The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Hmm.

Now that I think of it, I do think Mola is worthy of C-Rank placement. It is quite decent in RU; it is a bulky water who is also a WishPasser. Alomomola has access to Regenerator; Alomoonguss could work in RU as well. Alomomola can wall the living hell out of Entei, Emboar, Aggron (I guess), Druddigon, Hitmonlee?, Absol, etc. It's a good teammate for Roselia, as previously stated, fully healing it with Wish, allowing it to do its Spike-stacking job much more easily.

Of course, as it was with NU when Snover was there, Mola is a good absorber of hail. Then again, Mola still has its faults in mass setup fodder, no offensive presence, weaknesses to Grass and Electric. And of course, there are other bulky waters out there. But Mola has a niche, and the flaws that make it C. It also has competition as a bulky water. And it is definitely not as bad as Sandslash and Dusknoir (lol at both of them) I think Mola should be C.

[NfskMjmMal]

I agree with Alomomola at C. 267 HP wishes are nothing to laugh at, often bringing sweepers or other pokes with no form of recovery in the red back up to full or close to it. With Heal Bell support, it's a great physical wall that has many chances to Toxic its opponents. I might use Scald over Waterfall in RU. I know, slightly worse Special Attack and pseudo-dual status, but RU has more fearsome physical walls, and some specially defensive pokes, like the Hitmons, would cripple to a burn. I use it in NU and it's amazing. I don't see why C isn't fit for it in RU, even though I've never used it in RU.

I'm currently testing Haunter in RU. So far it's working great. With my large sample size of one battle so far, it wrecked and single-handedly made my opponent forfeit. Haunter-Aggron core seems great and I can't wait to try it more. Again, I use Haunter in NU, and it's awesome. I'll probably put it in B or C.

Edit:

I would like to propose Haunter for C Rank.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the RU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in RU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

I think this fits Haunter. Haunter's annoying Sub-Disable set can be a real weapon if used correctly, but of course, there's that notable flaw of Haunter dying to like everything it isn't immune to or quad resists. Haunter has lot of potential, it just needs an opportunity, really.

[col49]

Geez, I haven't been posting here, like, at all recently '~' Anywho, I've been using one certain 'mon for a little bit now, and I suppose I feel confident enough in my knowledge of it to post a little bit about it x_x



Haunter has, in my experiences, been a very interesting an useful Pokemon in the RU metagame. Specifically I have used the SubDisable and Choice Scarf sets, so I'll give a little personal insight into both real quick.

SubDisable is, as one imagine, a pretty annoying 'mon to play. It's cool immunities allow it to completely wall a bunch of 'mons relying on a singular move to hit Ghost-types, and being able to completely shut down slower Choice users is a really cool perk. 95 Base Speed, while not being amazing, is certainly respectable for this role, and allows it to outpace common Choice users such as Entei to check it effectively. STAB Sludge Bomb is also a nice boon for it, allowing it to passively wear down specially defensive Pokemon with poison damage. For this reason it actually matches up decently with and spin-blocks Cryogonal, being able Disable its Ice Beam and proceed to fish for the poison, which while not immediately beating Cryogonal does shut it down and hurt its longevity, effectively preventing it from spinning and easing the task of breaking through it for other specially based attackers, which makes it pretty cool for stacking special attackers on a team.

Choice Scarf, despite my reservations about it, is a very cool set. Haunter's solid Special Attack, Speed, and fairly flexible movepool make it very capable of serving as a versatile revenge-killer. Despite facing some competition for Rotom-N, Haunter has some distinct traits setting him apart. Poison sub-typing is a nice boon for Haunter, allowing it to switch into Grass-types such as Sceptile and Lilligant to decent effect, take a singular hit and KO with Sludge Bomb. The difference between 91 and 95, while being somewhat insignificant while Scarfed (only really means the chance to speed tie stuff like Primeape), is quite significant post-Trick, and means the chance to hit things like Drapion and Jynx. Moreover, access to utility moves like Destiny Bond are really cool for Haunter, allowing him to more concretely take out a Pokemon if played tactfully.

