(Quality Control) Abomasnow (QC 2/3)

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Well well. Time to do for Papa Tree.



Obamasnow

[Overview]

<p>Abomasnow is unique in the fact that it is the only automatic weather setter in UU. With its ability Snow Warning, Abomasnow can summon hail for such teams to flourish. That's not all Abomasnow has going for it either; it has solid base 92 offensive stats and great offensive options to utilize them with. Abomasnow also has decent defenses to boot, and when combined with key resistances to Water, Electric, and Ground, Abomasnow can serve as a decent defensive Pokemon that can check threats such as Raikou and Kingdra. However, the fun ends there. Abomasnow has seven crippling weaknesses, especially to Stealth Rock, which make it difficult to last long. A low Speed stat isn't doing it any favors either; many things can outspeed and beat Abomasnow before it can react. Its offensive stats, while solid, are not exactly stellar, so it mat not hit hard enough at times. Despite these flaws, Abomasnow makes for a great asset to any hail centralized team in the UU tier.</p>

[SET]
name: SubSeed
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Blizzard
move 4: Wood Hammer / Giga Drain
item: Leftovers
ability: Snow Warning
nature: Sassy / Calm
evs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Abomasnow's best set is a SubSeed set. With decent bulk and good resistances, Abomasnow can set up Leech Seed on threats such as Raikou, Krookodile, and Slowbro. Abomasnow can wear down the opponent with its automatic hail and Leech Seed combined, which makes it a solid staller that also summons hail for the team to function. Substitute is the first move of the set, as it allows Abomasnow to avoid status while setting up Leech Seed for free and attaining its recovery. Leech Seed is important to this set's success as well, as Abomasnow aims to wear down the opponent with its hail and Leech Seed while also providing itself a decent form of recovery. Blizzard is Abomasnow's best STAB move, as it cannot miss under hail while dishing a solid amount of damage. Wood Hammer is chosen as Grass STAB to maim many things that don't mind Blizzard, as well as Snorlax and SubCM Raikou. However, Giga Drain is useful as a recovery move that also sports a decent base power.</p>

• Abomasnow makes for a solid SubSeeder with good bulk and alright typing
• Substitute is to allow Abomasnow to use Leech Seed on an incoming Fire
• Leech Seed to wear down the opponent and heal Abomasnow
• Blizzard for Ice STAB. Work well with Abomasnow summoning hail
• Wood Hammer to hurt Waters, and hits Lax harder. Also helps to actually beat SubCM Raikou
• Giga Drain could work well too for recovery

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread is specially defensive to allow Abomasnow to check Electric and Water-types such as Raikou and Suicune and overall take more advantage of Abomasnow's typing. Depending on what move Abomasnow runs for Grass STAB, either a Calm or Sassy Nature is needed to maximize Special Defense. Leftovers is there as an extra source of recovery as Abomasnow lacks any outside of Leech Seed. Protect is a useful option over Wood Hammer or Giga Drain to add up the hail and Leech Seed damage while damaging Mienshao.</p>

<p>Mienshao is a good teammate to handle opposing Steel-types while not minding hail. Since Abomasnow hates entry hazards of all kinds, Blastoise and Claydol are both useful to remove entry hazards while sporting useful defensive synergy with it. Slowbro, Escavalier, and Nidoqueen all have excellent defensive synergy with Abomasnow and can work well in the hail, while the latter can abuse hail itself with Blizzard. Since Abomasnow summons hail, an Ice-type is ideal to take advantage of it; Rotom-F and Walrein are common hail abusers that should be used in conjunction with Abomasnow.</p>

• EV spread gives some pretty good special bulk, allows it to take on Shaymin, Raikou, Cofagrigus, and Bulky Waters more easily
• Calm or Sassy to be sure you have enough Special Defense to utilize the mixed bulk
• Protect can be useful to block a hit and basically free turn of Lefties/Seed, plus Hail damage
• Leftovers for obvious reasons
• Mienshao is good to smash a lot of Pokemon and not care about hail
• Blastoise is useful to spin and take on Darma
• Claydol (lol) also works to spin
• There are useful things like Slowbro, Escavalier, and Nidoqueen who work well (some can check things that wreck Aboma a new one)
• Hail abusers such as Rotom-F and Walrein
• Also, Weather Ball Raikou works to abuse Ice Weather Ball, but will be worn down

