(UU) A Team without Scarf Heracross or SubCM Raikou :p

Psylink · Jan 27th, 2013, 5:52:02 PM

I'm Psylink. This is a team without CS Heracros or SubCM Raikou. The goal of this team is to try out Work Up Togekiss.

I need help. There's so much I can't seem to counter. Ground types, Bulky Waters, Fighting types(

), the list goes on and on. Here goes!

Togekiss (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd
Brave Nature
- Work Up
- ExtremeSpeed
- Air Slash
- Roost/Aura Sphere/Drain Punch

This is a huge suprise to those who don't expect it. People usually think: "Oooh! Togekiss! Is Paraflinch!", but this is the Work Up sweeper. I use Hustle, 252 EVs and Brave to maximize physically attacking power. 252 EVs in SpA is for the other side of the spectrum. Work Up is my boosting move of choice. ExtremeSpeed revenges fantastically! It gets the jump on those like Technician Hitmontop, and other priority users. Air Slash is the other STAB of choice. It doesn't get the 60% flinch chance because of Hustle, but it's OK. I'm not sure what I should do for the fourth slot. When I run Roost, Rock and Steel types are a problem, and when I use Aura Sphere, I can't sweep for long. Drain Punch is an option, but it wouldn't work as well as Roost or Drain Punch would. Life Orb is for big power. Won't replace.

Houndoom @ Life Orb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Fighting]

Houndoom is my second sweeper. It functions fantastically, but it's large amount of weaknesses limit my team. It's really just a standard Houndoom set. Nasty Plot to set up, Dark Pulse and Fire Blast for STABs, and HP Fight for coverage. EVs are simple, Maximizing SpA and Spe, and a little SpD. Timid to outspeed stuff. Unfortunately, it's weaknesses make it unreliable. It's replaceable.

Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Close Combat
- Mach Punch
- Stone Edge

Hitmontop is my much needed spinner on this team, with my sweepers both being weak to Stealth Rock and Houndoom to Spikes, it was mandatory. Rapid Spin is just there, CC for attacking power, Mach Punch for priority, and Stone Edge for Chandies coming in to set up and spinblock. I put the EVs into his attacking power for an offensive spinner approach. I went for Intimidate so he could switch between Arcanine and him to limit the many physically-based threats in the tier. Can't replace.

Flygon (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- U-turn

Scarf Flygon. We know it. EQ and Outrage for STAB, Fire Punch for Steels, U-turn for momentum. I needed a physically-based Scarfer on this team. EVs are standard. Nature too. The image is cool, though! Replaceable by another physical scarfer

Umbreon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Payback

Umbreon is my special wall (of course). Wish is for healing both itself and it's teammates. Protect is used so Wishing itself works. Heal Bell is for status, and Payback is so it isn't Taunt bait. I maximized HP and SpD, plus some for attack.
Can't replace.

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Flamethrower
- ExtremeSpeed

This is my physically defensive pokemon. With Intimidate and WoW, it does it's job amazingly. Flamethrower is for STAB and Morning Sun is for healing. This is highly replaceable.

I really need help. I hope someone reads this! :D

shiranai · Jan 27th, 2013, 8:20:45 PM

First thing I noticed when looking to your team: your team have a lot of problems with Stealth Rock. Even with Hitmontop you still are really weak to it. And this problem takes to another one: you can't take physical hits quite well because Hitmontop isn't taking a lot of hits with no defensive investment while Arcanine will be wear down by Rocks(maybe this is why you can't deal with fightings).
This way, you will need to change a few things here. First thing is selecting another defensive pokemon in place of Arcanine, and maybe one of the best options is already in your team, but with a different moveset: Hitmontop. As you alredy noted, Intimidate drops a lot the power of physsical sweepers, and with max Def investment Top can rach 317, while still keeping decent 256 Sdef without investment, while having a resistance to Rocks. Hitmontop and Umbreon will be able to take hits quite well together, since both have nice defenses and can kind of cover each other weakness.

Houndoom's best role is the same of Togekiss: a mixed set. This way, I think that Togekiss will be preferable for you, so instead of Houndoom you could run another special sweeper. I can see two options for you, Chandelure or Raikou. Chandelure can be prefered if you want to keep the fire immunity, since the ghost also have better immunities and don't need a lot of setup to hit hard, and with a Specs it can 2HKO most bulky waters with Energy Ball; Raikou, on the other hand, get rid of a Stealth Rock weakness, while being a good answer to both waters and grounds, as long as it carries Hidden Power Grass.

Now, with Arcanine gone, we have a free spot. Since your team aims for a Tokekiss sweep you need hazards, Stealth Rock specially. Now is where it get a little hard... Your defensive pokes, which are the best ones to set Rock, don't have it in their movesets; this way, the best thing I got in my mind now is running a suicide lead, and the best for your team, in my opinion, is Azelf with Rock and dual screen. This way Azelf can make Togekiss life quite easier. With dual screens even a Raikou setup can be done quite easy.

In place of Flygon I would recommend Scarf Mienshao, specially because it can hit harder and faster than the dragonfly.

So, this is what I can say about your team, many changes may not be the best one, but I hope I could at least show you some way to deal with some weakness of your team. Work Up Togekiss can destroy teams by itself, so I really wish best luck for you!

tl;dr

PTJon7 · Jan 27th, 2013, 10:00:52 PM

I would replace Payback on Umbreon with Foul Play, as it can actually do decent damage to things.

Also in regards to your interesting Togekiss set:

1. Go with Aerial Ace over Air Slash, as it bypasses your Hustle accuracy drop.

2. If you do replace Air Slash with AA then there's no real need for and Spec Atk EVs, unless you're wanting to use Aura Sphere. If you aren't then you should 252 EVs into HP to make setting up easier.

3. I would definitely run Drain Punch for your 4th slot, as without it you would be easily walled by Steel types which could then status you. It would also help regain health back at the same time as dealing damage which is always good.

TLDR:

...

Thats just my two cents really. This, in theory, I think this will work better. Hope this is helpful!

Psylink · Jan 28th, 2013, 6:38:40 PM

Thank you for the rates! The Togekiss is mixed, and without Air Slash, I can't get past Gligar. Drain Punch is better, it's confirmed. Additionally, I'm not sure what kind of Raikou set I want. SubCM is a no-no (It's the team's namesake). That leaves me with Specs and Scarf. Any advice on that? It never occured to me that I should use Defense EVs. It works fantastically! Houndoom was cool, but I'll end up making another team around it. Thanks!

shiranai · Jan 28th, 2013, 6:54:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Psylink

Thank you for the rates! The Togekiss is mixed, and without Air Slash, I can't get past Gligar. Drain Punch is better, it's confirmed. Additionally, I'm not sure what kind of Raikou set I want. SubCM is a no-no (It's the team's namesake). That leaves me with Specs and Scarf. Any advice on that? It never occured to me that I should use Defense EVs. It works fantastically! Houndoom was cool, but I'll end up making another team around it. Thanks!

Well, if SubCM Raikou isn't an option, I guess you could go to a Specs build with HP Grass and Extrasensory or HP Ice and Aura Sphere (I prefer the first one mainly because Rash Raikou isn't the ideal one) so it could deal with both Roserade and Rhyperior. You could also try a Scarf set with Volt Switch, but this way your other scarfer must give up the speed for the boost of Choice Band, being it Mienshao, Flygon or any other physical poke you decide to run.

tl;dr

Psylink · Jan 28th, 2013, 10:48:32 PM

Thanks! I would love having Houndoom and Togekiss on the same team. Is that possible? And if so, I would use any set you could give.

shiranai · Jan 28th, 2013, 10:58:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Psylink

Thanks! I would love having Houndoom and Togekiss on the same team. Is that possible? And if so, I would use any set you could give.

The only reason you could keep Houndoom was as a Pursuit trapper, since Ghosts could stop a Extremespeed sweep. I don't think Houndoom is the best trapper in the tier, but having Flash Fire really helps avoiding being crippled by Will-o-Wisp. So, you could try something like this:

Houndoom @ Life Orb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Overheat
- Sucker Punch

This Houndoom can completely shut down ghosts and psychics, while Overheat will hit hard many stuff, specially after a Flash Fire.

But the main reason I don't recommend Houndoom is because you will be pack 2 dark pokemon, making a fighting sweep quite easy, specially from Mienshao since it can outspeed you actual scarfer.

Psylink · Jan 30th, 2013, 9:05:58 PM

I would be willing to replace Umbreon.

shiranai · Jan 30th, 2013, 9:43:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Psylink

I would be willing to replace Umbreon.

Now, a change in Umbreon will change the structure of your team, since changes in the defensive core isn't as easy as changing your sweepers (this is why I hate touching in other defensive cores). And swaping Umbreon won't be any easier because it have two roles in your team: Umbreon is a cleric and your special wall. Also, it can takes many hits aimed to Hitmontop and vice-versa, so a change in one of them can mean that Hitmontop must be gone too.
If you still willing to replace Umbreon, one thing must be decided first: would you prefer a cleric, which will have either less bulk or will lack either Heal Bell or Wish, or a special tank, which for sure will lack either options from a cleric or even both.

Psylink · Jan 31st, 2013, 5:55:15 PM

Special tank. I rarely used Wish except for Umbreon's own recovery. In today's very offensive metagame, I rarely have time to use it. I would also love a Stealth Rocker. The Azelf PTJon reccomended didn't really work. I also need a physically defensive Pokemon that isn't weak to Fighting. I could replace Azelf with Claydol, and Umbreon with another SpD poke.

Psylink · Feb 11th, 2013, 10:22:20 PM

Bump (needs the answer)

PTJon7 · Feb 11th, 2013, 10:37:44 PM

Just to clarify you want a pokemon with access to Stealth Rock and a resistance to fighting types? If that's so then I would recommend (as i do in pretty much every RMT I post in =/ ) Nidoqueen. Smogon's defensive UU set for her looks like it could work for your team, except it may give you kind of a water weakness.

...

Jan 27th, 2013, 5:52:02 PM	#1
Psylink Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 66	A Team without Scarf Heracross or SubCM Raikou :p I'm Psylink. This is a team without CS Heracros or SubCM Raikou. The goal of this team is to try out Work Up Togekiss. I need help. There's so much I can't seem to counter. Ground types, Bulky Waters, Fighting types(), the list goes on and on. Here goes! Togekiss (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Hustle EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SAtk / 4 Spd Brave Nature - Work Up - ExtremeSpeed - Air Slash - Roost/Aura Sphere/Drain Punch This is a huge suprise to those who don't expect it. People usually think: "Oooh! Togekiss! Is Paraflinch!", but this is the Work Up sweeper. I use Hustle, 252 EVs and Brave to maximize physically attacking power. 252 EVs in SpA is for the other side of the spectrum. Work Up is my boosting move of choice. ExtremeSpeed revenges fantastically! It gets the jump on those like Technician Hitmontop, and other priority users. Air Slash is the other STAB of choice. It doesn't get the 60% flinch chance because of Hustle, but it's OK. I'm not sure what I should do for the fourth slot. When I run Roost, Rock and Steel types are a problem, and when I use Aura Sphere, I can't sweep for long. Drain Punch is an option, but it wouldn't work as well as Roost or Drain Punch would. Life Orb is for big power. Won't replace. Houndoom @ Life Orb Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Nasty Plot - Dark Pulse - Fire Blast - Hidden Power [Fighting] Houndoom is my second sweeper. It functions fantastically, but it's large amount of weaknesses limit my team. It's really just a standard Houndoom set. Nasty Plot to set up, Dark Pulse and Fire Blast for STABs, and HP Fight for coverage. EVs are simple, Maximizing SpA and Spe, and a little SpD. Timid to outspeed stuff. Unfortunately, it's weaknesses make it unreliable. It's replaceable. Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Intimidate EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef Adamant Nature - Rapid Spin - Close Combat - Mach Punch - Stone Edge Hitmontop is my much needed spinner on this team, with my sweepers both being weak to Stealth Rock and Houndoom to Spikes, it was mandatory. Rapid Spin is just there, CC for attacking power, Mach Punch for priority, and Stone Edge for Chandies coming in to set up and spinblock. I put the EVs into his attacking power for an offensive spinner approach. I went for Intimidate so he could switch between Arcanine and him to limit the many physically-based threats in the tier. Can't replace. Flygon (M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef Adamant Nature IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def - Earthquake - Outrage - Fire Punch - U-turn Scarf Flygon. We know it. EQ and Outrage for STAB, Fire Punch for Steels, U-turn for momentum. I needed a physically-based Scarfer on this team. EVs are standard. Nature too. The image is cool, though! Replaceable by another physical scarfer Umbreon (M) @ Leftovers Trait: Synchronize EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk Careful Nature - Wish - Protect - Heal Bell - Payback Umbreon is my special wall (of course). Wish is for healing both itself and it's teammates. Protect is used so Wishing itself works. Heal Bell is for status, and Payback is so it isn't Taunt bait. I maximized HP and SpD, plus some for attack. Can't replace. Arcanine @ Leftovers Trait: Intimidate EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def Impish Nature - Will-O-Wisp - Morning Sun - Flamethrower - ExtremeSpeed This is my physically defensive pokemon. With Intimidate and WoW, it does it's job amazingly. Flamethrower is for STAB and Morning Sun is for healing. This is highly replaceable. I really need help. I hope someone reads this! :D __________________ There is no spoon, there is only you. Last edited by Psylink; Jan 27th, 2013 at 5:52:58 PM. Reason: Changed title

Jan 27th, 2013, 8:20:45 PM	#2
shiranai Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 114	First thing I noticed when looking to your team: your team have a lot of problems with Stealth Rock. Even with Hitmontop you still are really weak to it. And this problem takes to another one: you can't take physical hits quite well because Hitmontop isn't taking a lot of hits with no defensive investment while Arcanine will be wear down by Rocks(maybe this is why you can't deal with fightings). This way, you will need to change a few things here. First thing is selecting another defensive pokemon in place of Arcanine, and maybe one of the best options is already in your team, but with a different moveset: Hitmontop. As you alredy noted, Intimidate drops a lot the power of physsical sweepers, and with max Def investment Top can rach 317, while still keeping decent 256 Sdef without investment, while having a resistance to Rocks. Hitmontop and Umbreon will be able to take hits quite well together, since both have nice defenses and can kind of cover each other weakness. Houndoom's best role is the same of Togekiss: a mixed set. This way, I think that Togekiss will be preferable for you, so instead of Houndoom you could run another special sweeper. I can see two options for you, Chandelure or Raikou. Chandelure can be prefered if you want to keep the fire immunity, since the ghost also have better immunities and don't need a lot of setup to hit hard, and with a Specs it can 2HKO most bulky waters with Energy Ball; Raikou, on the other hand, get rid of a Stealth Rock weakness, while being a good answer to both waters and grounds, as long as it carries Hidden Power Grass. Now, with Arcanine gone, we have a free spot. Since your team aims for a Tokekiss sweep you need hazards, Stealth Rock specially. Now is where it get a little hard... Your defensive pokes, which are the best ones to set Rock, don't have it in their movesets; this way, the best thing I got in my mind now is running a suicide lead, and the best for your team, in my opinion, is Azelf with Rock and dual screen. This way Azelf can make Togekiss life quite easier. With dual screens even a Raikou setup can be done quite easy. In place of Flygon I would recommend Scarf Mienshao, specially because it can hit harder and faster than the dragonfly. So, this is what I can say about your team, many changes may not be the best one, but I hope I could at least show you some way to deal with some weakness of your team. Work Up Togekiss can destroy teams by itself, so I really wish best luck for you! tl;dr Houndoom: Change to Chandelure or Raikou. Chandelure @ Choice Specs Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd/4 SDef Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Trick - Energy Ball - Shadow Ball - Fire Blast Raikou @ Leftovers Trait: Pressure EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Substitute - Thunderbolt - Hidden Power [Grass] - Calm Mind Hitmontop: change to this set: Hitmontop @ Leftovers Trait: Intimidate EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk) - Toxic - Close Combat - Rapid Spin - Stone Edge Arcanine: change to Azelf. Azelf @ Light Clay Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - Reflect - Light Screen - Stealth Rock - Explosion/Taunt Flygon: change to Mienshao. Mienshao @ Choice Scarf Trait: Regenerator EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) - Hi Jump Kick - Stone Edge - U-Turn - Aerial Ace __________________ The Monotype Challenge Psychic - Steel - Dark

Jan 27th, 2013, 10:00:52 PM	#3
PTJon7 Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 325	I would replace Payback on Umbreon with Foul Play, as it can actually do decent damage to things. Also in regards to your interesting Togekiss set: 1. Go with Aerial Ace over Air Slash, as it bypasses your Hustle accuracy drop. 2. If you do replace Air Slash with AA then there's no real need for and Spec Atk EVs, unless you're wanting to use Aura Sphere. If you aren't then you should 252 EVs into HP to make setting up easier. 3. I would definitely run Drain Punch for your 4th slot, as without it you would be easily walled by Steel types which could then status you. It would also help regain health back at the same time as dealing damage which is always good. TLDR: ... Togekiss (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Hustle EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk Adamant Nature - Work Up - ExtremeSpeed - Aerial Ace - Drain Punch Thats just my two cents really. This, in theory, I think this will work better. Hope this is helpful!

Jan 28th, 2013, 6:38:40 PM	#4
Psylink Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 66	Thank you for the rates! The Togekiss is mixed, and without Air Slash, I can't get past Gligar. Drain Punch is better, it's confirmed. Additionally, I'm not sure what kind of Raikou set I want. SubCM is a no-no (It's the team's namesake). That leaves me with Specs and Scarf. Any advice on that? It never occured to me that I should use Defense EVs. It works fantastically! Houndoom was cool, but I'll end up making another team around it. Thanks! __________________ There is no spoon, there is only you.

Jan 28th, 2013, 10:48:32 PM	#6
Psylink Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 66	Thanks! I would love having Houndoom and Togekiss on the same team. Is that possible? And if so, I would use any set you could give. __________________ There is no spoon, there is only you.

Jan 30th, 2013, 9:05:58 PM	#8
Psylink Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 66	I would be willing to replace Umbreon. __________________ There is no spoon, there is only you.

Jan 31st, 2013, 5:55:15 PM	#10
Psylink Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 66	Special tank. I rarely used Wish except for Umbreon's own recovery. In today's very offensive metagame, I rarely have time to use it. I would also love a Stealth Rocker. The Azelf PTJon reccomended didn't really work. I also need a physically defensive Pokemon that isn't weak to Fighting. I could replace Azelf with Claydol, and Umbreon with another SpD poke. __________________ There is no spoon, there is only you.

Feb 11th, 2013, 10:22:20 PM	#11
Psylink Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 66	Bump (needs the answer) __________________ There is no spoon, there is only you.

Feb 11th, 2013, 10:37:44 PM	#12
PTJon7 Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 325	Just to clarify you want a pokemon with access to Stealth Rock and a resistance to fighting types? If that's so then I would recommend (as i do in pretty much every RMT I post in =/ ) Nidoqueen. Smogon's defensive UU set for her looks like it could work for your team, except it may give you kind of a water weakness. ... Nidoqueen @ Black Sludge Trait: Sheer Force EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spd Hasty Nature - Earthpower - Ice Beam - Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/Roar/Dragon Tail - