Project Neverused: Revival

[TheFrogMafia]

Masquerain @ Focus Sash
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Hydro Pump / Air Slash / Roost
- Quiver Dance
- Baton Pass

This set I have been using for the past few days, and it is quite effective. The only other pokemon able to pass a QD is Venomoth, and he's banished to the depths of BL2. I find the offensive variant with two attacking move more useful than Roost variants because in a pinch, Masq can run a pretty decent attacking set if there is no one to pass QD to. However, I've found roost does have it's own merits, and you can use it if you so crave. Intimidate REALLY helps against physical attackers, and helps against the supreme fighting types in the tier, namely Sawk and Gurdurr. I've been passing the boosts to my bulky Exeggutor and a Vanillish set posted earlier in the thread. Some big advice I have is: use this alongside a spinner, and It's probably best as a lead. I have to say, Masquerain being #147 in usage statistics is truly a crime.

[Shovel]

Grumpig @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 204 HP / 252 SDef / 52 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Protect
- Torment
- Psychic

Grumpig. I will always love this Pokemon, what with it being on my first successful nu team. Not only that, but it is beautiful. And purple. Anyway. This set sets out to annoy common choice users and special attackers, as well as some walls (depending on the attacking prowess of the Pokemon, seeing as if you have a sub they generally cant do too much). Substitute + Protect + Torment is the main point of this set. Substitute and Protect help ease prediction, and Torment, of course, makes predicting a ton easier, lets you switch safely, and causes choice users to Struggle if they dare stay in after a Torment. Torment is kind of cool to use against Pokemon that only carry one move to hurt Grumpig, but isnt that obvious c: Psychic for obligatory STAB, as well as a move to alleviate taunt a little bit.

The evs are kind of weird. 204 hp give Grumpig a leftovers number (I think..), and an hp number divisible by 4. 252 Special Defense because it can sponge special hits super easily, especially with Thick Fat involved. 52 SpA doesn't help THAT much. But it does help do a bit more damage coming off of 90 Special Attack. No investment is placed into defense because, well. Base 65 defense needs full investment to help, really.

Good partners with this set are Misdreavus and Gurdurr. Misdreavus can burn opposing Pokemon, so that Grumpigs lackluster defense is patched up, and helps the prediction against Pokemon such as Zangoose and Ursaring (as will be shown below). Misdreavus can Heal Bell any status away from Grumpig too, which could be a problem. Gurdurr takes out Steel and Dark types, which hinder Grumpig's abilities to Torment successfully.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu7698709 <- There is a pretty bad replay, but hey. It worked here to ease prediction.

Originally Posted by Fat TheFrogMafia

Masquerain @ Focus Sash
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Bug Buzz
- Hydro Pump / Air Slash / Roost
- Quiver Dance
- Baton Pass
.

Ive faced that set quite a few times, and watched some matches. Its very effective at what it sets out to do, especially with Baton Pass. My favourite partner that Ive seen with it so far is Seismitoed, because it resists or is immune to Masquerain's weakness to rock and electric.

[TyranoWins]

That Flareon topic make me think of a set:


Flareon @ Toxic Orb
Ev's: 252 atk, 200 speed, 52 HP
Ability: Guts. Nature: Adamant
~ Facade
~ Flame charge
~ Rest
~ Sleep Talk

It can be powerful with the status change + Facade + 394 atk. After a Flame Charge boost it reaches 324, enough to outspeed almost all the tier. The bad part is that it's so weak, it can barely survive 2 decent attacks, but maybe it could work as a lategame sweeper.

[EBeast]

Yeah I've seen that set being used before on PS ladder and quite frankly it is very poor. Rock-type Pokemon such as Golem, Regirock, and Carracosta are common and can easily threaten Flareon or take the opportunity to set up Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock themselves also threaten Flareon a lot and will wear it down quickly alongside its Toxic Orb. While it has the Rest Sleep Talk combination, with the 5th gen Sleep mechanics and Flareon's lack of bulk with this set it will be very difficult to get Flareon to wake up. The worse thing is that Facade doesn't double in power when sleeping, so Sleep Talking a Facade will result in a weak 70 BP move. With the abundance of powerful physical attacks and Water-type Pokemon, Flareon just doesn't really have a place in NU right now.