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Blizzard
move 2: Wood Hammer / Giga Drain
move 3: Earthquake / Focus Punch
move 4: Ice Shard
item: Expert Belt
ability: Snow Warning
nature: Lonely
evs: 252 Atk / 108 SpA / 148 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Abomasnow has good mixed attacking stats and a solid offensive movepool, which allow it to serve as a great mixed attacker. It has excellent coverage in its two STAB's alone, while it can break common defensive Pokemon such as Slowbro and Gligar. Blizzard serves as preliminary Ice STAB, packing a great amount of power while attaining perfect accuracy in the hail Abomasnow summons.

• Abomasnow makes for a great mixed attacker thanks to his good offensive stats and typing
• This one can do some heavy damage to Snorlax and Swampert and give Gligar the chills
• Blizzard for Ice STAB, hail allows it to never, ever miss. (Gligar is running in fear right now)
• Giga Drain is second STAB, hurts Slowbro, Suicune, Blastoise, etc. Also recovery
• Focus Punch is there to catch incoming Snorlax as well as Umbreon and Bisharp
• EQ is for a stronger weapon against the steel and hurts Chandy / Darma, but leaves Abomasnow prone to Bronzong
• Ice Shard for priority, can catch Scarf Flygon if it's there

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• 252 is invested into Attack to hit rather hard with Wood Hammer and Focus Punch, which is needed to catch Snorlax and his gang
• 108 EVs give a decent Special Attack to use Blizzard with
• 140 Atk EV's minimum to KO Flygon with Ice Shard
• 148 Spe to outspeed a couple slow things like Blastoise and Claydol
• Expert Belt to make the most out of Abomasnow's great coverage
• Lonely to make the Attack stat high. Besides, Abomasnow is weak to most physical attacks anyways
• Kinda hard to counter directly with the awesome coverage
• This thing hates SR
• Blastoise makes for a good teammate. Can spin SR reliably and take on those Fire-types. Great synergy with the tree (Claydol also works)
• Use things that take advantage of hail like Rotom-F and Walrein
• Slowbro, Escavalier, and Nidoqueen are all good on hail
• Weather Ball Raikou, but worn down

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Wood Hammer
move 2: Ice Shard
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Ice Punch
item: Choice Band
ability: Snow Warning
nature: Adamant
evs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

• This set hits pretty damn hard
• Abomasnow has the moves and Attack to do this effectively
• Can catch common switch-ins such as Fire-types and Snorlax
• His typing ensures not even the two premier physical walls, Slowbro and Gligar, are safe against this thing
• Wood Hammer is for Grass STAB. Slowbro takes some real pain
• Ice Shard for Ice STAB and priority. Gligar hates it, and it can pick off frail things like Mienshao
• Earthquake to catch suspecting Chandelures and Darmanitans on the switch in
• Ice Punch to send Gligar running for cover

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• EV's invest maximum into Attack to use CB effectively
• 204 Spe EV's to get the jump on Gligar, and rest into HP
• Adamant to use CB effectively
• Pretty hard to counter directly
• Again, Blastoise is a useful (needed) ally to spin rocks away and take on Chandy and Darma
• Claydol also works, puts up Rocks to stack damage, spins, and can check a few things
• (smd Hitmontop)
• Mienshao is very useful to deal with the Steel, Regenerator makes sure it doesn't give two fucks about hail damage
• Rotom-F and Walrein abuse Aboma's hail well
• Slowbro, Escavalier, and Nidoqueen are useful to benefit from and/or support hail well
• Again, try and get something that can take advantage of Abomasnow's Snow Warning
• Weather Ball Raikou works but is worn down

[Other Options]

• A SubPunch set could be used
• Scarf could be used, but Aboma is too slow to run it, doesn't even outspeed +115's like Raikou and Ambipom(lol)
• Avalanche
• Double-Edge
• Ice Punch
• Light Screen
• Shadow Ball
• Rock Slide
• It has Swords Dance, but is pretty damn slow
• Toxic

[Checks and Counters]