That being said, Haunter is a fairly useful Pokemon in RU. It can holds its own v.a nice chunk of Pokemon, and it actually has enough options such that it isn't totally one-dimensional. However, it's obvious frailty, inability to spin-block Kabutops at all (or offensive Cryo, for that matter), and only moderately high Speed stat all hinder it's performance in the tier, and make him mediocre under most circumstances. However, by playing to its strengths and using it under the right conditions Haunter is a really solid and useful 'mon. That being said, I'd have to agree with NfskMjmMal and say that Haunter would be best suited for C-tier :]

[Nails]

<@Molk|afk> windsong nails if you want goth on the list bring it up <sic>
<&Hockey_Red_Panda> ok i will post goth for c rank
<@Molk|afk> k ty

goth for c rank

[Molk]

Ok, i have nothing better to do so i guess ill update this :>.

So here are the changes that i madeeee

Ditto down from B rank -----> C rank

Medicham up from C rank -----> B rank


After some discussion and playtesting, i decided to keep both aggron and bouffalant in B rank, they are both great Pokemon obviously, but i feel that their individual flaws make them fit into B rank more than A rank, although both are obviously some of the best Pokemon in B rank, which is a plus for sure!

Also, here are the new proposed changes!

Alomomola up from D rank -----> C rank

Haunter up from untested -----> C rank

Adding Gothorita to untested.

Im pretty indifferent on Haunter and Gothorita, i have little to no playing experience with either of them so i really dont know how good or terrible they really are. I explained my reasoning for promoting Alomomola in an earlier post, so i think you all know what my thoughts on her are :P.

I might edit this post later with a certain Pokemon i think is deserving of a rank if i can remember, so keep your eyes peeled!

[DrRobotnik]

I would like to propose moving Moltres down from S-rank to A-rank.

It has multiple weaknesses (mainly rock) that it dies pretty much instantly to due to sub-par minimum defenses and HP, making it risky to switch into and not very safe against Pokemon that outspeed it, due to said weaknesses and no priority moves. Even though being almost completely dependent on the absence of Stealth Rock should be enough to disqualify it from "low risk high reward" and "very few flaws", this clinches it.

Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres:

• Rotom-N
• Primeape
• Electivire
• Entei
• Manectric
• Galvantula
• Durant
• Archeops
• Cinccino
• Aerodactyl
• Slowking

Sorry for the small post, I'll make it up by posting a suggestion for a new Pokemon later.

[Meru]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

I would like to propose moving Moltres down from S-rank to A-rank.

It has multiple weaknesses (mainly rock) that it dies pretty much instantly to due to sub-par minimum defenses and HP, making it risky to switch into and not very safe against Pokemon that outspeed it, due to said weaknesses and no priority moves. Even though being almost completely dependent on the absence of Stealth Rock should be enough to disqualify it from "low risk high reward" and "very few flaws", this clinches it.

Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres:

• Rotom-N
• Primeape
• Electivire
• Entei
• Manectric
• Galvantula
• Durant
• Archeops
• Cinccino
• Aerodactyl
• Slowking

Sorry for the small post, I'll make it up by posting a suggestion for a new Pokemon later.

I second this, and also want to point out another flaw of Moltres: its reliance on less than optimal accuracy moves. Hurricane's 70% accuracy and Fire Blast's 85% accuracy can fail you when needed, winding up with a dead or statused Moltres.

[NidoJosh]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

I would like to propose moving Moltres down from S-rank to A-rank.

It has multiple weaknesses (mainly rock) that it dies pretty much instantly to due to sub-par minimum defenses and HP, making it risky to switch into and not very safe against Pokemon that outspeed it, due to said weaknesses and no priority moves. Even though being almost completely dependent on the absence of Stealth Rock should be enough to disqualify it from "low risk high reward" and "very few flaws", this clinches it.

Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres:

• Rotom-N
• Primeape
• Electivire
• Entei
• Manectric
• Galvantula
• Durant
• Archeops
• Cinccino
• Aerodactyl
• Slowking

Sorry for the small post, I'll make it up by posting a suggestion for a new Pokemon later.

