Rain Offense - A Discussion

[Brave Bird spam]

Originally Posted by Fat Tobes

Anyone have experience with Beartic (or other unusual Swift Swimmers) that they'd like to share?

I've used beartic before, and it was pretty good. With Lugia+ Groudon+ Giratina and co gone, something like kabutops or another fast poke that has trouble breaking walls can sweep incredibly easily. The only problem is-- beartic is ridiculously easy to revenge, all decently fast scarfers outspeed it and can prey on its relatively low bulk and bad defensive typing. It also isn't fun having rayquaza switch in and beartic getting OHKOed. Beartic is an ok wallbreaker but it's NU for a reason.
Also, I tried out a subpunching beartic and had decent success. Still testing it but it seems alright

[Infernis]

Figured this should go here, despite the slowness of the topic.

I've been putting together an Ubers rain team for the first time, and while said team is doing rather poorly at the moment, a certain member stands out.


Relicanth @ Choice Band
Swift Swim
Adamant 4 HP 252 Atk 252 Spe
- Head Smash
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide
- Waterfall / Aqua Tail
- Earthquake / Zen Headbutt / Bounce

Behold the terrible torpedo! The rampaging relic! None other than the amaranth coelacanth himself! This living fossil has just two things going for it in the Ubers tier. Number one, it has a skull made of hammers and hate. Number two, it's faster than greased death in the rain.

Choice Band is the best item you could ever hope for with Relicanth. You have four slots, but you really only need the one. 90% of the time, you're just using Head Smash until the enemy stops moving.

Swift Swim is necessary to go outspeed many special attackers who would otherwise massacre the terrific tetrapod. The loss of Rock Head means that you cannot sweep an entire team with Head Smash, but this is immaterial. With Rock Head you are not fast enough to sweep a single foe. The recoil from Head Smash is quite damaging, but Relicanth has enough HP to slay several if used at the right time.

For those rare times you don't want to use the nuclear option, Stone Edge is a good alternate STAB move that doesn't deal recoil. If you think you can take the rest of the enemy down with just over half the power and want to perpetuate a sweep, it's not terrible. The drop in power is quite substantial. Aqua tail can be used to the same effect, but hits most things that resist Head Smash harder. (Excadrill being a notable target.) The rain boost brings it up to almost two thirds the power of Head Smash, which can make it terrifying to Sand teams. Zen Headbutt hits fighting types hard, but Head Smash hits literally many of them harder.

Earthquake is another option for hitting steel types like Excadrill hard, but most of the relevant Pokemon are weaker to Aqua tail, which is both more powerful in the rain and has fewer immunities. Bounce is there for the silliness, mainly, but also for those rare occasions when you're out of Head Smash and need something to counter grass* and fighting types. The irony will not be lost upon your foe.

*I have actually used it once** to kill an Arceus(grass), but only when the guy had no other Pokemon to switch to. Beware of switches on the second turn, obviously.

**That's more than I've used Stone Edge. Head Smash is great.

The given EV spread grants Relicanth a fantastic 418 speed in the rain. That's more than Timid Mewtwo, neutral Deoxys and Deoxys-A, and all scarfed base 90 Pokemon investing 196. (Dialga, Ho-Oh, Reshiram, Zekrom, and notably Kyogre.) It ties with max invested versions of those Pokemon, and also Lilligant after Quiver Dance. (For the riskiest revenge kill of your life.) The only unboosted special attacker that can top this is Deoxys-S, which you should avoid like the devil. 252 attack lends the Mighty Sarcoptergygii its crushing strength. The rest go into HP to absorb slightly more recoil damage.

If you're not comfortable gambling against Modest Scarf Kyogre's Thunder, which I know I'm not, you can opt for a Jolly nature. This will bring you up to 458, just below the Timid variant. That can take you faster than Swift Swim Gorebyss, Heracross, max speed Deoxys-A and Deoxys, the aforementioned Swift Swim Beartic, +1 Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W, Rayquaza, and Mamoswine. The drop in power will lose you the guaranteed Kyogre OHKOs and a few others. Adamant is usually the superior choice.

THREAT LIST (All water damage calculations assumed to be used in rain unless otherwise stated.)

...

---

Specs Kyogre: Too slow for our fishy friend. After SR damage or a couple layers of spikes, the OHKO is guaranteed long before his Thunder wipes you out. The free rain is nice.

Scarf Kyogre: The fastest variants can speed tie, but most of these will simply be OHKO'd regardless of hazards.

Other Kyogre: The bulkiest can only be 2HKO'd, so make sure to weaken them a bit first. Even max HP/Def Kyogre takes 60-70% from Head Smash.

Arceus(Resistant to Rock): will only be 3HKO'd by Head Smash.

Arceus(Fighting): Zen Headbutt will actually 2HKO after Stealth Rock, which means that you can revenge kill a weakened one fairly easily, or you can headbutt a fresh one while they set up and then finish them off before they can kill you. (ExtremeSpeed can only 12HKO from a non-STAB Arceus.)

