np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard - Page 3

gengarsnemisis · Feb 5th, 2013, 1:39:32 AM

I think its pretty well established that sr/spikes/taunt is pretty mandatory. So he really has one 'free' slot. If your not using spikes and sr, your better off using something else.

These arguments of deo-d running these random moves is silly, this kinda example can be said about any pokemon, for example ballontran is a great check to ddnite, but this particular ddnite is running superpower!, although running superpower leaves him checked by other things. Same applies for deo-d. Theres really only a few fully-optimal sets, anything else just has 'suprise' factor, which isnt a strong enough argument for banning.

Woodchuck · Feb 5th, 2013, 1:50:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Soul Fly

Well Last Time I checked Genesect was Banned for the Very same reason. No it couldn't have had all] it's superb coverage moves in one set. but The unpredictability factor was enough to push it to Ubers. Going by precedent we shouldn't making that allowance for Deo-D..

Laying up Hazards, you must realize is a very deft advantage. Getting rocks up without fail will almost always give you a decisive advantage. If you can ensure that no matter what Sash will always be broken, Volcarona will be made useless, DNite will lose it's multiscale with 100% guarantee and tons of other stuff like Reveral sets etc become non-issues it suddenly gives you an enormous advantage with little or no risk. Plus Volt-Turn cores are severely limited with Hazards up. This makes the Already very Popular Hyper Offense more OP.

I find it funny how people gather with pitchforks to ban offensive mons but when it comes to making certain playstyles completely redundant you have arguments like this.

First of all, learn to use the Shift key properly.

Second, Genesect is in no way comparable to Deoxys-D. One is a check to the majority of the metagame and a devastating Rock Polish sweeper, and the other... is a hazards setter.

Third, I find your Dragonite and Volcarona lines of argument to be hilarious when both of those Pokemon (especially the faster Volcarona) often set up on Deoxys-D and sweep many of these hyper offense teams. alexwolf's Deoxys-D team, for example, is pretty much 6-0ed by Timid LO Volcarona.

The effect that Deoxys-D has had on Volt-Turn is interesting, but I can't see how limiting Volt-Turn is in any way a bad thing for the metagame :P

Reversal sets are already a non-issue, lol. If you're running Deoxys-D, chances are there aren't going to be many Pokemon that care about Sash Reversal Dugtrio on your team.
And you've listed a lot of reasons for why Stealth Rock is good, but none for why Deoxys-D's ability to lay Stealth Rock and Spikes makes it broken.

The point of most Deoxys-D teams is to set up hazards right away and then keep them up on the field via offensive pressure / forcing Starmie to be Pursuit trapped or something. This is not unstoppable. For every set that Deoxys-D runs, there is something that can set up on it or prevent/remove its hazards. Pokemon like Volcarona and Thundurus-T are basically given free reign to set up earlygame against Deoxys-D and wrest away the momentum that is so precious to hyper offense. If Deoxys-D can consistently build up an insurmountable momentum advantage from the beginning of the game, then it's broken and banworthy. If it can't do that? It's not.

All of the other arguments I'm seeing are beating around the purpose of these teams and consequently the real issue of this discussion.

youngjake93 · Feb 5th, 2013, 1:54:38 AM

Exactly... All these arguments seem to assume that Deoxys-D can have 8 moveslots and hold 4 items AND have a crystal ball to always use Magic Coat/Taunt only when they aren't attacking you with flawless prediction to GUARANTEE 2 layers of hazards.
Deo-D is good, but Rapid Spin, Magic Coat, Magic Bounce and Taunt exist.
And no one is going to run electric gem thunderbolt, you can't seriously pretend that it is viable... so Starmie and Tentacruel will always ruin Deo-D's day. Even if you are gonna run it, then you fork over a useful moveslot AND item slot which puts you in an even worse position.

Edit: Plus... since when does 2 layers of hazards mean auto win? Especially when you give your opponent 2 free turns while you set them up -_-
You can easily still win with rocks and spikes on your side of the field

**ginganinja** · Feb 5th, 2013, 1:56:06 AM

Quote:

I understand that Deoxys-D is definitely a great Pokemon, but some of these arguments are ridiculous. Deoxys-D can't run Taunt / Spikes / Stealth Rock / Magic Coat / Thunderbolt / HP Fire / Psychoboost. There ARE Pokemon that set up on and make life hell for Deoxys-D teams (Double Dance Thundurus-T, anyone?) and it's still possible to spin against these teams. Oh wait, Deoxys-D might have a coverage move that can KO your spinner? Maybe you could switch it out to scout for it. Deoxys-D, once again, cannot have all of those moves at the same time. Is the aggregate of its sets broken, or is Deoxys-D broken in individual cases in games?

No one is arguing that Deoxys-D can run all of these moves, the fact is, it CAN run these moves, and this is what makes Deoxys-D so hard to handle. The fact of the matter is, if Scizor is your Deoxys-D check / counter, and you run into an HP Fire variant, then your counter got raped, AND Deoxys-D is sitting pretty at 100% health, still able to set up SR and Spikes or whatever the hell it wants. This is the scenario Deoxys-S created as well, it had counters and checks, but its wide movepool allowed it to fuck with you 100% if you got its set wrong, and this made it unhealthy for the metagame.

In regards to your spinner switching in and out the same thing applies for Deoxys-D. You can bring in your spinner, take SR damage (and lets say Spikes), and then, expect a T-Bolt and switch right out. However, it turns out this Deoxys lacked that super effective attack you were so worried about so - fuck - that pokemon you switched in took hazard damage for nothing, and Deoxys-D got another free turn to set up yet another layer of Spikes. Now you have to get your spinner back in, take even MORE damage, and hope you are not taking a Night Shade on the switch, or if Deoxys-D simply switches out, free to pressure your entire team (and your spinner) with hazard damage. This is the coinflip scenario Deoxys-D takes.

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Yes, entry hazards are excellent and give the Deoxys-D team an advantage, but the tradeoff is they risk losing to Timid Volcarona / Double Dance Thundurus-T / Terrakion being played competently. Deoxys-D is not Deoxys-S. It cannot Taunt everything, no questions asked, and yet it isn't bulky enough to avoid being 2HKOed by strong attackers. What about Deoxys-D and its ability to set up hazards makes this worth it, or even broken? Why are hazards such an insurmountable advantage? At what point does "early game advantage" become enough to ban a Pokemon that is almost never an offensive threat in a match?

Actually, both Volcarona and Terrakion risk being Thunder Waved (Terrakion can Sub but its Sub gets broken by Night Shade so again, its a coinflip, so its not really that easy to set up on Deoxys-D as you claim. Heck, if I got to cripple your Terrakion in exchange for my Deoxys-D's death, thats a fucking win in my book, a 1 for 1 that took out a danagerous set up sweeper that my team no longer needs to worry about. Remember, those hazards that Deoxys-D sets up don't have to be up all game. Your opponent can increase the pressure by using pokemon such as DD Nite (haha you lacked SR up turn #1 cos Deoxys-D cockblocked it) or other set up sweepers that make it next to impossible to get your spinner in safely and spin. Even then, many HO teams carry a Gengar, so you need to predict the Gengar switch in, OHKO it, and even then you get forced out by something faster anyway, racking up the hazard damage. Sure, you might spin eventually, but by the the hazards would have taken their toll, and its too little too late.

These hazards, are such a problem because it is free damage per switch, and an offensive team forces switches like no tomorrow, least you get swept by something. The issue at hand is that Deoxys-D will almost always get up 1 layer, but often 2 layers, exceptionally early in the match, and then it dies, and your opponent can put instant pressure with a high powered sweeper ready to break your team down. The ease and how consistent it is makes Deoxys-D very popular, because despite what you claim, in practise its very difficult to stop Deoxys-D doing its job, as its so good at gaining instant momentum for the HO team.

Quote:

At what point does "early game advantage" become enough to ban a Pokemon that is almost never an offensive threat in a match?

Highlighting this point again. Don't you dare try and get cute here, you are well aware we banned Deoxys-D which was also never really an offensive threat. Sure it had a LO set which was nice, but what pushed it over the line (based on the opinions of many who banned Deoxys-S) was its DS and Spiker sets, which could get past their counters depending on the moveset choice, and fuck you over, NOT for the offensive presence they had. Deoxys-D does the same, but to a slightly lesser degree than Deoxys-S and this is what is causing frustration for many, since it really is so hard to handle.

EDIT

Quote:

I think its pretty well established that sr/spikes/taunt is pretty mandatory. So he really has one 'free' slot. If your not using spikes and sr, your better off using something else.

Actually I ran into a HO team that happened to have Rocky Helmet Garchomp with SR (prevent that Starmie from spinning once it hits 25% or below I guess), and the Deoxys-D had Thunder Wave + Spikes + Taunt, which made it exceptionally hard for my lead Sash Terrakion (with taunt!!) to beat since Mental Herb would shut me down as I would get paralysed, and then taunted / hazards got set up.

Also I am in no way saying that Deoxys-D is unbeatable. FFS Genesect was beatable with the right prediction, so was Tornadus-T, and heck, so was Excadrill. However just because something might have a check, or a counter, or something does not mean its not broken. The wide movepool of Deoxys-D, and how flexible its move choices can be make dealing with it exceptionally hard, and if it has the right moveset / item choices, your counter got shut down / killed and you just lost the game, the fact that Deoxys-D has 1-2 moveslots that can literally be anything it fucking wants make it suck a hassle to prepare for. Granted, many pokemon can have a versatile moveset (like MixNite for example), but what pushs Deoxys-D over the edge is its bulk and ease as to how it sets up its hazards, and how it can shutdown many attempts to set up on it. Against Dragonite, you might lose your Balloon Heatran to a surprise Superpower, but then you know its Mixed, and you can deal with it accordingly. Deoxys-D however, just got a surprise KO on Scizor, is at 100% AND has the bulk + speed to still get up a layer or 2. This puts you down 2 layers and a pokemon, giving the HO team a _MASSIVE_ advantage. If you have a counter for Deoxys-D great, it might work once, it might work twice, but maybe the third, forth and fifth times you run into the moveset that cockblocks your counter and lose all 3 times. The fact is Deoxys-D can do this easily, and at no net disadvantage because ALL of its sets are viable, good, and get around certain things that counter it. This isn't like EQ Latios which is rare as fuck, there are so many viable Deoxys-D sets running around with only slight differences from one to the other. All of them can get past their counters / checks and this make sit such a headache.

Woodchuck · Feb 5th, 2013, 2:00:04 AM

Quote:

Highlighting this point again. Don't you dare try and get cute here, you are well aware we banned Deoxys-S which was also never really an offensive threat. Sure it had a LO set which was nice, but what pushed it over the line (based on the opinions of many who banned Deoxys-S) was its DS and Spiker sets, which could get past their counters depending on the moveset choice, and fuck you over, NOT for the offensive presence they had. Deoxys-D does the same, but to a slightly lesser degree than Deoxys-S and this is what is causing frustration for many, since it really is so hard to handle.

not trying to be cute :>
actually I'm more trying to tease out reasoning for banning Deo-D which you have provided so thank you!!!

This is actually what I wanted to get to, haha. What are the differences between Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D's effects on the metagame?

Actually, now that you bring that up, I'm curious about Deoxys-D's abilities as a Dual Screener. Has anyone achieved much success with screens hyper offense? Dual screens seemed to be a significant part of Deoxys-S's ability to set up hyper offense and fuck over opposing teams when you could pretty much get 2 screens + SR 99% of the time and then set up Shell Smash Cloyster or something. Does Deoxys-D have that ability? Is this the difference between Deoxys-S being broken and Deoxys-D being not broken?

Deluks917 · Feb 5th, 2013, 2:02:50 AM

On one hand I don't think Deo-D should be banned. On the other hand Deo-D seems to me to be as good of a lead in this meta as Deo-S would be. Was Deo-S really banned based on its lead set not its late game cleaner set?

Soul Fly · Feb 5th, 2013, 2:15:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Woodchuck

First of all, learn to use the Shift key properly.

Second, Genesect is in no way comparable to Deoxys-D. One is a check to the majority of the metagame and a devastating Rock Polish sweeper, and the other... is a hazards setter.

Well if you care to read my first post (somewhere on page 2) I have already addressed all the concerns you make. Specifically the importance of the term counters

Quote:

you've listed a lot of reasons for why Stealth Rock is good, but none for why Deoxys-D's ability to lay Stealth Rock and Spikes makes it broken.

Deoxys-D exemplifies every advantage hazards has on the metagame. if it can get them reliably up, then you already have all these advantages at your side. I was just quoting all the possibilities open to you with 100% guaranteed hazards. Sorry, but cherrypicking like that will get us nowhere.
You must realize a pokemon by itself must not always necessarily by a super offensive metagame rapist to be ban worthy. The fact that Deoxys-D will almot always get it's job done and thus give an unfair advantage to shuffling/Hyper Offense teams is a noteworthy fact.

Quote:

Third, I find your Dragonite and Volcarona lines of argument to be hilarious when both of those Pokemon (especially the faster Volcarona) often set up on Deoxys-D and sweep many of these hyper offense teams.

Well I don't see how that's very funny. I run both Volcarona and Dragonite on my current standard OU team and they definitely cannot set up on Deo-D. Dragonite gets immediately taunted by most Speedy variants and Volcarona can reach a max +1, before it's taunted and I ran calcs on my previous post on how it cannot OHKO the defensive ones under any circumstances without a critical hit or something, even with something like 252/252. Same Case with Dragonite. Deo-D will even Survive that Outrage.

And if it has red card? good job. You lose your boosts AND Deo-D gets hazards up.

Now you'll say "It cannot have all these EV spreads and optional items together can it? lol how hilarious"

Well good luck Guessing which spread it runs because all the movesets are 90% identical.

EDIT: You might want to read this. I've covered this aspect in detail here.

Hugin · Feb 5th, 2013, 2:24:27 AM

Just for reference, since people are throwing around a lot of odd sets:

...