I definitely agree with this
I've never been a big fan of Moltres due to its crippling weakness to the omnipresence of stealth rocks. It most definitely packs huge power but there are other choices for a powerful special attackers that are not effected so much by Stealth Rocks.

Originally Posted by Fat Molk

Also, here are the new proposed changes!

Alomomola up from D rank -----> C rank

Haunter up from untested -----> C rank

Alomomola is definitely worth a C Rank in my opinion. As explained in your lengthy post before, it has a humongous HP Stat capable of taking hits, as well as being able to wish pass huge amounts of HP

I haven't really tried Haunter in RU (but I know it's very effective in NU..) so I think I'll test it out for now and see how it fairs!

[BKC]

You guys are nuts. Moltres is an excellent mon even with the SR weak, since once it gets in safely it can still blast you with its ridiculously strong attacks regardless of health, and it can also Roost off the damage. There's also the fact that if you play well you won't even have a problem with SR since it's fairly easy to spin with Kabutops.

[DrRobotnik]

See: list of Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres, bad accuracy STAB.

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

See: list of Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres, bad accuracy STAB.

List of mons that kill moltres easily prove nothing. A lot of mons can eliminate Terrakion easily in OU( Scizor[oh, it loses to the #1 most used mon in its tier. the mons you posted for Moltres are not even close to the top],Toxicroak, Landorus-T, Latios, Latias, Tornadus, Venusaur in sun, Stoutland in sand, Breloom, Lilligant in sun, Starmie, Espeon, Alakazam, Dugtrio traps it, and Gliscor as long terrakion is not using Rock Gem +2 stone edge), and you see no one doubting its position as S because it is so hard to come in like it happens with Moltres.

And the only bad accuracy stab is Hurricane. Moltres still gets most of the kills fire blast does with flamethrower(the only really relevant kill it misses is defensive cryo, but that dies after sr anyway).

[col49]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

I would like to propose moving Moltres down from S-rank to A-rank.

It has multiple weaknesses (mainly rock) that it dies pretty much instantly to due to sub-par minimum defenses and HP, making it risky to switch into and not very safe against Pokemon that outspeed it, due to said weaknesses and no priority moves. Even though being almost completely dependent on the absence of Stealth Rock should be enough to disqualify it from "low risk high reward" and "very few flaws", this clinches it.

Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres:

• Rotom-N
• Primeape
• Electivire
• Entei
• Manectric
• Galvantula
• Durant
• Archeops
• Cinccino
• Aerodactyl
• Slowking

Sorry for the small post, I'll make it up by posting a suggestion for a new Pokemon later.

Ok, so I'm going to have to adamantly disagree with this. First and fore-mostly, 90 / 90 / 85 Defenses are far from "sub-par minimum" (which I'm pretty sure doesn't make any grammatical sense, but that's neither here nor there :x), and while it is devalued by its Stealth Rock weakness access to Roost mitigates this to an extent.

The argument about saying its hard to switch in is honestly not particularly strong, as despite its Stealth Rock weakness you overlook the fact that it is really easy to spin in RU, as the good spinners of the tier (Kabutops and Cryogonal) essentially always beat Ghost-types with tactful play. Moreover, its not as though Moltres, while certainly not switching in incredibly easily, can find opportunities to come in on common Pokemon such as Gallade, Tangrowth / Amoonguss (post Sleep fodder), Escavalier and so forth without much trouble as long as you keep Stealth Rock off the field. As a matter of fact, Moltres can switch in on less offensive variants of these Pokemon regardless of SR being on the field or not. If you think that once SR is up Moltres becomes an instant non-issue, then obviously you don't have enough experience with or against the 'mon, and shouldn't be attempting to categorize it in the first place.

Being vulnerable to faster Pokemon and having distinct weaknesses is no grounds for being a bad Pokemon. Escavalier is slower than a ton of Pokemon, and is incredibly vulnerable to Fire-type attacks, yet he is still one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Should we relegate him to A because Entei can outspeed and OHKO with Flare Blitz?