Arceus(Steel): Earthquake gets a 2HKO on this guy. His strongest attack against Relicanth is Thunder. This attack can do up to 99% damage to Relicanth, but it cannot OHKO.

Arceus(Ground): Ground-type Judgement will OHKO Relicanth flat out. But before it does that, Aqua Tail will deal 75-85% damage. If they're weakened and you have the freedom to select that move, they're a non-entity.

Arceus(Weak to Rock):

All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. The only downside is that they tend to have a lot of health. Taking one down from full health will remove 190 of Relicanth's 342 HP, so be cautious of that.

Arceus(Others):

Every one of these is 2HKO'd after stealth rock, with less bulky variants not requiring hazards. Of particular note is Extreme Killer Arceus, which can only touch you with the slow Earthquake. Relicanth can take 5 unboosted ExtremeSpeeds before falling, or 3 after a Swords Dance. Of course, basically all forms carry either Earthquake or Brick Break, both of which can murder Relicanth. As a revenge killer, Relicanth does swell. Be sure that the target Arceus is at least under 80% HP for maximum KO potential.

Blaziken: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash (usually) or Aqua Tail (always) before they can move. Even after a speed boost.

Cloyster: Head Smash will almost kill this guy twice. Beware his maximum speed sets after a Shell Smash, as its Hydro Pump has a decent chance to OHKO Relicanth in the rain. His physical moves can be tanked with ease.

Cresselia: All standard sets are 2HKO'd. She can't even touch Relicanth without Hidden Power Fighting, which is an occasional 2HKO. (But she'll never get off two.)

Darkrai: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Deoxys: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Deoxys-A: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Deoxys-D: Many forms are OHKO'd by Head Smash after stealth rock. The bulkier sets will be 2HKO'd. Its low health means that you won't even take much recoil!

Deoxys-S: OHKO'd by Head Smash, but beware. While Super Power will only get a 2HKO on Relicanth at best, a select few carry Energy Ball or Grass Knot to slaughter Kyogre and his buddies. Grass Knot you can take on the nose, if Relicanth is healthy enough. Energy Ball has a chance to OHKO even without entry hazard damage on Relicanth. If you expect they have a grass move, be very cautious. Otherwise, even the best Superpower available will only deal ~50% damage, and few Deoxys-S are maximally invested in Attack. Smash these ones. If Relicanth is damaged, it may be best to run away. This is one of the few Pokemon that will outrun you without boosts.

Dialga: All sets are easily 2HKO'd by Earthquake. Easy 3HKO if you're locked into Head Smash already.

Ditto: If you end up fighting yourself, don't panic. Hit them with Head Smash. They can't quite OHKO you, and you can't quite OHKO them. The last thing you want to do is let them get off a free Head Smash on a switch. Do what you can, then let something of yours revenge kill.

Dugtrio: All standard sets are OHKO'd by any of 6 separate recommended attacks before they can move.

Excadrill: Assuming you encounter it under the rain, you can OHKO before they move with either Earthquake or Aqua Tail. (Aqua Tail deals quite a bit more, but either is overkill.) Head Smash is not recommended, since it is only a 3-4HKO.

Ferrothorn: A hard counter to Relicanth. Best you can do is 3HKO with Head Smash. Sufficient hazards can reduce this to a 2HKO, but you're going to get Power Whipped long before this happens.

Forretress: Easy 2HKO, and it can't do much to stop you. Volt Switch can only 4HKO Relicanth.

Froslass: All standard sets are OHKO'd thrice over by Head Smash before they can move.

Garchomp: 2HKO with Head Smash, but more damage can be done with Aqua Tail. Decent chance to OHKO with Aqua Tail after Stealth Rock.

Gastrodon: Guaranteed 2HKO with Head Smash. Earth Power can hurt, but usually won't kill you outright.

Genesect: Most forms are automatically OHKO'd before they can move by Head Smash. 252 HP/Def is unlikely on a Genesect, but it allows it a large chance for survival. Max SpA Genesect will only 2HKO Relicanth with Thunderbolt. Thunder, while rare, is enough to kill Relicanth immediately. The recoil after taking the electric hit will usually finish you off, so be wary.

Giratina: Physically defensive sets can be 2HKO'd after stealth rock damage. Specially defensive sets need no hazards.

Giratina-O: All common sets are 2HKO'd. Only max defense Giratina requires hazard damage.

Gliscor: Even the bulky Substitute sets used in Ubers is OHKO'd by Aqua Tail and very easily 2HKO'd by Head Smash. The 75-85% damage is enough to prevent them from setting up a Substitute, and you can smash again. It can return fire with Earthquake for ~50% damage.

Gorebyss: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. Fun fact: Relicanth is still faster than Hydration Gorebyss under the rain after a Shell Smash. Go nuts. If they've Smashed and have Swift Swim, beware the Hydro Pump!