HP Fire happens 6% of the time, and fire gem 2%. Skill Swap is 4%. Those aren't major threats in this meta. Neither is Electric-gem TBolt, which didn't even show up. Yes, DNA can run that sort of thing, but sometimes you do just get unlucky, that's how the game is played.

Deo-D has really 1 set to worry about, Spikes/SR/Taunt/coverage. Item is Leftovers/Rocky Helmet/Red Card/Mental Herb. Yes, it can do other stuff(dual-screens HO scares the crap out of me, I literally have no way to handle it on my current team), but fortunately that other stuff doesn't show up, being incredibly niche and overshadowed compared to his main set.

Soul Fly · Feb 5th, 2013, 2:26:31 AM

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Electric-gem TBolt

Oh god, don't tell me this is a thing.

Hugin · Feb 5th, 2013, 2:35:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Soul Fly

Oh god, don't tell me this is a thing.

2 people posted that as a Starmie/Tentacruel counter earlier in this thread. I'm unsure on Deo-D, but sets like that make baby Arceus cry.

ssbbm · Feb 5th, 2013, 2:51:58 AM

thoughts:

personally i dont see why deo-d is broken. it's a really good mon, and it does kill a bunch of viable strategies (non deo-d weatherless ho is shit in a deo-d meta), but i personally dont think deo-d really breaks the metagame more than rain or other things.

for me, dealing with deo-d isn't supposed to be some "oh look i have a magical counter to deo-d", but rather "oh, if it's a bulky set-up mon then i'm going to force my opponent to be down 6-5 to have two layers of hazards while having them being forced to deal with a +1/+1 sweeper", or "i'm going to spin against them by playing smart with my spinner and sending it in AFTER deo-d has died". i understand that this is an oversimplification, but i think that there's a lot of pressure on both sides, not just the deo-d side. it's not like deo-d ho can play mindlessly (if you do, you WILL lose) - deo-d doesn't dramatically decrease the skill needed imo. they still need to keep hazards up (if they dont' they lose basically 100%), and the spin/block war isn't really dramatically in favor of either player.

furthermore, it's not like it's really that hard to set up against a lot of deo-d. basically every single set-up sweeper sets up (although red-card is a bitch, i guess, but i haven't seen it nearly as much) and is really threatening to the standard deo-d ho team.

i also don't think hazards are THAT good that having them earlier by a few turns makes you win by a very large margin. why arent more people making less hazard weak teams? a bunch of my teams have barely any hazard weak pokemon - i mean, the metagame is already hazard centric with stuff like tentacruel and ferro, it's pretty important to run hazard independent pokemon. perhaps this is just my playstyle, but i don't think that hazards are as important early game (besides sr, but that's hardly deo-d exclusive) as scouting.

deo-d might be broken, but i dont' think it is compared to everything else. ive never seen deo-d in team preview and went "oh shit it's a deo-d!!!" unlike when i faced genesect or excadrill or even deo-s.

that being said, the new suspect meta is a lot lot lot lot more enjoyable especially since i can run other types of weatherless ho without being boned by deo-d ho!

Pikachuu · Feb 5th, 2013, 3:20:01 AM

Why I think Deoxys-D should be banned in my opinion:

Not many pokemon can outright OHKO it and pretty much nothing can 100% of the time prevent it from setting up hazards. Xatu and Espeon? wrong. Deoxys-D with Skill Swap are starting to get really common and it laughs at the attempts of Espeon or Xatu trying to block it from doing so. Amazing bulk lets it tank a lot of hits while he sets up as many hazards he can before dying. Has recover to last longer. Very versatile and has usable attacking stats to beat things like Scizor, Tyranitar, Starmie etc. Not to mention once it dies this really benefits the Deoxys-D user as he can safely bring in a threat ready to wreak havoc. Very difficult to spin against as they often use Gengar not to mention even if you were to take out Gengar with something like Starmie it's not guaranteed you will spin as your opponent can simply bring in another faster threat to put a lot of offensive pressure on you. Good players won't just let their Deoxys-D die after setting up Stealth Rock, they can simply bring it in later to set up Spikes. Beats Pranksters and faster Taunters with Magic Coat or Mental herb. Sun teams will almost always straight up lose to HO teams with Skill Swap Deoxys-D and a ghost type. You can pretty much slap a Deoxys-D and Gengar on to a team plus 4 other top OU offensive threats and you will win much more than you lose. I really hope they add another way to get rid of hazards in 6th gen.

HabibsHotDogs · Feb 5th, 2013, 4:03:24 AM

I never understood this obsession with Deoxys-D. It is much easier to deal with than Politoed for example and INCREDIBLY predictable. Even the [very] few that stray from the standard norm will at most surprise you for a turn but inevitably become underwhelming for the remainder of a battle.

I seriously can not think of a pokemon of the top of my head that is more predictable than Deoxys-D, at least Forretress might randomely volt switch your ghost, hp ice your dragon or earthquake your Magnezone whilst being an exclusive spiker or sometimes being a maxed hazard user with red card. It also retains usefulness out of the lead position and in a nutshell, it is much less predictable than Deo-D despite being another fairly predictable pokemon.

Why Deo-D is predictable:

-It is almost exclusively used in the lead position and will almost exclusively carry one or no attacking moves
-It is almost exclusively attached to the same team archetype (hyper offense or otherwise a similar hazard abusing/needing team structure)
-It is almost exclusively using the same set with a little variation, mental herb/rocky helmet/red card as items with hazards/taunt/magic coat/attacking move as its options.
-It is one dimensional as it is incredibly difficult to find another set to work on it.

How easy Deo-D is to counter:

-U turn lead + magic bounce
-Band/Specs/SE moves that can 2hko, Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar, etc
-Faster taunt users, Keldeo, Terrakion, Gliscor, etc
-Mons to set up on it, such as gengar
-Rapid spin user - (the Gengar switch in is SO predictable) (u can even lead with donphan.. of all pokemon... and spam rapid spin :)
-Team that doesn't mind SR

This is in a VERY VERY VERY strong contrast to the requirements needed in order to counter a rain team or a sun team, consider a weatherless team's building process.

1. How to manage Deo-D > Just use LO+Taunt Keldeo and smash holes in their team
2. How to manage rain > Said Keldeo + Celebi to check water/electric + Skarmory to check hurricane/Jirachi whilst making sure there are minimal fire attackers and minimal water weak pokemon
3. How to manage sun + hail + sand > Said keldeo + Celebi + Skarmory + Heatran to wall some Venusaur and fire sweepers/hail + Scarfed Latios incase shit hits the fan
4. How to manage everything else: Said Team + Landorus-T to give a more reliable check to pokemon that otherwise threaten the team.

Notice that countering Deo-D was the easiest part of the teambuilding process.....

Bent1ey · Feb 5th, 2013, 4:05:29 AM

Interesting Suspect, entry hazards are definitively among the most defining and powerful effects in the meta and DD is pretty much the top hazard user in the whole meta. I personally haven't found him to be such a problem, but I suppose it depends on what kind of team it is supporting and if those teams are getting an unfair advantage by running DD instead of another pokemon.

Anyways, I'm not on either side of this ban discussion, but it's an interesting choice that shows that the Council can tackle archtype defining elements. I cannot see this suspect discussion as a proof of the community being "ban happy" in any way or form.

Myzozoa · Feb 5th, 2013, 4:14:36 AM

disclaimer: please do not infract this post, it will contain both on topic and off-topic discussion.

I know that I cannot really say anything about Deoxys-D unbiasedly, but just as I am biased towards retaining Deoxys-D in OU because my 'best' style is no weather offense, others are biased against it only for the opposite reason: it is a style they find difficult to play against. This could be said about any suspect, but I'm saying this before yee calls me out...

The reason why Deoxys-D is so good is because, depending on the moveset, it can 'end' the game on turn 1. This is directly due to the huge advantage given by early hazards. That is the intuitive reason for Deoxys-D's brokenness. The less direct reason is that the opponent must find a way to beat Deoxys-D and in doing so may be forced to lead something that isn't actually a very strong lead. For example you see my Deoxys-D and lead your choice banded Scizor, but instead I lead my Rotom-w which can then get a free burn or volt-switch as you switch out. But that isn't the end, now that your 'check' is forced out I send my Doexys-D in again and get all my hazards. The point of this exercise in theorymon is to show:

1. Deoxys-D raises the stakes of the first few turns, where little information is known about either team. It increases the importance of guess work.
2. A carefully supported Deo-D almost always gets a chance to set-up its hazards.

The first point is the main reason why we are testing Deoxys-D instead of testing Ferrothorn.

But this is merely the story of what Deoxys-D does well in the context of an offensive team. Deoxys-D also has issues. There are two important surface level issues:

1. Deoxys-D usually dies in the process of setting up, so the user of Deo-D starts 5-6, with 1-4 layers of hazards. This is not necessarily a disadvantage, but it should be noted that using Deo-D puts you a pokemon down right away.
2. Rapid Spinners very easily undo Deoxys-D's work. Magic Bounce shuts down most sets completely.

The counterpoint to #2 is that Gengar can be used as a spin blocker preventing Deoxys-D from being useless. But I think that those with experience using Gengar can back me up when I say that Gengar really only prevents Donphan and Forretress from spinning, and other common rapid spinners have little problems with Gengar. I don't want to hear about Jellicient, for those who haven't tried it, it isn't very good with Deo-D.

With Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory all common pokemon, not to mention every SR user, is it really too much of an expectation that non-offensive teams run a spinner? I think that this is not overly presumptive: teams require spinners in this metagame to be viable. Xatu and Espeon are used just as much for Deo-D as it is for any hazard setter.

So basically: I respect why people dislike Deo-D, but:

1. Most teams have ways of dealing with it in the same why they deal with Ferrothorn, and in some senses Ferrothorn is harder to deal with than Deo-D.

2. In order to really use Deoxys-D in the way that makes it broken, you probably need two pokemon to help it. One pokemon to allow to it to enter safely in order to get multiple levels. another to stop rapid spin. That is not a trivial amount of support, it certainly takes much less support for some pokemon (venu, terrakion, tentacruel) to become unmanageable.

Pan. · Feb 5th, 2013, 4:15:03 AM

I don't really have any problems with this 'mon, because the main thing to do, when you battle against a team with Deoxys-D is to remove their spinblocker. And that is easy work with Toxic / Toxic Spikes Support in case of a Jellicent for example.

The main problem in deoxys is the enormous bulk, that let's it setup screens and clear the way for a heavy offense sweep.

ready to ladder!

**ginganinja** · Feb 5th, 2013, 4:18:36 AM

nitpicking this cos its late and I don't feel like typing up another large post but...

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Faster taunt users, Keldeo, Terrakion, Gliscor, etc

Mental herb says hi (and is prolly the item most seen at higher levels). You fail to taunt it and it Thunder Wave you, then proceeds to get 2 layers down ( or more if it gets a para). You lose this matchup.

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Team that doesn't mind SR

This is a ridiculous way to beat Deoxys-D. Remembering that some of the best pokemon in the game are weak to SR (Salamence / Dragonite / Thundurus-T / Volcarona / Ninetales (for its sunlight not its attacking prowess) and idk, Kyurem-B this is not as easy as it sounds. You also need to bear in mind that even if you make your team NOT weak to SR, you are still taking 12.5% per switch REGARDLESS which is a significant amount at higher levels of play. This is even ignoring the fact that you most likely have a grounded team which means that heck, Spikes might be more damaging toward you anyway. I honestly have no fucking idea why you can promote restricting your teambuilding (by making your entire team not weak to SR / hazards) to such a fucking degree to handle Deoxys-D, and then claim its not at all broken.

Heck I have an easier time handling Politoed (Pretty much most Grass Types / Sun Teams / Electric types / Dragon Types / Swift Swimmers / etc etc) than Deoxys-D so idk what your getting at.

Also id prolly consider Scizor / Ferrothorn / Vaporeon / Tentacruel / Jolteon / Hippowdon / random other defensive pokemon etc ec pretty predictable as well

EDIT

Quote:

2. In order to really use Deoxys-D in the way that makes it broken, you probably need two pokemon to help it. One pokemon to allow to it to enter safely in order to get multiple levels. another to stop rapid spin. That is not a trivial amount of support, it certainly takes much less support for some pokemon (venu, terrakion, tentacruel) to become unmanageable.

Can you please clarify this please. Does Deoxys-D (usually the "lead") really need a pokemon to help it get in safely? Stopping Rapid Spin is something I can understand, usually the common tactic is to bring in Gengar on a spin, put pressure on Forry, Tenta, Donphan etc), (don't say spinners will always attack off the bat, prediction goes both ways in this scenario) maybe take a chunk from said spinners, Gengar dies, bring in your sweeper and put the opponent in a nasty situation, do they Spin, and give a free opportunity for set up (or face having your weakened spinner KOed) or switch, (and take more damage switching AND still have to bring in your spinner, while taking hazard damage and finding the time against an offensive team AND giving a free turn to the opponent). Either option is a nasty one, and its this scenario that often crops up with Deoxys-D. Deoxys-D (imo) doesn't really need much support at all imo, its possible (although not as successful in the long run) to drop Gengar in favour of another sweeper, and just focus on preventing the spinner comming in, or forcing said spinner into a lose lose situation. But anyway, im getting off track and was really wondering why you think Deoxys-D needs to have a teammate to bring it in safely?

HabibsHotDogs · Feb 5th, 2013, 4:40:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Mental herb says hi (and is prolly the item most seen at higher levels). You fail to taunt it and it Thunder Wave you, then proceeds to get 2 layers down ( or more if it gets a para). You lose this matchup.

As much as that works vs taunt I can argue that politoed with psychic works vs toxicroak but at the end of the day going with mental herb means you're losing to other pokemon, such as donphan (lol), sub Gengar/Zam and others

This is a ridiculous way to beat Deoxys-D. Remembering that some of the best pokemon in the game are weak to SR (Salamence / Dragonite / Thundurus-T / Volcarona / Ninetales (for its sunlight not its attacking prowess) and idk, Kyurem-B this is not as easy as it sounds.

