|Jan 31st, 2013, 1:39:30 AM||#1|
Woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo-woo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
Join Date: Jul 2010
FUK FERRO - A Discussion
Anyone suggesting Ferrothorn should actually be banned from Ubers will be shot on sight
Anyone who has been playing Ubers for a good while knows that one of the biggest changes between generations in Ubers was Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn was unlike anything that had been in Ubers before—a bulky Pokemon that could resist both Water Spouts and Draco Meteors and throw down invaluable entry hazards at the same time. Its effect on the metagame has been profound, if not obvious to initiates. It is also a complete asshole.
Iconic recently hosted a tournament with the premise that Ferrothorn was banned from Ubers / doesn't exist / human decency prohibits its use, something like that idk. A fun little twist, and a bit reminiscent of DPP Ubers. What we're going to do here is a little bit of analysis and a case study of the impact one prominent Pokemon can have on the metagame. What gets better with its absence? What gets worse? How do team styles change? What roles did Ferrothorn fill that now need to be filled?
Some Pokemon that benefit from Ferrothorn's absence:
(And rain offense in general)
Ferrothorn was a serious thorn in Palkia's side (pun foreseen but tragically unavoidable), and with it gone Palkia now gets much better mileage out of its dangerous STAB moves. In particular the Specs set greatly benefits from Ferrothorn not being around anymore to sponge both of its absurdly dangerous STAB moves (Kingdra is in a similar boat). With Ferrothorn in the metagame, Palkia's Lustrous Orb set is generally preferred for offense, since it functions better in any weather, and can't rely on the raw power of Specs rain-boosted STAB Hydro Pump when Ferrothorn can tank it relatively well. Rain offense as a whole likes not having to deal with Ferrothorn, and it opens up the range of sets that Kyogre can run as well, since it no longer has to worry about being easily walled by Ferrothorn if it doesn't use Choice Specs. (Not that other sets weren't viable before of course.)
With Ferrothorn no longer around to tank Kyogre's hits, Latias will likely see even more usage in this tournament due to being one of the most solid answers to Kyogre in the game. Latias also didn't like tangoing with Ferrothorn if it could avoid it. Other Water-resists, such as Palkia, Grass Arceus, and Dialga will likely become popular to fill the gap.
Ferrothorn in rain was also one of the more solid answers to Latios, since it could shrug off anything that the rain abusing set could throw and didn't fear Hidden Power Fire from other variants nearly as much. Latios is now much more dangerous and difficult to handle now. Could Tyranitar possibly rise up during this tournament to keep it in line, and might Latios start running Grass Knot over Thunder frequently because of this?
Skarmory might try to fill the other gap Ferrothorn left, which is a specially bulky Steel-type that can throw down Spikes. While it can't tank hits on as broad of a spectrum as Ferrothorn, it can set down Spikes easily, and unlike Ferrothorn, actually has reliable recovery. It can also hose slower walls with Taunt, and is a great answer to Extreme Killer Arceus.
And now a Pokemon that will miss Ferrothorn:
Ho-Oh only really feared Thunder Wave from Ferrothorn, due to its typing and Regenerator. As such it could often get free Substitutes off of Ferrothorn, or throw out powerful Sacred Fires and Brave Birds. Ho-Oh will also not like the drastic increase of rain offense, nor any increase in use of Tyranitar in response to Lati@s. Ho-Oh's really really bulky, but not THAT bulky. Ho-Oh does like the possible increase of Grass Arceus though, so it's not all bad for it.
Anyone who is participating or had been participating in the tournament is encouraged to post their thoughts and experiences. When did you miss Ferrothorn during team building? What threats did its absence make you want to use? What did you notice about team builds that couldn't use it?
|Jan 31st, 2013, 5:24:30 AM||#2|
Join Date: Oct 2012
Ferro should be banned from ubers :()
But seriously, rain offense will just explode due to Palkia and Kingdra having one less counter, and Specs/Scarf Kyogre will probably be seen more. People will probably also use Forry a lot more, seeing as a good hazard setter is gone.
Shoot me nao
Edit: Did some All vs 1 calcs for specs Palkia:
I go by the name of "Not Lavos Spawn" on PS
&Hugendugen: who is this Hugen Dugen?
&Mikel: a skank who think she's pretty
&Mikel: and is rather large
Last edited by MapleDoom; Jan 31st, 2013 at 5:40:15 AM.
|Jan 31st, 2013, 5:36:07 AM||#3|
<%Frizy> YOU CANNOT LEAVE THE PENIS ONCE YOU'VE HAD A TASTE
Join Date: Sep 2012
Although my opponent predominately used sun our 3 battles which was unexpected when team building before our matches I immediately thought to abuse the lack of Ferrothorn.
When team building 3 pokemon that immediately came to mind in terms of offensive pressure were Zekrom, Latias and Kingdra.
Zekrom hates Ferrothorn with a Since its one of the few Pokemon that resist its dual STAB and being physically orientated Zekrom will take damage when attempting to break through, therefore it must run either the shaky Focus Blast or rely on team members to severely weaken or destroy Ferrothorn before it can be used to its full potential. Since even its Choice Band set is a 3 hit KO with Bolt Strike!
The Zekrom I used in one of my matches was a Tailwind variant with excellent wall breaking capabilities and it seemed the perfect candidate to unleash with Ferrothorn gone as it was then able to run Bolt Strike, Outrage and Draco Meteor with little fear of being walled. It was a tough choice between using this Zekrom and the Choice Banded variant, but the idea of making Zekrom difficult to revenge and able to outspeed even common scarfers was more appealing at the time.