Groudon: If it's sunny out, DO NOT ENGAGE. If it's raining somehow, go to town with your water moves. Only extraordinarily bulky Groudon can withstand an Aqua Tail or Waterfall. With SR out, Aqua Tail even has a small chance to OHKO. In any weather except Rain, Groudon's Earthquake will simply slaughter Relicanth.

Heatran: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Aqua Tail before they can move. Head Smash will always OHKO after stealth rock damage. Relicanth fears neither of Heatran's STABs and will only take significant damage from HP grass. (Or Solarbeam if it's sunny, but Relicanth shouldn't be used outside of rain.)

Heracross: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash, Aqua Tail, or Zen Headbutt before they can move.

Ho-Oh: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash or Aqua Tail before they can move.

Hydreigon: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Jirachi: Bulky forms will only be 2HKO'd by Aqua Tail. Frailer forms can be OHKO'd after Stealth Rock. Earthquake will deal an almost negligibly lower amount of damage.

Jynx: All standard sets are OHKO'd four or five times over by Head Smash before they can move.

Kabutops: Swift Swim Kabutops will outspeed Relicanth, but you can OHKO it with your choice of Head Smash, Aqua tail, or Earthquake. The most you can take is ~75% from Waterfall. It would be thus recommended to use Aqua Tail or Earthquake to avoid killing yourself.

Kingdra: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash, but Swift Swim allows Kingdra to OHKO first with Hydro Pump or Draco Meteor. Still, a poor switch by the enemy can be catastrophic.

Kyurem-W: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Kyurem-B: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Landorus: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Aqua Tail (through screens, even!) or Head Smash (less powerful) before they can move.

Landorus-T: Aqua Tail will utterly wreck all but the bulky pivot set. (Which takes 86-102% damage from it.) If they're foolish enough to switch in a Landorus-T to fight you, either Stealth Rock damage will be enough to make it a guaranteed OHKO or you can just hit them again for the 2HKO.

Latias: All standard sets have a decent chance to be OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. Stealth rock seals the deal.

Latios: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Lucario: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Earthquake or Aqua Tail before they can move.

Ludicolo: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Lugia: Standard Calm Mind are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. The Great Wall set has a large chance to be OHKO'd, which is guaranteed after Stealth Rock.

Magnezone: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Earthquake before they can move. Aqua Tail is a solid 2HKO (chance to OHKO after spikes), if you fear they're baiting you into Earthquake against a flying or levitating foe.

Mamoswine: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Aqua Tail or Head Smash before they can move. Mamoswine at +1 speed can only be outrun by a Jolly Relicanth, who will only be able to guarantee the OHKO without spikes with Aqua Tail.

Manaphy: Decent chance to OHKO with Head Smash after Stealth Rock damage, otherwise 2HKO on the Calm Mind set. The Tail Glow set takes a tad more damage, enough to guarantee the OHKO with stealth rocks or have a 50% shot without.

Metagross: Best you can do is 2HKO with Aqua Tail or Earthquake. Hammer Arm can mess you up if Relicanth is wounded.

Mew: Good chance to OHKO with hazards down, otherwise just a solid 85-95% average damage to most sets.

Mewtwo: Guaranteed OHKO with Head Smash and Stealth Rock, otherwise you come very close. All life orb sets are guaranteed OHKOs after one round of attacking. (Which means Relicanth can revenge kill him easily, being faster than every nonscarfed form.)

Omastar: You'll speed tie this one, depending on your choice of nature. Good shot to OHKO with Head Smash. Earthquake can do so after SR damage. Beware both Hydro Pump and Earth Power, as Relicanth is no special tank.

Palkia: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. Strange physically bulky sets will require Stealth Rock damage.

Qwilfish: Faster than Relicanth. All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash, Earthquake, and Zen Headbutt. Luckily it's a physical sweeper, and none of its common moves will deal more than 50% damage to Relicanth. Beware Thunder Wave.

Raikou: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash, Aqua Tail, and Earthquake before they can move.

Rayquaza: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash. Usually twice over, just in case you were wondering about killing Rayquaza through Reflect. Rayquaza does have a 50% chance to OHKO Relicanth with Earthquake due to that sky-high attack stat. Outrage will never OHKO a Relicanth at full health. Play your cards right, and you can beat Sky Dragon with Old Fish.

Reshiram: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. Earthquake and Aqua Tail will also OHKO, but are only guaranteed after at least 6% damage from entry hazards.

Salamence: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move.

Scizor: All standard sets have a moderate chance to be OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. Stealth Rock guarantees it, and grants Aqua Tail a 100% chance to OHKO instead of 6.25%.

Shaymin-S: Terrified of grass-types as Relicanth normally is, this one flies. So it's dead. All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. Aqua Tail is a solid 2HKO, but you really want it dead before it uses Seed Flare.

Shedinja: All sets are murdered up to two thousand times over by Head Smash before they can move. Astounding.

Shiftry: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash before they can move. Do not engage under sunlight.

