ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

[Frosty]

To be honest I prefer having them decay and speed multiply by 1.75. The first because in ASB pokemon tend to last for a while and you have the potential to turn a problem into...another problem.

The second because it's close to reality. A 80 speed mon with max EVs with +1speed is faster than a 120 mon with max EVs. I am too lazy to give actual calcs here, but if you just stick with raw 80*1.5=120 math, you will end up with an underpowered boost that isn't what happens in-game. Remember that, unlike in-game, you can't just sweep with extra speed. Its good, yeah, but not that good.

As for just sticking the boost in the BAP, I am all for it, as long as you just make it +1.5 always, so it goes from +1 to +3.375. If you just say its an additional rank, there is a big chance you will pass through rank 5 and end up with an actually weaker boost ._. .

[Dogfish44]

Originally Posted by Fat Frosty

To be honest I prefer having them decay and speed multiply by 1.75. The first because in ASB pokemon tend to last for a while and you have the potential to turn a problem into...another problem.

It's been quite a while since I've seen a Pokémon last more than 4 rounds to be frank. I don't think longetivity will be too much of an issue here - And I prefer a system where the rules don't appear to change every other week, or if the ref happens to be the path of a lunar eclipse next tuesday. I've been in ASB for quite a while and I don't fully understand the system, it's ridiculous to expect a newer person to do so.

The second because it's close to reality. A 80 speed mon with max EVs with +1speed is faster than a 120 mon with max EVs. I am too lazy to give actual calcs here, but if you just stick with raw 80*1.5=120 math, you will end up with an underpowered boost that isn't what happens in-game. Remember that, unlike in-game, you can't just sweep with extra speed. Its good, yeah, but not that good.

I'm confused here - the argument seems to be that it weakens speed, but I actually cannot figure out what you mean here.

Speed boosts and drops are already the most powerful, and the power drop this would give (It's not a big drop in the power, and in time it becomes the more powerful). I only put up the speed change since I wanted consistency with the usual rank changes of 1.5/rank ¬_¬.

Incidentally, this is the best resource for ASB Speed Tiers as far as I know.

As for just sticking the boost in the BAP, I am all for it, as long as you just make it +1.5 always, so it goes from +1 to +3.375. If you just say its an additional rank, there is a big chance you will pass through rank 5 and end up with an actually weaker boost ._. .

Again, I'm tossing out random numbers/ideas, to bring discussion forward. I'm not tying myself to any numbers here.

[TIO]

Instead of altering ranks, which will actually be a nerf, it should be a multiplier of *(1+.1*Att)*(1-.1*Def) where Att is the offensive stat and Def is the defensive stat.
Examples:
+1 Mild Salamence Outrage vs. +0 Fidget:
-(12+3+1.5)+1.75=18.25 hp (now)
-(12+3+2.5)=17.5 hp (DF)
-(12+3+1.5)*1.1=18.15 hp (Me)

+0 Adamant Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. +6 Whimsicott:
-(12+3+3+4)*1.5-10.5=22.5 hp (now)
-(12+3+3-4.5)*1.5=20.25 hp (DF)
-(12+3+3+4)*1.5*.4=13.2 hp (me)

+2 Modest Ninetales Fire Blast in sun vs. Tomohawk:
-(12+3+3+1.5)+3.5=23 hp (now)
-(12+3+3+4)=22 hp
-(12+3+3+1.5)*1.2=23.4 hp

-2 Adamant Flygon Earthquake vs. Mild Nidoking:
-(10+3+4.5)*1.5-3.5=22.75 hp (now)
-(10+3+1.5)*1.5=20.25 hp (DF)
-(10+3+4.5)*1.5*.8= 21 hp

+6 Adamant Snorlax Frustration (Lower hp) vs. Gallade
-(10+3+3)+10.5=26.5 hp (now)
-(10+3+9)=22 hp (DF)
-(10+3+3)*1.6=25.6 hp (me)

+2 Volcorona vs. -1 Alakazam
-(9+3+3)*1.5+5.25=27.75 hp (now)
-(9+3+6)*1.5=27 hp (DF)
-(9+3+3)*1.5*1.2*1.1=29.7 hp (me)

DF's proposal actually nerfs offensive stat boosts, while mine doesn't seem to do much until we start talking extremes (See Whimsicott) or layered bonuses (See Volcorona). Also, both proposals need SE to be better than the current one.
Obviously, it needs work, but I feel like that's in the general range that it should be.