• Any Fire-type
• Crobat, but beware Blizzard or Ice Shard
• Bisharp
• Mienshao, Heracross, etc.
• Escavalier
• Sableye can be annoying
• Stealth Rock
• Bronzong
• Nidoking / Nidoqueen
• Yanmega
• Snorlax
• Honchkrow can smash it with Brave Bird and start a Moxie sweep, but it must be wary of Ice Shard
• Registeel is an alright check (lol this Pokemon)
• Togekiss??
• Tornadus checks it

[Cherub Agent]

On the mixed attacker, you say that wood hammer is great for suicune, blastoise and slowbro, who basically all invest in physifql defense. With that in mind, why not simply use Grass Knot or Giga Drain and make Abomasnow specially based, with enough attack to ko flygon with ice shard? Wood hammer is doing diddlt squat to chansey anyway and will probably hurt you more than her. I get that wood hammer is strong, but tbh i dont see the benefits or it over a special grass move

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat Cherub Agent

On the mixed attacker, you say that wood hammer is great for suicune, blastoise and slowbro, who basically all invest in physifql defense. With that in mind, why not simply use Grass Knot or Giga Drain and make Abomasnow specially based, with enough attack to ko flygon with ice shard? Wood hammer is doing diddlt squat to chansey anyway and will probably hurt you more than her. I get that wood hammer is strong, but tbh i dont see the benefits or it over a special grass move

I might as well consider that. And there is no need to mention Chansey-it was quickbanned into BL last Sunday.

[Ernesto]

Agreeing with Cherub Agent, most Water-types invest heavily in physical defense so a special Grass-type move is better (frankly I'd use Giga Drain since it's a means of recovery and Grass Knot isn't that much powerful against its targets anyway, except for the incredibly heavy Suicune lol). Also, I used Earthquake to have it act as a secondary check to Raikou w/o Aura Sphere (mainly SubCM), it needs 283 Attack EVs to KO it after SR and one turn of Hail in case you're planning on giving it a more special bias.

You say 112 EVs helps outspeed Blastoise, which is wrong. 112 reaches 184, while minimum Speed Blastoise has 192 Speed. Getting min Speed Blastoise seems like a big deal to me.

In a similar topic, I don't like the EVs of the SubSeed set. It can't set up on much, which is why I'd strongly suggest you invest heavily in Speed, to at least get min Speed Blastoise again (148 EVs are needed) so as to prevent it from Toxicing you. Actually, that benchmark should be for all sets except for Scarf imo. What I'd do is max HP, put enough Speed for Blastoise and the rest in Special Attack, but that's up discussion.

I also find the lack of a Choice Scarf set disturbing, I haven't actually tried it but it could be useful even in UU where there aren't weather wars, so I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly. It also has a good surprise effect against stuff that think can KO you, such as LO Nidoking—it can also beat Tornadus iirc.

[Not Jacky]

Every set and the overview needs to place more emphasis on Abomasnow's ability to reliably switch into and check Water-types, which is (from my experience) one of its main strengths.

Mixed Attacker:

- The EVs are inefficient, as its SpA is higher than its Attack (which gets the nature boost). A Mild nature with 204 Atk and 156 SpA has one more point in Special Attack with the same Attack; it's minor, but there's no reason not to use that spread instead.
- Earthquake also probably deserves to be the first slash over Hidden Power Fire; Darmanitan/Chandelure/Victini (who resist everything else on the set) are both more prevalent and more immediately threatening than Bronzong/Escavalier/Bisharp; it's also stronger against Snorlax, who can otherwise switch into anything, and you really never want to give free switch-ins to a Choice Bander.
- You also haven't mentioned any KOs that Expert Belt secures.
- What exactly is Ice Shard supposed to hit? I think it could be slashed or replaced with Substitute or a coverage move (Earthquake/HP Fire).

SubSeed:

- Wood Hammer is the first slash for the fourth slot, but the first nature slash is Calm.
- It's also worth mentioning that Wood Hammer hits Snorlax on its weaker side, but vice versa for every Water-type except boosted Suicune.
- In any case, Giga Drain + 148 Spe should be the main set with Sassy + Wood Hammer in AC.
- Mention teammates that can use Toxic Spikes in AC.

Choice Band:

- Emphasize how it beats common switch-ins, most notably Fire-types (with Earthquake) and Snorlax (with Focus Punch), which can pave the way for a sweep.
- 184 Speed EVs; 84 only outspeeds minimum speed Bisharp (which is nonexistent), Hitmontop, Umbreon (which can be outsped with 44), Swampert, and Porygon2 (which can both be outsped with 4).