Skarmory: Head Smash is a solid 2HKO, but Aqua Tail does only slightly less. If Skarmory tries to Roost, Aqua Tail is by far superior. If it's not raining and Skarmory roosts, Earthquake does just as much as Aqua Tail does under rain. (But then they can stop roosting and wall you forever.)

Smeargle: All standard sets are OHKO'd by a plethora of moves before they can move. You can fuck this guy up six ways to Tuesday. The FEAR version might stop you, but no more than it would stop any of your other Pokemon.

Tentacruel: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash or Earthquake before they can move. Zen Headbutt is another option to OHKO, but is only guaranteed after hazards.

Terrakion: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Aqua Tail or Earthquake before they can move. Earthquake requires hazards to guarantee. Zen Headbutt can deal heavy damage, but won't commonly OHKO without at least 15% damage from hazards. Relicanth even outruns Scarf Terrakion under the rain.

Thundurus: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash and Aqua Tail. Prankster sets can paralyze Relicanth and leave him wide open for Evisceration By Lightning, though, so play it safe.

Thundurus-T: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash and Aqua Tail.

Tornadus: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash and Aqua Tail. As with Thundurus, beware Prankster.

Tyranitar: Most standard sets are OHKO'd by Aqua Tail. A OHKO with Head Smash is possible after at least 15% hazard damage. ScarfTar only needs a single layer of spikes to be OHKO'd by Head Smash as well.

Venusaur: Only extraordinarily bulky Venusaur will avoid the instant OHKO from Relicanth. As with most sun sweepers, don't face it head on in the sun. Grass moves are anathema to the amaranth coelacanth.

Victini: Head Smash and Aqua Tail will both eviscerate Victini before it can move. Earthquake will deal massive damage, but only OHKO after some hazard damage. Fun fact: Relicanth can take as little as 7% damage from Scarf Victini's V-Create, the only set faster than Relicanth. Bolt Strike, on the other hand, will cleanly 2HKO. Don't let Victini attack twice.

Whimsicott: Beware Prankster. Otherwise, you can outspeed it and OHKO with Head Smash. If all it's doing with Prankster is Taunt and Encore, well, you can give it what it asks for.

Wobbuffet: Oh shit. Wobbuffet tends to eat Choice sweepers for breakfast. The worst part is that your maximum damage is only ~78% with Head Smash. It's possible with enough hazards, but most likely you're going to get countered pretty hardcore.

Xatu: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash.

Zekrom: Frailer sets can be OHKO'd by Head Smash after hazard damage, otherwise you'll only 2HKO. 21% hazard damage can guarantee a OHKO on middling bulk sets, and will give a small chance to OHKO on even the bulkiest Zekrom. If you're going to fight Zekrom with Relicanth, be sure to kill it in one hit. Bolt Strike will do terrible things.

Zoroark: All standard sets are OHKO'd by Head Smash and Aqua Tail.

Team Options: Kyogre is a must, since Relicanth is far less useful outside of rain. A Pokemon to remove enemy Ferrothorn is a must, as Ferrothorn does well against both Relicanth and Kyogre. Removing enemy weatherbringers is a priority. Relicanth hates recoil, so lowering enemy HP with other sweepers or entry hazards is a great way to extend his lifespan. Stealth Rock is essential for a large number of OHKO's and a few 2HKOs. A spinblocker like Giratina could be used to keep those on the field.

Checks and Counters: Anything that resists Relicanth's STAB attacks is going to slow it down. Skarmory can be obnoxious outside of rain, and Ferrothorn wrecks Relicanth completely. Relicanth stands no chance against Chlorophyll sweepers under the sun, although his typing allows him a decent defense against boosted fire moves. Prankster status can slow him down before he even gets going, so watch out for enemy Thundurus and Tornadus. Timid 252 Spe Scarf Kyogre can either be utterly countered by Relicanth or utterly counter Relicanth, depending on the results of the speed tie. Deoxys-S can deal massive damage to Relicanth, though less so without Energy Ball.

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Did I miss anything? Point out any errors, and I'll do my best to fix them.

I am of the opinion that Relicanth can perform late game sweeping much more effectively than Kabutops, though he does not learn Rapid Spin.

[Tobes]

A few things:

Zen Headbutt does the same amount of damage to a Fighting-type as rain-boosted STAB Waterfall. Earthquake is also a less situational move than Bounce, since it hits Dialga hard and Grass Arceus is neutral to Head Smash. Also, Waterfall is generally preferred to Aqua Tail; the consistency and flinch rate are generally more beneficial than the slight boost in power. The set should look more like-

Relicanth @ Choice Band
Swift Swim
Adamant 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Head Smash
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

- Jolly Relicanth is not going to outspeed +1 Kingdra since Kingdra will have Swift Swim too.

- Kabutops is not an Extremekiller Arceus counter, and neither is Relicanth. If they can't take it out in one shot, they both die to +2 Earthquake. That said they're both good at revenge killing weakened Arceus.