Moreover, this list is the biggest example of bubble logic I've seen in a while. Only 2 of the Pokemon you list can actually switch into Moltres, being Aerodactyl and Slowking, with the rest being completely devastated by its attacks, with everything barring Entei and Archeops being OHKOed by Fire Blast, the former of whom can't outspeed anyway and is OHKOed by Hurricane after SR damage and the latter being put it Defeatist range, completely neutering it. That being said, to be able to get in and threaten Moltres the player would either need to sac a 'mon to bring it in or switch cleverly. A Pokemon that forces that sort of scenario surely sounds like a top-tier Pokemon, no?

Sorry if this comes across as hostile (I don't mean to be honest ;-;) but I feel as though this argument is grounded more on hunches than actual application '~'

edit: Trop beat me to the list point a little bit, but still =(

[oSeasons]

Durant is extremely OP! Once it sets up hone claws, it can easily sweep your opponent's entire team as long as they don't have a 100% health qwilfish :I

[DrRobotnik]

Name one other Pokemon in S Rank that has a weakness so major that it requires direct intervention from another Pokemon just to be able to be switched in (inb4 "losing half your health on switching in is no big deal").

@TropiOUs your entire statement is "no it isn't because [completely different Pokemon in a completely different metagame]".

@col49 You missed the point of, like, every word I typed. I'm just going to very quickly list the important stuff you got wrong to save time:

• The part about being hard to switch in is not only referring to the stealth rocks. It's not hard at all to predict when it's going to be called in, so you can just use a water/electric/rock move then. Especially if you just spun, as you could easily just do an electric/rock move and kill either Kabutops/Cryogonal or Moltres.
  
• The point of the list is referring to Pokemon that are already in. These Pokemon easily outspeed, or in Slowking's case, tank a hit from it and OHKO it with no problem. Even if it does get one kill, that's it, especially because it can't afford to keep switching in and out because stealth rock and repreatedly taking hits normally.
  
• I'm talking exclusively from my experience, I have never been killed by a Moltres and I've encountered many.

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

Name one other Pokemon in S Rank that has a weakness so major that it requires direct intervention from another Pokemon just to be able to be switched in (inb4 "losing half your health on switching in is no big deal").

How is this stopping Moltres from being S when the best spinner(kabutops) has amazing synergy with it and is minimal support when they take down each other counters easily? While still being able to wreck stuff with only 50% of its health easily. Moltres also gets this wondeful move called roost. This move is used by ALL of the good sets, and Moltres is fast enough to scare plenty of things and find a time to roost, making Stealth Rock a minor issue if used by someone smarter than a rock.

[DrRobotnik]

Originally Posted by Fat TropiOUs

How is this stopping Moltres from being S when the best spinner(kabutops) has amazing synergy with it and is minimal support when they take down each other counters easily?

What is the Electric type?

Originally Posted by Fat TropiOUs

While still being able to wreck stuff with only 50% of its health easily.

While dying easily to almost everything that outspeeds it at that point.

Originally Posted by Fat TropiOUs

Moltres also gets this wondeful move called roost. This move is used by ALL of the good sets, and Moltres is fast enough to scare plenty of things and find a time to roost,

I love free turns, lets me switch into a Pokemon that's good against it or just outspeed it and hit hard if the one I have in can do that.

Originally Posted by Fat TropiOUs

making Stealth Rock a minor issue if used by someone smarter than a rock.

"If you don't agree with my position you're stupid and bad at the game."

You never answered my question, by the way.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat col49

Ok, so I'm going to have to adamantly disagree with this. First and fore-mostly, 90 / 90 / 85 Defenses are far from "sub-par minimum" (which I'm pretty sure doesn't make any grammatical sense, but that's neither here nor there :x), and while it is devalued by its Stealth Rock weakness access to Roost mitigates this to an extent.