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Okay, I've done a sizable work on the skeleton, bumping this for checks

[cim]

• 204 is invested into Attack to hit rather hard, same with 156 SpA EV's
• 108 EVs give a decent Special Attack to use EQ and Ice Shard effectively

these are in conflict

some indication that you didn't just pull the EV spread out of your ass would be nice. none of this "to hit hard" stuff.

[RT.]

Ok it's late but I'm going to take a shot at this. Here's what I think the mixed attacker should look like:

[SET]
name: Mixed Attacker
move 1: Blizzard
move 2: Wood Hammer / Giga Drain
move 3: Earthquake / Focus Punch
move 4: Ice Shard
item: Expert Belt
ability: Snow Warning
nature: Lonely
evs: 140 Atk / 220 SpA / 148 Spe

Wood Hammer is better than Grass Knot/Giga Drain. It has much higher base power (which means it does a shitton more to neutral switch-ins), it's stronger against Blastoise, and it 2HKOes CB Snorlax with Hail damage. The damage output is only slightly less against Suicune and Slowbro, but they cant beat you anyway. Focus Punch is a pretty good option if you opt to use Giga Drain instead of Wood Hammer, since it lets you OHKO Snorlax on the switch, and deal upwards of 70% to Umbreon. The EVs let you OHKO Flygon with Ice Shard and outspeed min Blastoise, with the remainder in Special Attack.

The subseeder should be using a spread of 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe with a Sassy nature and Wood Hammer slashed before Calm nature and Giga Drain. It needs full investment in Special Defense so it can tank Raikou, Shaymin, Cofag, and [insert Bulky Water] more effectively. Wood Hammer should be the primary choice so you can actually beat CM Raikou.

As for the CB set, the fourth slot should just be filled with Ice Punch since Focus punch has redundant coverage with Earthquake and it doesn't prevent you from being walled by Bronzong at all. Its EVs should be 54 Hp / 252 Atk / 204 Spe to get the jump on minimum speed base 85's.

[Ernesto]

The problem with Wood Hammer is that the recoil is nasty if you aren't using Leftovers, either slash Lefties first or change the order of your secondary STAB and mention Leftovers as another item it can run, at least Giga Drain gives you a form of recovery... Also that EV spread is weird, if you're running three physical moves you should invest more in Attack—like, enough to KO Raikou after SR and Hail with Earthquake, or something like that—imo. The spread yields 280 Atk and 275 SpA, unless the Special Attack EVs guarantee Blizzard does something I'd rather go with max Atk.

Mention an alternate spread in the SubSeeder of 248 HP / 112 SpD / 148 Spe Calm when using Giga Drain, to be able to switch into Blastoise's Scald and Sub up before it Toxic's you. In case he has Dragon Tail over Roar, that works even better since it can't phaze you on the predicted Substitute.

EDIT: Feel free to disregard my comment on Wood Hammer, I had just woken up and the notion '2HKOes Offensive Snorlax after Hail' didn't really get to me. That's definitely big, considering how well it does to get rid of Lax for later Blizzspamming, so yea, Wood Hammer is worth it even if it means you'll die to recoil—I still wouldn't switch Lax into Aboma without knowing whether it was a SubSeeder or not, but that's just me. I'm still rather adamant on the fact that not maxing Attack when running three physical moves is rather silly, but you can defend the given spread if you want to.

[RT.]

With Ernesto's post in mind, use the set I posted with an EV Spread of 252 Atk / 108 SpA / 148 Spe. In AC, mention that 140 Atk EVs is the minimum you should run should you choose to focus on Special Attack with Giga Drain > Wood Hammer. (140 Atk EVs to OHKO Flygon with Ice Shard)

Originally Posted by Fat Ernesto

Mention an alternate spread in the SubSeeder of 248 HP / 112 SpD / 148 Spe Calm when using Giga Drain, to be able to switch into Blastoise's Scald and Sub up before it Toxic's you. In case he has Dragon Tail over Roar, that works even better since it can't phaze you on the predicted Substitute.

Dragon Tail has -6 priority so it goes last regardless of whether Aboma is slower than Blastoise or not. I'm fine with this spread being in AC, although its use is rather limited and Blastoise is more likely to use Roar, or just switch out.

