Doubles (3rd Topic in #899!)

[Skore]

Helping Hand is also a viable move choice for both Cresselia and Hitmontop (if you choose to use it) considering both Ninetales and Heatran will be using powerful spread moves under Sun and it can help the rest of your team turn 2HKO's into 1HKO's.

My other question is: How often do you find yourself using Sludge Bomb on Venusaur?

[youngjake93]

I prefer Heat Wave on Hydreigon and well.. most things. Under sun it is 225 total base power for Heat Wave and 142 for Flamethrower. Plus you don't have to worry about predicting Protects or switches to fire resists and you can finish something off+start damaging something else at the same time.
I could see running Fire Blast, the only real benefit to Flamethrower is not giving a second STAB to Heatran+Chandelure. The minute increase in accuracy and single-target damage isn't really worth it imo.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat JulioMD

I have been tinkering with a Sun team a bit. It seems rather standard and I think the only remarkable thing I have is using Sableye for Gravity support to be able to spam Will-O-Wisp and have a sure-hit Sleep Power. But from what I've played the team overall hasn't been able to pull it's weight, more specifically Hariyama and Heatran and sometimes Cresselia, although that's probably me not being able to use it's set properly.

I really like the Sableye/Ninetales/Venusaur thing I have going, and it has worked pretty well so far, but the other half of the team is so-so and I'd appreciate some advice on how to change my team for the better. I was thinking on trying at least one more Gravity user and more Pokemon with moves that mix well with it to be able to abuse it fully but I haven't gone too deep into it.

...

---

Ninetales (F) @ Iron Ball Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Heat Wave
- Will-O-Wisp
- Energy Ball
- Protect


Hariyama (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Guts
EVs: 216 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SDef / 92 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Cross Chop
- Fake Out
- Rock Slide
- Wide Guard


Sableye (M) @ Lagging Tail
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Gravity
- Taunt


Venusaur (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SAtk / 188 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Protect


Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind


Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Try running Lilligant over Venusaur, with a spread of Modest 76 SpA, 252 Speed, and the rest in HP with Giga Drain/Sleep Powder/Quiver Dance(or Stun Spore)/Protect and give it a Lum Berry. It outspeeds Venusaur, and has a higher base Special Attack (110), and is almost as bulky.

[thecrowing2k8]

is it worth running shadow ball over psychic on gardevoir?
I'm using a set with telepathy, and imprision/trick room/ helping hand/ attacking move. I use it to screw over Reuniclus, but is there other trick room mons worth hitting using Shadow Ball instead of Psychic?

[Skore]

Originally Posted by Fat thecrowing2k8

is it worth running shadow ball over psychic on gardevoir?
I'm using a set with telepathy, and imprision/trick room/ helping hand/ attacking move. I use it to screw over Reuniclus, but is there other trick room mons worth hitting using Shadow Ball instead of Psychic?

All of them?

They're either ghost or psychic types therefore Shadow Ball will cover you no matter which ones they use.

[Bent1ey]

Technically speaking Porygon2 has no trouble at all with Shadow Ball, but I'm not sure anyone would run that as a TR settler.

I don't exactly see how that Gardevoir stays alive without Protect though.

[Firestorm]

Originally Posted by Fat thecrowing2k8

is it worth running shadow ball over psychic on gardevoir?
I'm using a set with telepathy, and imprision/trick room/ helping hand/ attacking move. I use it to screw over Reuniclus, but is there other trick room mons worth hitting using Shadow Ball instead of Psychic?

Why not use Musharna instead?

[Pocket]

I don't see much point in killing Trick Room setters, since Imprison already renders them dead-weight. You also have a partner that can kill the TR setter, too.

I do agree with Firestorm that I'd use Musharna over Gardevoir. For either Gardevoir or Musharna I'd use Psychic - Protect - Trick Room - Imprison.

[Darkmalice]

You can also use Cofagrigus over Gardevoir if you really want to use Shadow Ball. Gardevoir is a pretty bad Imprison user; it's not as bulky as other Imprison users. And you really should not be giving up its STAB for Shadow Ball for other TR users when you have Imprison and can reverse opposing TR with your own TR.

[HabibsHotDogs]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9512798

Finally found the ideal solarbeam partner for sunny day whimsicott! I've tried a variety of pokemon.. Infernape cannot ohko politoed and takes heavy damage from surfs whilst grass types scare out politoed or bait protects..

Grass gem gives Volcarona the ohko on most politoed whilst sunny day nerfs double surf offenses. The best part is its rare for a politoed to switch out or protect against the two. I'll post the next replay I have with these two verse rain.

The replay above is misleading but it shows the viability of a Volcarona with 3 high powered attacks.