[ium]

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power
- Toxic / Sludge Wave

so this set has been used by a bunch of people, but i've been using it extensively for like the past month and it's pretty damn good. seismitoad's ability to threaten many stealth rock leads allows offensive pressure to be applied from the get-go. few pokemon can switch into seismitoad easily, so it being behind a substitute can really cause some trouble for a huge portion of teams. it's not that difficult for seismitoad to get a substitute either, considering it has great offensive typing to threaten rock- and ground-type pokemon and a good ground typing to keep stuff like rotom-a from freely using volt switch. the neat things that should be noted about seismitoad are its ability to freely set up on alomomola and most wartortle, and its ability to check carracosta and physical samurott fairly well, all thanks to water absorb. seismitoad also has a nice base 74 speed, which means it barely edges out ludicolo and samurott and can 2HKO or toxic both of them.

the choice between toxic and sludge wave is really a personal preference. sludge wave hits ludicolo and other grass-types straight off the bat, but a good chunk of common grass-types have some secondary typing that makes sludge wave quite useless (see: roselia, torterra). using sludge wave also means that seismitoad cannot do anything to specially defensive pokemon like lickilicky and audino. toxic makes it infinitely easier to wear down such special walls, while still being able to catch ludicolo on the switch to hamper its sweep.

seismitoad pairs well with pokemon that can check grass-types like roselia, tangela, and torterra. sawsbuck is a pretty cool option because of sap sipper and its insane power with life orb double-edge. fire-types, such as rapidash or camerupt, aren't bad teammates either.

[celever]

@ Choice specs
Ability: Doesn't really matter, let's be honest. I personally have a RU rain team using this set with swift swim, but on my laddering NU team, I run damp to stop skuntank's aftermath.
-Surf
-Ice beam
-Focus blast
-Hidden power grass

If you are looking for a great special finisher, Golduck is who you want. Golduck has great coverage, a good speed stat and a great special attack stat. It's arguably out-classed by gardevoir or something like charizard, but Golduck has such good coverage, such a powerful and well-typed STAB... it just deserves a place on any team, and is horribly underrated.

[Shuckleking87]

Tropius@Lum Berry
Harvest
252HP/4A/252+Speed
Dragon Dance
Aerial Ace
Seed Bomb
Rest

Alright, I know you will laugh, but this flying tree can do serious work (and is bar none the best non magic bounce or mirror coat counter to liepard). Max speed investment to at least get off one dragon dance before potentially resting. Lum berry will instacure sleep, and 50% chance to get berry back. 99/83/87 is ok, though it does have trouble with very common ice/rock/flying/fire(not as common) moves. Bulk Up Braviary is definitely a better set up flyer, but this set can do damage. Earthquake can fit on this set if you want, though even after a couple dd's, the damage output is not that impressive. Wouldn't recommend adament as it is very slow to begin with. Also note leaf blade and harvest are illegal. Fly is also an option over aerial ace

[Majestic Electric]

That Tropius set kinda confuses me. Why did you put 252 EVs into its HP when its supposed to be more offensively based? Even after a Dragon Dance, Tropius won't be fast enough to outspeed mons such as Sawk and Ludicolo, not to mention that it will fail to do significant damage since base 68 Attack is pretty bad. Giving it 252 Attack EVs would be better in order to do as much damage as possible, especially since the set lacks LO. Also, Aerial Ace is pretty weak. Sure, it doesn't miss, but Earthquake is far superior because it provides better overall coverage and has higher base power. The rest of the set seems fine to me.

The originality is cool and all, but like you said, Braviary is far better as a set-up sweeper. Ice-type moves are very common. Although it will cause serious damage to both, Tropius is still at a disadvantage due to being 4X weak instead of 2. I haven't used Tropius all that much but I find him to be better off as a defensive mon. Harvest may be good, but Chlorophyll is better overall for offensive sets since Tropius will get a speed boost plus it has Growth to raise its higher special attack stat.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat ium

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Hydro Pump
- Earth Power
- Toxic / Sludge Wave

i just wanted to clarify that toxic is by far the better option for the fourth moveslot, unless

1) you like trying to PP stall alomomola because you can't outdamage its wishes
2) you like to have alomomola pass free wishes around because you can't hurt it
3) you enjoy being set up on by dd altaria / cm musharna / anything
4) you feel like being PP stalled by any remotely bulky variant of braviary
5) you really REALLY can't handle ludicolo or really REALLY need it lured

also running max speed is neat, you get the edge on stuff like adamant sawk etc

[Shuckleking87]

Originally Posted by Fat Majestic Electric

That Tropius set kinda confuses me. Why did you put 252 EVs into its HP when its supposed to be more offensively based? Even after a Dragon Dance, Tropius won't be fast enough to outspeed mons such as Sawk and Ludicolo, not to mention that it will fail to do significant damage since base 68 Attack is pretty bad. Giving it 252 Attack EVs would be better in order to do as much damage as possible, especially since the set lacks LO. Also, Aerial Ace is pretty weak. Sure, it doesn't miss, but Earthquake is far superior because it provides better overall coverage and has higher base power. The rest of the set seems fine to me.

The originality is cool and all, but like you said, Braviary is far better as a set-up sweeper. Ice-type moves are very common. Although it will cause serious damage to both, Tropius is still at a disadvantage due to being 4X weak instead of 2. I haven't used Tropius all that much but I find him to be better off as a defensive mon. Harvest may be good, but Chlorophyll is better overall for offensive sets since Tropius will get a speed boost plus it has Growth to raise its higher special attack stat.

Never said that the set was really offensive, just that it is alot bulkier with the hp investment to take a couple hits. And I mean 99/83/87 is slightly better than 100/75/75 from braviary, so running a bulkier set works. Yeah, sure, the initial attacking power is a little weak, and I ran max attack max speed, but the ability to set up while taking hits easier makes it easier to accumulate more dd's.

Also, Tropius with +1 speed reaches 331, while Sawk reaches 295 with Timid (Adament CB is sawk's most popular set now) and Ludicolo is up to 262 with timid (Modest is again most popular). Without a dd boost, aerial ace will do 41-50% to sawk, which isnt that great against a pretty frail poke, but ice punch is the only reliable move that can OHKO, and with running a poke that is 4x weak to ice, it wouldn't be smart not to have an ice resist. Once again, with ludicolo, no dd boost aerial ace will do 42-50%. So it isnt great without a couple boosts. With max attack, aerial ace will initially do about 15% more. Which is alot, and may be preferable if you wish. Obviously Braviary will do more, but that is because Braviary is a top tier poke.

And what coverage do you mean that earthquake has over aerial ace? it has 10 more base power, true, and with earthquake, you will hit electric and steel types super effectively that seed bomb cannot do. Too bad steel isnt common at all and i would be scared of electrics to being with because they generally have ice coverage. Aerial ace Provide SE coverage against grass (Ludicolo), fighting (Sawk) and bug, which really isn't common. So I believe aerial ace is the better move. Unless I'm missing some overall coverage thing.

Of course Braviary is better, as having a far superior flying move and bulk up, as well as a good speed to pull off choice sets are some reasons why it is superior to Tropius. Yes, ice is a weak point, but it can also take water, electric, grass and fighting types attacks alot better than Tropius, which are common moves and is good enough to use on a semi-serious team. And it also takes status 1124840198x better than braviary. Which is an added bonus.

[Majestic Electric]

Originally Posted by Fat Shuckleking87

Never said that the set was really offensive, just that it is alot bulkier with the hp investment to take a couple hits. And I mean 99/83/87 is slightly better than 100/75/75 from braviary, so running a bulkier set works. Yeah, sure, the initial attacking power is a little weak, and I ran max attack max speed, but the ability to set up while taking hits easier makes it easier to accumulate more dd's.

While accumulating more DD's is good overall, keep in mind that Tropius still can't pull off enough damage without max attack. Like I said, base 68 attack is just...bad. And there are many Pokemon that will give it a run for its money. Lairon, Probopass, and Bastiodon come to my mind since they have very high bulk (Lairon especially on the physical side).

Originally Posted by Fat Shuckleking87

Also, Tropius with +1 speed reaches 331, while Sawk reaches 295 with Timid (Adament CB is sawk's most popular set now) and Ludicolo is up to 262 with timid (Modest is again most popular)

I think you meant Jolly for Sawk. Timid lowers its attack. And Ludicolo's most popular set I believe is LO SS with a Timid nature. In this case, Ludicolo can outspeed since Timid + SS let's it outrun nearly every mon in NU.

Originally Posted by Fat Shuckleking87

And what coverage do you mean that earthquake has over aerial ace? it has 10 more base power, true, and with earthquake, you will hit electric and steel types super effectively that seed bomb cannot do. Too bad steel isnt common at all and i would be scared of electrics to being with because they generally have ice coverage. Aerial ace Provide SE coverage against grass (Ludicolo), fighting (Sawk) and bug, which really isn't common. So I believe aerial ace is the better move. Unless I'm missing some overall coverage thing.

Along with Electric-types, Earthquake lets Tropius deal huge damage to Rock, Steel (Bastiodon and Probopass are somewhat common btw), Poison, and Fire-types, too. Aerial Ace may provide SE damage against Bugs, but nearly every bug in NU is part Flying, so they can be kept at bay with Stealth Rock. Being able to hurt Fightings and oppossing Grass-types is nice, but Earthquake seems more beneficial imo because it hits more stuff.

[Shuckleking87]

Originally Posted by Fat Majestic Electric

While accumulating more DD's is good overall, keep in mind that Tropius still can't pull off enough damage without max attack. Like I said, base 68 attack is just...bad. And there are many Pokemon that will give it a run for its money. Lairon, Probopass, and Bastiodon come to my mind since they have very high bulk (Lairon especially on the physical side).

Sure, more attack investment will make it more powerful, yet it will not be living as many moves. Depends on your preference. Also, Lairon (109, 1.35%) Probopass (43, 4.58%) and Bastiodon (35, 5.66%) are not that common, and will be hit neutrally with seed bomb. Only thing Bastiodon can really do is roar or stone edge (14.15% of bastiodon, 52 base attack, 37-45%, easy to pp stall). Probopass can Power gem (55.6% of probopass, 49-58%, will probably win 1 on 1). Lairon can destroy with head smash. Too bad jolly max attack tropius needs +4 to kill lairon with earthquake, as the physically defensive set is the most popular, and is not that popular to begin with. However, using flying types against rock and steel types is obviously a stupid idea to begin with, as bulk up braviary and all physical flyers barring dodrio cannot touch these. Putting EQ just to handle these doesnt really cut it for mer, though it can be used.

Originally Posted by Fat Majestic Electric

I think you meant Jolly for Sawk. Timid lowers its attack. And Ludicolo's most popular set I believe is LO SS with a Timid nature. In this case, Ludicolo can outspeed since Timid + SS let's it outrun nearly every mon in NU.

Correct, jolly sawk. Though timid is used 10% compared to 59% for modest. And since it can run almost all of nu under rain, that statement really doesn't prove much.

Originally Posted by Fat Majestic Electric

Along with Electric-types, Earthquake lets Tropius deal huge damage to Rock, Steel (Bastiodon and Probopass are somewhat common btw), Poison, and Fire-types, too. Aerial Ace may provide SE damage against Bugs, but nearly every bug in NU is part Flying, so they can be kept at bay with Stealth Rock. Being able to hurt Fightings and oppossing Grass-types is nice, but Earthquake seems more beneficial imo because it hits more stuff.

Rocks are super effective from seed bomb, bastiodon and probopass appear in about 1/20 games, and that are what fighting types like sawk (most common poke) are for, poison can be handled by aerial ace (though not as well, skuntank, haunter, garbodor, roselia and weezing are only poisons in the top 50, and aerial ace hits all but skuntank and garbodor harder) and fire types are hit neutral be aerial ace (though earthquake will hit harder, and charizard, torkoal and rapidash are only nu and not pu fire pokes). Grass pokes aren't ideal for handling fires either way, and cannot touch charizard with eq. There are 10 grass and/or fighting pokes out of 62 nu pokes, so i will take that, though eq can be used.

[Dracoyoshi8]

Gardevoir @ Mind Plate
Trait: Trace
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Signal Beam / Hidden Power Ground
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind / Taunt

This set function as something of a wallbreaker. With Psychic and Psyshock, both being further boosted by Mind Plate, Gardevoir can hit both physical behemoths like Torterra as well as special behemoths like Regice for great damage. Signal Beam puts the hurt on other Psychic-types and Dark-types while Hidden Power Ground hits Skuntank and Probopass for heavy damage. Calm Mind is preferable as it allows Gardevoir to decimate slower teams and the sturdiest walls, although Taunt can be used to further Gardevoir's wallbusting abilities. You can use Taunt alongside both Psychic-type moves and Calm Mind, but this can leave you wide open to Skuntank.