If you are using a team with pokemon weak to SR, chances are you are running a spinner! Especially in "highly competitive games" where you claim mental herb is so common, paranoid about donphan losing to gengar? it learns head smash

You also need to bear in mind that even if you make your team NOT weak to SR, you are still taking 12.5% per switch REGARDLESS which is a significant amount at higher levels of play. This is even ignoring the fact that you most likely have a grounded team which means that heck, Spikes might be more damaging toward you anyway. I honestly have no fucking idea why you can promote restricting your teambuilding (by making your entire team not weak to SR / hazards) to such a fucking degree to handle Deoxys-D, and then claim its not at all broken.

I worded that poorly, by "deal with SR" I mean, "is capable of performing its basic function against most teams despite the hindrance of SR", as for the spikes, there's ways to circumvent that, such as the afore mentioned band chomp (del-d's common friends can't really switch in on the outrage either). Heck I've used teams full of levitators/flying tyypes/idgaf about spikes pokemon before to great success :P (Try Land + Rotom + Gengar) Notice how in my "generic weatherless team" theres 2 ways of beating del-d, such as trick latios AND taunt Keldeo...

Heck I have an easier time handling Politoed (Pretty much most Grass Types / Sun Teams / Electric types / Dragon Types / Swift Swimmers / etc etc) than Deoxys-D so idk what your getting at.

Oh no you are not comparing deo-d to Politoed, Politoed has singlehandedly been the cause of major discussion since the advent of BW and Smogon has chosen to do EVERYTHING to nerf its impact EXCEPT ban it. The moment Deo-D pushes Salamence or Gengar to ubers breaking point is the moment you can compare deo-d to the absolute top tier pokemon of OU. Seriously, EVERY team has multiple ways of dealing with rain if they want to be moderately successful... Politoeds support for a team is leagues ahead of what Deo-D can do...

edit: by "predictable" I mean it really only has one purpose, and is almost always used in the same way (lead+ similar set + similar team), even hippodown has elements of unpredictability, you will never know if your +2 Terrakion will be ohkoing a sp defensive set or losing to a defensive set.

Jolteon has a viable sub + BP set, ferrothorn can wall from both sides (I lol when LO Gengar fails to ohko an 85% 252/252+ with focus blast), scizor can be banded/lure/scarf/SD, Tentacruel can be a dedicated spinner and beat Jelli or a rain tank that walls ferrothorn's problems. I agree Vaporeon is mildly predictable but not on the level of Deo-D

Myzozoa · Feb 5th, 2013, 4:52:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Can you please clarify this please. Does Deoxys-D (usually the "lead") really need a pokemon to help it get in safely? Stopping Rapid Spin is something I can understand, usually the common tactic is to bring in Gengar on a spin, put pressure on Forry, Tenta, Donphan etc), (don't say spinners will always attack off the bat, prediction goes both ways in this scenario) maybe take a chunk from said spinners, Gengar dies, bring in your sweeper and put the opponent in a nasty situation, do they Spin, and give a free opportunity for set up (or face having your weakened spinner KOed) or switch, (and take more damage switching AND still have to bring in your spinner, while taking hazard damage and finding the time against an offensive team AND giving a free turn to the opponent). Either option is a nasty one, and its this scenario that often crops up with Deoxys-D. Deoxys-D (imo) doesn't really need much support at all imo, its possible (although not as successful in the long run) to drop Gengar in favour of another sweeper, and just focus on preventing the spinner comming in, or forcing said spinner into a lose lose situation. But anyway, im getting off track and was really wondering why you think Deoxys-D needs to have a teammate to bring it in safely?

This is a vast oversimplification of the theorymon, which I don't care to discuss in generalities, because it comes down to 'it all depends how much Deo-D player supported its strategy vs how much the opponent supported its rapid spin, and what pokemon either player has'. Bw is team match-up oriented and Deo-D fits in well in this regard.

That so called 'common tactic' just resulted in the Deo-D player losing gengar and only getting 1 layer up. I haven't a clue which sweepers you think can set up on tentacruel or starmie without a care. Breloom maybe. Dnite loses multi-scale to rapid spin, everything else is hit s.e by ice-water coverage. Lati@s and Rotom-w can come in, but they aren't set-up sweepers and they don't put any special pressure on in this instance more than another instance. I suppose things can set-up on Donphan and Forretress, which already struggle with Deo-D. I would think that most players would regard that scenario as a disadvantage even though they put the opponent in that predicament.

The reason Deo-D needs support to get in is because without it, you only get SR up. To get more than one layer you need to have a way to dodge CB Tar, Scizor, the random pokemon that get by your coverage scheme (if you lack mental herb you need to have something to force away the fast taunt, if they have a magic bounce you need something to discourage it), set-up sweepers, trick users, etc, etc. Naked Deo-d can be fine sometimes, but a lot of the time you just get screwed when you start 5-6 with no hazards or get swept straight out.

**Glen** · Feb 5th, 2013, 5:12:10 AM

i think deo-d is in a league of its own compared to every other suspect before it in that its competitive ramifications are wildly different depending on the level of play.

the precedent set by the outcome of this test will therefore be an extremely important one. if deo-d gets banned, it will be an example of smogon bending to the will of the top 1% of players. if it doesn't get banned, it will be an example of smogon continuing down the path of 'funsies' where we strive to make the metagame as 'fun' as possible to the largest number of people, regardless of their skill level, which is completely at odds with a site devoted to being as competitive as possible.

i don't think deo-d is broken or anything but i hope it gets banned, if only because the consensus among the best players seems to be that it's bad for the game, and i'd rather see the future of OU in their hands than in the hands of the general public.

HabibsHotDogs · Feb 5th, 2013, 5:24:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Glen

i think deo-d is in a league of its own compared to every other suspect before it in that its competitive ramifications are wildly different depending on the level of play.

the precedent set by the outcome of this test will therefore be an extremely important one. if deo-d gets banned, it will be an example of smogon bending to the will of the top 1% of players. if it doesn't get banned, it will be an example of smogon continuing down the path of 'funsies' where we strive to make the metagame as 'fun' as possible to the largest number of people, regardless of their skill level, which is completely at odds with a site devoted to being as competitive as possible.

i don't think deo-d is broken or anything but i hope it gets banned, if only because the consensus among the best players seems to be that it's bad for the game, and i'd rather see the future of OU in their hands than in the hands of the general public.

I find what you said hilarious.

So in general it is OK to have 3 pokemon that are run exclusively because they are able to deal with politoed/rain but it is not ok to run 1 or 2 pokemon at most that can deal with Deo-D?

Afaik if you're playing at the top level, you're playing to beat the threats you see there most, I always have a hard Keldeo counter on my team if I'm actually aiming for rank as when I pass 1900, things like her become almost standard (she isn't quite as easy as revenging as Terrakion and she has some sets Terrakion can never compete with).

The way I see it is a big whingefest because people don't want to think of ways to deal with deo-d and just use the excuse that hazards + high pressure teammates are too incredibly hard to overcome.

I had similar preconceived notions about Jirachi and Dragonite in the past, thinking both were certainly deserving of being uber (most recently Jirach) but its all a matter of learning to accomodate for pokemon that are going to be threatening to a lot of teams that don't otherwise account for it.

MapleDoom · Feb 5th, 2013, 5:27:48 AM

"Slap item on me and kill threats" said the Deoxys-D, throwing rocks at the foe with ease.

Until now, I really haven't decided whether this thing should be ubers or not. While I really just love using ShakeItUp's fire gem set, I really don't think this thing is good for the meta.

"Status? No fahk you. I haz a magical coat, along with my herb of minor statusing." Said the Deoxys to the Sableye

The thing about Deoxys-D is how versatile its item usage can be, whether it's a Mental Herb, an Elemental Gem, or a Red Card, its still able to use each of them efficiently. It's item can really just keep you guessing, like Genesect. Is it Scarfed? Is it RP? Is it Banded? (lol)

Ugh, finally you're suspecting this thing. Imma ladder with Enter the Dragon.

Neliel · Feb 5th, 2013, 5:34:48 AM

Im fine with this thing in uber, i think its quite stupid that something can always setup stealth rock and probably spikes without anyway to avoid it (because of some troll moves like Skill swap, magic coat, mental herb and so on)
I dont think its uber by itself but the fact that you can make a deo-d+5 random sweeper a viable choice in ou its very stupid.
The only thing im worried about is, why should i use a weatherless team now? without deo-d weatherless teams will just lose any sense to exist.

**ginganinja** · Feb 5th, 2013, 5:44:30 AM

Quote:

Oh no you are not comparing deo-d to Politoed, Politoed has singlehandedly been the cause of major discussion since the advent of BW and Smogon has chosen to do EVERYTHING to nerf its impact EXCEPT ban it. The moment Deo-D pushes Salamence or Gengar to ubers breaking point is the moment you can compare deo-d to the absolute top tier pokemon of OU. Seriously, EVERY team has multiple ways of dealing with rain if they want to be moderately successful... Politoeds support for a team is leagues ahead of what Deo-D can do...

You made the comparision first not I, nor am I claiming that Deoxys-D is a better supporter than Politoed. I was merely stating that I personally have an easier time vs Politoed and a harder time vs Deoxys-D whereas you are the opposite. Relax.

Quote:

I worded that poorly, by "deal with SR" I mean, "is capable of performing its basic function against most teams despite the hindrance of SR", as for the spikes, there's ways to circumvent that, such as the afore mentioned band chomp (del-d's common friends can't really switch in on the outrage either).

Don't try and deflect, your argument was not "Ill use CB Chomp to beat Deoxys-D" (that was point 2) it was to make a team that doesn't mind SR (and I assume Hazards). I don't really care tbh if you made a successful Levitator / Flying team, the fact is its limiting on your teambuilding process, and id even consider that an arguement FOR a Deoxys-D ban rather than against.

Quote:

As much as that works vs taunt I can argue that politoed with psychic works vs toxicroak but at the end of the day going with mental herb means you're losing to other pokemon, such as donphan (lol), sub Gengar/Zam and others

Yea but Psychic Politoed is nowhere near as common as Mental Herb Deoxys-D (I couldn't even find Psychic on Politoeds moveset stats just to show how rare it was). You don't really "lose" to Zam either imo (what item would you use anyway to beat Zam / Gengar???) since Shadow Ball is only a 3KO giving you time to get up SR and break the Zam sub so idk, ,are you using LO Zam or something since most of the ones I see are sash :/

Quote:

That so called 'common tactic' just resulted in the Deo-D player losing gengar and only getting 1 layer up. I haven't a clue which sweepers you think can set up on tentacruel or starmie without a care.

Yea my apologies, most of the stuff that can set up hates IB (which I foolishly disregarded due to me not personally seeing it as much) but the point (sort of) still stands, you bring in a pokemon that forces the spinner out and keeps the offensive momentum while forcing hazard damage.

Thanks for clarifying the bringing in supporter for bringing in Deoxys-D thing tho. I have never really seen it on the ladder myself (or its never been a factor for me) so I guess ill take your word for it. Would be nice if I got other peoples views on that tho since im surprised not to have seen it if its so important. Regardless, thanks again for clearing things up!

shrang · Feb 5th, 2013, 5:49:51 AM

Hey, don't hate on offensive Deo-D. I used to think it was shit, but now I take that all back. It is such a troll set that completely fucks with pretty much all its usual checks. I do think Fire / Electric Gem are pretty dumb, so I use Life Orb on mine. It pretty much kills any spinner in the metagame with no trouble at all. In fact, if you have an SR user, you can drop it for another coverage move and run Spikes + 3 attacks. I use:

Deoxys-D @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Spikes
- Psycho Boost
- Hidden Power Fire
- Thunder / Stealth Rock

Thunder OHKOes Starmie at 100% with no problem at all. Even if it's turn 1, I'd generally go for the 70% hit anyway.

Feb 5th, 2013, 1:39:32 AM	#51
gengarsnemisis Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 125	I think its pretty well established that sr/spikes/taunt is pretty mandatory. So he really has one 'free' slot. If your not using spikes and sr, your better off using something else. These arguments of deo-d running these random moves is silly, this kinda example can be said about any pokemon, for example ballontran is a great check to ddnite, but this particular ddnite is running superpower!, although running superpower leaves him checked by other things. Same applies for deo-d. Theres really only a few fully-optimal sets, anything else just has 'suprise' factor, which isnt a strong enough argument for banning. __________________ PS name- uberscape

Feb 5th, 2013, 1:54:38 AM	#53
youngjake93 Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 263	Exactly... All these arguments seem to assume that Deoxys-D can have 8 moveslots and hold 4 items AND have a crystal ball to always use Magic Coat/Taunt only when they aren't attacking you with flawless prediction to GUARANTEE 2 layers of hazards. Deo-D is good, but Rapid Spin, Magic Coat, Magic Bounce and Taunt exist. And no one is going to run electric gem thunderbolt, you can't seriously pretend that it is viable... so Starmie and Tentacruel will always ruin Deo-D's day. Even if you are gonna run it, then you fork over a useful moveslot AND item slot which puts you in an even worse position. Edit: Plus... since when does 2 layers of hazards mean auto win? Especially when you give your opponent 2 free turns while you set them up -_- You can easily still win with rocks and spikes on your side of the field __________________ http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3475016 Rate My Team?