The argument about saying its hard to switch in is honestly not particularly strong, as despite its Stealth Rock weakness you overlook the fact that it is really easy to spin in RU, as the good spinners of the tier (Kabutops and Cryogonal) essentially always beat Ghost-types with tactful play. Moreover, its not as though Moltres, while certainly not switching in incredibly easily, can find opportunities to come in on common Pokemon such as Gallade, Tangrowth / Amoonguss (post Sleep fodder), Escavalier and so forth without much trouble as long as you keep Stealth Rock off the field. As a matter of fact, Moltres can switch in on less offensive variants of these Pokemon regardless of SR being on the field or not. If you think that once SR is up Moltres becomes an instant non-issue, then obviously you don't have enough experience with or against the 'mon, and shouldn't be attempting to categorize it in the first place.

Being vulnerable to faster Pokemon and having distinct weaknesses is no grounds for being a bad Pokemon. Escavalier is slower than a ton of Pokemon, and is incredibly vulnerable to Fire-type attacks, yet he is still one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Should we relegate him to A because Entei can outspeed and OHKO with Flare Blitz?

Moreover, this list is the biggest example of bubble logic I've seen in a while. Only 2 of the Pokemon you list can actually switch into Moltres, being Aerodactyl and Slowking, with the rest being completely devastated by its attacks, with everything barring Entei and Archeops being OHKOed by Fire Blast, the former of whom can't outspeed anyway and is OHKOed by Hurricane after SR damage and the latter being put it Defeatist range, completely neutering it. That being said, to be able to get in and threaten Moltres the player would either need to sac a 'mon to bring it in or switch cleverly. A Pokemon that forces that sort of scenario surely sounds like a top-tier Pokemon, no?

Sorry if this comes across as hostile (I don't mean to be honest ;-;) but I feel as though this argument is grounded more on hunches than actual application '~'

edit: Trop beat me to the list point a little bit, but still =(

Originally Posted by Fat TropiOUs

List of mons that kill moltres easily prove nothing. A lot of mons can eliminate Terrakion easily in OU( Scizor[oh, it loses to the #1 most used mon in its tier. the mons you posted for Moltres are not even close to the top],Toxicroak, Landorus-T, Latios, Latias, Tornadus, Venusaur in sun, Stoutland in sand, Breloom, Lilligant in sun, Starmie, Espeon, Alakazam, Dugtrio traps it, and Gliscor as long terrakion is not using Rock Gem +2 stone edge), and you see no one doubting its position as S because it is so hard to come in like it happens with Moltres.

And the only bad accuracy stab is Hurricane. Moltres still gets most of the kills fire blast does with flamethrower(the only really relevant kill it misses is defensive cryo, but that dies after sr anyway).

These two posts practically explain everything. Moltres is solid S-Rank material. Being the most lethal special attacker in all of RU, Moltres is capable of punching big holes in teams. And besides, all of its flaws are overthrown by its strengths, like sheer power and Roost. Plus, spin support in RU is not much support, since Tops and Cryo are so damn awesome already. And Kabutops and Moltres are a great duo to boot. col49 and Trop pretty much sum up my argument right here.

[New Breed]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

Name one other Pokemon in S Rank that has a weakness so major that it requires direct intervention from another Pokemon just to be able to be switched in (inb4 "losing half your health on switching in is no big deal").

How many Pokemon in RU do you think can single handedly defeat the whole tier with no support?

RU is probably the easiest tier to remove SR from the field of play with Kabutops defeating every single ghost and having good synergy with Moltres (gdi electric is the easiest immunity to cover atm SEE NIDOQUEEN) and Cryogonal who can beat out every ghost bar Spiritomb.

Lets also take into account that the amount of Pokemon that can safely switch into all of Moltres' moves are Lanturn and Regirock, Slowking has to run Max/Max and have SR off its side of the field to be able to reliably beat it.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

I love free turns, lets me switch into a Pokemon that's good against it or just outspeed it and hit hard if the one I have in can do that.

Sure when Moltres uses Roost you get one free turn, but unless you have Lanturn or Regirock you will potentially be losing a Pokemon every time Moltres comes in, congrats.