- No sane Deoxys-S runs Energy Ball.

- You forgot to mention that Groudon completely hoses you by itself.

- CB Kabutops is definitely the better lategame cleaner. While Relicanth is much better at wall breaking, Kabutops is much faster (outspeeding Choice Scarf Palkia / Choice Scarf Genesect is very relevant), and its Waterfall is much stronger, which is very important for cleaning up lategame.

[Infernis]

I'll go back through and make the following changes:

- I forgot that Kingdra also has Swift Swim. I'll run damage calculations for that matchup, though I doubt Relicanth will stand up in such a fight.

- I'll clarify that the ExtremeSpeed Arceus matchup should only be done as a revenge kill. I had noted that Earthquake from Arceus would wreck Relicanth, but forgot to factor in that for some strange reason.

- Perhaps not, but I've seen Energy Ball more than a couple times while testing. Regardless, Deoxys-S can beat Relicanth toe-to-toe with a couple powerful Special moves if it carries the right ones and Relicanth is sufficiently damaged. Noted.

- I thought that I'd pointed out Groudon's ability to smash Relicanth to bits, but I guess I only listed the rain analysis. I'll note that.

It would seem that Ferrothorn and Genesect would need to be removed by a partnered fire type, since they both pose a threat. It is interesting that while Scarf Genesect outruns Relicanth, even max SpA Thunderbolt will only 2HKO. Thunder, while rare, is enough to kill Relicanth immediately. Countering with Head Smash will always OHKO all but the most defensive Genesect, but the recoil will finish you off. That's definitely a danger.

Obviously the main competition for a team slot is Kabutops. I'll put together a team for each of them and see where this goes. Though I suppose a dedicated rain team could use both, if you don't mind the massive grass and sun weakness.

[Sweep]

Relicanth has 55 base speed. This is not good enough to outrun Timid/Jolly scarved base 90's, let alone stuff like Scarf Palkia, even in rain. If Relicanth has just a little bit more speed (enough to outrun Timid scarf Kyogre) he would be awesome, but as it stands, Reli isn't that easy to use effectively. Bear in mind that Giratina-A and Ferrothorn are everywhere...

Relicanth, like Kabutops, hits very hard and can check EKiller. That alone makes it viable. With that said, I'm not sure a little extra base power in its main STAB move (Head Smash vs. Stone Edge) compared to choice band Kabutops makes it worth using over the latter. Kabutops can outspeed almost all standard scarfers barring Terrak (which it kills with CB aqua jet); Relicanth cannot. It's still cool that you are using it though.

Tornadus formes are not viable in Ubers. They are too frail and simply cannot hit hard enough. Choice Scarf 100% accurate hurricane in rain might seem nice, but compared to Kabutops' choice band waterfall, it falls short. Tornadus also has zero defensive staying power, and Uturn hits like a girl.

Edit: I have found 196 speed scarfers to be rare sights, except Dialga. Never assume aCS Kyogre will be slower than Relicanth because thunder obviously destroys it.

[Tobes]

Originally Posted by Fat Sweep

Tornadus formes are not viable in Ubers.

This is incorrect. Choice Scarf Tornadus is of course an absurd notion, but Tornadus can run a very effective Tailwind set. Its Hurricanes also hit surprisingly hard with a Life Orb, 2HKOing many prominent threats in Ubers at worst. Being able to outspeed Lati@s is nothing to scoff at either; even if its U-turns "hit like a girl", they do more than enough to the pair and will usually force them out. Flying-type is actually a STAB with very good coverage in Ubers, and its accuracy is hard to disrupt since Groudon does not like switching into Tornadus, as it risks eating a Grass Knot. Likewise, Tyranitar doesn't want to take a U-turn to the face only for Kyogre to come in for free. Tornadus's real value though is Prankster Tailwind. It makes cleaning up lategame a breeze (pardon the pun), and is also very useful for starting a countersweep against pretty much anything but an Extreme Killer Arceus that might currently be threatening your team with annihilation. Tornadus does need rain support and a team built to accommodate it, but it is very effective in its niche.

I won't comment on Tornadus-T, but I've heard it's effective enough as well.

[Sweep]

Fair enough. I admit to not being knowledgable enough about the Tornadus forms to comment, as I did not consider tailwind! I have seen people use them poorly though.

[Silverythoughts]

I wonder, with Hurricane Mewtwo being released soon, if we'll see the rise of that in its moveset along with Thunder to abuse the rain...

[Hugin]

Probably not combo'd with Thunder, the coverage is really bad. More likely, Psychic/Aura Sphere/Hurricane/whatever, since Fight/Fly is only walled by Electric types and a couple theoretical ghost types. Rain teams have enough Thunder-users anyway, MewTwo is better off with good coverage than just one more base-120 move that's useless in sun.