Feb 5th, 2013, 2:24:27 AM	#58
Hugin Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 104	Just for reference, since people are throwing around a lot of odd sets: ... \| Deoxys-Defense \| +----------------------------------------+ \| Raw count: 54854 \| \| Avg. weight: 0.59005531331 \| +----------------------------------------+ \| Abilities \| \| Pressure 100.000% \| +----------------------------------------+ \| Items \| \| Leftovers 32.583% \| \| Rocky Helmet 22.642% \| \| Red Card 22.219% \| \| Mental Herb 9.424% \| \| Life Orb 3.361% \| \| Light Clay 2.801% \| \| Fire Gem 2.296% \| \| Other 4.674% \| +----------------------------------------+ \| Spreads \| \| Timid:252/0/0/0/4/252 20.867% \| \| Timid:252/0/4/0/0/252 19.622% \| \| Calm:252/0/4/0/252/0 16.970% \| \| Jolly:252/0/4/0/0/252 2.831% \| \| Timid:252/0/0/0/0/252 2.030% \| \| Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252 1.835% \| \| Other 35.845% \| +----------------------------------------+ \| Moves \| \| Stealth Rock 85.405% \| \| Spikes 82.645% \| \| Taunt 70.234% \| \| Recover 27.851% \| \| Magic Coat 25.047% \| \| Night Shade 19.641% \| \| Seismic Toss 18.657% \| \| Toxic 14.579% \| \| Thunder Wave 11.821% \| \| Psycho Boost 8.623% \| \| Hidden Power Fire 6.242% \| \| Skill Swap 4.344% \| \| Light Screen 3.513% \| \| Reflect 3.340% \| \| Other 18.058% \| HP Fire happens 6% of the time, and fire gem 2%. Skill Swap is 4%. Those aren't major threats in this meta. Neither is Electric-gem TBolt, which didn't even show up. Yes, DNA can run that sort of thing, but sometimes you do just get unlucky, that's how the game is played. Deo-D has really 1 set to worry about, Spikes/SR/Taunt/coverage. Item is Leftovers/Rocky Helmet/Red Card/Mental Herb. Yes, it can do other stuff(dual-screens HO scares the crap out of me, I literally have no way to handle it on my current team), but fortunately that other stuff doesn't show up, being incredibly niche and overshadowed compared to his main set.

Feb 5th, 2013, 4:14:36 AM	#65
Myzozoa Buffalo Soldier Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,106 It could be anywhere most likely could be any frontier any hemisphere	disclaimer: please do not infract this post, it will contain both on topic and off-topic discussion. I know that I cannot really say anything about Deoxys-D unbiasedly, but just as I am biased towards retaining Deoxys-D in OU because my 'best' style is no weather offense, others are biased against it only for the opposite reason: it is a style they find difficult to play against. This could be said about any suspect, but I'm saying this before yee calls me out... The reason why Deoxys-D is so good is because, depending on the moveset, it can 'end' the game on turn 1. This is directly due to the huge advantage given by early hazards. That is the intuitive reason for Deoxys-D's brokenness. The less direct reason is that the opponent must find a way to beat Deoxys-D and in doing so may be forced to lead something that isn't actually a very strong lead. For example you see my Deoxys-D and lead your choice banded Scizor, but instead I lead my Rotom-w which can then get a free burn or volt-switch as you switch out. But that isn't the end, now that your 'check' is forced out I send my Doexys-D in again and get all my hazards. The point of this exercise in theorymon is to show: 1. Deoxys-D raises the stakes of the first few turns, where little information is known about either team. It increases the importance of guess work. 2. A carefully supported Deo-D almost always gets a chance to set-up its hazards. The first point is the main reason why we are testing Deoxys-D instead of testing Ferrothorn. But this is merely the story of what Deoxys-D does well in the context of an offensive team. Deoxys-D also has issues. There are two important surface level issues: 1. Deoxys-D usually dies in the process of setting up, so the user of Deo-D starts 5-6, with 1-4 layers of hazards. This is not necessarily a disadvantage, but it should be noted that using Deo-D puts you a pokemon down right away. 2. Rapid Spinners very easily undo Deoxys-D's work. Magic Bounce shuts down most sets completely. The counterpoint to #2 is that Gengar can be used as a spin blocker preventing Deoxys-D from being useless. But I think that those with experience using Gengar can back me up when I say that Gengar really only prevents Donphan and Forretress from spinning, and other common rapid spinners have little problems with Gengar. I don't want to hear about Jellicient, for those who haven't tried it, it isn't very good with Deo-D. With Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory all common pokemon, not to mention every SR user, is it really too much of an expectation that non-offensive teams run a spinner? I think that this is not overly presumptive: teams require spinners in this metagame to be viable. Xatu and Espeon are used just as much for Deo-D as it is for any hazard setter. So basically: I respect why people dislike Deo-D, but: 1. Most teams have ways of dealing with it in the same why they deal with Ferrothorn, and in some senses Ferrothorn is harder to deal with than Deo-D. 2. In order to really use Deoxys-D in the way that makes it broken, you probably need two pokemon to help it. One pokemon to allow to it to enter safely in order to get multiple levels. another to stop rapid spin. That is not a trivial amount of support, it certainly takes much less support for some pokemon (venu, terrakion, tentacruel) to become unmanageable. __________________ The simplicity of the ghostlike beast The purity of what he wants And where it goes Always love Always loves you Always loves with, infrared love Last edited by ginganinja; Feb 5th, 2013 at 4:21:01 AM. Reason: I won't infract but please don't complain that the shit you wanted suspected isn't curently a suspect. Stay on Topic

Feb 5th, 2013, 4:15:03 AM	#66
Pan. Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 147 Loch Ness	I don't really have any problems with this 'mon, because the main thing to do, when you battle against a team with Deoxys-D is to remove their spinblocker. And that is easy work with Toxic / Toxic Spikes Support in case of a Jellicent for example. The main problem in deoxys is the enormous bulk, that let's it setup screens and clear the way for a heavy offense sweep. ready to ladder! __________________ interested in getting an amazing avatar like i do? check out my fansite/homepage in the profile =D

Feb 5th, 2013, 2:02:50 AM	#56
Deluks917 Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 247	On one hand I don't think Deo-D should be banned. On the other hand Deo-D seems to me to be as good of a lead in this meta as Deo-S would be. Was Deo-S really banned based on its lead set not its late game cleaner set?

Feb 5th, 2013, 2:51:58 AM	#61
ssbbm Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,000 Where you can play Pokemon with Singing Narwhals and Dancing Clouds	thoughts: personally i dont see why deo-d is broken. it's a really good mon, and it does kill a bunch of viable strategies (non deo-d weatherless ho is shit in a deo-d meta), but i personally dont think deo-d really breaks the metagame more than rain or other things. for me, dealing with deo-d isn't supposed to be some "oh look i have a magical counter to deo-d", but rather "oh, if it's a bulky set-up mon then i'm going to force my opponent to be down 6-5 to have two layers of hazards while having them being forced to deal with a +1/+1 sweeper", or "i'm going to spin against them by playing smart with my spinner and sending it in AFTER deo-d has died". i understand that this is an oversimplification, but i think that there's a lot of pressure on both sides, not just the deo-d side. it's not like deo-d ho can play mindlessly (if you do, you WILL lose) - deo-d doesn't dramatically decrease the skill needed imo. they still need to keep hazards up (if they dont' they lose basically 100%), and the spin/block war isn't really dramatically in favor of either player. furthermore, it's not like it's really that hard to set up against a lot of deo-d. basically every single set-up sweeper sets up (although red-card is a bitch, i guess, but i haven't seen it nearly as much) and is really threatening to the standard deo-d ho team. i also don't think hazards are THAT good that having them earlier by a few turns makes you win by a very large margin. why arent more people making less hazard weak teams? a bunch of my teams have barely any hazard weak pokemon - i mean, the metagame is already hazard centric with stuff like tentacruel and ferro, it's pretty important to run hazard independent pokemon. perhaps this is just my playstyle, but i don't think that hazards are as important early game (besides sr, but that's hardly deo-d exclusive) as scouting. deo-d might be broken, but i dont' think it is compared to everything else. ive never seen deo-d in team preview and went "oh shit it's a deo-d!!!" unlike when i faced genesect or excadrill or even deo-s. that being said, the new suspect meta is a lot lot lot lot more enjoyable especially since i can run other types of weatherless ho without being boned by deo-d ho!

