Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Mark II (RoA edition)

[Crystal_]

OHKO moves are not completely broken, but they are stupid. They can make games very stupid.

[Dre89]

OHKO aren't broken in the sense that they're OP and you'll win every battle, it's that they degenerate the game into almost complete luck, making them anti-competitive.

[Least100Seraphs]

How is a speed tie resolved in the Genius Sonority-coded Gamecube games, Colosseum and XD?
Is it the usual - coin-flip then alternating?

[magic9mushroom]

(copypasted from a derailed thread)

Originally Posted by Fat Me

The hell?

Dragonite has what, a 4-5HKO with Blizzard vs. a guaranteed 4HKO with Night Shade?

Thunder Wave is still a more-than-1for1 trade in moves.

Lapras can't switch into Dragonite? Lapras switches into Dragonite just fine. So does Cloyster.

Point me to where I said "sleep checks Dragonite"...?

(I mean, obviously it does, but Sleep Clause makes it irrelevant as you pointed out.)

Or, y'know, use Rhydon and PP-stall it, or have Gengar and hit it with something to put it in 3HKO range as it sets up, or fake it into Hyper Beaming Cloyster, or hit it with paralysis as it sets up and then Rest or Recover-loop it?

(I've successfully walled Dragonite with Withdraw Slowbro before. That was kinda hilarious.)

Dragonite doesn't switch into much besides Snorlax or Goldon, and even those aren't completely safe.

Have you actually ever used Dragonite against a good player? I have, and it's almost as hard to use as Slowbro. The main difference is that crappy players still generally have a clue about how to beat Slowbro, while they just sit there and die to Dragonite. As you clearly do.

Cloyster's good, being basically an RBY U-turner, but it's not very threatening on its own.

Your mention of AgiliSpin Moltres as a credible sweeper threat has just made you lose all credibility, btw. :P

Go nuts.

EDIT: Could someone please explain why they merged a non-Simple question with non-Simple answers into this thread?

[Golden Gyarados]

Originally Posted by Fat magic9mushroom

(copypasted from a derailed thread)



Go nuts.

EDIT: Could someone please explain why they merged a non-Simple question with non-Simple answers into this thread?

Honestly, probably because the "simple answer" is, "Yes, wrap is glitched in RBY, and its not regarded as a skilled strategy." As Nyara mentioned in a previous thread, evasion, OHKO, and multiple Pokemon asleep or frozen are all banned with clauses for the exact same reasons many tournaments choose to ban wrap moves. The REASON there is no explicit clause for it is because in the early days of RBY, simulators couldn't accurately replicate wrap mechanics, so there was no point in creating a Wrap Clause anyway.

You asked earlier in this thread why OHKO moves are banned, and the simple answer was "Because they are stupid, and they make battles stupid." The same simple answer applies to Wrap.

[magic9mushroom]

How is Wrap "glitched"? "Prevent opponent from attacking" is what it's supposed to do.

[Golden Gyarados]

Originally Posted by Fat magic9mushroom

How is Wrap "glitched"? "Prevent opponent from attacking" is what it's supposed to do.

There are a couple of glitches associated with Wrap in RBY, both fixed in Stadium (confirming that they were indeed mistakes rather than intentional, similar to the "Hyper Beam doesn't force a recharge if you KO the target" and Focus Energy glitches, which were problematic in cart but fixed in Stadium). You can review Wrap's problematic mechanics here . The glitches also apply to the other wrap moves like Clamp. Obviously, triggering the glitch that effectively prevents Wrap from running out of PP is a pretty big problem.

Even taken purely at its intentional function, to prevent the opponent from attacking, that logic does not necessarily make Wrap moves appealing. After all, Evasion and OHKO moves "do what they're supposed to do," and they're banned - exactly as described previously in this thread - due to making battles anti-competitive, which is exactly the trap Wrap falls into.

And, finally, the fact that Wrap moves underwent such a drastic re-design in Gen II onward indicates the programmers themselves were unhappy with the mechanics - implying that perhaps Wrap moves never really DID "do what they're supposed to do" after all.

[jukappa]

So we are planning to play some RBY from scratch and battle at time intervals of every couple of hours. So this changes strategy a bit. And I was just looking to gather any advice from you guys on pokemon to target (easily and early) and for team strategy. Normal bans apply as well.

Basically my three main questions are, do you think it would be wiser to gather a few pokemon and raise them strong, or have an even team of 6?

Also what are some pokemon I could target that are good battle pokemon and can be obtained pretty early on?

and which of the three starter pokemon would you use?

Thanks guys

[magic9mushroom]

Originally Posted by Fat Golden Gyarados

There are a couple of glitches associated with Wrap in RBY, both fixed in Stadium (confirming that they were indeed mistakes rather than intentional, similar to the "Hyper Beam doesn't force a recharge if you KO the target" and Focus Energy glitches, which were problematic in cart but fixed in Stadium). You can review Wrap's problematic mechanics here . The glitches also apply to the other wrap moves like Clamp. Obviously, triggering the glitch that effectively prevents Wrap from running out of PP is a pretty big problem.