[Its_A_Random]

Stat Boosters are still going to be so shitty, even if we try & buff them...

That is, in order to get stat boosters to even become usable with regular frequency (i.e. worth using on any Pokémon), outside of taking advantage of some moves like Protect, you have to break the things, & that would be a terrible idea, especially when the only Pokémon that can use Stat Boosters viably under the current system (e.g. Swoobat, Volbeat w/ Power Lens) can become broken as fuck if we did decide to "break" them.

So, in essence, if we are going to buff Stat Boosters, personally, I would just remove the decay, possibly increase the boost increment to 2 from 1.75, & be done with it. The only thing that confuses most users is the decay system, so just get ridding of it is an acceptable buff alone. Affecting Ranks is a pretty bad idea, since even w/o decay, all it does is reduce power, which kinda defeats the purpose of trying to buff them, since you are reducing their strength. Furthermore, most Pokémon do not tend to last long enough nowadays for something to fully decay, & if you are being haxxed with shit like accuracy drops & stuff, you can always just switch out, or use a phasing move.

This leads to the biggest problems as to why Stat Boosters will always suck on 95% of Pokémon, even with a minor buff like no decay: Not only is the boost so little to the point that you have to hit multiple times to deal more damage in the long run, but you are also completely vulnerable to anything while using them.

With the first point, basically, if you use something like Swords Dance with no items, you are wasting an action & 7 energy, just to deal an extra 3.5 Damage. 3.5. That means if you deal like 14 damage an action to an opponent normally, it will take you 4 actions of flat out dealing damage just to make up that lost action. And that is assuming no decay. The more damage you deal normally, the more actions you have to spend dealing damage to make up the lost action. The reverse is also true, but in reality, the lost action to boost, is generally not worth it, especially in a damage race.

With the second point, when you are using that action to raise your stats, you are a complete sitting duck that leaves you wide open for your opponent to take advantage of, using shit like Taunt, Torment, a recovery move, or even worse, one of: Haze, Clear Smog, Roar, Whirlwind, Circle Throw, & Dragon Tail. These 5 moves in particular are killer to the stat boosting user, since they wipe out your boosts, resulting in all those actions wasted for nothing (At the end of the round in Switch=OK for the last 4), & worse yet, the stat reducing moves you use can be wiped out as well with shit like U-Turn, Volt Switch, Teleport, etc.

All in all, Stat Boosters/Droppers are always going to be bad moves to use, unless you break them, & breaking them would be terrible for ASB Game Balance. So imo, just remove decay, possibly increase the boost increment to 2 from 1.75, & be done with the issue.

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I actually like df's proposal. Here's why.

1) It's elegant and easy to understand. It's simple, and that makes it easier to remember and work with.
2) It's useful. Swords Dance, for example, on my Lickilicky, brings it's attack up to 5, and in only 4 Attacks, the move has been worth it. Keep in mind that an item has approximately the same effect as this move.
3) It leaves less room for abuse. Since after rank 5 the boost only goes up by 1, Swoobat and co are not simply able to Stored Power for a 3hko.
4) Not decaying is both simpler and more true to the game.

[Engineer Pikachu]

To be honest I kind of like the decay system since it encourages strategic play with your stat-changing attacks. All removing decay would do is encourage using the attack in the first couple of actions and that's really it.

I'd also like to note that stage-boosting attacks have become less useful as power creep has come into play (most notably items and our strange urge to make things better and better), since it's additive. For example, using Swords Dance on A2 gives you four actions of +2 Atk and three actions of +1 Atk, which comes out to 19.25 DMG over three rounds; the real payout, though, comes when you use it again later, which, due to the fact that stat changes only drop by one stage per round, means you can theoretically get up to 26.25 DMG purely from the second change, which is pretty good but not too great given Dogfish's point that ASB Pokemon don't tend to last for more than three rounds. Unfortunately I have to agree with IAR above here and say that they're really only going to be useful in pinch situations. Increasing the effect of each to +2 or -2 DMG could work, but then it might get a little out of hand for Simple users or Tail Glow; I haven't run calculations on these yet.

