah Groudon sucks but outside of him and Physical Tina there isn't much else that is going to hard counter Kabutops. Reliance on rain is a non-issue as it is everywhere. Again, this same argument was brought up and dismissed in OU for Torna-T because of little it takes to get rain up. This is doubly true in Ubers when Kyogre is THE King of Ubers. I feel Kabutops is dangerous enough and provides enough utility (best offensive spinner) that it deserves a A rank.

Bisharp: How is Bisharp ass? It is basically the same thing as Ekiller except that;
A) Bisharp uses his cool typing to ease setup where Ekiller uses his bulk
B) Bisharp requires a bit of prediction to use where Ekiller doesn't (which is why I say it should be B and not A)
C) Bisharp's priority attack has an excellent typing whereas Ekiller's isn't exceptional. (it has good neutral coverage but the punch comes from Ekiller's raw stats, the same stats Bisharp has)

Mamoswine: So what it loses to bulky Arceus? Every team can only pack one and being counterless/checkless isn't a requirement for B rank.

Omastar: Well the Rock typing actually makes a pretty big difference as it makes up for the Def drops when Ekiller comes in and gives Omastar more resistences to setup on (like Ho-Oh). He also packs stronger defences and has viable coverage moves. (unlike Gorebyss who only has Water + Ice) As far as utility is concerned Omastar has access to every form of hazards. (I wouldn't use it much for that role but if you want to compare it to Gore's BP Omastar has its own support options)

Reshiram: I gave some reasons why you would consider Reshiram outside of Sun teams. He faces competition, sure, but that doesn't justify dropping two ranks below them. (Unlike Cube who is outclassed by Zekrom and pretty mediocre regardless) C is just too harsh a punishment I feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat sammao

Anyway, I don't think there is any point for both of us to continue, I enjoy the discussion with you and hope you are the same

I did enjoy this discussion however I will continue because of the following reason:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat sammao

I hope everyone can have a good discussion among each other, and TBH, I tried to post in this (Uber Viability ranking) thread because I feel this is the least popular ranking thread compare to other Smogon tiers and needs more love. I think Moderator should update to this thread more frequently so we can have better discussion among the ranking of different monsters

Thanks for helping to bring life back into the Ubers thread. :)

shrang · Jan 27th, 2013, 5:24:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Donkey

Anyone with a brain won't let Bisharp set up and won't let it activate Sucker Punch. It is walled by pokemon such as Kyogre and Groudon, phased by whirlwind lugia, skarm, and roar giratina-a and is too frail or slow to be C tier.

You'd be surprised how many set up opportunities Bisharp has, actually. I don't know how you got the idea that Bisharp loses to Lugia or Giratina, lol. I guess they MIGHT be able to take a hit... with like 5-10% left.

Rayquaza_ · Jan 27th, 2013, 5:54:08 AM

Kyu-B is NOT outclassed by Zek and is NOT mediocre.
Unlike Zek it doesnt fear Kyogre's ice beam.
Also unlike Zek it EASILY beats Groudon, Arceus grass and ground, Gliscor and has the upper hand against all the 90 base speed ubers.
Limited movepool hardly means anything when your main STAB hits everything but steel types on their lower defense stat.

Cloyster is every bit as dangerous as Blaziken so they must share the same tier.

Reshiram without the sun is a worse Kyurem so C rank is fine.

**trickroom** · Jan 27th, 2013, 9:55:37 AM

Quote:

I don't know how you got the idea that Bisharp loses to Lugia or Giratina, lol. I guess they MIGHT be able to take a hit... with like 5-10% left.

Donkey means Bisharp loses to both one-on-one, and if Bisharp lacks Night Slash for Iron Head. He probably forgotten about Night Slash but Reflect Lugia will still beat Bisharp lol, unless you crit of course. Bisharp maxes out at 239 Speed with Adamant so I guess it helps you outrun most Giratina, but you still lose one-on-one, because it will burn you. Bisharp isn't shit, but it is pretty bad usually when compared to more reliable sweepers: Terrakion, Rayquaza, Arceus.

Here's why Bisharp should be in C rank at best, actually maybe D. It findsit hard to setup ( Scarf Dragons? You sure you can survive more than 2 hits? Draco Meteor from Scarf Dialga will rip off more than half easily ), its slow, 239 Speed is really bad compared to things like Terrakion, Sucker Punch can sometimes be foiled with Substitute, random status users. You have a lot of useful resistances but horrible weaknesses as well, and Defiant helps you beat Landorus-T lol that is a good thing. Even random Thunders 2HKO you at worst, unless they are weak things like Lugia lol.