Even taken purely at its intentional function, to prevent the opponent from attacking, that logic does not necessarily make Wrap moves appealing. After all, Evasion and OHKO moves "do what they're supposed to do," and they're banned - exactly as described previously in this thread - due to making battles anti-competitive, which is exactly the trap Wrap falls into.

And, finally, the fact that Wrap moves underwent such a drastic re-design in Gen II onward indicates the programmers themselves were unhappy with the mechanics - implying that perhaps Wrap moves never really DID "do what they're supposed to do" after all.

Wrap doesn't make battles anti-competitive, since there are simple counterstrategies. It makes battles differently-competitive.

[Dre89]

I've said this a million times before, wrap is about as centralising as sleep and explosion.

Having to use different pokemon and strategies isn't an argument to ban it, because a wrap community who banned sleep and explosion could say the same thing about those two.

I don't see how wrap was glitched in RBY. The text refers to being unable to move, which suggests it was intended.

[Dre89]

Is there a list somewhere which outlines the differences in the battle mechanics of GSC and Pokemon Stadium 2? I couldn't find anything on the net. Thanks in advance.

[Onicon]

We though we have already told you that the difference is that you can see the opponents HP. Compared to RBY and Stadium 1 there aren't many differences.

Originally Posted by Fat Onicon

In Stadium 2 you can see the HP of your opponent. You have the ability to bluff a substitue set for example by having 404 HP.

[Jorgen]

The main mechanical difference between GS and C is the lack of the Present glitch (where the damage formula is super-wonky and allows Blissey to handily 2HKO Umbreon with it) in the latter.

Between C and Stadium is the lack of the Belly Drum glitch (where you get +2 to Attack at less than half health) in the latter. Also clauses are actually enforceable in Stadium 2. Also Berserk Gene confusion stops being permanent and just becomes normal 1-4 turn confusion in Stadium. And sleep duration is probably different too (it is in Stadium 1), but I can't find anything on it.

That's all I can figure off the top of my head, sorry I don't have a convenient source of all the differences.

[Dre89]

Ahk thanks. So essentially, we play with cartridge mechanics but with the Stadium clauses?

[Jorgen]

Yep, same thing we do with RBY.

[Dre89]

Damn.

Why don't people just play PS2 mechanics? It doesn't seem that different, and the clauses actually exist there so you don't have the fact that it's an illegitimate meta. I guess if no one cares it isn't a big deal.

[ElectivireRocks]

Given how many complaints ths GSC metagame gets because it's so stall-oriented, have you ever considered banning Snorlax and/or enforcing an item clause? I know most items not named Leftovers suck in GSC, but it can't be denied that they're just as guilty as Snorlax.

[Crystal_]

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

Given how many complaints ths GSC metagame gets because it's so stall-oriented, have you ever considered banning Snorlax and/or enforcing an item clause? I know most items not named Leftovers suck in GSC, but it can't be denied that they're just as guilty as Snorlax.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3473047

[Frochtejohgurt]

I've seen the term "hp legend" a few times in this forum. What exactly is that?

[Jorgen]

Pokemon classified as legendary that have the move Hidden Power. Most commonly, it specifically refers to Zapdos and Raikou using Hidden Power Ice/Water in GSC.

[magic9mushroom]

For a while, they were banned in GSC because a) Hidden Power gives legendaries crucial coverage that they couldn't get otherwise, b) as Hidden Power depends on DVs and legendaries can only be obtained once per playthrough, successfully obtaining a given Hidden Power legendary in-game is rather tiresome and in a sense "overly idealised".

[AraShaun]

Are there any articles/guides on 3rd Gen Doubles?

Thank you

[EnvoyOfTheEnd]

Has anyone here used scizor to any notable success in generation 3 outside of a baton pass chain? And if so, how difficult was it to do? I would like to use him in generation 3, but you cant just slap a pokemon on a team, so I would like to know good teammates for him (other than the obvious flash fire users to bait the fire type attacks)

[Crystal_]

Has anyone here used scizor to any notable success in generation 3 outside of a baton pass chain? And if so, how difficult was it to do? I would like to use him in generation 3, but you cant just slap a pokemon on a team, so I would like to know good teammates for him (other than the obvious flash fire users to bait the fire type attacks)

Magneton is basically a must if you don't want to be walled to no end by Skarmory. Scizor also has issues with bulky waters so pokemon that can put pressure on them such as Salamence, Metagross and Tyranitar are good teammates. Ttar's ability to summon sand is also good news. Snorlax and Gyarados are good teammates too since they like to have Skarmory removed by magneton, and, if maggy fails to trap it, snorlax can baitexplode on it, and gyarados might be able to rack up some damage with a taunt/Hpump set I guess, though Gyarados would like to have d-e to deal with Zapdos.

Scizor simply lacks good stab attacks. Unless you take advantage of not taking s-e damage from water-types, even something like Armaldo is plain better. Also, watch out for random fire attacks, like from Snorlax, Gengar, Jirachi...

That's all I can think of at the moment.

[meteor64]

The thing about Scizor is that Metagross is massively better when you don't consider Baton Pass. Stronger STAB, better movepool, more bulk, can go mixed, doesn't roll over and die to Fire moves, and can explode. Scizor can hit Celebi really hard, and has Swords Dance I guess, but really Metagross outclasses it.