I think Speed stat-changing is a different matter entirely, though. They're pretty convoluted as it stands now and the system makes absolutely no sense whatsoever (1x, 1.75x, 3.5x and /1, /1.75, /3.5 what) and really powerful actually. A system I've been thinking about is essentially the same as the accuracy and evasion system we have, except with numerator and denominators of 2 instead of 3. That is to say:

• The Speed multiplier starts out with a fraction of 2/2.
• Each positive Speed stage increases the numerator by 1.
• Each negative Speed stage increases the denominator by 1.
• The Speed stage is determined by the sum of the positive boosts with the negative boosts (that is to say, +2 and -1 results in +1, not +2-1.)

It makes a lot of sense, and is more reasonable; in addition, it also emulates more closely the in-game Speed system. Below is a chart for the current system v my proposed system, given a Base Speed of 100.

Stage Boost | Current Sys | Proposed Sys | Proposed Sys 2
-3          | 19 (.190)   | 40 (.4)      | 30 (.308)
-2          | 28 (.285)   | 50 (.5)      | 40 (.4)
-1          | 57 (.571)   | 66 (.67)     | 57 (.571)
+0          | 100 (1)     | 100 (1)      | 100 (1)
+1          | 175 (1.75)  | 150 (1.5)    | 175 (1.75)
+2          | 350 (3.5)   | 200 (2)      | 250 (2.5)
+3          | 525 (5.25)  | 250 (2.5)    | 325 (3.25)

As you can see the proposed system is a lot less ridiculous, particularly as the stage boosts are increased. This also makes overcoming the Speed drop from paralysis more difficult than it is now, as it should be in my opinion (a Scary Face right now drops Speed almost as much as paralysis, while it would only go halfway under my proposal).

tl;dr - Removing decay is bad. The current stat system for Atk / Def / SpA / SpD is probably as good as it's going to get. The current Speed system needs a change.

EDIT: I've added a second proposition. Taking Deck's point that ASB stats don't use IVs or EVs and thus make Speed boosting slightly underpowered if we use the in-game structure, I've constructed a second system that is essentially the original one except we fix the messed up arithmetic between a +1 and +2 boost. Like the former two systems, the -Speed speed values are calculated using a reciprocal multiplier of their respective +Speed bonus.

[Gerard]

Even if the pokemon increases from Rank 3 to 5 the damage increases by a total of 3, which is lower than the current system (3.5), while a SE attack does come out on top with 4.5 damage it's still barely enough to justify the nerf on most other cases which would only increase their damage output by 2 or 2.5, with a SE hit doing an extra 3 / 3.75 (4x SE doesn come out on top but again the number of cases does not justify the nerf in a majority of mons)

I'm in favor that Atk, Def, SpA & SpD increase/reduce total damage in 2 and to avoid the decay, this should boost them enough while avoiding breaking the mons that abuse them the most, also it could make some interesting strategies like boosting spread moves or making some powerful walls, considering that we have Focus Energy, Phazing Moves, Psych Up, etc... to control this moves I don't think we have to worry to much that such a boost will make them too good

[Objection]

I admit that the decay system is confusing. However, it is currently the only thing that gives any incentive (lol incentive and stat boosts) to use a +1 move over a +2 move or +1/+1 move. If you remove it, moves like Howl will be completely outclassed by moves like Swords Dance and Bulk Up unless you buff the Howl-like moves in some way.

I propose that, if we remove stat stage decay, that non-damaging +1 and non-damaging -1 moves will prevent the respective stat stage from being lowered or raised respectively for the rest of the round.

The other thing about the attack, defence, special attack and special defence stages as to why they suck is because their boost is calculated after weakness and resistance. For the most part, unless your name is Haxorus, you will want to try to hit your opponent on a weakness. If the opponent has a single weakness to the move, a 1.75 boost in damage is equivalent to a 1.1666... boost to BAP, which is really rather weak. If the opponent has a double weakness, it's equivalent to a measly 0.777... boost to BAP. Having the damage be calculated after weakness and resistance is really only significantly benefitting neutral and NVE moves.

Therefore, I propose that we keep the damage increase/decrease per stage at 1.75, but have it calculated before weakness/resistance. If you are worried about it getting out of hand for Simple users and Tail Glow users, you can simply increase the energy costs of Simple-boosted stat boosters and Tail Glow. I reckon 3 for Tail Glow and 2 or 3 per move's normal boost for Simple should do the trick.

Note that these two things I have proposed are independent of each other.

[zarator]

For the attack/defense/SpA/SpD boosts:

I agree with most people here that at the moment they suck in an unacceptable way, but some of the solutions I saw proposed seem just excessive or convoluted to me. In my opinion, the most simple thing to do is:

1) Bring the boost from 1.75 to 2
2) Put it before weakness/resistance multiplier
3) Remove decay

This way, these moves should become fully viable. And to be honest, much of the concern about their "brokenness" is completely unwarranted. Ask yourselves: how many Pokemon don't learn at least one of: Psych Up, Roar, Dragon Tail, Storm Throw, Haze, Heart Swap, Perish Song... There are a lot of ways to counter stat-up moves that I doubt they will ever risk to become broken. Not to mention that most Pokemon, at worst, can stat up alongside the foes.


As for Speed.... I was the main supporter of the change from 1.5 to 1.75, so let me explain. The idea was to try and reflect more closely the effect of in-game speed boosts, especially on +1 boosts. I gotta agree, though, that the progression is currently flawed. In my opinion, instead of 100, 175, 350, 525... it should've been 100, 175, 250, 325... and so on. This way you would possibly get the best approximation possible. As for negative boosts, I agree with everyone else in that they're too steep. In my opinion, it'd be better if, for the negative boosts, we returned to the old progression. So, what I'm advocating for is:

Speed Boosts
-6 0.25
-5 0.285
-4 0.33
-3 0.4
-2 0.5
-1 0.66
0 1
+1 1.75
+2 2.5
+3 3.25
+4 4
+5 4.75
+6 5.5

This should solve most of our issues, without returning to a system that unjustifiably underpowers Speed boosts, compared to in-game.


P.S.: I understand a lot of people are concerned about stat boosts, but I'd also like some comments on my crit proposal.

[Pwnemon]

Z, i really don't like your system for crits. First, it seems pretty convoluted (though that may just be wording) but more importantly - why would you make the ref calculate two different times just to take the lesser of the two? I have a much easier solution: Critical Hits on multi-hit moves are calculated separately from the other hits of the move. Stat boosts are scaled proportionately to how many hits were not crits.

Using your example:

A Hardy Syclant with no items and Technician uses Icicle Spear against a Hardy Mew behind Reflect and with +1 Defense. Icicle Spear hits 5 times, and crits twice:

[(4+4+4)*.5 [three non-crits, reflect] + (4+4) [two crits] +3 (STAB)] - (1.75*.6) [stage boost times percent affected] = 15.95 dmg

it's simple and accurate.

[zarator]

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

why would you make the ref calculate two different times just to take the lesser of the two?

I guess you didn't actually bother reading through my EDIT as well as Objection's post, right? In practice you don't need to run two different calcs everytime. I showed both systems just for the sake of explaination.

[Orcinus Duo]

Lets fix fake out

I mean I've been theorymonning it in irc for a while but nobody seemed to believe me but you were wrong weren't you WRONG

I suggest 1 fake out use per mon per switch in

[Yarnus of Bethany]

That would make it more powerful in one way and less in another. Why the change?

[TIO]

...Isn't that what Fake Out already is? O.o

[Pwnemon]

No, fake out currently is one per mon per mon per switch-in, i.e. i can fake out an infernape one action and a starmie the next. the change orc is proposing is that the user can only use it once per switch-in, no matter the target (yes it is the same in singles but very different in doubles and triples)

[Orcinus Duo]

This

[Gerard]

Actually you can only get Flinched by a Fake Out once per switch in (as you can only be surprised by the technique once), this should be add to the data though

[Objection]

In Switch=KO, Fake Out fails to flinch the same Pokemon twice after its initial use, even if resetting effects like Circle Throw, Dragon Tail, Roar, U-turn, Teleport, Volt Switch, or Whirlwind used by it or against it, but can still be used in succession. In Switch=OK, Fake Out may flinch each opponent one time, but will not flinch the same target again unless both the user and initial target have switched out between uses.

"Fake Out fails to flinch the same pokemon twice after its initial use" and "Fake Out may flinch each opponent one time, but will not flinch the same target again" mean that each mon can, upon switching in, flinch each opponent once with Fake Out. Notice how the description never states that Fake Out only flinches on the first use on any target or cannot flinch different targets on subsequent uses.

This is another case of "what it is" and "what it should be" being two significantly different things.

EDIT: OK, so do we want Fake Out to only flinch on the first use or do we want Fake Out to only flinch mons that haven't already been faked out? The former would result in a wording like this:

Fake Out: The Pokémon strikes the opponent with immense swiftness using their hands/paws, creating a shockwave of air that pushes the opponent back, causing them to flinch. In Switch=KO, Fake Out only flinches on the Pokémon's first use of the move, even if resetting effects like Circle Throw, Dragon Tail, Roar, U-turn, Teleport, Volt Switch, or Whirlwind used by it or against it. In Switch=OK, Fake Out may only flinch if the Pokémon using the move hasn't used it since it was last sent out. Fake Out can still damage opponents after its first use since the Pokémon was sent out; it simply cannot flinch them. Fake Out is the fastest priority attack, beating out even ExtremeSpeed.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 4 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 3 | CT: Set

If we want the latter, the wording would end up something like this:

Fake Out: The Pokémon strikes the opponent with immense swiftness using their hands/paws, creating a shockwave of air that pushes the opponent back, causing them to flinch. A Pokémon that flinches due to Fake Out acquires the Faked Out status, which prevents the Pokémon from being flinched by Fake Out again until it switches out. In Switch=KO, resetting effects like Circle Throw, Dragon Tail, Roar, U-turn, Teleport, Volt Switch, or Whirlwind do not remove the Faked Out status. Fake Out can still be used against Pokémon with the Faked Out status and these Pokémon will still take damage; they simply will not flinch. Fake Out is the fastest priority attack, beating out even ExtremeSpeed.

Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 4 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 3 | CT: Set

So, pick a version, any version! Except the borked version.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

We want the former.

[Pwnemon]

^

[Gerard]

Double-Edge should be about te same power of Fae Blitz and co. since well, they're all clones of the same move so why is that Double-Edge is the weaker version? With all the talk about consistency I find it funny this slip through.

Originally Posted by Fat DAT

Double-Edge: The Pokemon slams into the opponent as hard as it possibly can with its entire body. The enormous impact of the move will make the user take 1/3rd of the damage they caused to the opponent as recoil.

Attack Power: 10 + User Weight Class/1.5 (round up) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 + Weight Class/2.5 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Contact: Yes | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

Originally Posted by Fat DAT

Flare Blitz: The Pokémon becomes engulfed in flames, and charges at the opponent with great force, taking recoil equal to 1/3 of the damage from the attack. It will thaw a frozen opponent, and has a chance to burn the opponent.

Attack Power: 10 + User Weight Class | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 + Weight Class/2 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 10% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fire | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

Originally Posted by Fat DAT

Wood Hammer: The Pokemon energizes one of its limbs with dangerously unstable natural energy and recklessly charges the opponent. The Pokemon receives 33% of the damage dealt in recoil.

Attack Power: 10 + User Weight Class | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 + Weight Class/2 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

Originally Posted by Fat DAT

Brave Bird: The Pokemon spreads its wings and summons a terrible blue energy to strike the foe with a reckless, brutal charge. The Pokemon suffers 1/3rd of the damage it deals to the opponent in recoil. This move can hit any single Pokemon on the field, regardless of position.

Attack Power: 10 + User Weight Class | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 + Weight Class/2 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Flying | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

Originally Posted by Fat DAT

Volt Tackle: The Pokemon engulfs itself in electricity and slams into the foe. As a result of this attack, the user takes 1/3 of the damage that it dealt to the opponent.