[jonathanrp]

Hurricane is bad coverage wise. You're still getting better coverage with Psystrike/Aura Sphere/Ice Beam / (I use fire blast cuz it still smashes Ferrothorn) . Hurricane doesn't really get any notable coverage

[Tobes]

Originally Posted by Fat Hugin

Probably not combo'd with Thunder, the coverage is really bad. More likely, Psychic/Aura Sphere/Hurricane/whatever, since Fight/Fly is only walled by Electric types and a couple theoretical ghost types. Rain teams have enough Thunder-users anyway, MewTwo is better off with good coverage than just one more base-120 move that's useless in sun.

I really hope you typo'd and meant Psystrike.

Anyway no good Mewtwo set is going to run Hurricane. Neutral coverage moves don't really mean anything. If Mewtwo is going to kill anything, the process usually follows something like this:

Does it die to Psystrike?
Y) Kill it with Psystrike
N) Use a coverage move that hits it super effectively and kill it with that.

Hurricane contributes nothing in this regard. In general neutral coverage only matters for your STAB moves, and after that you try to fill in the gaps by covering what resists your STABs. Why should I bother using Hurricane when anything relevant is hit just as hard, if not harder, by much more relevant coverage moves? The answer is "I shouldn't".

Hurricane Mewtwo is bad so let's not waste any more time talking about it.

[puregenius]

Zekrom @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Outrage
- Hone Claws
- Substitute

Zekrom @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 92 HP / 148 Atk / 252 SAtk / 16 Spd
- Bolt Strike
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Claw
- Focus Blast

zekrom is a really cool mon to use in rain offense

subhc helps break past one of the biggest annoyances, ferrothorn
in fact subhc can set up on ferrothorn and blow holes in the opposing teams often leading to sweeps from things like kingdra or tops

mixed zek is just as cool and is an excellent groudon lure
landing a meteor could mean winning the weather war
focus blast still deals heavy damage to ferro and his physical stabs are just as useful taking stuff like lugia out



scizor is pretty cool too with access to stuff like bullet punch to revenge kill threats like terra and a bunch of other weakened stuff
a steel typing never hurts and lets him tank some dragon hits
u turn is a pretty uncommon move in ubers, with only gene using it, and brings momentum to teams
thanks to rain, his fire weakness is reduced

[Haruno]

Originally Posted by Fat puregenius

Zekrom @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Outrage
- Hone Claws
- Substitute

Zekrom @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 92 HP / 148 Atk / 252 SAtk / 16 Spd
- Bolt Strike
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Claw
- Focus Blast

zekrom is a really cool mon to use in rain offense

subhc helps break past one of the biggest annoyances, ferrothorn
in fact subhc can set up on ferrothorn and blow holes in the opposing teams often leading to sweeps from things like kingdra or tops

mixed zek is just as cool and is an excellent groudon lure
landing a meteor could mean winning the weather war
focus blast still deals heavy damage to ferro and his physical stabs are just as useful taking stuff like lugia out

The first set you posted that "breaks" past ferrothorn can't really do much to it seeing as how both of your attacks are resisted. I guess if you count being able to get a free sub on ferro then it's sucessful but other than that it's not doing much. It's not really bad per se but groudon still walls it hard.

Mixed krom is cool though. Being able to lure and defeat zekrom's common checks/counters is nice to have though it's terrible speed will be its downfall. Tailwind zekrom although gimmicky can be quite effective if used properly.

[jonathanrp]

Ferro can't do anything to the first set though. you just sub, HC up and smash ferro with a boosted bolt strike.

[Haruno]

Originally Posted by Fat jonathanrp

Ferro can't do anything to the first set though. you just sub, HC up and smash ferro with a boosted bolt strike.

I have nothing to say if you assume someone using ferrothorn will stay in after zekrom subs against their leech/twave.

[Anikrahman1995]

Originally Posted by Fat Haruno

I have nothing to say if you assume someone using ferrothorn will stay in after zekrom subs against their leech/twave.

You are absolutely right. Ferrothorn will switch out after it sees that Thunder Wave or Leech Seed was blocked by Zekrom's Substitute. On the turn Ferrothorn switches out, Zekrom will gets one Hone Claws and still be behind a Substitute. This guarantees that Zekrom kills one Pokemon on the opponent's team since... it is likely that only Ferrothorn resists Zekroms STABs(the only other Pokemon is what? Magnezone?).

[jonathanrp]

According to you, it can't do anything to ferrothorn though, so why should ferro switch out if Zekrom " can't really do much to it"

so you sub against the leech seed

ferro user switches out while you HC, then you smash whatever comes in. Only thing in ubers that's even remotely able to withstand a +1 Zekrom is gonna be Groudon, and even that despises taking a +1 outrage, and it usually runs dragon tail as its phazing move, so it gets smashed by outrage as it breaks the sub, and then your opponent can either chose to send in Ferro to take the second outrage or say bye bye to groudon.

