Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers - Mark II

[Hemp Man]

On Farfetch'd power writeup ("Due to its STAB on Body Slam, Fly, and Slash, coupled with Swords Dance, Farfetch'd is an offensive juggernaut.") you should probably note that Slash ignores Swords Dance boost in RBY mechanics. It kinda looks like you were trying to say that Slash coupled with Swords Dance makes him look like an offensive jaggernaut.

[Longfellow]

Thanks, fixed now. "Power: Due to its STAB on Body Slam and Fly, coupled with Swords Dance, as well as its late-game Slash (which is unaffected by the Swords Dance attack boosts but does much more damage without setup), Farfetch'd is an offensive juggernaut."

[Hemp Man]

Hmmm...would anyone be opposed if I rewrote Caterpie? The current review is good, but I feel like I could write a more detailed review.

One thing about the review is that the person wasn't sure wherever to list Caterpie as either Mid or Low, I'm in the same conflict. What do you guys think?

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Hmmm...would anyone be opposed if I rewrote Caterpie? The current review is good, but I feel like I could write a more detailed review.

One thing about the review is that the person wasn't sure wherever to list Caterpie as either Mid or Low, I'm in the same conflict. What do you guys think?

lol I wrote that! That was like the second write-up I did in this thread, although clearly my older write-ups aren't as good as my more recent ones.

Yeah do whatever you want with it. Sometimes I think I may have been a bit unfair about it. It is useful, although it is a pain to grind up to Butterfree with Confusion (level 12 in RB and level 10 in Yellow) and lags towards the end of the game. On the other hand, early Psychic moves are nice and Sleep Powder makes Abra easier to obtain, which I guess is important since it is one of the best pokemon in the game.

Normally for pokemon that I think are on the borderline between 2 tiers I prefer to default to the lower tier and that's why I selected Low for it in the end, but if you want to put it in Mid then I'm fine with that.

[Naix]

I can rewrite Caterpie, as it was one of the Pokemon I used when testing Ekans and Red Krabby. Of course, you can do it if you want, Hemp Man, as you requested to do so first.

[Hemp Man]

OK, you can rewrite Caterpie since you've used it more recently.

After much consideration I'd probably say Low is better, but I'll wait and here what Naix thinks.

[Naix]

Okay, thanks! Here it is, sorry I took so long!