Ferrothorn can only annoy Arceus with Leech Seed, it can win one against one, but is a lousy check when you consider Arceus can easily break past it with Brick Break. If you mispredict, used Protect on Swords Dance, Ferrothorn is royally screwed. Forretress is a much better check especially when they tend to like Brick Break over Earthquake, just use Toxic and stall, Arceus cannot break past Forretress that easily ( thanks to no Fighting weakness ), although Forretress might die in the process.

I think Blissey and Chansey should share the same rank, probably rank C. They are both pretty useless against Spikes users but Blissey has leftovers and can carry Fire Blast. Leftovers is rather useful when I used Blissey and never regretted using it over Chansey. Switching around better is a huge advantage especially for defensive pokemon.

Kyurem-B isnt outclassed by Zekrom but it is usually a horrible pokemon to use in Ubers. Not only weak to Stealth Rock but stomped by Spikes as well, and you are slow. Outrage leave you open to revenge kills, regardless of which set you are using, Genesect, Palkia and Terrakion will always smash you. STAB Ice Beam doesn't even OHKO Groudon if you don't invest in Special Attack, and CB Zekrom 2HKOes Groudon just fine. Stealth Rock will put you into 2HKO range from Kyogre's attacks. Zekrom beats Ho-Oh, Steel Arceus and has a more useful typing.

Cloyster is weak to every entry hazard, slower and needs a free turn to setup. Blaziken just have to use Protect, has powerful dual STABs, Flare Blitz in sun is way more powerful than everything Cloyster has. Reshiram should be B because of its sheer power and it is never a worse Kyurem because Reshiram beats Ho-Oh with any Rock attack, is immune to burn, and Blue Flare is insanely strong.

Daggerfall · Jan 27th, 2013, 6:31:35 PM

Since Charizard is on the list, why not add Ninetales and Politoed to the E list? I doubt it would deter people from using the two in Ubers, but might as well try, no?

ScraftyIsTheBest · Jan 27th, 2013, 7:10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Daggerfall

Since Charizard is on the list, why not add Ninetales and Politoed to the E list? I doubt it would deter people from using the two in Ubers, but might as well try, no?

Let me just say that if we want an E-Ranker, let's put Dragonite in E-Rank in an attempt to deter people from using it in Ubers.

Bisharp is fine in C. It needs plenty of support to work effectively, but still can be dangerous.

I don't know about the two blobs really...

Also, Manaphy for B for reasons stated previously.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 28th, 2013, 3:17:59 AM

Well actually the classic LO Brick Break Bisharp beats Lugia one on on. (lol, screw your screens) However, I prefer the new Lum Low Kick Bisharp as it lets it get past those pesky WoW users that used to bother him before without missing the lost power of LO. (since now it has Low Kick which hits hard almost everything in Ubers)

Again, Bisharp is a lot like Ekiller. As far as its bulk is concerned, a resisted special attack does a tad bit more to Bisharp than it does to Ekiller whereas a resisted physical attack does a tad bit less to Bisharp than to Ekiller. (about the same difference as between the special attacks) Obviously coverage moves are annoying and he needs prediction (Opponent needs it as well) but that's why Ekiller is S rank.

C rank description

Bisharp isn't performing the small niche of checking M2 + Ghostceus, he is a very dangerous sweeper but has some drawbacks that prevent him from doing it very easily.

B rank description

Yeah, this seems to fit his description better.

Oh, I agree that Toed and Tails need to go to E rank. I actually see them more than Charizard.

shrang · Jan 28th, 2013, 7:18:51 AM

Quote:

Donkey means Bisharp loses to both one-on-one, and if Bisharp lacks Night Slash for Iron Head. He probably forgotten about Night Slash but Reflect Lugia will still beat Bisharp lol, unless you crit of course. Bisharp maxes out at 239 Speed with Adamant so I guess it helps you outrun most Giratina, but you still lose one-on-one, because it will burn you. Bisharp isn't shit, but it is pretty bad usually when compared to more reliable sweepers: Terrakion, Rayquaza, Arceus.

You do realise getting beaten "one-on-one" by Lugia and Giratina is the flimsiest argument ever, right? Practically everything loses to Lugia and Giratina if they both switch in at the same, hell even CB Outrage from Rayquaza fails to OHKO Giratina, and Giratina can OHKO KO in return with Draco Meteor if you really want to take it that way.

