Balanced Hackmons

[JirachiCelebiMew]

Arctic, good thing I didn't take credit for it. I knew I saw it somewhere, just didn't know where it came from. I usually ladder with it, but now I can say it was GS's idea :D Also, I have a couple of Magic Bounce users + Soundproof user for Perish Song.

[Manitary]

Substitute, Protect, Baton Pass...what's the four move? As of now, Taunt and Encore can block this thing.

[Imanalt]

Taunt, encore, perish song, and things like rock blast from rhydon can beat those shuckles, although rock blast can lose if you get unlucky and outplayed. In general i throw taunt +perish song on an imposter to beat them without changing my team much

[Sterero]

Is Shadow Tag allowed in this meta? I've always wanted to try this set-up but I've never found the time to play:

Giratina
Magic Bounce
-Stealth Rock
-Thunder Wave
-Memento
-Spore

Lugia / Blissey@Salac Berry
Shadow Tag
-Taunt
-Substitute
-Belly Drum
-Baton Pass

Slaking@Life Orb
Scrappy / Mold Breaker
-Extremespeed
-Hi Jump Kick / Close Combat
-why would you even
-need these two slots

This should be pretty straightforward. Memento -> Lugia set-up -> Wreck stuff with Slaking.

[Imanalt]

Shadow tag was banned a while ago because of how abusable it is with baton pass...

On another note, ive been trying to find a niche for sheer force mons, probably as stallbreakers, but havent had much success, i tried out mewtwo with tbolt/ice beam/earth power/magic coat, but it lacks power without stab. However most everything with SE stab vs lugia is slower than it, meaning roost can stall it out. Does anyone have any other suggestions for how to abuse sheer force?

[Arkeis]

Try Kyurem-White with Hail Support.

252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem White (Neutral) Blizzard vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Multiscale Lugia (+SpDef): 50% - 60% (212 - 252 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Even with a neutral nature and damage cut in half, Blizzard still 2HKOs. Add Stealth Rock for more damage.

Blizzard also 2HKOs Max SDef+ Cresselia and Shuckle (again with Hail support) so everything that isn't Blissey/Chansey or resists Ice gets 2HKOed.

Have Blue Flare for Steel-types, Earth Power for Flash Fire Steels, and one other move of your choice.

[Imanalt]

The problem with relying on hail support is you pretty muvh have to waste a mon for it, and since most stall teams are sandstall, you also need to win the weather war

[mantzik32]

How about Sheer Force Zekrom w/ Coil, Bolt Strike, Dragon Rush and Icicle Crash / Sub? Electric has pretty poor coverage in the meta, but it's still insanely powerful.

Also, I'm testing out tinted lens Hydreigon. Shell Smash, Draco, D Pulse and Outrage. It's imposter fodder but I bet it's damn powerful.

+2 252 SpA+ Tinted Lens Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs 252/252+ Escavalier: 98.26% - 116.28% (338 - 400) 87.5% chance to OHKO.

[Imanalt]

Draco meteor paired with set up is silly, and why not use a stronger dragon like rayquaza or dialga... Regardless it is still complete imposter fodder...

As to the zekrom: it has nowhere near enough power to break stall, is slower than lugia so will struggle with roost, and dragon rush's accuracy makes it not worth it...

Im starting to regress to my original opinion that sheer force is just not worth it in this meta :/

[Cobraroll]

I once proposed a Zekrom set with Prankster Soak and a powerful physical Electric move. Should have perfect coverage on turn two, given that the opponent doesn't switch. Granted, that's what you have Pursuit for. The fourth move could be Aqua Tail or something, so you have a STAB to fall back on should you ever be hoist by your own petard.

[mikeweltevrede]

Originally Posted by Fat Sterero

Slaking@Life Orb
Scrappy / Mold Breaker
-Extremespeed
-Hi Jump Kick / Close Combat
-why would you even
-need these two slots

Hmm, maybe you need those slots because you get walled by ghosts if you don't have scrappy? :]

[MrMax]

I have been using this Kyurem-W set and its pretty good:
Kyurem-White @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sniper
Modest Nature
- Frost Breath
- Draco Meteor
- Volt Switch
- Switcheroo

Basically, Frost Breath is a 120 base power STAB move, that ignores defensive boosts, and spA drops as well. This allows it to use Draco Meteor and still have an extremely powerful move backing it. Switcheroo and Volt Switch are self explanatory, and the set as a whole works pretty well. Any thoughts or improvements?

[mantzik32]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

Draco meteor paired with set up is silly, and why not use a stronger dragon like rayquaza or dialga... Regardless it is still complete imposter fodder...

As to the zekrom: it has nowhere near enough power to break stall, is slower than lugia so will struggle with roost, and dragon rush's accuracy makes it not worth it...

Im starting to regress to my original opinion that sheer force is just not worth it in this meta :/

You're right about Rayquaza and Dialga but I like throwing on a Dark-type to resist Stored Power. Otherwise, it's a fun set that can catch people off guard. I suppose Dark Pulse or Judgment could replace Draco, but the purpose of the set was to just spam unresisted dragon moves.

Not seeing how Zekrom 'lacks the power' to break stall. Bolt Strike does 69-82% to both Shuckle and Lugia (with roost). It can't do much against Rhydon, but it can take a hit with the boosts from Coil. Also, Dragon Rush's accuracy is boosted to ~99% with one Coil. It's not a great set to tackle the meta, but it's not bad.

[verbatim]

Rhydon is going to be taking your Coil boosts with Heart Swap, after which point you are in a rather precarious position (+1 Nature Power hurts, a lot).

[Imanalt]

so basically it seems i need to rant about why you all need to use escavalier more, given it dropped all the way to 35 in usage stats in february.

Escavalier is one of the top 5 or 10 mons in bh. Its typing and bulk allows it to reliably take most every unboosted attack in the meta except for vcreate (and actually can take a lot of boosted attacks, like +6 gengar aura sphere). To go along with this bulk, base 135 attack and a power 150 move in gyro ball (it hits power 150 against essentially all mons in the tier) allows it to do real hurt to the opponents team.

I think part of why escavalier doesnt tend to get used is that people dont see what role it has. I prefer using it as a pivot with magic bounce and uturn, which makes it one of the best switchins to giratina in the tier and allows it to hurt their switch and allow me to get a counter in with a very powerful u-turn. (my preferred set is gyro ball/u-turn/recover/stealth rock, spikes or rapid spin). However, escavalier has an immense amount of versatility. It can run prankster to be able to hit 2 gyro balls before the opponent can hit you twice with copycat, or to have a fast encore or spore, or revenge kill a mon (also with copycat). And not only can it fill either of these two roles, but it can also be a very good tank with flash fire removing its weakness and making it nearly impossible to ko.

so yeah. use escavalier more.... a lot more...

[Kirbyofthestars]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

I think part of why escavalier doesnt tend to get used is that people dont see what role it has. I prefer using it as a pivot with magic bounce and uturn, which makes it one of the best switchins to giratina in the tier and allows it to hurt their switch and allow me to get a counter in with a very powerful u-turn. (my preferred set is gyro ball/u-turn/recover/stealth rock, spikes or rapid spin). However, escavalier has an immense amount of versatility. It can run prankster to be able to hit 2 gyro balls before the opponent can hit you twice with copycat, or to have a fast encore or spore, or revenge kill a mon (also with copycat). And not only can it fill either of these two roles, but it can also be a very good tank with flash fire removing its weakness and making it nearly impossible to ko.

so yeah. use escavalier more.... a lot more...

I use a Contrary Rayquaza in BH (with V-Create, nonetheless), and I have a feeling that it would really love the idea of Escavalier coming into greater usage. :P

However, as you said, it might be better with Flash Fire; still, though, that leaves it vulnerable, in turn, to Prankster users.

[Imanalt]

Frankly contrary vcreate mons are on the whole really not giod, which is why i listed flash fire third. It is to my mind clearly an inferior option 9.9

Id actually suggest replacing your contrary ratquaza. Its incredibly weak to imposters. If you really want to use a contrarymon id reccomend dialga
Set:
Dialga@leftovers
Contrary
Neutral (!!!) nature (or timid if you dont mind weaker vcreate)
-Substitute
-V-Create
-Draco Meteor
-Recover/coverage move of choice (superpower, overheat, leaf storm, etc)

[Kirbyofthestars]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

Frankly contrary vcreate mons are on the whole really not giod, which is why i listed flash fire third. It is to my mind clearly an inferior option 9.9

Id actually suggest replacing your contrary ratquaza. Its incredibly weak to imposters. If you really want to use a contrarymon id reccomend dialga
Set:
Dialga@leftovers
Contrary
Neutral (!!!) nature (or timid if you dont mind weaker vcreate)
-Substitute
-V-Create
-Draco Meteor
-Recover/coverage move of choice (superpower, overheat, leaf storm, etc)

The only thing, aside from typing, that Dialga has over Rayquaza is Defense and Sp. Def. Rayquaza is slightly faster, which helps, and can use V-Create and Draco Meteor with great power, since it has both 150 Atk and Sp. Atk.

Rayquaza is immune to all ground-type moves, obviously, although it can be poisoned, and is vulnerable to Stealth Rock. Dialga is vulnerable to Aura Sphere and Earthquake (or any other Fighting or Ground moves), although it is not damaged super effectively by other dragon-type moves.

Oddly enough, on one of my teams, I do use a Dialga, but mainly for Shedinja-killing (Rocky Helmet) and Speed Boost attacks, as well as "sleep-troll preventative" with Sleep Talk.

If any Contrary Pokemon sets up in BH, very little can stop it, though (such as Prankster or a missed attack).

[Imanalt]

Actually its trivial to stop contrary mons in bh. Imposter pokemon can come in on any nonsubbed contrary mon and beat it, prankster heart swap rhydon demolishes all contrary mons without leaf storm, unaware pokemon can usually trivially wall all but the most powerful contrary mons (modest kyu-w is the only mon whose neutral draco meteor has even a chance to 2hko unaware lugia).