[Zebraiken*]

so i was fucking around a little bit with some mons that i really like and that i felt weren't really appreciated in NU, and i pulled a couple of really interesting sets out of it. i'm not going to share all of them right now but one of my favorites is what i came up with for shiftry. in general, shiftry hasn't been explored or used very often at all; i'm quite sure that the current analysis for it is just speculation, considering that none of the sets are really very effective at all, given how impossible it really is to set up with shiftry. sure it can probably set up on alomomola, but cacturne does that better thanks to water absorb and has higher attacking stats to do so. shiftry is a bit faster but that has minimal importance when we're talking about sucker punch as a main STAB.

one thing that really struck out to me is how perfectly shiftry's offensive stats work out for it. it sits at base 80 speed which is just enough to outspeed or tie most of the relevant "bulky offense" threats, like samurott and ludicolo, and has quite good offenses on both sides. dark + grass is also pretty solid coverage and it has the potential to 2HKO a lot of the metagame, or at least significantly weaken the checks and counters to another threat. SO



shiftry @ life orb
early bird / chlorophyll, whichever you like better
hasty nature (+spe -def)
4 atk / 252 spa / 252 spe
- leaf storm
- dark pulse
- nature power
- explosion

shiftry is neat because it's relatively unknown (at least to some degree) so people don't actually have any idea what it's meant to do until it does it. leaf storm and dark pulse are the obvious stab moves; i've used giga drain and i found it kind of subpar. the spa lowering part of leaf storm is actually also really nice to lure in special walls like regice / lickilicky and boom on them. the other cool thing about boom shiftry is that its stab moves really really discourage anything that could reliably take an explosion (ghosts, rocks, steels) from actually staying in on it. of course you have to use a little bit of prediction in order to actually target the right mon with your explosion, since you've only got one shot at it. for that reason i've considered using substitute over nature power or something (depending on how well you deal with skuntank + probopass), because more often than not it'll bring in those kinds of pokemon and you can more easily be assured that they'll stay in and not try to double switch. people also suggested that i use sucker punch > explosion which IMO is dumb but you can do that if you're a weenie.

shiftry dissects slow and bulky teams rather easily, especially with hazard support. on the other hand, it struggles mightily with offensive teams since a lot of pokemon outspeed it still and it doesn't have the ability to take -any- kind of hit. sucker punch helps it somewhat with that but really i just prefer to use it on bulkier teams that can handle offense but need a way to punch through everything else. it's really not the set for everyone but if you're interested in something different then i'd give shiftry a look :)

flcl edit: im not a weenie >:(

[FLCL]

Rotom-Frost @ Expert Belt
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Will-O-Wisp

this set smashes teams that rely on prediction with pokemon such as golem to or alomomola to check rotom-f. people usually expect the choice scarf set, allowing you to catch the opponent by surprise when you suddenly switch moves on them. even piloswine, which takes pitiful damage from all of rotom-f's attacks, can be beaten with will-o-wisp as it attempts to absorb your volt switch. this set is best paired up with pokemon that enjoy ground-type pokemon—rotom-f's main targets—gone. candidates include arbok, regirock, or skuntank.

[Zebraiken*]

it's also worth mentioning that you can (and probably should) run an unconventional scarf pokemon along with that set in order to help check faster stuff like scarf rotom-a normally does, like sash kadabra, charizard, simipour, +2 gorebyss, and even sawsbuck. a lot of pokemon that make the most out of expert belt rotom-f are naturally somewhat slow, so it's important to ensure that you've got fast stuff covered, since you're forgoing one of the most reliable scarfers in the tier and using it as a lure. plus it's nice to switch things up and catch people off-guard once in a while with silly things like scarf raichu.

[EBeast]

Wow I really like that Shiftry set, Zeb. I used something similar to it on a really old Sunny Day team, except I used something else over Explosion. Since the set lures in Pokemon like Roselia and Regice to Explode on, pairing it with something like Samurott could be very effective. With Nature Power it can also deal pretty good damage on Skuntank, who is given a false sense of security due to resisting Shiftry's STABs. (Leaf Storm still does a good 48-57%) Haunter + Shiftry sounds like it could be fun to try out.