[Mr.E]

Having Shadow Ball on Gardevoir and its Trick Rooming friends isn't the worst plan on an Imprison set, since it also protects them from stuff like Chandelure and whatnot, though not getting OHKOed before you get the Imprison off could be a chore. ;[ I would say you don't need an attacking move if you're also using Helping Hand though. What matters is that your mon has some way to contribute damage and while there are slightly different advantages comparing Helping Hand to a direct attack, they're redundant enough that there are probably better uses of a moveslot than running both (NAMELY PROTECT).

[Pocket]

Hm good points Darkmalice and Mr.E. I somehow totally forgot about Chandelure lol i'm a noob.

Habibs, that was a cool game ;d I still prefer Quiver Dance, though. Sunny Day Whimsicott still offers QD Volcarona awesome support though, since +1 Heat Wave in the Sun would hurt!

Also initiating our first Topic of the Week! Contribute to the discussion of this topic to earn a point; earn double by being the best best poster concerning this topic! Feel free to talk about subject outside of TotW; this is just an alternative discussion that people can enjoy here:

Topic of the Week #1: Leftovers

Leftovers is one of the most common item in Singles ever since items were introduced in GSC. However, does Leftovers have a place in Smogon Doubles???

Here are some guiding questions:

~ What qualities should a Pokemon possess to make the most use of Leftovers in Doubles?

~ Provide a moveset with Leftovers

~ Is Sitrus Berry Leftovers of Smogon Doubles? When does Leftovers outweigh the immediate 25% recovery of Sitrus Berry?

[youngjake93]

The main benefit for Leftovers imo is a situation like this:
You are up against Cresselia+Kyu-B. Kyu-B knocks out one of your Pokemon while Cress uses Psychic on the other for ~25% damage. Then, Leftovers takes you just barely out of KO range for Kyu-B. Sitrus Berry wouldn't have helped, Kyu-B didn't need you below 50%. Hazards and passive weather damage can make the difference, so can Leftovers.

Then, there are the obvious other reasons. 4 turn survival is the break-even point and many highly used mons like Cress, Top, Toed CAN survive 4 turns pretty easily if that's what you're going for. Bulky offense is good and such teams like Leftovers. Protect and Fake Out are used to waste turns by you AND your opponent. That gives more recovery turns. It reactivates Sturdy and MultiScale. It isn't cancelled by Unnerve, Pluck, Incinerate, whatever. If you are tricked before Sitrus Berry would have activated, Leftovers would have still provided SOME benefit(maybe 2 turns of healing before being tricked).

However, I believe that Hyper Offense is about equal(maybe a little higher) than Bulky Offense right now. Anything with a gameplan to set-up Tail Wind/Screens/TR/Hazards and blow up/dish out high damage and die would benefit significantly more from Sitrus Berry.

Here is an optimal set for Leftovers.

Togekiss (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Air Slash
- Follow Me/Support Move

The support move can be Safeguard, Heal Bell, Tail Wind, Helping Hand, Protect, Wish, Yawn, Growl, but I generally prefer Follow Me.
The big special bulk absorbs a lot of hits when using Follow Me and ParaFlinch hax+Roost ensure 4+ turn survivability.

[BlankZero]

I love me some leftovers. Everyone knows my Ferrothorn and even my Cress and Tales run it with bulk and protect. Cresselia is often the only thing I see getting Sitrus, and that's due to the Item Clause of VGC. If not for that, Cress has so much bulk that 6% back a turn seems better to me than a 1 time 25%.

Now, if you're running a more Attacking type Cress without the extra bulk EVs, Sitrus has a place over Lefties, but usually those sets are better off running a ChestoRest set.

[The Exeggutor]

Bulky pokmemon should be the only pokemon running leftovers, and usually only follow me/rage powder users at that. In a meta like this with such bulky pokemon like cresselia, sitrus berry or even a chesto berry works better to prolong the longevity of their life. I don't think Leftovers is a viable option at all. there is far to many better choices to me

[Rayquaza_]

Kyurem-B is pretty much the only viable offensive Imprison user in the metagame right now (except maybe Chandelure, but Chandy usually has room for only one offensive move on an Imprison set), as it learns Blizzard and Rock Slide, arguably the most reliable spread attacks.
Rock Slide is notably the only spread move Kyu-B is weak to, making it useful against the predictable Terrakion switch in.
The fourth move is a bit tricky since Kyu-B loves its Dragon STAB as well as Fusion Bolt, but Imprison+Protect is usually too good to pass up.

You can potentially stop any team that relies on spread attacks with Imprison Kyu-B (who also resists Discharge, Surf and Muddy Water) and something like Gastrodon (Discharge, Surf and Muddy Water immunities + Heat Wave resistance).

You don't even need a dedicated team to do that, as it only takes two team slots. Definitely something to keep in mind.

