Doubles (New Topic - EV benchmarks!)

[HabibsHotDogs]

Finally had a rain team to verse:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9573657

SunnyBeam is incredibly viable in doubles

edit: second politoed fucked me over in 1 turn thanks to protect...

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9574572

edit 2 : Holy sheet this game was exciting for me

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9579465

[nyttyn]

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

Leftovers is good on any pokemon that you expect to be on the field, tanking hits, for more than four turns. There are not many Pokemon like that, but when you consider that if you give your Pokemon protect, it only needs to be a tank for two turns; if you give your Pokemon Helping Hand, it probably doesn't even need to tank anything; and if you give it bulk investment instead of offense investment, it doesn't care about a power boosting item;

then you realize I'm talking about Politoed, the only thing I've ever liked running Leftovers on.

Politoed @ Leftovers
Bold
Drizzle
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Hydro Pump
-icy Wind
-Helping Hand
-Protect

This guy easily survives 7-8 turns when I need him to, packs a punch when i need him to (on neutral water types only), supports his mates when i need him to... Toed is a great supporter. And Leftovers is of more use on him than Sitrus because he's taking continual slow damage, instead of tanking one or two hits. I guess the relationship could best be summarized in "Sitrus for Tanks, Lefties for Walls;" and though there aren't many walls left in a doubles meta, those that are there still love this item.

Pwnemon I would much rather run Sitrus Berry or an Iron Ball on that set. You aren't going to be staying in nearly long enough for lefties to be worthwhile with both Politoed's bulk and the fact that it needs to keep swapping in and out, and the fact that the enemy is likely to try and just flat out kill the frog rather then worry about it staying around to cause mayhem since Toed's power is something to be feared.

Also, why not run Scald over Hydro Pump on a set like that? It still has great power while giving you a decent chance at some burn hax while removing the chance to be misshax'd by hydro miss.

[HabibsHotDogs]

Heres a little feature piece on one of my most liked support pokemon, it is rather unique as it has convenient immunities and resistances as well as a move pool that sets it apart from other support/tank pokemon such as Cresselia and Gastrodon.



Mantine

Pros & Cons
+Lasts long
+Great support move pool
+Anti weather immunities
+Easy to partner with
-Taunt bait
-Poor offensive presence
-x4 electric weakness

Mantine is unique in that it conveniently is immune to both earthquake and surf, making it not only a great support for pokemon who enjoy using these moves but also a great check and counter to sand and rain teams respectively! The major difference between Smogon doubles and VGC is 6v6 as opposed to 4v4 and as such, with longer games, the support Mantine gives is incredibly difficult to match!

Mantine has a support move pool that is hardly lacking, I'll list a few important moves below:

-Helping Hand
-Icy Wind
-Wide Guard
-Tailwind
-Haze

Wide guard is the most important one as it can really help against the discharges and rock slides that plague Mantine whilst your partner attacks. Helping hand is fantastic in doubles and icy wind and tailwind support is great for speed control. Mantine also makes a great leftovers holder as it will be very rare for it to last less than a few turns assuming you take care of it and avoid electric attacks or too many rock slides.

Heres a sample set:

Weather Wall
Mantine @ Leftovers/Wacan Berry
Trait: Water Absorb
252 Hp / 252+ Def / 4 SpDef
Bold Nature
-Wide Guard
-Icy Wind
-Toxic/Scald/surf
-Helping Hand


I used this on my hail team to great success, it deals with all weathers. Wide guard is a great support and perhaps the main reason you would choose Mantine over other support mons. Defence is maxed with a positive nature to give Mantine a better chance at surviving rock slides and toxic removes common walls and deals with multiple "bulky" pokemon that care little for icy wind. Helping hand allows Mantine to do something when offence is required and makes it a great partner for pokemon such as Volcarona that can really use a 50% boost. The best partners are either surf spammers that enjoy the helping hand or icy wind support as they heal Mantine or pokemon that could really use the wide guard support in order to set-up.

Mantine conveniently resists some of the most common physical moves in a specially dominated metagame (Fighting, Steel, Bug are all common) whilst taking paltry damage from any non-electric special attacks. The list of pokemon walled by Mantine, just from the top 10 is rather high! I'll list some of the most common pokemon Mantine walls rather effortlessly. All of the below are top 20!

#1 Politoed
#2 Cresselia
#3 Ninetales
#4 Gastrodon
#5 Hitmontop
#6 Scizor
# 8Latios (without thunderbolt and with surf support to keep Mantine healthy)
#11 Metagross
#12 Volcarona
#13 Heatran
#16 Kingdra


It can also hold its own against Terrakion/Tyranitar/Garchomp/Excadrill/Landorus-T as wide guard can give it temporary immunity to rock slide whilst your partner attacks leaving only Ferrothorn, Dragonite, Whimsicott and Rotom-W as top 20 pokemon that can give it consistent trouble!!

[Braverius]

So I reached the top of the ladder and broke 2000 points (I've been playing the last few days as Boof Boof Boof.)

...

---

But I don't care if there's any reward or not honestly, since using the success I had as a teaching tool for others is enough of a reward ^_^. I decided I'd give a few tips to people looking to do well here, since I see a lot of dedication to the game in those I face, but very little knowledge of its mechanics.


This is sheer opinion, obviously, and I don't want to start an argument really, but doubles is a ton more strategic than singles. It focuses on a lot more elements than singles, and after playing a bit of both over the past year, I definitely believe this requires you to understand the workings of the game, damage rolls, mechanics, strategies, and everything far and wide. Many people are using 252/252 spreads, since that's common in singles; you have to do more calculations and take into account more when creating spreads in doubles, since Pokemon of BOTH attack types will be hitting you.

Second, and for most established singles players I cannot stress this enough, STRONGLY CONSIDER WHAT YOUR OPPONENT IS LIKELY DOING WHEN MAKING A MOVE. I have seen SO many straight 6-mon Trick Room, Sun, Rain, etc. teams that focus on THEIR STRATEGY and have zero concern for what the opponent could do to stop it (these teams don't work against seasoned players...almost ever.) Even if these players do look at what the opponent does, they still focus way too much on executing the strategy rather than making a good play. Put yourself in the opponent's shoes. If you were them, what would you do? Which Pokemon would be attacking which? Which Pokemon of yours are threatened? By spectating battles between high-rated players and observing their moves, and by simply playing them, you can understand why they're making specific moves. You're never above anyone else; always strive to get better. There's always something you can improve on at this game.

I recommend looking around for battle videos of experienced players, try to see what they're doing as far as team composition goes, and how they play. I also recommend not copying their team EXACTLY, but make sure you look at the concept and keep that consistent. For example, if there's a Cresselia/Metagross combination you like that utilizes Trick Room and Swagger/Lum Berry, but you don't like how Trick Room is used, try Thundurus with Swagger and Garchomp/Metagross instead. Just remember, as I mentioned in the tip above...you can't just think "IF I GET SWAGGER OFF, I WIN!" Your opponent may Rage Powder your Swagger with their Amoonguss and Heat Wave, effectively ending your attempt. Always take into account all possible threats. If someone shuts down your team and you failed to identify the threat or could not handle it, analyze it rationally (don't simply say "it was a gimmick, BS!!) and mold a Pokemon or a moveslot to better deal with that threat.


So in essence, look around for established doubles/VGC players, practice on PS/GBU, and remember the game is NOT about executing your strategy, but how well you are able to deal withyour opponent's team/moves/strategy.


Good luck to anyone out there giving this format a shot; keep an open mind, a winning mentality, and an attitude that promotes learning and improving!

[HabibsHotDogs]

^^ I know you as the guy who foiled 2 attempts at me ohkoing your politoed d:P I did learn that I don't always need to try ohkoing politoed first turn as priority sunny day teams have an inherent advantage over politoed rain if you play more relaxed.. I haven't lost to a rain team since then. Also Whimsicott is NOT taunt bait as you suggested.. one of the best pokemon in the tier, dead serious.

I like playing "out there" teams..

anyway I present to you:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9581859

How to wall an entire rain team, featuring Mantine.

How to sweep an entire rain team (except an ironic ending) featuring Volcarona.

Excuse the messing around in a lot of the turns I was entertained by the fact mantine was literally untouchable.

For those running Whimsicott you really should consider running max speed with a positive nature, that allows you to out taunt everything in the game and prevents priority thunderwave. It also guarantees you set up a screen/sun/tailwind or whatever no matter what your opponent runs :)

edit: just lost to a rain team, GG Level 51

[youngjake93]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

Pwnemon I would much rather run Sitrus Berry or an Iron Ball on that set. You aren't going to be staying in nearly long enough for lefties to be worthwhile with both Politoed's bulk and the fact that it needs to keep swapping in and out, and the fact that the enemy is likely to try and just flat out kill the frog rather then worry about it staying around to cause mayhem since Toed's power is something to be feared.

Also, why not run Scald over Hydro Pump on a set like that? It still has great power while giving you a decent chance at some burn hax while removing the chance to be misshax'd by hydro miss.

I've played against his team a few times and Politoed is more important for him as a Helping Hander that survives longer than 4 turns than as a weather reactivater. He also predicts well enough with Protect to stall 4 turns. I think it might be better with Scald though.

Originally Posted by Fat Braverius

Second, and for most established singles players I cannot stress this enough, STRONGLY CONSIDER WHAT YOUR OPPONENT IS LIKELY DOING WHEN MAKING A MOVE.
So in essence, look around for established doubles/VGC players, practice on PS/GBU, and remember the game is NOT about executing your strategy, but how well you are able to deal with your opponent's team/moves/strategy.

^Yes this exactly. Prediction and stopping powerful plays from being successful is the key to doing well. That is why HITMONTOP is so great. It focuses on dismantling 99% of possible opposing strategies AND creates free turns for you to wreak havoc. It also feeds into Gastrodon's success by being able to switch into EITHER teamslot and redirect a Hydro Pump for a +1 boost. It also feeds into the success of Thunder Wave(particularly Prankster t-wave) by shutting down fast sweeps completely AND scoring parahaxes to hinder their strategy.


Habibs just made me see the light with Mantine on that replay.. I think it might be the best walling water type. The only thing I see troubling it(outside of the obvious Thunder/Thunderbolt) is Dragon Claw. Mantine is conveniently a fantastic abuser of Leftovers too haha. It also shows that people actually do use Toxic and as more than a way to shut down Cress.
I'd like to make another point about Leftovers. If you realize that your opponent doesn't have it, then you can switch your playstyle mentality to stall on the fly and get yourself an advantage with extra healing/residual damage on them.

[Rayquaza_]

Another reason Hitmontop is so good is because of its mono-Fighting type.
Flying and Psychic-type as coverage moves are practically unused and you can see STAB'd ones coming from a mile away. On top of that they're all single-target moves so you can just use Protect on Hitmontop or switch out while the other pokemon attacks.

Hitmontop is the sole reason I often include a surprise Trick/Switcheroo user to cripple it.

[Mr.E]

Eh, much of Hitmontop's usefulness is in its Intimidate + Fake Out. Once it's actually sitting on the field, you can pretty much ignore it so long as you don't have Fighting weaks active. Its support abilities are relegated to what, Helping Hand and Wide Guard? It doesn't cripple you like a Cresselia or Whimsicott. Unless it's offensive Technitop, in which case you can kill it pretty easily. ;[

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

How to sweep an entire rain team (except an ironic ending) featuring Volcarona.

VGC or Smogon Doubles, pretty much every single one of my wins against rain teams is a Volcarona sweep tbh. Storm Drain + Quiver Dance =

[HabibsHotDogs]

How to win a match almost exclusively with support pokemon!

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9619679

MVP's: Sableye and Hitmontops critical fake outs and Mantine for dem toxics/icy winds and wide guard supports. I think stall will be more viable in doubles than in singles because setup moves are so rare.. so carry a way to deal with Volca and chances are your stall will be difficult to break

[Skore]

Still finding my Trick Sun team to be the most fun to play personally.

This is a pretty good replay showing how I predicted what my opponent would do in Turn 1 (ie - assume that my Cofa would go for the Trick Room as it's fake out proof) which led to the match going downhill quick for them.

Check out Turn 4 for a Doubles style Sunnybeam!

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles9622038

[Bent1ey]

After watching some replays I agree that Mantine is pretty awesome as a support pokemon, one of the better Wide Guard users in the tier.

[HabibsHotDogs]

Doubles battlers, I will present to you a pokemon that you will probably not usually consider for support, that does it exceptionally well:



Breloom is a fantastic support mon that has great use against rain, sand and hail teams! Unfortunately it is rather useless against sun as most offenders can 2hko it at worst even after toxic recovery.

Breloom's doubles geared movepool and typing is simply fantastic, I'll list a few of the more awesome moves.

-Leech Seed
-Spore
-Helping Hand
-Fake Tears

It's important resistances are to surf, discharge, earthquake and rock slide and it can survive most non STAB blizzards and heat waves! I Highly Recommend toxic heal as the status immunity is priceless and the recovery allows you to deal better with occasional ice beams, flamethrowers and sludge bombs.

Here is a sample set:

Unconventional Wall

Breloom @ Toxic Orb/Leftovers
Trait: Poison Heal
252 HP / 8 Spd / 248+ SpDef
-Drain Punch / Helping Hand
-Protect
-Seed Bomb / Helping Hand
-Spore

Drain punch and protect keep it healthy and this Breloom is difficult to ohko from full hp with special attacks, seed bomb allows you to nuke specific threats on weather teams and spore works great with fake out support to neuter threats and especially trick room! Helping hand is a move that fits Breloom well and allows it to facilitate wall breaking for its partner. Leech seed is an option over seed bomb or spore in order to maximise healing and harassment. Leftovers is an option over toxic orb if you have something to toxic you earlier in the match.

Breloom is particularly good at countering disquake combinations and walling sand and sun teams in general, usually I find it best to pair it with a powerful sweeper that can put pressure on opponents immediately in order for breloom to give it the right helping hand and spore support.

For now, I haven't put too much effort into ev'ing it but it might be useful to EV it to take certain hits such as a non item boosted blizzard from 252+ Abomasnow or a draco meteor from Kingdra and pump enough ev's into attack to score critical ko's or 2hkos such as against Gastrodon, Excadrill, Politoed and Abomasnow

edit: 252/36/220+ Breloom gives you a good chance of ohkoing even the most defensive Gastrodon (without rindo) whilst surviving the aforementioned high powered moves (252+ Aboma blizzard + hail damage and LO 252+ Kingdra meteor). Unfortunately Breloom can never ohko Excadrill with drain punch but has a very good chance to ohko non-chople Tyranitar running max HP.

[Skore]

0Atk Technician Breloom (Neutral) Seed Bomb vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Storm Drain Gastrodon (+Def): 93% - 110% (400 - 472 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 63% chance to OHKO.

Breloom's pretty much going to munch Gastrodon no matter what with Seed Bomb.

252SpAtk Abomasnow (Neutral) Blizzard vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Breloom (+SpDef): 94% - 111% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 66% chance to OHKO.

On the other hand, Obama shits all over him unless it has no investment in Special Attack:

4SpAtk Abomasnow (Neutral) Blizzard vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Breloom (+SpDef): 72% - 87% (236 - 282 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

That set look's pretty awesome, I'm going to have to try it out myself.

[HabibsHotDogs]

Change the settings in the calculator to doubles, those blizzard calcs are inaccurate.

[Skore]

252SpAtk Abomasnow (+SAtk) Blizzard vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Breloom (+SpDef): 77% - 91% (252 - 296 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Yeah forgot the conditions.

Well it survives a 252+ SpAtk Obama's Blizzard, just about. Can be a clincher if needed as your opponent probably won't expect it to survive at all. Spore the offending Ice type and heal it back with Drain Punch to cause many rage quits.

[Nollan]

I've been experimenting with the move Simple Beam on Smogon Doubles recently. Genesect is allowed in Smogon Doubles and is the fastest user of this move. When combined with the right partner, Simple Beam can be a death blow if successful. Here is an example where I use it to gain an early win: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9680453

[HabibsHotDogs]

Making rain teams rage quit since I began using Mantine + Sunny day Sableye :)

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9681799

This guy was pretty high ranked too..

My team isn't even good but is more about trolling and giving Sceptile some usage.. and I still absolutely butt rape the most common weather

Taking suggestions on alternative Sceptile sets, I want it in my team but am unsure on how to use it.

Volcarona for S Rank in "Doubles viability ranking thread" coming soon!! (She is so good/versatile and easily supported!!)

edit: At above.. your strat is so easily walled, my hitmontop cancelled white herb and fake out prevents set up... not a decent start against most players

[Arcticblast]

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles9696088

This match was against a guy using Trick Room + Belly Drum + Psych Up. Despite how devastating it sounds, judicious use of Protect on both sides made it quite a close match. It had me on my feet the whole time, sometimes trying to tank as many hits as possible and sometimes just waiting to get Gigalith in to smash some heads in. Watch it!

[Pocket]

Habibs, I enjoyed your Mantine and Breloom posts - thanks for sharing your unique findings! It was amusing to say the least to see Mantine (and Sableye) kicking standard doubles team! Do you happen to have any replays with some Breloom action?

Sceptile is shit, though - why use it over Skymin with better Speed and SpA (120/127 > 105/120)??? Not to mention you're using physical Sceptile x_x;; Unburden isn't worth it seriously - I hope you replaced Sceptile with your Breloom xP

Arcticblast - BDrum Lax is ballsy! The team would have better took advantage of Snorlax if they paired it with a Follow Me / Rage Powder user, imo. Too bad there are no Follow Me users that also sets up Trick Room. +6 Dusknoir / Sableye are weak shit, though. At least pair it with Psych Up Metagross and that team would have been less gimmicky!

[Braverius]

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

Making rain teams rage quit since I began using Mantine + Sunny day Sableye :)

I still absolutely butt rape the most common weather

Volcarona for S Rank in "Doubles viability ranking thread" coming soon!! (She is so good/versatile and easily supported!!)

I won 4/5 against you with my pretty standard rain/sand team...please don't start bragging about beating rain when it's not at all hard to beat Mantine/Sunny Day/Volc. I don't mean to be a jerk, but don't get ahead of yourself here...

Volcarona is solid, but not the top of everything. It's not bulky enough to be super high tier, although it is definitely right below that.
AND WHAT IF MY VOLC IS A MALE D:

[Pocket]

Originally Posted by Fat Braverius

So I reached the top of the ladder and broke 2000 points (I've been playing the last few days as Boof Boof Boof.)

...

---

But I don't care if there's any reward or not honestly, since using the success I had as a teaching tool for others is enough of a reward ^_^. I decided I'd give a few tips to people looking to do well here, since I see a lot of dedication to the game in those I face, but very little knowledge of its mechanics.


This is sheer opinion, obviously, and I don't want to start an argument really, but doubles is a ton more strategic than singles. It focuses on a lot more elements than singles, and after playing a bit of both over the past year, I definitely believe this requires you to understand the workings of the game, damage rolls, mechanics, strategies, and everything far and wide. Many people are using 252/252 spreads, since that's common in singles; you have to do more calculations and take into account more when creating spreads in doubles, since Pokemon of BOTH attack types will be hitting you.

Second, and for most established singles players I cannot stress this enough, STRONGLY CONSIDER WHAT YOUR OPPONENT IS LIKELY DOING WHEN MAKING A MOVE. I have seen SO many straight 6-mon Trick Room, Sun, Rain, etc. teams that focus on THEIR STRATEGY and have zero concern for what the opponent could do to stop it (these teams don't work against seasoned players...almost ever.) Even if these players do look at what the opponent does, they still focus way too much on executing the strategy rather than making a good play. Put yourself in the opponent's shoes. If you were them, what would you do? Which Pokemon would be attacking which? Which Pokemon of yours are threatened? By spectating battles between high-rated players and observing their moves, and by simply playing them, you can understand why they're making specific moves. You're never above anyone else; always strive to get better. There's always something you can improve on at this game.

I recommend looking around for battle videos of experienced players, try to see what they're doing as far as team composition goes, and how they play. I also recommend not copying their team EXACTLY, but make sure you look at the concept and keep that consistent. For example, if there's a Cresselia/Metagross combination you like that utilizes Trick Room and Swagger/Lum Berry, but you don't like how Trick Room is used, try Thundurus with Swagger and Garchomp/Metagross instead. Just remember, as I mentioned in the tip above...you can't just think "IF I GET SWAGGER OFF, I WIN!" Your opponent may Rage Powder your Swagger with their Amoonguss and Heat Wave, effectively ending your attempt. Always take into account all possible threats. If someone shuts down your team and you failed to identify the threat or could not handle it, analyze it rationally (don't simply say "it was a gimmick, BS!!) and mold a Pokemon or a moveslot to better deal with that threat.


So in essence, look around for established doubles/VGC players, practice on PS/GBU, and remember the game is NOT about executing your strategy, but how well you are able to deal withyour opponent's team/moves/strategy.


Good luck to anyone out there giving this format a shot; keep an open mind, a winning mentality, and an attitude that promotes learning and improving!

Strong post, Braverius! Thanks for your participation in this fun endeavor :)

I urge you to take part in Double Conquest. Post a screenshot with any account with over 100 rated games of Smogon Doubles and you earn 5 points for every 100 played games! Register a fresh alt and climb up to top 5 for additional 2+ points! Finally our IRC Conquest is a fun challenge to get to know other players enjoying this tier at #doubles. Hope to see you sooN!

[HabibsHotDogs]

Lol, I seem to have a few haters now

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9764135

Thats the one I recently lose to Braverius, Breloom was present in most of it so it shows how good it is.

And Tyranitar + Exca are not usually on standard rain teams.

The main flaw on my team seems to be 5 supporting pokemon and 1 sweeper, putting a lot of pressure on Volca leads to me losing every now and again.. but she still shoulders it well.

edit: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles9766322

I havent had a dis/quake team for a while but that should do for a little, it just shows Breloom checking thunderbolts basically, quite the special wall, I am trying to figure out how to combine guard split shuckle with toxic heal Breloom because that would probably be a defensive behemoth. You will notice my breloom atm doesn't have helping hand and it REALLY misses it.

[Bent1ey]

Pretty good replay, loved how both Mantine and Breloom performed, they are quite solid in this format. Keep them coming :)

[BlankZero]

Funny how every time Biosci and Huy play, they bring their foul mouthed minions along.

[Skore]

Where has Cresselia gone? I've not seen one used against me in a while.