Caterpie rewrite

---

-Caterpie - Low Tier
-Availability: Caterpie are quite easy to obtain. They're indigenous to Viridian Forest and are quite common there in all games except for Red. Caterpie can be caught at level 3 in Red, level 3 through 5 in Blue, and level 3 through 6 in Yellow. Their first evolution, Metapod, can also be caught in Viridian Forest, but their only move is Harden, making them completely useless until they evolve to Butterfree and learn Confusion. Speaking of evolving, Caterpie evolve at level 7 and then level 10.
-Stats: Butterfree's stats, while great for the first portion of the game, are unimpressive in the long term, with its best stats being Special and Speed, neither of which are particularly impressive. Being your garden variety caterpillar and crysalis, Caterpie and Metapod are far from threatening at any point in the game.
-Movepool: Something important to remember is that Butterfree learns all of its level up moves ,save for Psybeam, earlier in Yellow than in Red or Blue. For example, Butterfree learns Confusion immediately after evolving in Yellow, while it has to wait until level 12 in Red and Blue. It gets access to Sleep Powder and Stun Spore at a level similar to Bellsprout and Oddish, in other words before level 20. After Confusion and the powders, Butterfree's level up movepool stagnates, learning nothing of note until level 32 (level 34 in Yellow), when it learns Psybeam. A TM move you will definitely want to teach Butterfree is Psychic. It's Butterfree's most powerful attack in most circumstances, and as such it is highly recommended that you teach it to Butterfree. Another move Butterfree would appreciate learning would be Mega Drain, as while it isn't as powerful as Psychic, it helps Butterfree against the late-game Water-types and assists it when fighting certain later bosses.
-Power: Caterpie's not exactly the most dangerous tool in the shed until it evolves and learns Confusion. After that, though, it does quite well until S.S. Anne, which is where its power starts to decline, and it becomes reliant on Psychic to deal damage to its opponents, as Confusion won't be OHKOing that isn't a Fighting-type. Psybeam helps, but it doesn't grab any notable KOes Confusion doesn't outside of Koffing, Zubat, and other base form Poison-types.
-Type: Bug/Flying is easily one of the worst typings for a Pokemon to have in Generation I from a defensive standpoint, as it's weak to the STABs of the common Poison-types and Flying-types. It isn't much better offensively for Butterfree in particular, as it's primarily a special attacker and as such can't use its STAB to good use, even if it knew any.
-Match-ups:
--Brock: In Yellow, Butterfree is one of only four Pokemon who can beat Brock reliably and without worry. Due to the fact that it has to wait until level 12 to learn Confusion in Red and Blue means it isn't as likely to do well against him.
--Misty: Butterfree can take a Bubblebeam from her Starmie and paralyze it or put it to sleep, but it can't do much else.
--Lt. Surge: Due to its typing, Lt. Surge's Raichu hits Butterfree super effectively, frazzling it.
--Erika: By this time, Butterfree should know Psychic. With it, Butterfree can defeat Erika handily, thanks to her entire team (save for Tangela who isn't much of a threat) being hit super effectively by it.
--Koga: Despite being weak to Psychic, his Pokemon can withstand a blast and respond with Sludge. In Yellow, his Koffing, Muk, and Weezing are replaced with 3 Venonat and a Venomoth. Because Butterfree is weak to Poison-type attacks, Toxic should be the only move Koga's Pokemon would use on it, but keep in mind Psychic's mere 10 PP.
--Sabrina: Much like with Misty, Butterfree can status her Pokemon, but not much else.
--Blaine: By virtue of typing (and stats), Butterfree loses here.
--Giovanni: Butterfree beats Giovanni in Red and Blue, but only if it knows Mega Drain. Psychic definitely helps it, but it isn't necessary in this scenario. In Yellow, Persian gives Butterfree trouble, and Nidoking and Nidoqueen both have a new technique under their belts: Thunder.
--Lorelei: Lorelei's Pokemon hit Butterfree super effectively, making this match-up clear.
--Bruno: This match-up is the opposite of Lorelei's, provided Butterfree knows Psychic and Mega Drain. The former allows it to beat his Fighting-types and the latter lets it crush his Onix.
--Agatha: Even with Psychic, Butterfree has trouble here due to her Pokemon being faster and having superior Special.
--Lance: All of his Pokemon have Hyper Beam, and considering Butterfree's paper-thin defenses...
--Rival: In Red and Blue, Butterfree can take on Rhydon, Exeggutor, and Venusaur, while Exeggutor is the only Pokemon on his team in Yellow that is seriously threatened by Butterfree.
-Additional Comments: Without a doubt, what holds Butterfree back from being a force to be reckoned with long-term is a combination of lack of STAB and the posession of a merely average Special stat. Because of those 2 factors, Butterfree has a disappointing power output in the game's later stages. That said, Butterfree is a very capable early-game Pokemon. Its access to Sleep Powder and Psychic-type moves, which have superb type coverage, make it a valuable asset before your team gets filled out, the former making it great for catching the rest of your team, notably Pokemon like Abra. Butterfree is notably better in Yellow, due to its positive match-up against Brock as well as its earlier access to Confusion, but that doesn't change the fact that it still has power issues as the game progresses. Another thing to keep in mind is that outside of status, Butterfree is largely dependant on TMs to defeat the later bosses, and is TM hungry in general after Rock Tunnel.

As usual, if there's anything that seems odd or is missing, feel free to point it out.

EDIT: Removed the "besides Gust in Yellow" bit. Thanks for the catch! Also, while Caterpie can be caught at Routes 24 and 25 in Red and Blue, they only appear at level 7 (level 8 at Route 25), a lower level than anything else in the route. Because of that, I'd say Viridian Forest Caterpie is definitely better.

