Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

[Cobraroll]

Well, one of the sources for the "power creep" in OU is that there simply are more Pokémon now than before. The group of the 5% strongest non-legendary Pokémon in the game is getting bigger and bigger, with move- and ability-pools expanding even beyond that. Brought back a couple of generations, I think a current RU team could wreak havoc in the upper tiers of an earlier metagame.

As a rule of thumb, the strongest non-broken Pokémon in the game make it to OU, and as the general power level of all Pokémon increases, so does OU itself. The metagame becomes more fast-paced and hard-hitting than before, while the middle or lower tiers adopt the playstyle and power level of the previous generation's OU. The bar for competitive playing is raised a little bit for every generation.

Last, I think that the average power levels of all Pokémon in relation to another might not change much from generation to generation, but the few % at the ends of the bell curve embraces an increasing number of 'mons. Just as strong Pokémon, moves and abilities are added in every game, so are crappy Pokémon, moves and abilities. In total, it evens out, but as we tend to concentrate on the strongest few percent, to us it appears to be a radical power creep going on. It's easy to forget that we get a Vanilluxe for every Hydreigon and a Zen Mode for every Regenerator. Gen. V Beedrill would completely smash the Gen. I metagame, but in Gen. V, it's still residing on the bottom of the barrel. I think hardly anybody bashes a relative power creep in NU.

[keleyeemoh]

Gen I has 12 OU Pokémon, II has 9, III has 7, IV has 11, and V has 13. In summation, fuck your power creep. We get viable Pokémon every generation, old or new. Having two Uber tiers or making UU the premiere tier are stupid. The metagame will shift, as metagames do. Changing tiers in this way is not a good solution to holding on to your precious Persian.

[FrostFire]

Originally Posted by Fat keleyeemoh

Gen I has 12 OU Pokémon, II has 9, III has 7, IV has 11, and V has 13. In summation, fuck your power creep. We get viable Pokémon every generation, old or new. Having two Uber tiers or making UU the premiere tier are stupid. The metagame will shift, as metagames do. Changing tiers in this way is not a good solution to holding on to your precious Persian.

Ok, this isn't quite right. The term 'Power Creep' does not (despite common misconception) refer to newer pokemon being more powerful than older pokemon, thus making them redundant. Rather, it refers to pokemon in general becoming more powerful, BOTH through the introduction of new, powerful pokes, and buffing old pokes to create a more and more offensively powerful metagame. Take Breloom; it was strong in Gen 4, but then it became even more offensively powerful in Gen 5 with Technician. Water types were good in Gen 4, but Drizzle in Gen 5 doubles the power of their STAB with infinite rain. Moves like Secret Sword and Psyshock bypass a pokemon's specially offensive limitations, by allowing them to get past special walls.

The number of boosts you could list for offensive pokemon just goes on and on. MoxieMence. Shell Smash. Quiver Dance. Chlorophyll Venusaur. Sheer Force. The number of boosts to offense are numerous - but compare that to the boosts to defence. In Gen 5, such boosts are almost nonexistent; there's Poison Heal Gliscor, for one. Ferrothorn is amazing too. But overall, the buffs to defence are infinitely outweighed by the boosts to offense, creating a trend line that is currently sharply erring towards a more and more offensive metagame.

Hence, 'Power Creep'.

To bring this post back on topic, this is definitely a trend that (imo) needs to be reversed (or at least held back to some extent) if we are to get a really enjoyable and skill based Gen 6 metagame. I feel like a lot of the problems with gen 5 could be fixed if only we were able to more competently counter some of the meta's top offensive threats.

[Eggbert]

FrostFire is right. The offensive options in Gen 5 completely out shadow any defensive ones. I expect Gen 6 might be the same since game freak will likely add more variants of psyshock/secret sword/psystrike, possibly for physical attackers. Other possibilities are draco meteors for fighting types, ghost types, even better special rock moves. It's easier for them to make cool powerful mons.

Or just give next generation two Uber tiers, with the first being the current Ubers, the banlist, and the second for things which are extremely powerful but not actually banned (what OU is going to be if we aren't careful), like the current OU.
The new OU, probably closer to the current UU, would have permanent weather banned.

