np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I'm sorry, but "It can't handle everything" is not a good argument. Excadrill couldn't handle everything. Blaziken couldn't handle everything. Look where they are now. The number of checks and counters a Pokemon has has absolutely nothing to do with how broken/not broken it is. Hydreigon has no counters, and it's not broken. Excadrill had quite a few counters, and it was eventually deemed broken by a supermajority of suspect test voters in Round 5.

What? Deoxys-D is a defensive poke. The EVERYTHING he is suposed to handle which i refered to are the spinners/magic bouncers. Deoxys-D doesnt care about other stuff that much. He is not a sweeper, he doesnt need to ohko the entire tier.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

K. What do you do with tentacruel? and starmie? You cant handle EVERYTHING. Thats what im getting to. This is not a good argument. If Deoxys-D could handle everything then i would be pro-ban. But it cant so its just a good mon. Nothing more, nothing less. Also for the posts talkng about the awesomeness of rocks+1 layer of spikes. Please stop saying it is easy to lay hazards with Deoxys-D. ITS NOT. Its frustrating reading posts like ''deoxys-d can guarantee hazards up''. Just stop saying it. I've been used extensively and its retardly hard get anything more than rocks up. CBTar is quite common, espeon is annoying as fuck, theres prankster sableye and tornadus-i, a lot of stuff can surprise you (specstoed instead of bulkytoed), if your gengar goes down (easy to accomplish) and the oponent spins your hazards youre completely screwed. This happened a lot to me so just stop saying its easy cause its not.

what are you talking about, i already cited what you do with tentacruel and starmie, psycho boost pops the former and tbolt nails the latter. if you're trying to make the point that deo-d can't handle every single spinner with one universal set, yes, that's true, but it can potentially handle every single spinner with different sets, and teams will tailor that set in order to be able to beat the spinner their team has the most trouble with. go read over the torn-t suspect thread if you're not convinced - it couldn't beat everything with only one set, but between life orb and specs it had maybe one solid counter, and look where torn-t is now. as for deo-d supposedly being hard to set up with, i have one answer to that: false. 90% of the time it's just send out deo-d, hit taunt if necessary, hit sr, hit spikes. all the examples you cite, once again, can be beaten by a certain deo-d set, and most of them are super uncommon anyways. espeon, sableye, taunt torn-i? i think combined those might add up to 8% usage. let's be realistic.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

what are you talking about, i already cited what you do with tentacruel and starmie, psycho boost pops the former and tbolt nails the latter. if you're trying to make the point that deo-d can't handle every single spinner with one universal set, yes, that's true, but it can potentially handle every single spinner with different sets, and teams will tailor that set in order to be able to beat the spinner their team has the most trouble with. go read over the torn-t suspect thread if you're not convinced - it couldn't beat everything with only one set, but between life orb and specs it had maybe one solid counter, and look where torn-t is now. as for deo-d supposedly being hard to set up with, i have one answer to that: false. 90% of the time it's just send out deo-d, hit taunt if necessary, hit sr, hit spikes. all the examples you cite, once again, can be beaten by a certain deo-d set, and most of them are super uncommon anyways. espeon, sableye, taunt torn-i? i think combined those might add up to 8% usage. let's be realistic.

Its about cirscuntances. Sometimes its easy but most of the time is hard. There are certain spinners it can beat depending on the move. Come on man this is no Tornadus-T. You cant brainless spam a move and switch with no consequences. Deoxys-D can setup hazards when given the chance, it can be shutdown/killed if the oponent outsmart you. This is pokemon. I fail to see what kinda of advantage deoxys-d adds. Its good at setuping rocks and has a great movepool and bulk. Nothing out of this world. If this thing is indeed banned i want to at least see a strong argument.

[HabibsHotDogs]

Disclaimer: I couldn't care less if Deo-D goes to ubers based on the metagame atm, but based on principle I find it rather unfair that we are suspecting Deo-D

Originally Posted by Fat GatoDelFuego

A rather concise well written argument/rebuttal

Ok now you made some valid points but let us consider something here.

1. About the u turn + magic bounce. The u turn is there to scout double switches exclisively as Deo-D is not unlikely to be partnered with pokemon that will enjoy a free turn in front of espeon or xatu (or even trap them). Many teams that run m bounce commonly carry u turn or volt switch anyway. If we are being as specific as Skill Swap Deoxys D JUST to deal with 2 pokemon in OU, we can easily add skill swap to Espeons movepool (she won't miss anything with shitty options) in order to deal back with Deo-D and do its job in OU of blocking hazards...

2. Those methods that you didn't ignore are exclusively there to prevent Deo-D getting more than 1 layer of hazards up! There are MULTIPLE ways to handle Deo-D if you're happy to accept two hazards (i'll get to that in a moment).

3. So you ignored the best method of dealing with Deo-D?? A team that doesn't really mind SR+Spikes (noone likes SR + 3 layers of spikes but that is akin to letting a Dragonite get +2 /+2) is easily less affected. For example I enjoy using the defensive pair of Ferrothorn + Landorus-T (252/252+ sassy and 196/116+/196 Lax) and well.. even with SR + 1 spikes, they couldn't care less about the majority of Deo-D's partners and the few that might break through them (such as Gengar and Hydreigon) can be handled by partners.

Another point I would like to really stress is that my "counters" suggestions were purely there in order to prevent more than SR (and many pokemon have SR)! Some are to prevent all hazards together or just accept them. If you are willing to accept SR + 1 Spikes (as mentioned above with my defensive pair that don't mind them) then your options of dealing with Deo-D quite literally increase exponentially - excuse the exaggeration.

[NixHex]

Everyone please read this and swallow it. It will do you well and will prevent you from infractions.

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Lastly claiming something has low usage so we shouldn't ban it is one of the most useless arguments ever. We have a precedent, as we banned Wobbuffet in Gen 4 despite it having "low usage" it was deemed broken so we banned it. Deoxys-D allegedly being low in usage is no different.

This is fundamental; this needs to be understood before you argue further. Usage =/= brokenness. Do not argue further in this thread until you understand this point. If I see any more arguing that Deo-D is not broken due to its "low" usage, your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if it is militant enough.

[GatoDelFuego]

@habib Ok, I really was a bit unfair about the magic bounce, people made the foolish argument before and nobody said anything about them so I really didn't give it much though. Still, magic bounce users are terrible at anything except blocking hazards, and they're very vulnerable to pursuit, and Ttar is a common partner (apparently?). However at that point we'll go on to theorymon an entire team but that gets us nowhere. We'll leave it that magic bounce users pretty much beat deoxys but won't be doing much good outside of cockblocking hazards. Still, that's what they're there for.

2. Really all of that section wasn't directed specifically at your arguments but rather the general idea that deoxys can't really beat all these things at once. While that's true, I wanted to show that deo doesn't have to go extreme measures to beat a large majority of the things that prevent more than one layer. It's very easy on deo-d's part to stop most attempts. I'd call SR + 1 spikes with deo-d standard if you're willing to accept my reasoning that deoxys can beat its counters a little over half the time. Not game-ending, but it's a pretty nice advantage to have. Still, the fact that deoxys can make 2 layers on average kind of scares me.

3. If you are making a team that is dedicated to be unbothered by hazards, then there's a problem with deoxys. Hazards are a common force and every team should be prepared for them. However, building a team with a clear focus on minimizing hazard problems will leave you with few options to check the rest of the metagame, similar to being a total rain counter makes you more vulnerable to other weather. While this isn't the place to really talk about that, it's not practical to build a team largely unbothered by deoxys' hazards. Though, if we're taking a team that doesn't mind hazards into account, deoxys' common partners really make it tough on these types of teams. But I don't want to throw more pokemon into this argument, which should be about deoxys. We can theorymon all day and things won't get done.

Another thing I've noticed: people say that lots of things can get guaranteed Stealth Rock up, which is what deoxys does. However, if you put one of these strategies built to counter deoxys, like sableye or starmie or whatever, it wouldn't even let a suicide lead like azelf or aerodactyl get any hazards. In this case, you can hold deoxys to 1 layer with something designed to counter it, wheras if you applied the same method to most other suicide leads they would get nothing.

Let me repeat that: against a legitimate counter to deoxys, you can hold it to one layer. If you did the same thing against other suicide leads, it would result in no layers.


I'm glad that things here were able to progress logically rather than just attacking every argument's flaws rather than what it's really talking about. Hopefully you feel the same way.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat GatoDelFuego

@habib Ok, I really was a bit unfair about the magic bounce, people made the foolish argument before and nobody said anything about them so I really didn't give it much though. Still, magic bounce users are terrible at anything except blocking hazards, and they're very vulnerable to pursuit, and Ttar is a common partner (apparently?). However at that point we'll go on to theorymon an entire team but that gets us nowhere. We'll leave it that magic bounce users pretty much beat deoxys but won't be doing much good outside of cockblocking hazards. Still, that's what they're there for.

2. Really all of that section wasn't directed specifically at your arguments but rather the general idea that deoxys can't really beat all these things at once. While that's true, I wanted to show that deo doesn't have to go extreme measures to beat a large majority of the things that prevent more than one layer. It's very easy on deo-d's part to stop most attempts. I'd call SR + 1 spikes with deo-d standard if you're willing to accept my reasoning that deoxys can beat its counters a little over half the time. Not game-ending, but it's a pretty nice advantage to have. Still, the fact that deoxys can make 2 layers on average kind of scares me.

3. If you are making a team that is dedicated to be unbothered by hazards, then there's a problem with deoxys. Hazards are a common force and every team should be prepared for them. However, building a team with a clear focus on minimizing hazard problems will leave you with few options to check the rest of the metagame, similar to being a total rain counter makes you more vulnerable to other weather. While this isn't the place to really talk about that, it's not practical to build a team largely unbothered by deoxys' hazards. Though, if we're taking a team that doesn't mind hazards into account, deoxys' common partners really make it tough on these types of teams. But I don't want to throw more pokemon into this argument, which should be about deoxys. We can theorymon all day and things won't get done.

Another thing I've noticed: people say that lots of things can get guaranteed Stealth Rock up, which is what deoxys does. However, if you put one of these strategies built to counter deoxys, like sableye or starmie or whatever, it wouldn't even let a suicide lead like azelf or aerodactyl get any hazards. In this case, you can hold deoxys to 1 layer with something designed to counter it, wheras if you applied the same method to most other suicide leads they would get nothing.

Let me repeat that: against a legitimate counter to deoxys, you can hold it to one layer. If you did the same thing against other suicide leads, it would result in no layers.


I'm glad that things here were able to progress logically rather than just attacking every argument's flaws rather than what it's really talking about. Hopefully you feel the same way.

I just want that this ''rocks 100% of the time'' argument be more expanded upon. Rocks are annoying but they are considered STANDARD battle conditions which makes this argument instantly not ban-valid. Rocks are assumed to be up most of the time on calcs. Deoxys-D is just a proof that rocks are a huge part of the meta and it shouldnt be banned cause of that.

[Vemane]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Did you seriously just underrate SR / imply its "shit"???



Yea because those current usage stats are SO excellent at telling us whats good or not. Keldeo and Deoxys-D were used by the top tourney battlers and both still sat low on the usage stats due to the general playerbase not using them (no idea why). Go look at the 1337 (or whatever the high ranking stats are) usage stats to get a better look at the usage of Deoxys-D please. (IIRC I think Lavos Spawn posted them)

Lastly claiming something has low usage so we shouldn't ban it is one of the most useless arguments ever. We have a precedent, as we banned Wobbuffet in Gen 4 despite it having "low usage" it was deemed broken so we banned it. Deoxys-D allegedly being low in usage is no different.

No, I didn't just imply sr is shit. I implied that deoxy's ability to setup one hazard all the time is absolutely nothing special whatsoever. Almost amything with sturdy or a sash or speed or anything can do that. Yes "deo dus many hazards and such!!!!" And i acknowledge that, but keep in mind that the post was in response to a comment that deod is god because it can get u ONE hazard, not to mention multiple layers.

And I wasn't claiming that usage had anything to do with deoxys's abilities. It was just a simple sidenote asking why we need an entire non-deo suspect ladder when it wouldn't be much different from the normal ladder by any means (in fact, would it not be more beneficial to have to rank on the normal one so there is some kind of experience with or against deo?)

[GatoDelFuego]

@SBB My point is that people have these dedicated sets to stopping deoxys, and even then people seem to agree depending on deoxys' item it can get two layers up if it's lucky. This means that if it's unlucky, it can get 1 layer up no matter what. BUT, if people used these same dedicated sets on any other suicide lead, it would result in no hazards up. Even when you bring something specifically designed to prevent hazards going up, one layer of rocks gets put into play. I don't think that's right. If you bring something designed to only kill deoxys and it gets up SR, then you have one useless poke, they have a dead deoxys, it's pretty much a 5-5, but they have rocks up.

Also, really people, when you're debating with somebody you don't have to say anything stupid like "deo dus many hazards!" and "scarf gar block starmie ermagerd!". There's no need to pretend like we're all complete idiots; we're all mature people who can have a reasonable debate if we chose to. If people are talking something stupid, then you can call them out on it, you don't have to drag yourself down to anybody's level.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat GatoDelFuego

@SBB My point is that people have these dedicated sets to stopping deoxys, and even then people seem to agree depending on deoxys' item it can get two layers up if it's lucky. This means that if it's unlucky, it can get 1 layer up no matter what. BUT, if people used these same dedicated sets on any other suicide lead, it would result in no hazards up. Even when you bring something specifically designed to prevent hazards going up, one layer of rocks gets put into play. I don't think that's right. If you bring something designed to only kill deoxys and it gets up SR, then you have one useless poke, they have a dead deoxys, it's pretty much a 5-5, but they have rocks up.

Yes. Again how is that ban-worthy? Im sorry but i just dont feel good realizing that the reason we are discussing this mon is cause it can setup rocks. Its just not enough. It needs to do something else.

[Audiosurfer]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

Yes. Again how is that ban-worthy? Im sorry but i just dont feel good realizing that the reason we are discussing this mon is cause it can setup rocks. Its just not enough. It needs to do something else.

The ability to set up hazards is something that's highly effective in OU, and saying that the ability to easily set up 2 layers of hazards isn't a problem is silly, since many pokemon can either score many more KOs or force switches to the point that the opposing team is taking lots of damage. So while 2 hazards might sound small, in practice it turns threats that were checkable into huge threats, and is the reason the HO playstyle is so powerful, since it becomes harder to switch your walls into powerful sweepers when a safe 3HKO becomes a 2HKO due to the 2 hazards that Deo-D got up with no problem. Even though Deo-D isn't 6-0ing teams on its own, the amount of support that it can provide to a team is gamebreaking, and as others said, it's very difficult to check due to its versatility and ease of countering potential checks.
EDIT: Also, you said you're not brainlessly spamming a move like with Torn-T, but you might as well be due to how easily this thing can get hazards up with little effort or consequence on the part of the user.

[undisputed]

Hey guys, settle down. We know there are Pokemon that can do damage to Deoxys-D, and there are even two OU Pokemon that can OHKO it. Most of the time, Deoxys-D will faint within the first 5 moves. That doesn't make it any less effective...

Deoxys-D, with maybe the exception of Deoxys-s, is the most reliable Pokemon in the OU tier. It can be tailored to do any hazard-related job you need, and it's so good that it has its own playstyle. Aside from Weather inducers, there is no other Pokemon that commands a specific playstyle. People keep saying that Deoxys-D can't run every possible coverage move, which is true, but the ability to beat every single counter is symptomatic of how good Deoxys-D is. I don't know any good player with a Deoxys-D team that can't beat Starmie, Tentacruel, Sableye, Forretress, or any of the other garbage that is being tossed around. A Deoxys-D team weak to those would be like making a Sun Team that just forfeits to Tyranitar. It doesn't happen.

Furthermore, Deoxys-D teams take minimal thought to execute correctly. They are literally so straight forward that anyone can use them. Set hazards, make a Spin Block or Pursuit the Magic Bouncer if necessary, and sweep until your Pokemon faints. Players that opt for Stealth Rock at the beginning of the match give Deoxys-D more free set-up turns and inevitably compound the issue later in the match. A lot of the supposed "counters" cannot stop Deoxys-D from using Stealth Rock and Spikes without becoming set-up bait next turn. CB Tyranitar OHKOes Deoxys-D only allowing SR, but then it could be staring down the face of something like a +2 Terrakion or another dangerous sweeper. Deoxys-D almost always start the match with the momentum, and it's usually incredibly hard to stop.

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

Yes. Again how is that ban-worthy? Im sorry but i just dont feel good realizing that the reason we are discussing this mon is cause it can setup rocks. Its just not enough. It needs to do something else.

We're not banning it on the basis of guaranteed Stealth Rock. While it's true that no other Pokemon matches Deoxys-D in efficiently setting up Stealth Rock, it's the momentum Deoxys-D carries with it. As a player, you are forced to use Choice Band Tyranitar or something ridiculous to stop it from getting more than Stealth Rock. If you opt for Stealth Rock of your own and you aren't Taunted, you've given Deoxys-D a free layer of Spikes. If you go for the OHKO and only allow SR, then you will face one of 5 dangerous OU set up sweepers while you're locked in.

I know you want to tell me "use Rapid Spin or Magic Bounce lololol", but that argument is getting pretty weak pretty fast. Rapid Spinners like Tentacruel and Starmie, even if they get past Deoxys-D, are just going to get Pursuit killed or Spin Blocked. Good luck finding a decent Deoxys-D team that allows you to Rapid Spin for free. Magic Bouncers teams are some of the easiest teams to beat because you can just Pursuit them with Tyranitar or Scizor. Magic Bouncers are also bad outside of Magic Bouncing hazards, so sacrificing a team slot for a sub-optimal Pokemon dedicated to beating Deoxys-D is pretty foolish.

[ginganinja]

And I wasn't claiming that usage had anything to do with deoxys's abilities. It was just a simple sidenote asking why we need an entire non-deo suspect ladder when it wouldn't be much different from the normal ladder by any means (in fact, would it not be more beneficial to have to rank on the normal one so there is some kind of experience with or against deo?)

Because ideally people would like to see a metagame without Deoxys-D so they can compare the 2 ladders and find out which is more enjoyable / whether Deoxys-D is unhealthy for the metagame etc etc. Note that I already addressed your argument when I stated its not actually uncommon when you actually get high on the ladder. For my part, I enjoy not needing to run a spinner on like, every single team (since on teams with Ferrothorn / Skarm they are usually paired with Jellicent which Starmie struggles to break) and thats made this new ladder rather nice to ladder on / observe battles.

[blitzlefan]

Question... but if they spend Deo-D getting hazards and you sack a mon spinning them away, isn't there no net gain anyway? You're both tied at 5-5 while the Deo-D team is locked into Pursuit or smth and (if you spun successfully), there's basically no chance of them having backup hazards. So... wouldn't that be a tie anyway?

Edit: Also, just because Deo-D has a lot of options doesn't mean it can use them ALL. Honestly, Stealth Rock and Spikes are obligatory, and Magic Coat/Taunt are pretty much required as well, leaving ONE moveslot for an offensive move. Yes, Deo-D has a wide movepool, but I don't see why unpredictability should be worthy of a ban. It can hit Forretress, Starmie, Tyranitar, with different moves, but it can't run them all. Also, the purpose of Deo-D is not to KO opposing mons but to get down hazards, and wasting a turn attacking (with pretty poor stats) seems detrimental to that cause. Yes, Deo-D can hit a lot of pokemon super-effectively, but moves on base 70 stats just don't seem all that threatening, especially as he has to resort to Fire Gem HP Fire or Fighting Gem Superpower shenanigans to get around Forretress/CB Tar. Also, lacking Mental Herb for Fighting Gem or whatnot means Deo-D is Taunt bait and gets shut down rather easily. Deo-D has a lot of options, but you have to consider that if you choose to pick a different option, the standard items like Mental Herb can't be run as well, or else this discussion simply ends up being "Deo-D can run everything gg it's going to Ubers". Other pokemon can also get up hazards and I don't see why Deo-D should be suspect just because it can set up hazards. Ferrothorn can also get up hazards rather reliably and has arguably better stats/typing to boot, as well as a WAY bigger support movepool, and yet it's not suspect. Furthermore, it has other uses other than spamming entry hazard moves (eg checking Dragon/Water types).

[HabibsHotDogs]

I can fully understand the threat that is associated with having SR + spikes but you must remember there are many teams that can effectively use SR + spikes, Deoxys-D just looks like the scapegoat of the hazard users because it is rather good at it but in order for it to be broken, It really should be ensuring those hazards win you the game, nearly every time! If hazards are overpowering on the meta that is a different issue but there are numerous pokemon that will not necessarily mind SR + spikes, take celebi for instance who loses approximately 25% after both are down on switch in, she is still walling the same pokemon as before.. and can recover (inb4 specs Keldeo can now 2hko Celebi with perfect prediction, Celebi won't want to switch out into hazards again, > I can set up on your weak HP Ghost). Pokemon like Forretress might not enjoy SR + spikes but I don't think anyone is caring much about that. And before you bring up the argument that SR + spikes allows her partners to break through walls, then power to them. Politoed is getting away with letting its partners SMASH through walls and getting away with turning previously solid UU pokemon into OU monsters and countering it involves changing the weather yourself or running a variety of weather checks. Tyranitar can be considered to a similar extent except the difference is the removal of excadrill and Sand Veil from OU greatly helped with nerfing sand as it has no where near the same amount of abusers as rain. Deo-D has even less abusers than sand, her entire team archetype is based upon the same premise: A high pressure team that makes it difficult for you to switch around whilst using the extra indirect damage to score ko's more easily.

The Deo-D HO strategy is a perfectly capable strategy and unlike various other '1 pokemon support team indirectly' strategies you can actually handle it with minimal effort, the fact that Deoxys-D requires x y and z items with a b and c moves whilst having d e and f partners just in order to drop and maintain hazards hardly makes it broken.

In contrast, assuming SR is standard, Ferrothorn just has to check that rotom w hydropump and now you have spikes on their field, Forretress has to check mamoswines earthquake and now u have spikes on their feild, Skarmory can check Dragonites outrage and now you have spikes on their field.

The only difference I can see is that Deoxys-D does it from the lead position as it is rather fast with a nice [lead] move pool and can't really check much pokemon but at the end of the day, Deo-D is breathing life into a strat that is otherwise rather difficult to pull off. It's not quite as gamebreaking as Deo-S's strat with HO teams by ensuring screens and then you probably had to face a smash pass or smash sweep or other set up sweeper and then another and then another.. or otherwise have your lead ohkoed by the anti-lead set. Hazards were quite literally an afterthought on Deo-S and that is what made it broken.


TL;DR: If you don't like hazards, that's not Deo-S's problem, if you don't like HO + hazards then you need to rethink your building strats, whilst some people have proposed solid arguements why Deo-D can so easily put up hazards I still think this is merely a case of people not wanting to deal with Deo-D and I can sympathise with that as there are already many overwhelming issues in OU...

On a less serious note, this summarises a lot of the OU community nicely.

"OU has 99 problems but I don't want Deo-D to be one"

[ginganinja]

take celebi for instance who loses approximately 25% after both are down on switch in, she is still walling the same pokemon as before.. and can recover.

This is incorrect. Even most Specially Defensive Celebi dislike entry hazards, as now Expert Belt Keldeo and LO Thundurus-T can 2KO it, and this is against the most specially defensive Celebi in the game, if its a NP Celebi, the number of pokemon that can outright OHKO / 2KO Celebi increases dramatically. You are even ignoring the standard Rotom-W, which can now Volt Switch around, forcing you to take 25% switching in PLUS Volt Switch damage and then forcing you out (since they have now brought in something that beats you forcing you back out). Nor is this limited to just Celebi, many, many things dislike SR + a layer of Spikes since it pushes a massive amount of pokemon into OHKO / 2KO range for a lot of sweepers. This is how HO teams work, forcing you on the back foot from the get go, and hammering home their advantage as quickly as possible. I am utterly flabbergasted and how much you underrate a layer of Stealth Rock and Spikes up, its amazing. (and I expect someone with lots of time on their hands will go through and provide pages of calcs to show the strength of the above hazards but w/e).

Ferrothorn and Skarmory are not even in the same LEAGUE as Deoxys-D. Deoxys-D can get past said spinners with the correct coverage move, nail such as Tyranitar / Scizor with Fight Gem Superpower / Fire Gem HP Fire, prevent set up (and opposing taunt) with its own Taunt / Thunder Wave, and is a heck of a lot faster giving it time to set up a layer before it gets KOed. Ferrothorn and Skarmory can switch in and spike on something they wall, but they lack the versatility and speed of Deoxys-D, which can still lead, and provide instant momentum Turn 1-2-3. Ferrothorn and Skarmory cannot do this (and Ferrothorn at least is potentially even more of a set up fodder than Deoxys-D is).

[drakon136]

Having played DW OU back in its prime, I prefer having as few bans as possible. However, I am of the opinion that Deoxys-D is overpowered and Uber-worthy, for three reasons:

- First of all, you need to use Choice Band Tyranitar if you want to be guaranteed to stop it from getting MORE than Stealth Rock up. Since the only thing that can OHKO a full health Deoxys-D is Choice Band Tyranitar, who is slower than Deoxys-D, you are not guaranteed to stop it from getting Stealth Rock up.

- It is able to get past all of its checks and counters by changing its moveset a little. You can bring in a CB Tyranitar, but what if your opponent has Fighting Gem and Superpower? You can use Taunt, but what if your opponent has Magic Coat? You can lead with Espeon or Xatu, but what if your opponent has an offensive set with Dark Pulse or Thunderbolt?
Spinning the hazards away isn't a guarantee either; Deoxys-D can easily get around Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel with Hidden Power Fire, Thunderbolt, and Psycho Boost respectively.

- It is remarkably diverse for a defensive Pokemon. Not only can it run a fast Spikes set, it can also run a bulky or offensive set too, both effectively. It can set up Reflect and Light Screen. It can stall out some of your Pokemon with Toxic and Recover. Hell, it can even use Nasty Plot and give you a beating when you expect it to set up hazards.

[Soul Fly]

Originally Posted by Fat drakon136

Having played DW OU back in its prime, I prefer having as few bans as possible. However, I am of the opinion that Deoxys-D is overpowered and Uber-worthy, for three reasons:

- First of all, you need to use Choice Band Tyranitar if you want to be guaranteed to stop it from getting MORE than Stealth Rock up. Since the only thing that can OHKO a full health Deoxys-D is Choice Band Tyranitar, who is slower than Deoxys-D, you are not guaranteed to stop it from getting Stealth Rock up.

- It is able to get past all of its checks and counters by changing its moveset a little. You can bring in a CB Tyranitar, but what if your opponent has Fighting Gem and Superpower? You can use Taunt, but what if your opponent has Magic Coat? You can lead with Espeon or Xatu, but what if your opponent has an offensive set with Dark Pulse or Thunderbolt?
Spinning the hazards away isn't a guarantee either; Deoxys-D can easily get around Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel with Hidden Power Fire, Thunderbolt, and Psycho Boost respectively.

THIS.

- It is remarkably diverse for a defensive Pokemon. Not only can it run a fast Spikes set, it can also run a bulky or offensive set too, both effectively. It can set up Reflect and Light Screen. It can stall out some of your Pokemon with Toxic and Recover. Hell, it can even use Nasty Plot and give you a beating when you expect it to set up hazards.

This seems fun. I need to try this in OU. Surprise factor is over 9000. TBH I hadn't considered that, but now as I think about it, it makes perfect sense. If Lucario can Sweep with Base 90 Spe, why not Deo-D? Deo-D can Survive a lot, LOT more than Lucario does, so setting up should be a cinch.
Bluff Rocks get MB/Spinner/Check out, and laugh at their face while you Set Up nasty Plot. Probably 2. you have enough bulk to survive SE hits with barely a dent, we already know that. Hmm, this must be tried.

[Super Mario Bro]

I think people in this thread are blowing things majorly out of proportion. "Oh, it can run Electric Gem and Thunderbolt to beat both Tentacruel and Starmie!". Yes, it can technically do that, but face the facts -- it would be a silly option to even consider. I've faced hundreds of Deoxys-D teams in my Pokemon career, and nearly all of the top players I've faced use Red Card, Mental Herb or Rocky Helmet because they are consistently useful items. Fire Gem will be dead against some teams, and Electric Gem Thunderbolt is probably worthless against most teams.

Some of these posts arguing that it should be banned because of its supposed versatility are laughable (somebody even said that it can beat things up with Nasty Plot, lol). If Deoxys-D were to be banned, it would be because he is a brutally efficient hazard setter and puts an enormous amount of pressure on teams that lack Rapid Spin (and even on some that do have a spinner); not because he is versatile. In fact, I would say that versatility is one of Deoxys-D's weak points, as he suffers from 4 move-slot syndrome, and can only effectively run variations of one set. Most teams are going to use Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Taunt (not this whatever gem nonsense) because they are the most consistently useful moves, and only have one slot to work with as a result. One to two slots at most doesn't spell versatility at all. Versatility is Jirachi, Mew, Celebi, and Heatran, who can all run so many different sets that it's nearly impossible to predict what they are going to do. I would definitely agree with the argument that Deoxys-S' versatility was one of the factors that made him ban-worthy, but it should be clear that his level of versatility is in a completely different league than that of Deoxys-D.

My personal opinion is that Deoxys-D has no place in an ideal metagame; one without auto-weather, overpowered offensive threats, and broken sleep mechanics -- right now, this meta lacks these qualities. I won't be upset if he's banned, but the timing of this test seems awkward to me, as there are other things that are more relevant and have a larger negative impact on the metagame. But I won't get into that.

[GatoDelFuego]

@SuperMarioBro You have a very clean argument that really gets down to the core of the problem. A lot of pro-ban people are talking about these offensive sets that can take care of spinners but it's not an ideal set, even running a LO set with more offensive moves leaves you too open to other methods of beating deoxys. I've always assumed Steath Rock, Spikes, Taunt, and rocky helmet, with the last move a tossup between thunder wave and magic coat. This way in my opinion deoxys beats the maximum number of its counters at one time, 2/3 viable methods not including rapid spin. This means that 66% of the time something designed to stop deoxys will fail to stop it getting stealth rock up for sure, and sometimes two layers. Even dedicated counters to deoxys cannot prevent stealth rock.

The problem is, not every team can even afford to run these types of pokemon. Rapid spinners and magic bouncers, while the best way to stop deoxys, are really not all that viable. The problem is that deoxys' hazard laying skills are so high it forces you to kill it/spin hazards as quickly as possible. Only someone with a very high level of skill can play 100% around a deoxys at all, and that's if the person using deoxys is totally mindless. This is another point: deoxys takes almost no skill to use at near maximum level. If the deoxys player is any good, it can play around the other team just like anyone else, but if the opposing player is not on this level, then all hazards can just go right up and pretty much end the game.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat GatoDelFuego

@SuperMarioBro You have a very clean argument that really gets down to the core of the problem. A lot of pro-ban people are talking about these offensive sets that can take care of spinners but it's not an ideal set, even running a LO set with more offensive moves leaves you too open to other methods of beating deoxys. I've always assumed Steath Rock, Spikes, Taunt, and rocky helmet, with the last move a tossup between thunder wave and magic coat. This way in my opinion deoxys beats the maximum number of its counters at one time, 2/3 viable methods not including rapid spin. This means that 66% of the time something designed to stop deoxys will fail to stop it getting stealth rock up for sure, and sometimes two layers. Even dedicated counters to deoxys cannot prevent stealth rock.

The problem is, not every team can even afford to run these types of pokemon. Rapid spinners and magic bouncers, while the best way to stop deoxys, are really not all that viable. The problem is that deoxys' hazard laying skills are so high it forces you to kill it/spin hazards as quickly as possible. Only someone with a very high level of skill can play 100% around a deoxys at all, and that's if the person using deoxys is totally mindless. This is another point: deoxys takes almost no skill to use at near maximum level. If the deoxys player is any good, it can play around the other team just like anyone else, but if the opposing player is not on this level, then all hazards can just go right up and pretty much end the game.

Ill be honestly and say that youre overestimating Deoxys-D. Ill give you an example of how my battles usually goes: Situation 1: Oponent has Volcarona, Ttar or something that can ko Deoxys or use it as setup fodder, so i dont lead with it, and find nearly impossible to bring it later safely. Situation 2: Oponent leads with stuff like ferro, forretress or any other taunt bait. Instead of switching out of taunt the oponent leaves the mon there to be taunted by Deoxys-D allowing me to get a lot of hazards. See where i am getting into. The only times i was able to use Deoxys-D sucesfully was when the oponent made horrible misplays. That can easily be applied to any ou mon.

[alexwolf]

I want to start with some disclaimers:

• Originally Posted by Fat Lavos Spawn

  when played correctly deo-d almost always gets two to three layers of hazards, meaning rocks plus one or two layers of spikes.

  This is false. In almost every game i played with Deo-D and against Deo-D (and yeah in many of those games it was played correctly) Deo-D gets SR or SR + 1 Spikes at best. Out of the 75 games i played i only got SR + 2 or 3 Spikes only in ~5 games. It is actually very easy to prevent Deo-D from getting any more than SR without becoming set-up bait too. Here are some offensive natured examples: SpD CB Scizor (lives even LO HP Fire and puts into KO range Deo-D for any faster Pokemon), SubGengar, LO Garchomp, Rock Polish Landorus, Jolly CB Kyurem-B, LO Hydreigon with Dark Pulse, Volcarona, LO Alakazam, Weavile, LO Thundurus-T). There are more Pokemon that limit Deo-D only to SR, but they become set-up bait afterwards (LO or Specs Latios, CBTar, CB Landorus-T and more)
• Deo-D only has one free slot in the most common set. SR + Spikes + Taunt are almost mandatory. This still leaves Deo-D with one free slot to do whatever it wants to its counters, as well as one item slot, which are enough to screw with the common ways used to deal with it (Magic Coat + Red Card, Mental Herb + T-Wave, Mental Herb + Skill Swap, Night Shade + Rocky Helmet etc). And this set is Deo-D's best and the only one that can possibly make it broken, while requring little support. Other sets with LO + Psycho Boost and HP Fire/Tbolt, or Superpower + Fighting Gem are good sets, but they require team support to function. The only reason that they work is because of the surprise factor. Why they require a lot of support to work you might ask. Here is why. First they need a teammate to deal with faster Taunt users (Lead Terrakion, lead Aerodactyl, Sableye, SubPass Gliscor), Magic Mirror Pokemon (Espeon, Xatu if Deo-D doesn't have Tbolt), and finally stat-up boosters (true only for the dual attacks set that don't have Taunt). Finally, from my experience, most Superpower Deo-D are very obvious, as their main purpose is to lure and kill Ttar, meaning that they are almost always in Sun teams, making them very easy to spot.
  
  tl;dr Deo-D's non attacking set is the best, and the only one that should be considered for making Deo-D broken.

• Originally Posted by Fat yee

  please don't worry if this nerfs weatherless offense. If it's unable to keep up with Sand / Rain / Sun because they are too powerful, they are very arguably broken on their own and we will get to them with almost no doubt. If you hold back because of this worry you are only hurting us.

  This logic is flawed and the conclusion false. In the current meta weatherless offense is able to keep up with weather teams, showing us that weather teams are not inherently broken as you assume. Stop saying that weather teams are already broken as if it is a fact. Not only you Yee, whoever says it in general.
• Weatherless offense teams are not broken, and i don't think that they are even the best playstyle in the metagame. They are annoying to deal with, but not broken at all. This doesn't mean that Deo-D can't be banned, but it means that it isn't too strong or overpowered for OU.

Now from my experience with and against Deo-D i have to say that Deo-D is not broken. He is annoying but not difficult to deal with, and can be handled with good teambuilding. There are many ways to deal with it and most of them have alredy been mentioned. The most solid are Rapid Spinners or Pokemon that can 2HKO it, limiting it to only SR. Yeah Rapid Spinners can be dealt with by the attacking set, or spinblocked, but this requires support or the use of an inferior set that requires even more supppot than the common Deo-D (Psycho Boost or Superpower sets). Yeah sure Deo-D teams can use Weavile + Gengar like i do, but they pay a price by doing so. If it wasn't for the spinblocking and the Pursuit trapping aspect, there are usually better offensive Pokemon than those. So the Deo-D player has to use Pokemon that are inferior to others in terms of sheer power and sweeping ability, but provide things that Deo-D needs. So Deo-D isn't just slapped in offensive teams and makes them work. Thought is required to keep your hazards intact, and even if you keep your hazards up the battle can still be in equal grounds with your opponent. So all in all the meta has enough tools to deal with Deo-D, but players still refuse to account for it when teambuilding. After all, as i already said, weatherless offensive teams are not even the best playstyle out there, so how can Deo-D be broken?

However, Deo-D needs to be banned. Why? Because it is unhealthy for the metagame. It makes it more offensive, and heavily punishes defensive teams, be it defensive balance, semi-stall or full stall. Deo-D is almost impossible to deal with when using one of those teams, and to handle it extreme measures must be taken (CBTar is the only reasonable solution that stall teams have for Deo-d). Even if the stall team uses Sableye or Xatu or something, those Pokemon can and will be bypassed in the long run, especially against defensive teams, which are known for their slow play. Xatu will be Pursuit trapped or Skill Swaped and Sableye will get screwed by almost every single Deo-D variant out there. Defensive teams have already started being a bit more viable after Genesect and Torn-T were banned, so banning Deo-D would bring even more life to them, which is something that will be very good for the meta imo.

EDIT: Oh and SuperMarioBro's post is so very true!

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat Neliel Tu Oderschvank

Im fine with this thing in uber, i think its quite stupid that something can always setup stealth rock and probably spikes without anyway to avoid it (because of some troll moves like Skill swap, magic coat, mental herb and so on)
I dont think its uber by itself but the fact that you can make a deo-d+5 random sweeper a viable choice in ou its very stupid.
The only thing im worried about is, why should i use a weatherless team now? without deo-d weatherless teams will just lose any sense to exist.

I find this hardly true. Some of the best weatherless teams that completely destroy my team lack Deoxys-D. I've never made a hardcore weather team like a majority of the people on this site, and honestly I must say that I fucking love weatherless teams. It's like, have people even tried to actually build weatherless teams without Deo-D? It's so easy. Every team I've made has been weatherless, and in fact my latest team I made a while back which uses an underrated powerhouse in the form of Mienshao, I've only lost to weatherless teams! Rain is so predictable and dry that I can foresee the opponent's strategy before even beginning the battle! Although it's not as spammy with Torn-T gone, it's always the same core consisting of Toad/Creul/Keldeo/Ferrothorn. Anyways, I find Deo-D really only boosts HO weatherless teams, but honestly bulkier weatherless teams aren't really effected at all since most prefer something like Ferrothorn or Forretress to get up hazards. In no way shape or form is weatherless teams going to be unviable if Deo-D goes to Uber, HO is just going to get a nerf, not weatherless teams as a whole. I couldn't give a fuck about HO anyway. I find it to be a rather lazy play style.

[Nyara]

One thing: Deoxys-D is not the core of weatherless teams, it's the core of HyperOffensive (HO) teams, usually, HyperOffense is did on weatherless teams, but that's far from being all the picture, as an HO team can be used at the same time of other playstyle without any major trouble.

Anyway, I find Ferrothorn a lot more broken than Deoxys, Ferro walls the 90-95% of the metagame and can easily setup SR + 1 layer of spikes + Leech Seed something, it's unique trully weakness; fire, is easy to cover, and yeah, that's pretty much all, Ferro setups hazards on the face of almost the entire metagame, and still walls and annoy the entire metagame afterwards, while Deoxys-D's unique job is to setup SR + 1 layer of spikes (2 layers against newbies or getting lucky), and that's pretty much all, generally.

Of course, Deoxys-D is somewhat useless against teams prepared for SR, or with spinners, that are almost... everything on the tier, yeah, he's not that horrible to handle, he's just a hazard spammer, and is somewhat useless outside of it. Proof of that is the fact that HO teams are really far to being broken, they are threats, but they are really far from being broken, and even if we ban Deoxys-D, nothing will change, as Forrestress and Ferrothorn does the same and usually better.

Deoxy-D's edge over the other hazard Pokémon is the fact that he's not weak to Ninetales or Hydreigon leads, that's a nice edge, but usually, that problem can still be handled with other Pokémon and just leaving the hazards stage for some turns later.

Still, Ferrothorn and Deoxy-D's presense makes you a must to have a counter to them and of preference, a spinner, as otherwise you're on a big, big trouble, and that restrict your options at some degree, so, I could rather be OK by banning Deoxy-D's as long Ferrothorn is also banned, otherwise doesn't have too many sense. This suspect doesn't have too many sense, anyway, HO playstyle is rarely a top threat, and just banning or not Deoxys-D you're not stopping the usual spam of hazards on the tier, anyway.

[Vemane]

Also, I think people are hugely overestimating deoxy's bulk.

It is VERY easy to limit it to just rocks:
Cb tar, most u-turners to a faster strong poke, etc

If it is offensive, things like specs toad 1hko altogether

And this is ignoring taunt and such