[col49]

Alrighty then, I didn't feel as though this didn't need to carry on, but I suppose I don't have much of a choice now '~' Your points imply that the Moltres is no less than 100% inept. If you are assuming that Moltres is switching into Pokemon capable of simply clicking an Electric-, Water-, or Rock-type attack with little consequence, then it begs the question why is the Moltres user switching it in the first place? As with any generic offensive Pokemon, you aren't just haphazardly throwing it out into the fray, you're switching it in on opportunities it can capitalize on, such as the ones I mentioned in my prior post, a well-timed double switch, etc. Similarly, one must ask you make a list of Pokemon Moltres has no business staying in on, let alone switching directly into, to prove that it isn't S-Tier. For the sake of the argument, lets say I disagreed with Escavalier being in S-Tier. Would my listing of every Fire-type Pokemon from RU and NU prove that Escavalier isn't deserving of S-Tier? Perhaps if you could make up a list of Pokemon that can switch into Moltres and then proceed to either take a second hit or outpace it and KO then perhaps it would provide some sort of palpable evidence of Moltres' alleged mediocrity, but your given case really doesn't offer much material to discuss :/

[DrRobotnik]

@New Breed Or unless I have anything on that list I posted. If Moltres comes in on any of those, it's dead. If Moltres is already in with any of those, it's dead. Please stop assuming that I'm talking about Pokemon switching in on it when everything I've said is clearly in reference to Moltres being the one switching in.

@col49 I have plainly stated that I think Moltres is great, there is no possible way that you could get "Moltres sucks" from that. Also, things can have moves that aren't their type. And would you like to make that list? Because I'm not going to prove your point for you, especially when you have no idea what mine is. So, let me state this very clearly: I think that Moltres is very good in this tier, however it has certain issues that I do not think qualifies it as one of the best. It is not his upsides I'm talking about, it is his numerous downsides I am saying should disqualify him from that rank. Pointing out his good points do not change those at all.

And my question goes unanswered; how many Pokemon in S Rank need a very specific type Pokemon on their team to function well? One, and its name is Moltres.

[New Breed]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

Or unless I have anything on that list I posted. If Moltres comes in on any of those, it's dead. Please stop assuming that I'm talking about Pokemon switching in on it when everything I've said is clearly in referrence to Moltres being the one switching in.

Please stop assuming that I am stupid enough to switch Moltres in on something like Slowking or Aerodactyl lmao, at least use some sort of logic with your arguement

[DrRobotnik]

Then tell me when he's switching in. He has to eventually. Just because you automatically think you're right doesn't mean I'm not thinking.

[New Breed]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

Then tell me when he's switching in. He has to eventually. Just because you automatically think you're right doesn't mean I'm not thinking.

Moltres has resistances to Ice, Grass, Fighting and Fire and is immune to Ground type attacks, do you really think that throughout a match you will not get one opportunity to switch in?

[Shuckleking87]

Well, Moltres is neutral to ice. However, its bulk in taking ice moves really shouldn't be a problem with or without stealth rocks. Also, there is an assumption that stealth rocks will be on the field, which isn't necessarily the case, as offensive momentum, such as Mold Breaker Sawk, cinccino, taunt aerodactyl, fast sleep inducer and general offensive threats can either completely prevent hazards on the field or essentially suicide that poke for rocks. And sure, even if Kabutops HAS to be on your team (which has excellent synergy with moltres), Kabutops is a threatening poke in and of itself. Plus having the highest special attack stat in the tier (minus glaceon if you want to go there, which is weak to rocks) and speed to make Moltres a S worthy poke.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

Name one other Pokemon in S Rank that has a weakness so major that it requires direct intervention from another Pokemon just to be able to be switched in (inb4 "losing half your health on switching in is no big deal").

Moltres really doesn't care if it's 4x weak to SR. It's still a big time powerhouse, and its spinning partner, Kabutops, has amazing synergy with it. Moltres and Kabutops have excellent synergy, and spinning is insanely easy to pull off, since the two good spinners of RU, Tops and Cryo, are both able to beat most spinblockers 1 on 1, so it's not like it matters. Heck, even Sandslash can do the job well for Moltres.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

@TropiOUs your entire statement is "no it isn't because [completely different Pokemon in a completely different metagame]".