Having something like this would be nice, but there are some problems. Let's say we had OU1 and OU2. In gen 6, terrakion got dragon dance or something similar and a fighting version of psystrike that hits special defense, making any efforts of walling it via hippo or slowbro useless. With a quick vote from the top 100 on the ladder, it gets moves to OU2, which has everything in OU + the ones moved up. It can also include the quasi-ubers that we were unsure about in the beginning of BW like Shaymin-s and darkrai, as well as stuff from BW2 like excadrill, blaziken, torn-T, gene, ect. This way we can test changes to OU very quickly and fluidly. The problem is then, what becomes the "real" OU that everyone wants to play. I think it would naturally move to the better metagame.

A nice way defense could be viable again is another major game mechanic, like the physical special split. In this change, pokemon would deal less damage if they fell below certain levels of health. IE there are 4 zones. 1-25,26-50,51-75,76-100% health. At the best health, a pokemon does the most damage, but this falls off only slightly at the lower zones. This makes defensive pokemon much more viable since they have recovery and aren't attacking, while it becomes easier to wall things that take spikes damage.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat keleyeemoh

Gen I has 12 OU Pokémon, II has 9, III has 7, IV has 11, and V has 13. In summation, fuck your power creep. We get viable Pokémon every generation, old or new. Having two Uber tiers or making UU the premiere tier are stupid. The metagame will shift, as metagames do. Changing tiers in this way is not a good solution to holding on to your precious Persian.

In the gen 4 meta, there was 48 OU mons. Now there's 52, despite adding 13 new OU mons. So 9 mons that were OU in gen 4 no longer qualify, being completely outclassed by gen 5 mons. That's the power creep, the tiny percent of seriously powerful mons keeps encompassing more and more individuals. We've got a mon with base-700 stats in OU, and it's honestly not that good. What other generation would that even be possible?

This doesn't even mention stuff like Choice Band and LO. What items has defense gotten that are even close to that level?

[MeteorMiss]

Originally Posted by Fat Hugin

This doesn't even mention stuff like Choice Band and LO. What items has defense gotten that are even close to that level?

I'd say Eviolite and Leftovers far surpass that, but eviolite only buffs formerly useless things that need it. Like chansey which, though formerly useless, now has a niche. The difference is that Eviolite takes subpar defensive pokemon and makes them average, whereas Life Orb takes average offensive pokemon and makes them great. That's why offense prevails despite the introduction of things like eviolite.

[Hugin]

Eviolite is definitely better, but it only helps things that are would be useless otherwise. I love that it was introduced(bulky Scyther in RU yesplz), but it doesn't help OU at all(even Chansey dropped).

[YungHungCrock]

What I think would be a great addition next gen is a variation on Rapid Spin. Something that would have the same effect (clearing the field), but not normal-type. Maybe water or fire, to get it a different set of immunities (Jynx/Arcanine for OU?), and/or, make it a support move, and therefore vulnerable to Taunt?

This reduces our obsession with Ghost-types and the few rapid spinners we do have (sorry Starmie), and I think, if properly distributed, can lead to more interesting hazard play. Assuming an increase in hazard inducers (I think this is a safe bet, seeing as GF was fine making Stealth rock a tutored move this gen), as well as this increase (both in # and diversity) in “Spinners,” we could end of seeing more back and forth hazard battles, with them being set up and removed multiple times throughout the match .

----

On another note, an interesting type people often toss out is Poison/Steel. I think this is cool from a metagame perspective, maybe as a bulky attacker, keeping that Dragon resistance, neutrality to Fighting, but getting destroyed by Ground. Poison Heal seems reasonable, which would give the stall people some love. But it’s other ability…

Mega/Super/[other similar adjectives] Cannon

Similar to Iron Fist, this would boost a certain “type” of attack, namely cannon/shooting based ones. This would be the signature ability of this guy, whom I envision having a gigantic cannon on its back (I guess kinda similar to Genesect, but less robot-y, maybe more amorphous, being Poison and all), to take advantage of STAB Sludge Bomb and Flash Cannon (Gunk Shot too, on the physical side). These two attacks get great neutral coverage (resisted only by Steel), and a 20%ish boost to their damage could make them more competitively viable.