Originally Posted by Fat Anikrahman1995

You are absolutely right. Ferrothorn will switch out after it see that Thunder Wave or Leech Seed was blocked by Zekrom's Substitute. On the turn Ferrothorn switches out, Zekrom will gets one Hone Claws and still be behind a Substitute. This guarantees that Zekrom kills one Pokemon on the opponent's team since... it is likely that only Ferrothorn resists Zekroms STABs(the only other Pokemon is what? Magnezone?).

basically got ninja'd 9.9

also I apologize for that horrible run-on sentence T_T

[Tobes]

Originally Posted by Fat Haruno

The first set you posted that "breaks" past ferrothorn can't really do much to it seeing as how both of your attacks are resisted. I guess if you count being able to get a free sub on ferro then it's sucessful but other than that it's not doing much. It's not really bad per se but groudon still walls it hard.

+1 252+ Atk Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 204-241 (50.49 - 59.65%)

Not exactly walling it hard. Either Groudon phazes you out with Roar (losing ~half of its health in order to do so) or gets 2HKOed most of the time after Stealth Rock before it can kill Zekrom. It could of course switch out back to Ferrothorn to tank the second Outrage but:

+1 252+ Atk Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 153-181 (43.46 - 51.42%)

Not something Ferrothorn wants to eat. If it's a two-turn Outrage Zekrom just switches out to something that can handle Ferrothorn better (because you're a fool if you run only SubHC Zekrom to deal with Ferrothorn), and if it's a three-turn Outrage Ferrothorn has lost over half of its health. Which means that the next time that Zekrom gets in on Ferrothorn (or anything else that doesn't really threaten it) you could be in an assload of trouble because Groudon can no longer effectively tank Outrages. Zekrom doesn't directly beat Pokemon that rain has a hard time dealing with in a flashy display, but it gives them quite a bit of a headache and over time breaks them down enough that they no longer pose a significant enough threat to rain offense.

[IAmAnHero]

Since this thread is about Rain Offense I'm gonna post a set for Poliwrath. My friend came up with this and I watched him play around 10-15 games with it and it performed surprisingly well.


Poliwrath (Poliwrath) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 Def / 244 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Encore
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Brick Break/Ice Punch

It's basically to scout with Substitute and provide set up opportunities with Encore. It has 244 Speed EVs because that allows him to outspeed Jolly Scarf Terrakion by one point. The Attack EVs are because without investment he didn't hit very hard at all. The rest of the EVs can be thrown into Speed or whatever defense you want. Waterfall and Brick Break are obviously reliable stab moves. The choice between Brick Break and Ice Punch depends on if you need to hit Ferrothorn/Dialga/Extremekiller or Lati@s/Giratina/Other Dragons harder.

[lousy918]

belly drum > substitute, and hypnosis slashed with encore

[IAmAnHero]

It's not meant to be a sweeper though. It's meant for scouting which is why Belly Drum isn't there. Hypnosis is also kinda unreliable because 60% accuracy is bad which is why I think Encore would be better. If you have a Poliwrath set of your own you'd like to share I doubt anyone would have any objections.

[Theorymon]

Originally Posted by Fat IAmAnHero

Since this thread is about Rain Offense I'm gonna post a set for Poliwrath. My friend came up with this and I watched him play around 10-15 games with it and it performed surprisingly well.


Poliwrath (Poliwrath) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 Def / 244 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Encore
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Brick Break/Ice Punch

It's basically to scout with Substitute and provide set up opportunities with Encore. It has 244 Speed EVs because that allows him to outspeed Jolly Scarf Terrakion by one point. The Attack EVs are because without investment he didn't hit very hard at all. The rest of the EVs can be thrown into Speed or whatever defense you want. Waterfall and Brick Break are obviously reliable stab moves. The choice between Brick Break and Ice Punch depends on if you need to hit Ferrothorn/Dialga/Extremekiller or Lati@s/Giratina/Other Dragons harder.

While I haven't used that particular Poliwrath set before, I have used a similar one with Belly Drum over Substitute, and with an Adamant nature. I wasn't really fond of it! Beyond the issues with Belly Drum, Poliwrath was REALLY weak on its own. By weak, I mean "doesn't 2HKO Ferrothorn very often with STAB Brick Break" kind of weak!

A big part of the problem is Poliwrath's inexplicably shallow Fighting attack movepool. Because it just has Brick Break and base 85 Atk, Kabutops's Low Kick will usually outdamage it despite the lack of STAB! If I were to EVER test Poliwrath again, it would probably be something involving Encore, Life Orb, and maaaybe Bulk Up. That isn't looking particuarly promising after calcs either, as +1 Brick Break only does 82.92 - 98.51% to support Dialga... pretty weak for a STAB super effective move! +1 LO Rainy Waterfall also seems to do less to max HP Arceus than +2 Beartic Icicle Crash, and Beartic, despite having encore and more power, is a very niche rainmon itself! These calcs are also with Adamant, which is shame because I think Poliwrath actually needs a Jolly nature to outspeed Scarf Palkia >_>

So the only advantages of this hypothetical set I can see over Beartic are the lack of an SR weak (which I guess is cool) and a lot more speed... good selling points on paper I guess, but I'm still fairly skeptical of Poliwrath's ability to compete with other swift swimmers for the above reasons!