[Longfellow]

Correction: "...as it's primarily a special attacker and as such can't use its STAB to good use, even if it knew any besides Gust in Yellow." Gust is actually Normal in 1st gen, so not even that :/

Caterpie is weird in that it's bad at doing what conventional wisdom recommends, which is raising it to beat Brock if you chose Charmander as your starter. It gets the job done, of course, but the grinding... I wonder if it's better to catch it north of Cerulean instead of in Viridian Forest. Those early-game Nidoran/Zubat/Ekans are nice to kill with Confusion but getting Caterpie to level 12 before Mt. Moon is unbearable.

[TM13IceBeam]

I do remember something being said about Charmander with Ember capable of beating Brock anyway because Geodude and Onix have really bad special. It's kind of a toss-up, since you do take a lot longer to beat it with just Charmander instead of using Butterfree. You don't really have much options in this regard though since Mankey and the Nidos don't get early Low Kick/Double Kick...

[Longfellow]

Charmander can win consistently with some help (Potions or teammates) at level 11/12. You could get him up to level 14 or even evolve him if you want to be sure (incidentally, due to Charmander's parabolic exp. rate it hits level 14 faster than Caterpie hits 12). Charmeleon wins almost as quickly as Butterfree whereas unevolved Charmander is in for a long battle and lots of Growl while Onix Bides. Still an easy win though.

Caterpie's problem is it can't train itself. In Blue at least it can beat up other Caterpie, though it's very slow and you'll need to go to the Pokécenter a lot. In Red it gets whupped by Weedle. The only way to speed up the training is to do the switch-out method, at which point you might as well give Charmander that extra experience and have Caterpie catch up after Brock. It's not worth spending an hour to grind Caterpie just to say that the Brock fight took fewer turns than with Charmander.

For beating Brock in RB I'd say it goes Squirtle > Bulbasaur > Charmander > NidoranM >= Caterpie (might be close to NidoranM in Blue) > everyone else.

BTW I did a little testing. A pretty good way to train Caterpie is to switch it in on Rival 2, Brock, and all the Bug Catchers on Route 3. Let the pre-Confusion Butterfree switch in for a couple other kills on Route 3 and it should be done grinding by Mt. Moon.

[Hemp Man]

In Yellow, you forgot to say Giovanni's Rhydon has Rock Slide, Butterfree can beat Dugtrio though.

And Charmander can beat Brock with Ember.

[NoUserName]

Wouldn't Caterpie > NidoranM in RB? Nidoran in RB don't learn Double Kick until level 43.
NidoranM can win with Leer+Horn Attack+Potions/Growl support, but it might take a lot of unnecessarial time.

[Longfellow]

The time NidoranM loses in the Brock fight is more than compensated by the time saved leveling it up.

[Hemp Man]

Speaking of time, Charmander may take longer to beat Brock but your save file will probably have as much time as when you use Bulbasaur or Squirtle. Mainly because Charmander easily plows through Virdiran Forest with Ember.

[Zowayix]

^And quite a bit of Route 3 and Routes 24/25 while you're at it.
(I'm recalling this from the early days of TASing R/B, and Charmander was determined to be overall faster than Squirtle for this very reason.)

[TM13IceBeam]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Speaking of time, Charmander may take longer to beat Brock but your save file will probably have as much time as when you use Bulbasaur or Squirtle. Mainly because Charmander easily plows through Virdiran Forest with Ember.

This would basically mean RB Caterpie is completely pointless, no? The utility kind of falls off really quickly after the first gym and his movepool isn't anything big to speak of other than confusion/psybeam and the powders (which aren't that useful overall, due to lack of compoundeyes abuse).