His comparison to Terrakion in OU was a valid one. They are both S threats that wreck shit in their own tiers, and they do have weaknesses. By this logic, Terrakion is clearly not S in OU, because he's weak to priority and is outsped by Starmie and Espeon. Even if RU is not OU, this comparison is valid because it shows two powerhouses in the tiers who are definite S.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

@col49 You missed the point of, like, every word I typed. I'm just going to very quickly list the important stuff you got wrong to save time:

• The part about being hard to switch in is not only referring to the stealth rocks. It's not hard at all to predict when it's going to be called in, so you can just use a water/electric/rock move then. Especially if you just spun, as you could easily just do an electric/rock move and kill either Kabutops/Cryogonal or Moltres.
  
• The point of the list is referring to Pokemon that are already in. These Pokemon easily outspeed, or in Slowking's case, tank a hit from it and OHKO it with no problem. Even if it does get one kill, that's it, especially because it can't afford to keep switching in and out because stealth rock and repreatedly taking hits normally.
  
• I'm talking exclusively from my experience, I have never been killed by a Moltres and I've encountered many.

This is flawed logic right here. Kabutops and Cryogonal are both dangerous spinners and no one in their right mind would ever switch in on a Water, Rock, or Electric move. Besides, as stated, spinning is never that hard. If you know a Water / Rock / Electric move is coming, why even switch Moltres in? That's some bad logic. And most things that outspeed Molt, bar Aero, cannot switch in on Moltres.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

What is the Electric type?

Lulzies. None of them can come in on Molt, while Tops, should it get SD up, is going to annihilate all of them with Aqua Jet. Not to mention Nidoqueen, a fit to any team, as well as Druddigon, can come in easily. You're not going to win that one. Trust me.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

While dying easily to almost everything that outspeeds it at that point.

Um, none of them can really switch in. To be honest, Moltres's sheer power ensures that none of them will come in safely. And besides, Nidoqueen is slow too, so this is a fallacy. And Escavalier is literally 2HKO'd by Stoutland Fire Fang. And it's still S-Rank. This is a big fail.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

I love free turns, lets me switch into a Pokemon that's good against it or just outspeed it and hit hard if the one I have in can do that.

Okay, Roost does provide a free turn, alright. But Moltres is very strong and can OHKO the opposition.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

@New Breed Or unless I have anything on that list I posted. If Moltres comes in on any of those, it's dead. If Moltres is already in with any of those, it's dead. Please stop assuming that I'm talking about Pokemon switching in on it when everything I've said is clearly in reference to Moltres being the one switching in.

Your logic is very flawed and this is nonsensical. No Moltres user in the right mind would ever switch in if they are suspecting a Water, Electric, or Rock move coming their way. Your ladder rating proves that your arguments are coming from battling the dregs of the ladder.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

@col49 I have plainly stated that I think Moltres is great, there is no possible way that you could get "Moltres sucks" from that. Also, things can have moves that aren't their type. And would you like to make that list? Because I'm not going to prove your point for you, especially when you have no idea what mine is. So, let me state this very clearly: I think that Moltres is very good in this tier, however it has certain issues that I do not think qualifies it as one of the best. It is not his upsides I'm talking about, it is his numerous downsides I am saying should disqualify him from that rank. Pointing out his good points do not change those at all.

And my question goes unanswered; how many Pokemon in S Rank need a very specific type Pokemon on their team to function well? One, and its name is Moltres.

Those downsides are thoroughly mitigated by his strong points, particularly his sheer power, access to Roost, a usable Speed tier, etc. Those overthrow the downsides almost entirely.

Originally Posted by Fat DrRobotnik

Then tell me when he's switching in. He has to eventually. Just because you automatically think you're right doesn't mean I'm not thinking.

He can come in on Specs Sceptile, as well as Escavalier. It can come in on Cryogonal too, and is a nice weapon against hail. It also comes in on Klinklang and other things like Roselia, etc. He has his fair share of switch-in opportunities.

EDIT: Off topic here, but Scolipede in C..:O