Implement everything else I said in my previous post, and change the set order so it's 1) SubSeed 2) Mixed Attacker 3)Choice Band. Also, Protect deserves an AC mention for the SubSeed set, it's really useful for racking up Hail/Leech Seed damage and scouting choiced attackers. Put Choice Scarf in Other Options, Abomasnow is too slow to make proper use of a Scarf set, and it doesn't even outrun +115's after the boost.

[Ernesto]

What I meant to say with Dragon Tail was that, if the Blastoise user were to predict you to use Substitute—because he saw your Lefties recovery or whatever—with Roar it could make you effectively waste 25% of Aboma's health for nothing, while D-Tail couldn't break your Sub should WS Venomoth become more popular. Of course, the Blastoise user would be taking a huge unnecessary risk, but that's a different situation. Other than that, thank you for taking my thoughts into consideration!

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Aight. Made the changes RT suggested, so should be ready for checks now.

[RT.]

Originally Posted by Fat RT.

Implement everything else I said in my previous post, and change the set order so it's 1) SubSeed 2) Mixed Attacker 3)Choice Band. Also, Protect deserves an AC mention for the SubSeed set, it's really useful for racking up Hail/Leech Seed damage and scouting choiced attackers. Put Choice Scarf in Other Options, Abomasnow is too slow to make proper use of a Scarf set, and it doesn't even outrun +115's after the boost.

Add these things please.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat RT.

Add these things please.

Forgot about them...Anyways, implemented those, should now actually be ready.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I'm bumping this 'cause this has been ready for checks for about 10 days at this point.

[RT.]

AC is for specific counters that work exceptionally well against a particular set, general checks and counters like Darmanitan and Bronzong belong in C&C. Don't mention Mandibuzz as a teammate, it is completely irrelevant in UU. You need to add Rotom-F, Walrein, Slowbro, Escavalier and Nidoqueen - Rotom-F and Walrein are two of the best Hail abusers in the tier, and Slowbro, Escavalier, and Nidoqueen are commonly seen on Hail teams for their ability to benefit from/support Hail teams. You may also want to mention that Weather Ball Raikou is incredibly dangerous in Hail, because it can run Thunderbolt / HP Grass / Weather Ball to beat all of its usual counters, but it dies quickly to residual damage. You also need to expand your C&C section quite a lot before I can approve this, it's far too skimpy right now.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

This is ready for checks.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

This has been awaiting QC approval for more than two weeks now. Bumping for checks.

[kokoloko*]

mention what 148 speed beats exactly in the AC of the mixed set (find out if you don't know)

QC Approved 1/3

[Pokemazter]

QC Approved 2/3

Add more emphasis on the need for a spinner on the CB set. Abomasnow's inability to switch moves and bounce in and out of a match due to its Stealth Rock weakness really hurts it. I'd also add mention of Xatu - it's not the ideal teammate, but it can keep entry hazards away from Abomasnow and can spread Paralysis, which "fixes" Abomasnow's paltry speed.

[Santuga]

Just a note I found while going through Speed tiers. Gligar's set is listed with 4 Speed EVs, meaning it needs 208 Spe EVs on the CB set to outspeed

[LonelyNess]

Choice Band seems really unnecessary. I can't think of a single instance where you would need the extra power to facilitate a KO on a wall. You aren't breaking Bronzong regardless of what item you hold, Slowbro is going to fall to it regardless of what it does and so is Gligar. Snorlax is 2HKO'd with or without CB... Umbreon is too with Stealth Rock on the field. You actually fare BETTER against Zapdos because before, Ice Punch would fail to KO Zapdos and it could start Roost stalling. Now, you can Ice Punch and then use Earthquake when it tries to Roost (CB OHKO'ing Zapdos when Rocks are on the field is a moot point, Ice Punch + Ice Shard KOs Zapdos without retaliation, so in that scenario they both essentially "OHKO").

They both OHKO Flygon with Ice Shard, they both fail to KO Crobat after Stealth Rocks, so there goes the argument that "CB can revenge better". Honestly, I can't think of a single compelling case for Choice Band. I would never use it. If i was using 4 attack physical attacking, I would use Leftovers 100% of the time.