Yellow Butterfree is still useful though, since Confusion comes immediately and Pikachu ugh, although it's still frustrating trying to train it and it still ends up getting benched by misty/surge anyway

[Longfellow]

Caterpie could be worse. Its Psychic and Grass moves are weak but they do hit half the game super-effectively. Even at 75% Sleep Powder helps in boss battles. IIRC it's actually good at Mt. Moon and Nugget Bridge.

[Nyara]

I'm actually testing Caterpie on a Speed Run on the Yellow Version, it did ok as a Metapod LV7 against Brook, it can just outlast any of the Brook's Pokémon with Harden + Tackle, but it needs Tail Whip support to don't take too many turns, for good call, you have too many options for Leer and Tail Whip than that is not a hard task. Also, in order to any starter to combat Brook's weak point (it's special defense), they need to being solo party, or otherwise you need about 2 hours of gridding to make them ready for the battle, but I'm assuming 3 Pokémon minium, as your starter will have hard times beating all alone (mostly for the PP, and returing to the Pokémon Center for each 2-3 Trainer Battles is not cool).

Caterpie may seen weak, but it's just as weak as all the Pokémon you have at the moment, and when it evolves to Metapod, it actually have better overall defense than all your unevolved Pokémon, so, it's not really hard to train it to Butterfree. Of course, I catched a level 6 Caterpie, so, it doesn't really need too much experience to evolve.

Mankey and Spearow are really great at the early point, too, Mankey can't man-handle Brook with Low Kick (Geodude and Onix usually beat him 1vs1), but with the enough support from it's friends, he can do the job done, but he needs too many experience to learn Low Kick for my like, I almost gived him more than the half of the trainers from Viridian Forest and I still needed to grind some minutes, and Metapod with Growl/Leer support just worked faster and better than training Mankey. Spearow is great for having a Flying STAB, hitting super effectives is cool on the early game.

[Naix]

Originally Posted by Fat Nyara

I'm actually testing Caterpie on a Speed Run on the Yellow Version, it did ok as a Metapod LV7 against Brook, it can just outlast any of the Brook's Pokémon with Harden + Tackle, but it needs Tail Whip support to don't take too many turns, for good call, you have too many options for Leer and Tail Whip than that is not a hard task. Also, in order to any starter to combat Brook's weak point (it's special defense), they need to being solo party, or otherwise you need about 2 hours of gridding to make them ready for the battle, but I'm assuming 3 Pokémon minium, as your starter will have hard times beating all alone (mostly for the PP, and returing to the Pokémon Center for each 2-3 Trainer Battles is not cool).

First of all, I wouldn't consider "outlasting" Brock's Pokemon a good method to beating him in a speedrun. Another thing I'd like to say is that perhaps the most efficient (in terms of experience gain) team size at the time you fight Brock would be 2, as just 1 would be overleveled and (as shown by your playthrough) 3 means you might be having problems with getting your Pokemon up to par for Brock.

Caterpie may seen weak, but it's just as weak as all the Pokémon you have at the moment, and when it evolves to Metapod, it actually have better overall defense than all your unevolved Pokémon, so, it's not really hard to train it to Butterfree.

Even though it might not be too far behind in terms of raw base stats, keep in mind that most Pokemon obtained before fighting Brock know STAB moves either upon capture or within 5 levels of catching them. Also, while Metapod indeed has the highest base Defense of any Pokemon (save for Squirtle) at that time, also keep in mind it has the lowest base Attack, which when combined with its lack of STAB means it's hitting for squat.

Mankey and Spearow are really great at the early point, too, Mankey can't man-handle Brook with Low Kick (Geodude and Onix usually beat him 1vs1), but with the enough support from it's friends, he can do the job done, but he needs too many experience to learn Low Kick for my like.

Keep in mind that Mankey needs less experience to learn Low Kick (learned at level 9) than Butterfree to learn Confusion (level 10) or Nidoran to learn Double Kick (level 12), making it the best option for dealing with Brock regardless. Also, it's not like Mankey can't fend for itself until then, as its lack of STAB is mitigated somewhat by the highest Attack stat of any Pokemon obtained prior to Brock (Something to remember is that Mankey can be caught at level 5, which means it only needs 4 levels to learn Low Kick). Another thing I don't get is "Mankey can't man-handle Brook with Low Kick". Why wouldn't it? In addition to great Attack (at least at the time), it also has STAB on an attack that hits both of Brock's Pokemon super effectively.