[UltiMario]

Originally Posted by Fat Eggbert

A nice way defense could be viable again is another major game mechanic, like the physical special split. In this change, pokemon would deal less damage if they fell below certain levels of health. IE there are 4 zones. 1-25,26-50,51-75,76-100% health. At the best health, a pokemon does the most damage, but this falls off only slightly at the lower zones. This makes defensive pokemon much more viable since they have recovery and aren't attacking, while it becomes easier to wall things that take spikes damage.

So basically an anti-comeback mechanic that especially punishes users of Life Orb (aka THE OFFENSIVE ITEM) and recoil moves, and on top of that makes it completely impossible for Tanks to exist (EX Reuniclus being able to tank a +2 Giga Drain from Venusaur and Psychic KO it back), and lets walls as well as stuff like Latias (fast, bulky, and strong) to be the hardest hitting mons in the metagame because they can keep their HP high.

How about no.

[Pikachuu]

My idea for a ground type Eevee:
HP:110/424
Atk:130/394
Def:65/251
SpA:60/240
SpD:65/251
Spe:95/317

Ability: Sand Rush

Of course it probably wouldn't get Rapid Spin but do you guys think it would be broken?

[White symphoni]

Originally Posted by Fat Pikachuu

My idea for a ground type Eevee:
HP:110/424
Atk:130/394
Def:65/251
SpA:60/240
SpD:65/251
Spe:95/317

Ability: Sand Rush

Of course it probably wouldn't get Rapid Spin but do you guys think it would be broken?

Depends on it's moves and the metagame.But usually Eveelutions have poor offensive movepool and I doubt this would even get swords dance.So I don't think so.

[Rayquaza_]

Speaking of Rapid Spin alternatives, how about a move like this:

Name: Earthshaker
Type: Ground
PP: 10(16)
Power: 50
Effect: moves a random entry hazard (one layer of Spikes, one layer of Toxic Spikes or Stealth Rock) to the opponent's side.

Ideally this move should get a wide distribution (same as Earthquake), including pokemon with Mold Breaker so that Gengar and Giratina-O don't become absolute must have as spinblockers.
Since Ground is the most common immunity in the game, it would be easy to block this move without overcentralize the metagame.
This way this move and Rapid Spin wouldn't outclass each other.

50 BP because while I don't like the pathetically low base power of Rapid Spin, I don't think this move should double as a sweeping tool given its good secondary effect.

[skeezyj]

I like _Rayquaza's general idea for the move--I think that a Rapid Spin clone is long overdue--but I don't really like moving one random entry hazard to the other side. After all, moves in general are based on real physics, so maybe if it just cleared an entry hazard layer or two it would make more sense.

[Eggbert]

So basically an anti-comeback mechanic that especially punishes users of Life Orb (aka THE OFFENSIVE ITEM) and recoil moves, and on top of that makes it completely impossible for Tanks to exist (EX Reuniclus being able to tank a +2 Giga Drain from Venusaur and Psychic KO it back), and lets walls as well as stuff like Latias (fast, bulky, and strong) to be the hardest hitting mons in the metagame because they can keep their HP high.

Think about it a bit more. It's not meant to stop comebacks, it's meant to make the power creep pokemon easier to wall, especially after hazards. After SR and a layer of spikes, as well as the damage it took while setting up and LO, the venusaur would hit maybe 10% weaker. Venusaur is a bad example, because its counters usually wall it completely. I don't know why you would rely on reuniclus to check venusaur, which could sleep powder you and 2HKO. (How about getting a better counter for that) If it was say, terrakion against heatran. Terrakion switches in, takes a bit of hazard damage and gets poisoned by heatran's toxic. After all of that damage, hippowdon only takes 50% from a CB close combat rather than 55% letting it slack off. defense is viable again! Latias? one of the weakest pokemon in OU if we are gauging by power. It is dangerous because it can setup and be hard to stop for some teams, but otherwise even its dragon pulse can't KO dragonite after SR.

This wouldn't be like a burn cut in damage, just a few percentage points.