As mentioned in the OP I was excited to utilise Latias as somewhat replacement for Ferrothorn in countering Kyogre and also the ability to set up Calm Minds and sweep with the same coverage as Zekrom in Thunder and Dragon pulse. Latias certainly did its job well since replacements for Ferrothorn that I was expecting like Skarmory certaintly couldn't stand up to it.
Then in my final team I attempted to run swift swim Kingdra as a potent revenge killer and sweeper. Like Zekrom and Palkia, Kingdra as greatly appreciates the removal of Ferrothorn, and since its also far weaker then the two aforementioned it doesn't stand a chance getting past it, So as a result its Mixed Attacking set whhc compromises of purely STAB becomes that much deadlier.
Although Kingdra didn't get to go the sweep I hoped it would (Curse you thunder wave Kyogre) its certaintly a force to be reckoned with.
Concerning defensive replacements for Ferrothorn, there isn't really a single one due to its unique attributes but Grass Arceus and Skarmory were certainly around to attempt to pick up the slack.
Again, as mentioned in the OP Ho-Oh does miss having Ferrothorn around to set up on but I did witness first hand a Ho-oh under the sun and cause me major problems since I relied on Grass Arceus and Latias to take on what I thought would be rain teams, leaving me entirely unprepared to combat sun teams without the rain in play, something which I'll be sure to rectify in round 2.
In terms of missing Ferrothorn, I can't really give any clear instances since like I said my opponent primarily used Sun which isn't a favourable match up for it in the first place, but i remember missing having a Pokemon able to switch in and be able to take strong dragon moves. Since at that time I was using a team which simply had Ferrothorn subbed out in favour of support Dialga which could not stand up take Modest Reshiram's Draco Meteors for long, and since the Reshiram was also scarfed I'n sure my opponent realised that he could simply spam Draco Meteor when it was in safely without drawbacks. Although that was poor teambuilding on my part, since I should have changed it to Support Arceus-Steel or Chansey rather than Dialga.
<%Frizy> YOU CANNOT LEAVE THE PENIS ONCE YOU'VE HAD A TASTE
|Jan 31st, 2013, 5:37:02 AM||#4|
Join Date: Jun 2012
People still use that thorny piece of shit as a rain check? Dry Skin Jynx is where its at (sarcasm) Rain Offense is a powerful enough threat and Ferrothorn is an incredible stop (go go jynx)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magikarp Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh in rain: 228-270 (54.93 - 65.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
you may know me as "superwii64cube" too
|Jan 31st, 2013, 11:18:08 AM||#5|
Join Date: Jan 2011
I couldn't bring myself to play in this tournament as I felt like I would sorely miss such an important member of the Ubers metagame. (even though I don't use him that much)
Latios is definitely someone who gained a lot by Ferro leaving. Stall will have fewer options to prevent this monster from blasting the careful team building. (screw you Levitate) I'd expect more Tyranitar usage from Stall teams for sure. (or well, him and all the other things that beat Latios like CMSteelceus and Jirachi)
Forretress is somebody who lost a good deal from the absence of Ferrothorn. Ferro's popularity made it a lot easier for Forry to come in and do his job. Now the God of Hazards has to rely on those Scarf Ice Beams/Spacial Rends/second DMs to get those Spikes up or spin them away. (At least for the balanced teams, he'll always take center stage when going up against Stall.)
[01:47:47] <+Limi> gamefreak has confirmed the rumour
[01:47:53] <+Limi> that mewtwo now has a tumor
[01:47:59] <+Limi> but please man, chill out
[01:48:03] <+Limi> you don't need to pout
[01:48:08] <+Limi> just take it all in good humour!
Last edited by Melee Mewtwo; Feb 1st, 2013 at 10:27:04 AM.
|Jan 31st, 2013, 6:44:13 PM||#6|
Join Date: Mar 2012
Scarborough, ON, CA
Ferrothorn should be banned from ubers( Not OU)I do not actually mean this at all
...IF you're going to shoot me, at least shoot me with a Norfleet. Those things are overkill, and overkill is awesome.
Actually, while I did not participate in the tourney, I do use Ferro a lot, and he serves a unique niche by being able to set up hazards in the face of non-specs kyogre via leech seed. Also, it's a bad Idea to spin with ferro out, due to Iron Barbs. If it was Goner'd, My likely options would be fortress, Dialga, or Gastrodon. However, they lack leech seed, and Iron barbs. Foretress would replace as a hazard setter, but it has inferior defensive and offensive stats. Also, I already have a spinner. Dialga would be the support t-wave set. However, no leech seed, and no spikes would be annoying, as well as the ground weakness, something my team has quite a bit of. Gastrodon would be the best kyogre check, but can't do much to anybody else.
We wood like to visit for a midnight znack.
How does ice cream and brains zound? Sincerely,
|Feb 11th, 2013, 7:14:37 PM||#7|
Quiet Thunder God
Join Date: Aug 2009
There are so many scary threats in the FUK Ferrothorn Ubers meta, it's not even funny. Zekrom just dominates, since there isn't a "catch-all" check to it anymore, Palkia is way harder to deal with in the rain and I don't even have talk about Kyogre. I've been told that more and more people are resorting to use Grass Arceus to check the influx of Kyogres, and Latias usage is at an all time high. Dragons in general hit the jackpot, since other than Jirachi, Steels can't really take repeated Draco Meteors. In fact, one of my FUK Ferro teams used 4 Draco Meteoring Dragons XD.