[Nyara]

I'm assuming more than 1 Pokémon, that is, yes, it's not the (let's solo the game for make it really fast!), just a fun speed run to pass the time. Also, outlass things on RBY may sound "slow", but it's a lot faster than train a Pokémon, I beated Brook on just 5 minutes with Metapod (Tackle) + Pikachu (Tail Whip + Growl), the turns happens SO fast on RBY that doesn't matter if you use all your PP against a boss, derp. While I needed of 19 minutes to find, catch, and train Mankey until level 9, while Metapod just needed 11 minutes, incluiding the battle with Brook.

And Mankey can't man-handle them alone, he needs of 3 Low Kicks at level 10 to beat Geodude and of 4 Low Kicks to beat Onix, while Geodude just need of 2-3 tackle to put him out from comission and Onix just need to use WHATEVER of it's moves (less screech) once to destroy Mankey, so, yeah, Mankey can land a Super Effective, but Geodude and Onix have so high defenses than you can't break them fast enough, and Mankey is really frail.

[Longfellow]

Just a random observation: teamwork matters more against Brock than against any boss. I've noticed Charmander at level 10-12 really likes to switch out against Brock's Onix to reset Screeches. And some Pokémon really like the Tail Whips, Leers, and Growls that other Pokémon can provide them.

[atsync]

I have used a Low Kick Mankey in Yellow to beat Brock several times recently and it swept him easily every time without any support. So yes, I can say from experience that it DOES man-handle him alone just fine, thank you very much.

Anyway, I decided to go through the tier list again to see if I could spot anything that seemed odd. For the most part (disregarding stuff like Growlithe at the moment which have already been brought up and will probably be changed at some point anyway) I think the list is good, but I have 2 things to say.

Warning: I'm about to contradict stuff I've said in the past by bringing these up, so bear with me.

Firstly, I'm wondering if Spearow should be bumped up to High again. I made arguments before to put Spearow in Mid and I stand by everything I said about it back then, but I was specifically talking about the Spearow caught near the start of the game. One thing I think I overlooked is that you can catch Spearow west of Celadon City, along with Doduo (Fearow can be caught in Yellow too, although it is rare and Spearow evolves soon after catching it so it isn't worth looking for it). Now, we have put Doduo in High, and given that Spearow can be caught under the same circumstances, I'm not really sure about whether Spearow should be below Doduo. If we wanted to compare them, I guess it comes down to evolving earlier (Fearow) vs. having more power, slightly earlier Drill Peck and Tri Attack (Dodrio) and I would probably just use Doduo, but ignoring this comparison, would a Spearow caught west of Celadon for the purpose of beating Erika be good enough for High? It probably serves the same purpose as Dodrio overall even if it is inferior to it.

Secondly, I think we should separate Yellow Psyduck from RB Psyduck, and put Yellow Psyduck in Low. I did say before that it wasn't worth the time to separate them, but that was when we were being conservative about splitting entries by version (I think the starters and Machop/trade Machamp were the only ones with separate entries at the time). Since we have now done it for Growlithe, Farfetch'd and Krabby, we might as well do it for Psyduck as well. I mean, it's so underleveled in Yellow...

Thoughts?

[Naix]

About Spearow, in addition to what you mentioned, it comes at the exact same levels as Doduo at Route 16 in Red and Blue, not to mention it's nearly twice as common. This, in addition to its earlier evolution (which you mentioned), means it's better than Doduo early on, at least at first glance. Keep in mind, though, that Doduo learns Drill Peck at level 30 as opposed to Fearow's 34, and Doduo also has near-immediate access to a one-turn attack with solid base power in Tri Attack while Fearow has to use either the two-turn Fly or the inconsistent Fury Attack until level 34, by which point you should almost be at Fuchsia City by which point you would have a Dodrio in your possession if you went for Doduo instead.