Attack Power: 11 + User Weight Class | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 + Weight Class/2 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Electric | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

It's pretty clear how Double-Edge get's the short end of the stick (in every pokemon with >2 WC) even when the others have the better power for a little extra energy so I wanted to bring it up

[zarator]

I think a large part of the reason is that, while the "elemental" recoil moves have somewhat limited distribution, making the number of heavy Pokemon knowing these moves extremely slim (it's not a case Volt Tackle is even stronger than the likes of Flare Blitz), Double-edge is very widespread. Not only that, but the number of fat Pokemon learning Double-edge is impressive. Snorlax, Metagross, Aggron, etc. would become all the more threatening if Double-edge followed the same pattern of Flare Blitz and Brave Bird.

Besides, if we buffed Double-edge, would we end up buffing Giga Impact as well? Not doing so would lead to kind of awkward results (Double-edge outdamaging Giga Impact on half the existing FE mons), but NOT doing so could prove to be gamebreaking, given Giga Impact's availability.

[UllarWarlord]

Yo. I know I don't have too much respect here, but I think we need to make a change that's already unconsciously happened.

The current description for Drought:

Originally Posted by Fat DAT

Drought:

Type: Innate

When this Pokemon is sent out, it summons blistering sunlight that scorches the field and does not end, expending 10 EN to do so. It can re-summon the effect mid-battle for 9 EN with a command.

Command: (Ability: Drought)

Pokemon with this ability: Vulpix, Ninetales, Groudon

Now, if it's not specified, some people treat weather-activating abilities as Can Be Enabled abilities. I won't mention any names, but I think that maybe that's the right choice. And maybe we should go a step further.

My proposal for Drought (and all other weather-inducing abilities):

Originally Posted by Fat My Proposed Change

Drought:

Type: Can be Enabled

When this Pokemon is sent out, it can summon blistering sunlight that scorches the field and does not end, expending 10 EN to do so. It can re-summon the effect mid-battle for 9 EN with a command, and cancel the weather with a command for no EN.

Command: (Ability: Drought (Activate) or Ability: Drought (Deactivate))

Pokemon with this ability: Vulpix, Ninetales, Groudon

Thoughts, guys? Note that one can only disable Drought when it is sunny, and the same goes for the other abilities. I think this makes more sense, personally, but I'd like to hear some feedback.

[TIO]

Eh, I feel like it's better the way it is currently. No need to change, though I won't mind if it is changed.

[Its_A_Random]

As per this thread, The new system for handling proposals is now in effect! This system is now viewable from the OP of this thread, so have at ye!

Anyhow, the following need votes & shit:

Arena Trap

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Current

Arena Trap:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has great knowledge of the field and can always remain close to an earthbound foe no matter where it runs, flying opponents and levitating Pokemon are unaffected.

Pokemon with this ability: Diglett, Dugtrio, Trapinch.

Proposed

Arena Trap:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has great knowledge of the field and can always remain close to an earthbound foe no matter where it runs. All Pokemon that are not of the Flying-Type, or possess the Levitate Ability, may not be switched out of battle while this Pokemon is on the field. This Pokemon may still switch out of battle as normal, unless there is another Pokemon on the field with Arena Trap.

Pokemon with this ability: Diglett, Dugtrio, Trapinch.

Some links.

Baton Pass

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Current

Baton Pass: The Pokemon focuses all of its energies into a white aura that maintains its current state. This energy holds all of the information on the Pokemon's stat increases and decreases as well as whether it is in a state of confusion or other temporary ailments. If this Pokemon touches a teammate it can pass those bonuses and mental state onto them instantly.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 10 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Proposed

Baton Pass: The Pokemon focuses all of its energies into a white aura that maintains its current state. This energy holds all of the information on the Pokemon's stat increases and decreases as well as whether it is in a state of confusion or other temporary ailments. This move has two distinctive uses:

Baton Pass [Switch] (Switch=OK Only): The user is sent back to its trainer's Poke Ball at the end of the round. The Pokemon that is switched in to replace the user is chosen by the player from their remaining Pokemon, however the trainer that commanded Baton Pass [Switch] must attack first the next round. The replacement gains the same temporary status changes (Such as stat boosts/drops, confusion, etc.) that the user had upon entry.

Baton Pass [Pass] (Doubles+ Only): The user can pass on all its temporary status changes (Such as stat boosts/drops, confusion, etc.) to an active teammate. The teammate will gain all temporary status changes that the user had, and all temporary status changes the user had are removed.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 10 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

Some links.