[Sacaen]

Originally Posted by Fat Eggbert

Think about it a bit more. It's not meant to stop comebacks, it's meant to make the power creep pokemon easier to wall, especially after hazards. After SR and a layer of spikes, as well as the damage it took while setting up and LO, the venusaur would hit maybe 10% weaker. Venusaur is a bad example, because its counters usually wall it completely. I don't know why you would rely on reuniclus to check venusaur, which could sleep powder you and 2HKO. (How about getting a better counter for that) If it was say, terrakion against heatran. Terrakion switches in, takes a bit of hazard damage and gets poisoned by heatran's toxic. After all of that damage, hippowdon only takes 50% from a CB close combat rather than 55% letting it slack off. defense is viable again! Latias? one of the weakest pokemon in OU if we are gauging by power. It is dangerous because it can setup and be hard to stop for some teams, but otherwise even its dragon pulse can't KO dragonite after SR.

This wouldn't be like a burn cut in damage, just a few percentage points.

While I don't really like the idea of having a pokemon doing more or less damage depending on it's health (makes sense logicially yes, but when has pokemon ever been a place for logic), if such a feature were to be implemented I would say reducing the RNG factor of damage rolls would be the only balanced way to do something like that.

Say, if a pidgy has 100% health instead of doing 47%-53% normally to a rattata with tackle, it would do 50-53% damage instead (cutting out that lower half of the RNG), however as a pokemon drags on in battle, it's attacks may become more shaky and would eventually fall back to doing 47-53% damage as normal. It could also work as a defiance type mechanic, where the boost comes when the pokemon is at low hp rather than high hp.

Regardless I think the only way to make a change like that which wouldn't piss more than half the community off, would be to make it so insignificant that it would end up being a waste of GF's development time and make the pokemon damage formula more complicated than it needs to be.

[Lord of Bays]

I feel like this concept would work better before shit like Eviolite Chansey existed. Now we've got walls that are nearly unbreakable beyond the power of the fifth generation. You're stripping that power and those walls that CAN be broken are now too tough because you just took 25% from Spikes.

Actually, this would be bad in a completely different way. The metagame would revolve around hazard stacking and bulky Pokémon, and make bulky set-up attackers almost literally impossible to break: Tyranitar Curses up to +3; Choice Band Terrakion ordinarily has no trouble as Close Combat still OHKOs; unfortunately, the shuffling and hazards earlier in the match have reduced Terrakion to only, say, 75% of his usual power; Tyranitar lives Close Combat, KOs, and proceeds to sweep your team because nothing else you have is powerful enough to break through, or they're too weak to hit hard enough to finish him off. This is no better than the weather wars and stall's non-existence of today.

[Eggbert]

Say, if a pidgy has 100% health instead of doing 47%-53% normally to a rattata with tackle, it would do 50-53% damage instead (cutting out that lower half of the RNG), however as a pokemon drags on in battle, it's attacks may become more shaky and would eventually fall back to doing 47-53% damage as normal. It could also work as a defiance type mechanic, where the boost comes when the pokemon is at low hp rather than high hp.

That's a good take on it. Damage rolls can be a bit haxy as well.

Actually, this would be bad in a completely different way. The metagame would revolve around hazard stacking and bulky Pokémon, and make bulky set-up attackers almost literally impossible to break: Tyranitar Curses up to +3; Choice Band Terrakion ordinarily has no trouble as Close Combat still OHKOs; unfortunately, the shuffling and hazards earlier in the match have reduced Terrakion to only, say, 75% of his usual power; Tyranitar lives Close Combat, KOs, and proceeds to sweep your team because nothing else you have is powerful enough to break through, or they're too weak to hit hard enough to finish him off. This is no better than the weather wars and stall's non-existence of today.

Well 3 curses is a bit far fetched, but this would make teams a little more prone to using phazing to stop sweeps. Phazing isn't so common anymore but would thrive in a slower metagame. Instead of scarf revenge killers, there would be more roar skarmory and hippowdon. You wouln't beat chansey by force, you would use bulky pokemon with setup moves and taunt to get past it. The damage change wouldn't reduce damage this much though.

[Lord of Bays]

Originally Posted by Fat Eggbert

You wouln't beat chansey by force, you would use bulky pokemon with setup moves and taunt to get past it. The damage change wouldn't reduce damage this much though.

Okay, that puts me at ease more. I still feel like this would make Stall king to the same extent weather is, and no one thing should be that powerful. Even bulky set-up sweepers with Taunt isn't perfect, as you're then limiting them to only stuff that carries near-perfect or perfect coverage in two moves and Circle Throw and Dragon Tail still exist. So now you need Sub, Taunt, and a set-up move, while being a Pokémon with excellent bulk so they don't lose too much power too quickly.

[Eggbert]

Not necessarily, there are many options because of all the new sweepers we got in BW. Reuniclus with magic guard would be really powerful due to recover and magic guard. Regenerator and the new pokemon that get it would be as well. I don't expect gamefreak to care too much about balance, so we will probably be getting tons of more powerful sweepers in XY. This would do just a bit to even the playing field.

[BettaOffDead]

It would be nice if we had a fire type entry hazard called "Stealth Flame" that works very smilar to stealth rock. Steel types could use a slight nerf.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat BettaOffDead

It would be nice if we had a fire type entry hazard called "Stealth Flame" that works very smilar to stealth rock. Steel types could use a slight nerf.

Lol, Stealth Flame would be very broken. Scizor and Ferrothorn would take 4x damage from it, probably making both unviable. Speaking of which, Stealth Flame would be a boon to Water-types and rain teams in general, this may seem like an irony, but this would allow them to get past three things that rain struggle with: Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Amoongus. Dragon-types would also appreciate Stealth Rock to break through Steel-types more easily. Lastly, it would nerf Ice-types even more than they are already nerfed: For example, with Stealth Flame, Stealth Rock, and three layers of Spikes, a full-health Abomasnow would be OHKOed just by switching-in. A Fire-type Stealth Rock would not help as Steel-types do not need a nerf and it would just make them unviable (same with Grass-types) or harder to play, thus contributing to Rain teams and Dragon-type dominance.

[blitzlefan]

Regarding Stealth Flame, Bug types would go also down the toilet. Being weak to basically all forms of entry hazards in addition to Stealth Flame while being only an okay typing in itself at best. Ouch. Also, though more stall equals more diversity, dear god I hate stall. Bulky offense is fine, but I like the pace of the metagame in general, a nice fast pace tempo that also pays off for smart switching to defensive mons at the right time. But just adding defensive behemoths like Ferrothorn seems awful. And dear god Gamefreak, please no more bulky haxy shit like Jirachi. I hate that thing. NERF SERENE GRACE!!!

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat BettaOffDead

It would be nice if we had a fire type entry hazard called "Stealth Flame" that works very smilar to stealth rock. Steel types could use a slight nerf.

This idea is similar to some of the other posters wanting "Ice Stealth Rocks" as well. I feel like Stealth Rocks itself makes prominent threats such as Volcarona and Sun teams in general from being as good as they could be, and also greatly hinders the already lackluster Hail teams as well. Fire type Stealth Rocks would promote hyper offense even more because it would take away a whopping 25% to Steel types, and an even larger 50% from Forretress and Ferrothorn, both which are greatly needed in OU for their ability to wall certain parts of the meta game which would otherwise run through every team without them. With Forretress having 50% chipped away upon entry and no means of recovery, his already lackluster Rapid Spin support would be hindered even more! Even Scarf Terrakion wouldn't have to worry about switching out, because all Forretress want's to do is spin, but he can't do that effectively if he has to take a CC over and over again right after a 50% health drop. Ferrothorn also has no RELIABLE means of recovery, and since his main use is for sponging attacks, he wont be staying alive that long at all. Scizor would drop tremendously in usage. Since Scizor depends on it's bulk most of the time in order to get a free hit on something, Fire Stealth Rocks would completely hinder his ability to U-Turn effectively, and Rapid spin support would HAVE to be needed in order to use him, similar to Volcarona. But the irony in that is that one key Rapid Spinner would be completely nullified, making it's ability to spin completely useless.

You see what I mean? Why make offense more of a presence when it's already more present then it ever has been before?

[BettaOffDead]

Okay maybe it would be broken. Yeah. rain definitely does not need a buff.

Another think we could do is make tailwind into a move that isn't completely useless. Make it last 5-8 turns instead of three.

Or if 8 is too much make it strictly 5 or 6. They made a potentially good move useless by not making it last very long.

[Yarnus of Bethany]

Stealth Grass is probably a better idea. It nerfs water types and rock-types like tyranitar and Terrekion, and boosts mainly defensive mons - Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Bug-Types, and Fire-types, which really need help. Though it boosts steels, that's fine because most of them are defensive.