So I'd guess despite evolving earlier, Doduo still has the edge over Route 16 Spearow due to having a consistent attack that doesn't take two turns to use, not to mention Fearow's and Doduo's Attack stats are pretty similar (90 and 85, respectively). I will concede though, that Fearow's bulk is easily better than Doduo's (even then it's still nothing to write home about), so I'd say Spearow is comfortable where it is in Mid.


As for Yellow Psyduck, I guess it could have an entry if somebody wanted to give it one, but that would most likely mean potentially having to do the same for Yellow Voltorb and Red/Blue Magnemite. I understand why it had to be done for Red Krabby (specifically, because Blue/Yellow Krabby was in High which meant that Red Krabby might've been interpreted by people looking through the list as either Mid or Low), but for cases where a Pokemon in Mid Tier (in other words the second-lowest) in one game and clearly worse in another, (I don't think) an entry would be necessary (outside of completion's sake) as it would be obvious as to what its placement would be.

[atsync]

Originally Posted by Fat Naix

About Spearow, in addition to what you mentioned, it comes at the exact same levels as Doduo at Route 16 in Red and Blue, not to mention it's nearly twice as common. This, in addition to its earlier evolution (which you mentioned), means it's better than Doduo early on, at least at first glance. Keep in mind, though, that Doduo learns Drill Peck at level 30 as opposed to Fearow's 34, and Doduo also has near-immediate access to a one-turn attack with solid base power in Tri Attack while Fearow has to use either the two-turn Fly or the inconsistent Fury Attack until level 34, by which point you should almost be at Fuchsia City by which point you would have a Dodrio in your possession if you went for Doduo instead.

So I'd guess despite evolving earlier, Doduo still has the edge over Route 16 Spearow due to having a consistent attack that doesn't take two turns to use, not to mention Fearow's and Doduo's Attack stats are pretty similar (90 and 85, respectively). I will concede though, that Fearow's bulk is easily better than Doduo's (even then it's still nothing to write home about), so I'd say Spearow is comfortable where it is in Mid.

Those are just reasons why Doduo is better overall, which I'm aware of. But being worse than Doduo doesn't mean that Spearow can't be High, which is what I'm trying to get at. I dunno, I just see Route 16 Spearow as a powerful and fast attacker with STAB Flying and Normal attacks (it has to use Double-Edge though) that comes at a convenient time, and that seems ok on paper. Maybe I'll test it if I get time...

Originally Posted by Fat Naix

As for Yellow Psyduck, I guess it could have an entry if somebody wanted to give it one, but that would most likely mean potentially having to do the same for Yellow Voltorb and Red/Blue Magnemite. I understand why it had to be done for Red Krabby (specifically, because Blue/Yellow Krabby was in High which meant that Red Krabby might've been interpreted by people looking through the list as either Mid or Low), but for cases where a Pokemon in Mid Tier (in other words the second-lowest) in one game and clearly worse in another, (I don't think) an entry would be necessary (outside of completion's sake) as it would be obvious as to what its placement would be.

I don't think Magnemite and Voltorb would get split because they are Mid regardless of version (imo), even if one version is better than the other. I mean, Electabuzz is in Mid, so why would Yellow Voltorb and Red/Blue Magnemite get dropped to Low?

I wouldn't say the tier placement would be "obvious" to someone with limited experience with 1st gen. Besides, the fact that we have already split certain pokemon up by version would imply to players that anything without split entries is in the same tier regardless of version, which I don't think is true with Psyduck. But I guess you disagree.

[TM13IceBeam]

If R16 Spearow is sufficient as a Doduo clone (i.e. it's capable of killing the same things that Doduo can with the same amount of support), I don't see any reason why Spearow shouldn't be ranked High. The only thing Spearow lacks from Dodrio is Tri Attack afaik (and slightly worse stats), but Fearow still manages with Double-Edge.