Counter-farming!

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Originally Posted by Fat Texas Cloverleaf

Okay so there was this big long pointless argument about counterfarming on irc.

Counterfarming in this case is matches done solely for the purpose of achieving counters, that is to say not battling in the spirit of ASB

A recent example of this is the series of Burn the Bellsprout matches.


I proposed a generally accepted solution among irc members to resolve this solution.

Project Mods have the power to veto blatant counter farming matches. Should a PC approver think a match is counter farming, they may check with a project mod and then render a veto verdict.


Honestly this is a dumb problem, and counterfarming shouldn't happen often. When it does, it is usually blatant and common sense can easily be used to determine whether something is counterfarming or not.


I expect little opposition on this matter, its just common sense.

Auto-Learn Universal Moves!

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Originally Posted by Fat Deck Knight

I was more struck by the argument that it takes mons far too many matches to be good. I was talking in IRC and came up with a solution to that, so that new players can jump in with at least some semblance of a tool box. When I think of "good" or "battle-ready" Pokemon, I think of Pokemon that have the proper defensive skillset to evade or mitigate incoming attacks that have at least a few options against if put to Sleep or Disabled.

Basically the proposal is to add a portion of the "always available" BW TMs and Tutors to the starting moveset of each Pokemon (provided they learn the attacks). This list would consist of the following:

Near-Universal BW TMs:
Double Team
Frustration
Protect
Return
Round
Substitute

Near-Universal BW Tutors:
Sleep Talk
Snore

For reference the following moves have been excluded:

Facade: Extremely easy to abuse for several Pokemon.
Hidden Power: The idea behind this proposal is to give a basic skeleton of fallback attacks. Hidden Power is an integral coverage move and would bias towards special attackers a great deal.
Rest: Combined with Sleep Talk on every Pokemon would prolong a great deal of matches. You can certainly use Rest as a starting selected TM for the combo.
Swagger: While a minor status, it is also sufficiently powerful and disruptive.
Toxic: Major status, very powerful.

Attached to this I might also change the Rarity Cost of anything that doesn't get these TMs/Tutors from two (2) to one (1) to compensate, and also increase the power of Sleep because pretty much every Pokemon will be able to attack during it to some extent, but those are not yet resolved, I want feedback on this.

Change Training Items!

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Originally Posted by Fat Dogfish44

Going to avoid the above chaos until I familiarise myself with it. Although this is on a similar note...
Totally not stolen from EO

The idea is that Training Items do not give an original base boost to any rewards given out. Instead, whenever a Pokémon equipped with such a training item gains a KOC, it gains an additional counter, coinciding with whatever item is held. This not only makes sense (The item does't automatically train you for simply having it exist, you still have to work for it), but it limits the potential of flash matches such as Burn The Bellspout etc., since you do need to KO to gain counters from the items, which also encourages competitiveness.

Critical Hits!

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Originally Posted by Fat zarator

At the moment, the Critical Hit description about multi-hit moves is a bit ambigous:


Critical Hits:

A critical hit adds three (3) BAP to any attack before applying weakness and resistance. Critical hits ignore Reflect and Light Screen, ignore the Base Attack Power drop from the Burn status, and only apply stat boosts if positive boosts exceed negative boosts. Super Luck increases the Critical Hit Stage of a Pokemon by 1, and Sniper increases the damage dealt by critical hits to five (5) instead of three (3) for a one-hit move, three (3) instead of two (2) for a two-hit move, and two (2) instead of one (1) for a multi-hit move.




The main culprit, as many of you know, is: if one of the hits of a multi-hit moves crit, does the entire damage goes past screens/burn/stat changes? At the moment, if we go for the most strict interpretation of the text, it does, and it makes multi-hit moves incredibly disruptive. While this may add a layer to strategies and such, I find the disruptive potential a bit excessive. Even in-game, the best option to use against a foe behind Reflect and with multiple Defense boost could be your multi-hit move if you have a good one, but the effect is nowhere as gamebreaking as in ASB, where the difference in dmg may be incredibly steep.