[Ex three Em]

What's the opinion on stockpile users in doubles? There is a lack of toxic users since most of the usual pokemon who'd carry it can't spare the moveslot, so they can stockpile a couple times then heal then eventually wear down the opponents.
I've seen quite a number of Gastrodon, Hippowdon, and Cradily carrying it (unkillable in sand), and I'm basically relying on a crit to kill them after a few stockpiles. I tend to taunt those members but not everyone can taunt, or is able to spare the moveslot. My other way is to focus aim the stockpiler's partner and hopefully get a crit to kill it later.

[Carl]

On the subject of Leftovers, you might actually find it better to have a Sitrus Berry on a Follow Me/Rage Powder pokemon instead. The FM/RP user is put into a lot of situations where it takes 2 attacks on the same turn and, depending on those attacks, can be 2HKO'ed. Sitrus Berry activates during the turn as soon as dropping down below 50% so you'd be effectively turning a 2HKO into a 3HKO on the spot... surviving for another turn to redirect attacks. I generally prefer Sitrus Berry on Togekiss because of this.

[Audiosurfer]

I think Leftovers is generally inferior to Sitrus Berry for the reasons Carl listed. The instant 25% boost is very useful to survive attacks. However, I think that Leftovers can be more useful for Pokemon using the move Substitute, since it lets them constantly heal as opposed to the one off time with Sitrus Berry. Here's a moveset I thought up that could make use of it:

Abomasnow @ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 HP / 84 SDef / 172 Def
Calm Nature
- Blizzard
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect

This lets Abomasnow gain health constantly while not being subject to weather residual damage since it summons hail, which it's immune to. Blizzard is used to dispatch Grass types that are immune to Leech Seed while also killing Flying types that would threaten it. Giga Drain can be used for more healing. 84 SDef EVs are to prevent a Cresselia's Psychic from breaking its subs (assuming it has no SAtk investment), with the rest dumped in Defense to help it take physical attacks better. While the 84 EVs let it set up on Cresselia assuming a nonSDef enhancing nature, a Calm nature is still chosen to let it act as a better check to Rain teams, and to give it similar levels of bulk on both sides. An alternate spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef can be used to allow it to take assaults from rain even better, but it would come at the cost of its physical bulk.

[Pwnemon]

Leftovers is good on any pokemon that you expect to be on the field, tanking hits, for more than four turns. There are not many Pokemon like that, but when you consider that if you give your Pokemon protect, it only needs to be a tank for two turns; if you give your Pokemon Helping Hand, it probably doesn't even need to tank anything; and if you give it bulk investment instead of offense investment, it doesn't care about a power boosting item;

then you realize I'm talking about Politoed, the only thing I've ever liked running Leftovers on.

Politoed @ Leftovers
Bold
Drizzle
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Hydro Pump
-icy Wind
-Helping Hand
-Protect

This guy easily survives 7-8 turns when I need him to, packs a punch when i need him to (on neutral water types only), supports his mates when i need him to... Toed is a great supporter. And Leftovers is of more use on him than Sitrus because he's taking continual slow damage, instead of tanking one or two hits. I guess the relationship could best be summarized in "Sitrus for Tanks, Lefties for Walls;" and though there aren't many walls left in a doubles meta, those that are there still love this item.

[Skore]

Ok, as much as the accuracy boost is awesome, perhaps the best thing about Gravity is using it then watching people that don't know what it does Earthquake their own team to death.

[HabibsHotDogs]

There's quite a few viable leftovers holders, for example water absorb pokemon with surf teammates can viably last multiple turns in order to justify using leftovers, I'll be doing a feature piece on one of my favourite doubles pokemon that can do really well to support its team with leftovers shortly! Preparing it now.

[NidoJosh]

Personally.. I believe that every weather starter should be running leftovers. In the Smogon Doubles Metagame it is hugely important to rule the weather to allow for your abusers to function properly and to effectively limit your opponents' weather abusers.
I am currently running sand on one account and rain on the other and I use Leftovers on both weather starters just to ensure that extra longevity and recover with protect when needed

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

There's quite a few viable leftovers holders, for example water absorb pokemon with surf teammates can viably last multiple turns in order to justify using leftovers, I'll be doing a feature piece on one of my favourite doubles pokemon that can do really well to support its team with leftovers shortly! Preparing it now.

I'd just like to say firstly that I haven't been using the Surf + Water Absorb strategy (at this stage anyway..) but personally I believe that perhaps Life Orb would be a more effective item choice. Why? Because you are already getting the recovery from your team mate in surf and this allows you to hit like a truck and effectively negate the LO recoil + receive some extra HP recovery. Or even Scarf Water Spout Jellicent could benefit from receiving the HP recovery to supercharge its Water Spouts. I can't really see any/many instances where Water Absorb + Leftovers will be favourable over LO/Scarf/Specs/Band etc

[Pwnemon]

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles9567433

one of the most interesting, and close, battles I've had in a while.

[Level 51]

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles9568866

This may not be quite as cool as Pwnemon's battle, but it nonetheless shows at least that the ladder is better than RU's haha
It also shows that you can win after a double freeze lol~