[IAmAnHero]

I don't think Poliwrath is too good to be honest. I feel the same way about Beartic. I said it performed surprisingly well because I was expecting it to be completely terrible. It was ok at best I suppose. I expected him to be a failure and was pleasantly surprised which is why I posted it.

[trixter109]

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Modest / Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

I guess I'll stay on topic and present one of my favorite Swift Swimmers out there. Ludicolo looks cool and is surprisingly very effective in the rain. Ludicolo also has the unique niche of being able to take Ferrothorn one-on-one. As we all know, Ludicolo is not blessed with the huge offensive stats like Palkia and Dialga, so this set is best used as a mid-game wallbreaker and a late-game sweeper. It is immune to Leech Seed and resists Gyro Ball and can 2HKO the iron thorn with Focus Blast. A rain-boosted STAB Hydro Pump will put a dent in anything not named Blissey or Chansey. I have seen sets that run Surf, but I like pure power on my sweepers and a Hydro Pump is where it's at. Grass Knot does great in Ubers because the tier is dominated by heavyweights, and will often be doing max damage. Ice Beam has excellent coverage in Ubers, easily OHKOing Rayquaza and Shaymin-S on the switch. Focus Blast is all Ludicolo has against a Ferrothorn, Dialga, and Tyranitar. The only resist to this set is Shedinja, which is easily taken care of by SR.

EVs all have to go to Speed and Attack because Ludicolo loves to have maximum fire-power and is frail anyway. The nature depends on if you want to outrun certain threats or hit as hard as possible. With Timid, Ludicolo does loss a lot of power but gains the ability to outspeed Scarf Terrakion, Palkia, and even Adamant Kabutops.

As for team options, you have to have Kyogre to be able summon the infinite rain that Ludicolo loves. Ludicolo is easily revenge killed by the likes of Rayquaza and Wobbuffet. Rayquaza conceals out the precious rain and outpaces Ludicolo, then Rayquaza proceeds to OHKO with Draco Meteor or Outrage. Wobbuffet traps and OHKOs Ludicolo with Mirror Coat. Zekrom and Darkrai are excellent answers to Wobbuffet. The former fires off powerful Bolt Strikes and Draco Meterors to KO Wobbuffet, while the latter is immune to Mirror Coat and puts a huge dent in Wobbuffet with its STAB Dark Pulse. Darkrai also deals with Giratina, who never gets 2HKOed by Ice Beam, can phaze Ludicolo out with Dragon Tail, and heal with rest. Scarfkia can outrun and OHKO a +1 Speed Rayquaza with Spacial Rend. I think we all agree that Ludicolo isn't the hardest hitting Swift Swimmer and can use hazard support. Ferrothorn, Forry, and Support Dialga help set up hazards and have no trouble fitting into a rain team.

While Ludicolo isn't the best Swift Swimmer, I like him because he is one of the few mons that can handle a Ferrothorn one-on-one. Ludicolo is also one of the best late-game cleaners a rain team can have with its perfect coverage and Swift Swim ability. Anyway, I hope this helped you out in some way and all of the damage calculations will be under a spoiler tag below.

Damage Calculations

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252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 195-231 (55.39 - 65.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Groudon in rain: 712-842 (176.23 - 208.41%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza: 499-593 (142.16 - 168.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 582-686 (170.67 - 201.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Dialga: 239-283 (59.15 - 70.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in rain: 499-588 (123.51 - 145.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon in rain: 853-1006 (203.09 - 239.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 530-624 (148.04 - 174.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken in rain: 876-1032 (290.06 - 341.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 328-385 (81.18 - 95.29%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Threat List

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Rayquaza: Rayquaza would normally be outspeed by Ludicolo in rain, but thanks to its Air Lock, Rayquaza easily outruns Ludicolo and OHKOs with its Outrage or Draco Meteor
Wobbuffet: Wobbuffet is not OHKOed by any of Ludicolos moves ad can trap Ludicolo in. Wobbuffet can also KO Ludicolo with Mirror Coat.
Blissey / Chansey: The big pink blobs can sponge most of Ludicolo's attacks and recover off the damage with Softboiled.
Zekrom: Zekrom is not OHKOed by Ice Beam and can easily OHKO Ludicolo with a Bolt Strike or Draco Meteor.
Arceus-Normal: Both the EKiller and Choice Band set are threats here because Ludicolo is OHKOed by +1 ExtremeSpeed from EKiller and cannot OHKO while EKiller sets up SD.
Giratina-A: While none of Giratina-A's sets pose an offensive threat, they can outstall Ludicolo with ease.
Note: I know there is more, but I'm tired right now and need to get some sleep before Easter!!

Thanks for reading,
trixter109