Now, the discussion wouldn't be complete if I didn't propose a solution to the issue, so there it is. My proposal is that, if a multi-hit move crits, one or more times, against a foe under the aforementioned conditions (burn, screens, stat changes), the move gets a damage boost called Pierce. Each crit grants a Pierce bonus damage equal to the Crit bonus + 1 (So, it would be 3 for a move like Double Kick, and 2 for a move like Pin Missile). If the Pierce damage would raise the dmg of the move at or above the level it would reach if it ignored screens/burn/stat changes, you just calculate it in the old way. Since it may seem rather strange of a mechanic, and since my wording is obviously horrible, let me give you an example:

Ex1: A Hardy Syclant with no items and Technician uses Icicle Spear against a Hardy Mew behind Reflect and with +1 Defense. Icicle Spear hits 5 times, and crits twice. Let's try to calculate the dmg with my newly proposed system:

4*5*0.67 [Base Power] + 3 [STAB] + 2 [Crit] + 4 [Pierce] - 1.75 [Stage Dif] = 20.65 damage

And now with the old system

4*5 [Base Power] + 3 [STAB] + 2 [Crit] = 25 damage

Since the "Pierce version" does less damage, you would apply it over the "old version"

Ex2: A Lonely Syclant with no items and Technician uses Icicle Spear against a Lonely Mew with +2 Defense. Icicle Spear hits 5 times, and crits 3 times. Let's try to calculate the dmg with my newly proposed system:

4*5 [Base Power] + 3 [STAB] + 3 [Stat Dif] + 3 [Crit] + 6 [Pierce] - 3.5 [Stage Dif] = 31.5 damage

And now with the old system:

4*5 [Base Power] + 3 [STAB] + 3 [Stat Dif] + 3 [Crit] = 29 damage

Since the "old version" does less damage, you would apply it over the "Pierce version"

Ex3: A Hardy Hitmonlee with no items and with Burn status uses Double Kick against a Hardy Snorlax behind Reflect. Double Kick crits 1 out of 2 times. Let's try to calculate the dmg with my newly proposed system:

(3*2*0.67 [Base Power] + 3 [STAB] + 3 [Stat Dif] - 3 [Burn] + 2 [Crit] + 3 [Pierce]) * 1.5 = 18.03 damage

And now with the old system:

(3*2 [Base Power] + 3 [STAB] + 3 [Stat Dif] + 2 [Crit]) * 1.5 = 21 damage

Since the "Pierce version" does less damage, you would apply it over the "old version".




While apparently convoluted, my proposal has the advantage of giving a partial boost to crits of multi-hit moves under burn/screen/stat change conditions, without making it gamebreaking - in the same vein with how it works in practice in-game. Thanks for your attention.

P.S.: If you can reword it in a nicer way, props for it.

EDIT: I'd like to add that, unlike what it seems, most times you wouldn't have to do two calculations every time. The above ones are just for the sake of the example. If a multi-hit move crits only once (which is the most common scenario), or even twice for a 4-5-hit move, you will always apply the "Pierce method", no need to doublecheck.

...And the cluster-fuck of Stat Boosting Proposals, Fake Out Proposals, & the Double-Edge & Weather proposals. I cbf finding the votes though... :S

EDIT: As far as the proposals not introduced by me that are mentioned in this post...

• I support giving Project Mods & whatnot the power to "stop counter-farming", & think it can go to a vote immediately, but only veto in the blatantly obvious cases.
• I support reducing the costs of some near-universal moves to 0 MC, but I think it needs some discussion, mainly whether all these moves are okay, whether MC should be refunded or not, etc.
• I support the changes to the Training Items, mainly due to the fact that you must win to get their effects ingame, so yeah. I think it can go to a vote immediately, given there would not be much to discuss.
• The Critical Hit proposal needs some more clarification imo. I definitely think that we should fix crits for multi-hit moves, but reckon it needs a bit more discussion—Many users tend to be confused as to how this works, & there is still a common belief that you would have to make 2 separate calculations. Something like "IF (#Crits × (Crit Bonus +1) < Burn + Screens + Stat Boosts/Drops), THEN Pierce = #Crits × (Crit Bonus +1). ELSE, Pierce = Burn + Screens + Stat Boosts/Drops" might work? idk.