**PK Gaming** · Jan 29th, 2013, 5:54:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Daggerfall

Since Charizard is on the list, why not add Ninetales and Politoed to the E list? I doubt it would deter people from using the two in Ubers, but might as well try, no?

Charizard's placement on the tier is a joke, since there's a disproportionate amount of Charizard's being used in Ubers.

---

Do you think that Arceus-Ghost could potentially rise to S-tier? It seems an S-tier worthy to me. Plays offense & defense (on top of being fast), spinblocks and is just a dick in general.

**Pocket** · Jan 29th, 2013, 6:00:01 PM

Yea Arceus-Ghost and Arceus-Steel are strong win conditions in Ubers, probably moreso than Arceus-Normal. I'd strongly consider those two for S-tier.

**Tobes** · Jan 29th, 2013, 6:50:32 PM

We gave Ghost Arceus very strong consideration for S-tier when we created this list. We were a bit unsure about it, but agreed it was at the least top A-tier. Hell when we were considering an A+ Tier it was the first thing that came to mind.

Also Sun Blue Fire is literally the only reason to use Reshiram (except for Flame Charge I guess but who the hell uses that). If you're trying to use it anywhere but a Sun team you are far better serviced by Kyurem-W or Rayquaza.

Go10 · Jan 29th, 2013, 6:53:26 PM

Putting Ghostceus in S rank was already mentionned by me in November, Jibaku, Poppy, Shrang et cie already approved but for some reason, nobody edited the first post.

However, I must disagree about Steelceus being S-rank, he has a lot of check, too much imo. Also, being so dependent of the last slot doesnt help. He require too much support for this, really.
Finally, there is no way you can compare Steelceus with EKceus. Kyogre, Ghostceus and EKceus can win the game by themself, how can Steelceus be a better win conditions than someone who need ONE turn and nothing else to win the game (you're probably going to tell me that Steelceus can turn into a killing machine with just one Calm Mind, but dont forget that he got some solid check/counter and a meh STAB, which isnt the case with EKceus who can completely walk through your team if you lack toxic/a fight stab; thats the reason why he's S-rank after all).

PS : I guess I'm going to repeat myself since no mod answered but here we go with Fightceus.

MeteorMiss · Jan 29th, 2013, 7:01:49 PM

If this is supposed to be an aid for newer players, then why do we only have the menu sprites and not the names? It's not much good to a newer player if they know something is S-rank, but don't know what the whale is called.

**Tobes** · Jan 29th, 2013, 7:07:44 PM

If a player can't recognize Pokemon by their sprites then this list isn't going to be much help to them anyway. It is not intended for people brand new to the game; it's for players who know the basics of Pokemon and want to get into this metagame.

Jan 26th, 2013, 11:05:56 PM	#79
Poppy SYMPTOMATIC OF A GREATER ILL Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,443 brisbane	Sammao you are incredibly off the mark for Forretress, access to Toxic Spikes and Rapin Spin keep it A tier. Its utility is not as immediately apparent because it doesn't check as many things, but it is most definitely an A tier Pokemon because it provides unique and invaluable team support. Kabutops is ok to be at B mainly because Groudon can switch into it pretty easily and that neuters it entirely, but it's very, very good and it's top tier B. Never simply just say 'look at the other Pokemon in this tier and you will see why' what kind of logic is that? Please don't be so nonsensical. Bisharp is ass lol. I would argue it's even D worthy. Mamoswine is better than Bisharp but almost every single Arceus forme can either wall it, kill it, or both. Even Grass Arceus and Steel Arceus, which are technically 'weak' to Mamoswine, both beat it as long as they don't switch in on Icicle Crash and Earthquake, respectively. __________________ erotically erudite

Jan 26th, 2013, 11:16:31 PM	#80
blitzlefan Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 622 Animal Crossing: New Leaf :)	Also, Ferrothorn does not check Normal Arceus, as Arceus will set up in his face (Swords Dance) and then crush it with Brick Break/Earthquake. The best it can do is attempt to stall Arceus out with Leech Seed/Toxic/Protect, but will usually lose. __________________ VM or PM me for Ubers RMT rates! Also, I can make amateur checks for analyses!

Jan 29th, 2013, 6:00:01 PM	#96
Pocket Talonflame :D Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,305 Bergenfield	Yea Arceus-Ghost and Arceus-Steel are strong win conditions in Ubers, probably moreso than Arceus-Normal. I'd strongly consider those two for S-tier. __________________ Dark Horse Project: Conquer the Ladder! \| Word of Wisdom for Trainers \| Smogon Doubles: Let's Make It Official!

Jan 29th, 2013, 6:50:32 PM	#97
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,274 GONER	We gave Ghost Arceus very strong consideration for S-tier when we created this list. We were a bit unsure about it, but agreed it was at the least top A-tier. Hell when we were considering an A+ Tier it was the first thing that came to mind. Also Sun Blue Fire is literally the only reason to use Reshiram (except for Flame Charge I guess but who the hell uses that). If you're trying to use it anywhere but a Sun team you are far better serviced by Kyurem-W or Rayquaza. __________________

Jan 29th, 2013, 6:53:26 PM	#98
Go10 Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 775	Putting Ghostceus in S rank was already mentionned by me in November, Jibaku, Poppy, Shrang et cie already approved but for some reason, nobody edited the first post. However, I must disagree about Steelceus being S-rank, he has a lot of check, too much imo. Also, being so dependent of the last slot doesnt help. He require too much support for this, really. Finally, there is no way you can compare Steelceus with EKceus. Kyogre, Ghostceus and EKceus can win the game by themself, how can Steelceus be a better win conditions than someone who need ONE turn and nothing else to win the game (you're probably going to tell me that Steelceus can turn into a killing machine with just one Calm Mind, but dont forget that he got some solid check/counter and a meh STAB, which isnt the case with EKceus who can completely walk through your team if you lack toxic/a fight stab; thats the reason why he's S-rank after all). PS : I guess I'm going to repeat myself since no mod answered but here we go with Fightceus. __________________ RMT BW1 Uber - Unlimited Victory Works RMT BW2 Uber - Dark War

Jan 26th, 2013, 11:00:41 PM	#78
sammao Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 139	Forestress and Kabutops: Forry is B because of Ferrothorn is A. Forrothorn has a type that allow it to check both Kyogre and Normal Arceus, and not to mention stuff like Palkia and Zekrom that Forry can only dream to check and better stat overall. Sure, it may not have rapid spin, but it deserve a rank about Forry, and Forry should stay in the same tier as Excadrill and Skarmory. For Kabutops, I will say this: Look at who are in A --Darkari, Mewtwo, Kyurem-W, Ho-Oh, Rayquazza, Groudon, Palkia, Giratina-O/A, etc, and you should be able to see why Kabutops stays in B. Bisharp: Shucker punch is a powerful priority and all, but is hindered by unreliability. Steel typing is good, but is hindered by bad defensive stats. 125 Atk is also great, but 70 speed sucks and Night slash only has 70 base power. Basically, all of its advantages were limited by another weakness. Yes, I agree it is better than a lot of things in C, but not quite as good or reliable as B. Sweeper/wall breaker in B are generally fast or bulky, Bisharp has none, and although Shuker punch remedy the speed issues, it has side effect of failing to hit. So I think it should stay C, especially when Scizor is also in C. Mamoswine: So many things (ie, faster than 80) revenge this, unless you are 4 times weak to Ice shard. This is the reason it is in C, really. Similar to Bisharp, it doesn't have bulk or speed of B monster. Sure, ice shard fix the speed issue a bit, but it still cannot hit everything. Unlike Bisharp, it doesn't have a set up move, and its sweeping potential is limited, that why it is C.

Jan 27th, 2013, 5:54:08 AM	#89
Rayquaza_ Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 694	Kyu-B is NOT outclassed by Zek and is NOT mediocre. Unlike Zek it doesnt fear Kyogre's ice beam. Also unlike Zek it EASILY beats Groudon, Arceus grass and ground, Gliscor and has the upper hand against all the 90 base speed ubers. Limited movepool hardly means anything when your main STAB hits everything but steel types on their lower defense stat. Cloyster is every bit as dangerous as Blaziken so they must share the same tier. Reshiram without the sun is a worse Kyurem so C rank is fine.

Jan 27th, 2013, 6:31:35 PM	#91
Daggerfall Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 73	Since Charizard is on the list, why not add Ninetales and Politoed to the E list? I doubt it would deter people from using the two in Ubers, but might as well try, no?

Jan 29th, 2013, 7:01:49 PM	#99
MeteorMiss Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 111	If this is supposed to be an aid for newer players, then why do we only have the menu sprites and not the names? It's not much good to a newer player if they know something is S-rank, but don't know what the whale is called.

Jan 29th, 2013, 7:07:44 PM	#100
Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo! Moderator Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 2,274 GONER	If a player can't recognize Pokemon by their sprites then this list isn't going to be much help to them anyway. It is not intended for people brand new to the game; it's for players who know the basics of Pokemon and want to get into this metagame. __________________