Feb 5th, 2013, 3:20:01 AM	#62
Pikachuu Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 46	Why I think Deoxys-D should be banned in my opinion: Not many pokemon can outright OHKO it and pretty much nothing can 100% of the time prevent it from setting up hazards. Xatu and Espeon? wrong. Deoxys-D with Skill Swap are starting to get really common and it laughs at the attempts of Espeon or Xatu trying to block it from doing so. Amazing bulk lets it tank a lot of hits while he sets up as many hazards he can before dying. Has recover to last longer. Very versatile and has usable attacking stats to beat things like Scizor, Tyranitar, Starmie etc. Not to mention once it dies this really benefits the Deoxys-D user as he can safely bring in a threat ready to wreak havoc. Very difficult to spin against as they often use Gengar not to mention even if you were to take out Gengar with something like Starmie it's not guaranteed you will spin as your opponent can simply bring in another faster threat to put a lot of offensive pressure on you. Good players won't just let their Deoxys-D die after setting up Stealth Rock, they can simply bring it in later to set up Spikes. Beats Pranksters and faster Taunters with Magic Coat or Mental herb. Sun teams will almost always straight up lose to HO teams with Skill Swap Deoxys-D and a ghost type. You can pretty much slap a Deoxys-D and Gengar on to a team plus 4 other top OU offensive threats and you will win much more than you lose. I really hope they add another way to get rid of hazards in 6th gen.

Feb 5th, 2013, 4:03:24 AM	#63
HabibsHotDogs Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 236	I never understood this obsession with Deoxys-D. It is much easier to deal with than Politoed for example and INCREDIBLY predictable. Even the [very] few that stray from the standard norm will at most surprise you for a turn but inevitably become underwhelming for the remainder of a battle. I seriously can not think of a pokemon of the top of my head that is more predictable than Deoxys-D, at least Forretress might randomely volt switch your ghost, hp ice your dragon or earthquake your Magnezone whilst being an exclusive spiker or sometimes being a maxed hazard user with red card. It also retains usefulness out of the lead position and in a nutshell, it is much less predictable than Deo-D despite being another fairly predictable pokemon. Why Deo-D is predictable: -It is almost exclusively used in the lead position and will almost exclusively carry one or no attacking moves -It is almost exclusively attached to the same team archetype (hyper offense or otherwise a similar hazard abusing/needing team structure) -It is almost exclusively using the same set with a little variation, mental herb/rocky helmet/red card as items with hazards/taunt/magic coat/attacking move as its options. -It is one dimensional as it is incredibly difficult to find another set to work on it. How easy Deo-D is to counter: -U turn lead + magic bounce -Band/Specs/SE moves that can 2hko, Gengar, Garchomp, Tyranitar, etc -Faster taunt users, Keldeo, Terrakion, Gliscor, etc -Mons to set up on it, such as gengar -Rapid spin user - (the Gengar switch in is SO predictable) (u can even lead with donphan.. of all pokemon... and spam rapid spin :) -Team that doesn't mind SR This is in a VERY VERY VERY strong contrast to the requirements needed in order to counter a rain team or a sun team, consider a weatherless team's building process. 1. How to manage Deo-D > Just use LO+Taunt Keldeo and smash holes in their team 2. How to manage rain > Said Keldeo + Celebi to check water/electric + Skarmory to check hurricane/Jirachi whilst making sure there are minimal fire attackers and minimal water weak pokemon 3. How to manage sun + hail + sand > Said keldeo + Celebi + Skarmory + Heatran to wall some Venusaur and fire sweepers/hail + Scarfed Latios incase shit hits the fan 4. How to manage everything else: Said Team + Landorus-T to give a more reliable check to pokemon that otherwise threaten the team. Notice that countering Deo-D was the easiest part of the teambuilding process.....

Feb 5th, 2013, 4:05:29 AM	#64
Bent1ey Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 216	Interesting Suspect, entry hazards are definitively among the most defining and powerful effects in the meta and DD is pretty much the top hazard user in the whole meta. I personally haven't found him to be such a problem, but I suppose it depends on what kind of team it is supporting and if those teams are getting an unfair advantage by running DD instead of another pokemon. Anyways, I'm not on either side of this ban discussion, but it's an interesting choice that shows that the Council can tackle archtype defining elements. I cannot see this suspect discussion as a proof of the community being "ban happy" in any way or form.

Feb 5th, 2013, 5:12:10 AM	#70
Glen Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,490	i think deo-d is in a league of its own compared to every other suspect before it in that its competitive ramifications are wildly different depending on the level of play. the precedent set by the outcome of this test will therefore be an extremely important one. if deo-d gets banned, it will be an example of smogon bending to the will of the top 1% of players. if it doesn't get banned, it will be an example of smogon continuing down the path of 'funsies' where we strive to make the metagame as 'fun' as possible to the largest number of people, regardless of their skill level, which is completely at odds with a site devoted to being as competitive as possible. i don't think deo-d is broken or anything but i hope it gets banned, if only because the consensus among the best players seems to be that it's bad for the game, and i'd rather see the future of OU in their hands than in the hands of the general public. __________________ nothing about the source or the end

Feb 5th, 2013, 5:27:48 AM	#72
MapleDoom Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 85 (´･ω･`)	"Slap item on me and kill threats" said the Deoxys-D, throwing rocks at the foe with ease. Until now, I really haven't decided whether this thing should be ubers or not. While I really just love using ShakeItUp's fire gem set, I really don't think this thing is good for the meta. "Status? No fahk you. I haz a magical coat, along with my herb of minor statusing." Said the Deoxys to the Sableye The thing about Deoxys-D is how versatile its item usage can be, whether it's a Mental Herb, an Elemental Gem, or a Red Card, its still able to use each of them efficiently. It's item can really just keep you guessing, like Genesect. Is it Scarfed? Is it RP? Is it Banded? (lol) Ugh, finally you're suspecting this thing. Imma ladder with Enter the Dragon. __________________ I go by the name of "Not Lavos Spawn" on PS &Hugendugen: who is this Hugen Dugen? &Mikel: a skank who think she's pretty &Mikel: and is rather large

Feb 5th, 2013, 5:34:48 AM	#73
Neliel Victors must always speak of the way the world should be, not the way it is. Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 474 Mentor	Im fine with this thing in uber, i think its quite stupid that something can always setup stealth rock and probably spikes without anyway to avoid it (because of some troll moves like Skill swap, magic coat, mental herb and so on) I dont think its uber by itself but the fact that you can make a deo-d+5 random sweeper a viable choice in ou its very stupid. The only thing im worried about is, why should i use a weatherless team now? without deo-d weatherless teams will just lose any sense to exist. __________________ Check out team of the week!