Regardless, the advantages of dialga are several. It is the only mon that can have its substitute survive dragon tails, giving it opportunities to set up without being in a position to immediately get demolished by an impostermon. A sub also allows you to at least put pressure on whatever they try to pass the boosts too (you also force rhydon to baton pass because 2 dmeteors will ko rhydon i believe.)

[Kirbyofthestars]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

Actually its trivial to stop contrary mons in bh. Imposter pokemon can come in on any nonsubbed contrary mon and beat it, prankster heart swap rhydon demolishes all contrary mons without leaf storm, unaware pokemon can usually trivially wall all but the most powerful contrary mons (modest kyu-w is the only mon whose neutral draco meteor has even a chance to 2hko unaware lugia).

Regardless, the advantages of dialga are several. It is the only mon that can have its substitute survive dragon tails, giving it opportunities to set up without being in a position to immediately get demolished by an impostermon. A sub also allows you to at least put pressure on whatever they try to pass the boosts too (you also force rhydon to baton pass because 2 dmeteors will ko rhydon i believe.)

Hmmm, well: I've beaten many Imposter Pokemon with the Contrary Pokemon itself (due to move misses, as well as moving first, among other things; if they switch into a V-Create, it gives me an extra speed boost; since Rayquaza has higher Attack, its V-Creates are a bit more potent, especially in the sun), as well as a Heart Swap Rhydon (it switched-in, I believe, taking an attack, and then I easily finished it off, even without boosts); since Dragon Tail has low priority, it isn't much of a risk, unless the move misses.

With Lugia, there's also the possibility of using an Imposter Blissey on it, or a Pokemon with Thunder, if it is supplemented by rain (you could even use a Rock Head Volt Tackle Slaking/Regigigas, though I haven't tried that yet :D).

[Imanalt]

I dont really know what to say to this...

Basically your entire argument for rhydon and imposters is that your opponent will switch in stupidly on moves they cant take, instead of doing something intelligent like switching rhydon in on vcreate, or bringing an imposter in after a kill... Or when even stupid play cant prevent it from stopping your sweeping you basically just say "that pokemon has weaknesses". Protip: all mons have exploitable weaknesses.

Please please please just accept that unlike you i actually have a clue what im doing and listen to me...

Also i'd like to point out there is absolutely zero reason to use rock head in bh seeing as magic guard completely outclasses...

[Kirbyofthestars]

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

I dont really know what to say to this...

Basically your entire argument for rhydon and imposters is that your opponent will switch in stupidly on moves they cant take, instead of doing somethung intelligent like swicthing rhydon in on vcreate, or bringing an imposter in after a kill... Or when even stupid play cant prevent it from stopping your sweeping you basically just say "that pokemon has weaknesses". Protip: all mons have exploitable weaknesses.

Please please please just accept that unlike you i actually have a clue what im doing and listen to me...

Also i'd like to point out there is absolutely zero reason to use rock head in bh seeing as magic guard completely outclasses...

I did have a Rhydon switch in on V-Create, if my memory serves me well (which is how I was able to defeat it after it used Heart Swap), since the battle was a while ago, as well as had opponents bring Imposters in, as I mentioned previously. It is obvious that all Pokemon have weaknesses, and I am in no way denying this, but the same thing works in reverse (Protip: not everything the opponent throws at you always works). It is not as if my team is consisting of a single Rayquaza...

What you are right about, though, is that it should be Magic Guard instead of Rock Head. I keep forgetting about all these different abilities... :P
Unlike you probably expect me to be, I am not merely a newbie trying to act like I know everything. Though, I am not ignorant, and I'm not trying to say that I do know everything; and I'm certainly not overconfident, if you are suggesting that I am.

[Cobraroll]

Prankster Simple Beam could also be a way to stop Contrary users. I'm not sure if the effect lasts for the remainder of the match, or if the ability is reset when the target switches, but if the former is true, Contrary sweepers become dead weight rather quickly, losing a tremendous amount of power for every move. If you add Mean Look to your Prankster's move pool, you can trap and set up on the increasingly helpless opponent.

[Varfor]

Simple Beam's effect does end when the pokemon switches out and it is generally an inferior choice for beating Contrary Pokemon, as by the time you see it's a contrary pokemon and switch in your pokemon with Simple Beam, they will already at least be at +2, allowing them to do a huge amount of damage to your Pokemon and afterwards they can just switch out and come back in later to restore their ablilty.


I agree with Imanalt about Escavalier, I've been using it myself with Flash Fire.

Originally Posted by Fat Imanalt

(and actually can take a lot of boosted attacks, like +6 gengar aura sphere)

However, I disagree that it can take +6 Gengar's Aura Sphere. +6 Timid Gengar has a 93.75% chance to OHKO Escavalier with Stealth Rock on the field. I's not really a problem though, as most Gengar you face will never get past +2.

[Imanalt]

I lost a battle to verbatim long ago because +6 gar failed to ohko. I believe he runs a +sdef nature, which may be why