[TyranoWins]

Persian @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
Ev's: 252 atk / 252 speed / 4 HP
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Last Resort
-
-

I know this is more for fun, but it can still work. Fake Out boosted by Technician does decent damage (~40% to Sawk and Rotom, the most used scarfers in the tier), and if you are faster than your rival, you can use Last Resort to finish it (140 base hit power hits hard), for example, both Alomomola and Musharna take +50% from Fake Out + Last Resort. As Persian is fast enough, you can use it Adamant (it reaches 262 atk and 329 speed) to maximize damage. The bad part is that it can't touch ghosts, but still with spikes support and without ghost, it can be a great finisher.

[Punchshroom]

If you're going to try that (not that it's completely viable), at least use Silk Scarf which boosts all your (two) attacks instead of stripping off at least 20% just to get that first kill. Yes, I know that Persian needs all the power it can get, but between hazards, priority and LO, you won't get far when you actually do get going.

[Sweet Jesus]

So, it's been a while since I've posted anything here. I was testing a team when my bro ala randomly toxiced my musharna on the switch. I then realized it was actually pretty cool for the following reasons. (Nothing incredible but a nice answer to mushy)


Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch
- Toxic

Standard gurdurr really, but with some sort of an answer to it's most common switch-in, musharna. Gurdurr really isn't as good as it used too with it's greatest counter being just everywhere, but musharna being everywhere also led mushy to run signal beam over heal bell pretty often and those who do run heal bell are much easier to wall. Toxic will not only cripples musharna making it much harder for it to come in as often, but will also toxic your own gurdurr because of synchronoize. While this is usualy a bad thing, gurdurr loves the fact toxic activates it's guts. Mushy is then easier to kill, removing your opponent's main gurdurr counter while gurdurr becomes a great late game sweeper thanks to the guts boost.
Toxic will also cripple other walls like tangela and alomomola that could also come in. You do let garbo set up spikes for free and can't set up on weezing either but both sometimes carry clear smog anyway.

[Treecko37]

I feel like using Toxic on offensive threats is incredibly underrated. I used to run Toxic on LO Mienshao in UU because there are some things that even HJK can't manage to pick off (read: Slowbro). There are certain situations where using Toxic on an offensive Pokemon can really help to wittle down the HP of a Pokemon that is walling it completely so that it can clean up later with that threat not being able to stop it in its tracks.

There is a Butterfree set that I really like which I never see in spite of its potential.



Butterfree (M) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Compoundeyes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Sleep Powder
- Stun Spore
- U-turn
- Roost/Bug Buzz

This set is used for a nice scouting/statusing lead that really helps hyper offensive teams gain early momentum. Obviously, the point of the set is to lead off with Butterfree, put something to sleep (which is incredibly easy to do with Compoundeyes, making Sleep Powder and Stun Spore both 97.5% accurate), possibly Stun Spore if you feel a switch is coming, and U-Turn out into the best answer to whatever Pokemon is out at the time. Butterfree doesn't care about Stealth Rocks because its purpose is not to switch in and out all the time. If you can manage to bring it back in after killing off the opponent's sleeping Pokemon and get off another status, that is fantastic, but you should not expect this to happen in most scenarios. Usually, after gaining solid momentum early game, its last use is going to be switching into it for death fodder to allow another free switch.

I haven't seen this set used much, but it is surprisingly effective. Like I said, its home is hyper offensive based teams because the Pokemon slot being used on Butterfree on a hyper offensive team is totally worth it. When you put another Pokemon to sleep, you are effectively dropping the score to 5-5 from the very beginning. This hurts your opponent far more than it hurts you because your loss of a Pokemon gave you early game momentum to allow you to apply offensive pressure very early on, while your opponent gains nothing from a sleeping Pokemon the vast majority of the time.

Of course, Sap Sipper Pokemon cause issues to this strategy, so if you see Sawsbuck on the opponent's team and it does not appear to be a Sun team, it's smart to either U-Turn on turn one or to choose an entirely different lead. Opposing Miltank can be risky as they may carry Sap Sipper, but since most Miltank do not carry this ability, it is typically fairly safe to play as usual.

Overall, I think Butterfree is an underrated Pokemon in NU. While it may not be an offensive powerhouse without Quiver Dance, the support role it can provide to a team can be instrumental in securing a win. I have tried to tamper around with other Pokemon who may be better suited for this role, but I still have yet to find anything.

[Sweet Jesus]

Ever thought of using the pokemon you're weak to to cover your weakness to it ? Most of the time it's a mediocre solution, but what if you used a slightly different poke ? Hopefully this post will give golduck a bit more than it's mediocre samy-simi-average reputation. I present to you samurott 2.0.


Golduck @ Life Orb
Trait: Cloud Nine
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Mild Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Aqua Jet/signal beam/hypnosis

Mild nature is + sp.a - def, but you can also run modest if you don't plan to use aqua jet.
The point of this set is to imitate samurott but still outspeed max 70's (and standard adamant skunk) so you can actually outspeed samurott and ludicolo. With a nature that boosts it's sp.a, golduck actually reaches 2 more sp.a points than timid samurott and still outspeeds him by a couple of points. This can let you come in on a hydro pump or ice beam and retalliate with the same coverage and just a little more speed (and power). The pros of this set come with a cost however, the three main being: no megahorn, easier to predict (physical/special) less physical bulk and no torrent. Golduck still has notable abitlities in swift swim and cloud nine (even damp can be used with the rise of custap golem lead). His 2 main abilties will let him outspeed ludi even when rain is up. Now just like samurott, golduck is wrecked by giga drain and while he can't threaten the megahorn ohko, he doesn't have to rely on a speed tie to finish off ludi with signal beam. Golduck might be easier to predict but he can also fake outspeedin base 80's which samurott can't. The physical bulk is not as good, but it's not that bad (especialy if you run modest) and the whole point of using golduck over rott is take on rott and ludi anyways. Note that cloud nine with just a bit more speed than base 70's also let's him wreck the rare sun sweeper victreebel and can acutally make golduck a good water type to use on a sun team.

The last move is up to the user and what fits better with the team. Aqua jet brings decent priority he can use in the same way as the similar samurott set, signal beam is for ludi and hypnosis can always prove useful and bypasses skuntank's sucker punch (since unlike rott, golduck outspeeds the standard set). Golduck has a lot of other niche moves that can be used with a little originality.

[Punchshroom]

Yeah, I've pondered the possiblity of Golduck capable of luring Samurott's counters and checks and weaken them (Golduck is usually too weak to finish off the threat on its own), but really, can't Simipour who is slightly stronger and MUCH faster accomplish the same thing? In fact, there can be cases where it is Samurott weakening counters and checks for Simipour to sweep, while Golduck's stats are just too weak to achieve the kinds of sweeps and success Samurott does (85 base speed for those defenses? Nuh-uh.). Simipour can also boost its stats, unlike Golduck, with Nasty Plot and/or Gluttony + pinch berries AND has Torrent to boot for emergency hard-hitting. Granted, Golduck isn't that bad at its job, but why use this over Simipour?

[Sweet Jesus]

I don't really see the point about simi boosting it's stats and having a different speed tier, I'm suggesting to use golduck over samurott, not simi. Your post explains why standard simi should be used over standard golduck in general, but it doesn't even consider what this slightly different set is about. With modest nature golduck reaches about the same stats as samurott except for it's physical defence (it has less hp but more sp.d to make up for it on that side). If you read my explanation, you'll understand that with + sp.a nature golduck acheives about the same as special samurott but with enough speed to outspeed samurott and ludi. The point is not to lure in samurott counters but to use golduck over samurott on your team.

If you argue simipour outclasses this set, you should check simi's defences as well as it's usage compared to samurott's, the poke this set is meant to compete with. Cloud nine and swift swim also have their utility.

Sure simi accomplishes a bit better offensively, but I'm not susggesting to use golduck over him, I'm suggesting to use golduck over samurott who is chosen over simi for his better bulk and access to megahorn and aqua jet. Now golduck lacks megahorn, but I've listed some reasons to sometimes use it over samurott depending on your team's needs in the previous post.

[Punchshroom]

I made the comparison between Simipour and Golduck due to the fact that they rely on the good speed (well for Golduck it's merely above average) to function well, as their low bulk means they do not take kindly to neutral hits unlike Samurott (ex: support Armaldo's X-Scissor). The fact that you're comparing Golduck to Samurott is just...I don't even know what to say. Well a lot of things actually.

The point of this set is to imitate samurott but still outspeed max 70's (and standard adamant skunk) so you can actually outspeed samurott and ludicolo. With a nature that boosts it's sp.a, golduck actually reaches 2 more sp.a points than timid samurott and still outspeeds him by a couple of points.

Golduck's main advantage over Samurott is its ability to outrun base 80s, regardless of their nature. The very slight boost in power and speed matters little if positive base 80s will still annihilate you. If Samurott isn't running a nature that boosts offense, it will be boosting speed, which still puts it above neutral base 80s, meaning Golduck's advantage over Samurott is moot and results in noticeably less bulk.

If you argue simipour outclasses this set, you should check simi's defences as well as it's usage compared to samurott's, the poke this set is meant to compete with.

My argument compared Simipour's usefulness to Golduck, not Samurott. It still has advantages over Samurott, namely its fantastic speed, but so far my thoughts in terms of reliability are Samurott>Simipour>Golduck.

I'm suggesting to use golduck over samurott who is chosen over simi for his better bulk and access to megahorn and aqua jet

I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this. Are you trying to imply that Golduck is chosen over Samurott because Samurott has Megahorn and Aqua Jet which Simipour does not have? What does Simipour have to do with comparing Golduck and Samurott?

you'll understand that with + sp.a nature golduck acheives about the same as special samurott but with enough speed to outspeed samurott and ludi. The point is not to lure in samurott counters but to use golduck over samurott on your team.

Yes I'm aware of that, but Golduck does not fare any better against opposing Samurott than your own Samurott, while Samurott can destroy Ludicolo with Megahorn should it win the speed tie (most Ludis run Modest anyway). While Golduck always outspeeds Ludi, it still loses one-on-one simply because unSTABed Signal Beam isn't doing much to Ludicolo's better defense, and any damage Signal Beam did would be healed off by Giga Drain anyway. Yes it can revenge weakened Ludicolo, but that is easier said than done against an opponent with recovery and/or has demolished your team by the time you get it low enough.

Cloud nine and swift swim also have their utility

Against what? Golduck is beaten down by Sawsbuck and Ludicolo, two of the most common weather sweepers in the tier. What's that, Victreebel and Gorebyss? A Scarf Simipour can revenge kill them regardless (including Smashed Gorebyss, which Duck is helpless against), and has much more utility with fast Hydro Pumps than the ability to neuter weather only when in battle.


Really, the main turnoffs to using Golduck compared to Samurott and/or Simipour are

no megahorn

This is a pretty big deal. The ability to OHKO Ludi, a Water-type's worst nightmare and keep it at bay is what makes Samurott much more difficult to deal with. Ludi only has to worry about not coming in on Golduck's Signal Beam and threaten a OHKO.

no torrent

Samurott and Simipour can have extra emergency power which Golduck can't dish out (not to mention it's the weakest amongst the three), meaning Golduck can't hit any harder than it already does.

easier to predict

Its one-dimensionality is a big issue. Samurott's different sets have radically different counters: you can't revenge kill SD Samurott with ease, while Tangela and Alomo worry about specially oriented sets. Simipour can run NP sets that have both wallbreaking and sweeping potential, while its Choice Sets are good because it has arguably the best mix of initial power and speed among all NU Water-types. Golduck....isn't that good of a Samurott wannabe. Special walls like Regice, Lickilicky and Mantine have no second thoughts about switching in, and unless Golduck runs something like Cross Chop (Samurott has Superpower as that nail in the coffin), Golduck has no real way of getting past these threats or surprising them. Samurott 2.0? More like Samurott 0.7.

That said, I retract my statement about Golduck not having boosting moves, completely forgetting about Calm Mind. Golduck's usable speed can actually make this viable, as well as its access to Encore (Samurott has it too, what a dick XD). Really, as opposed to try to copy some of the other Water-types, Golduck should try to make use of what is unique to it and hopefully, establish a better niche for itself. Golduck's isn't bad, but if it can't differentiate itself from the numerous Water-types in NU, don't expect it to see much use.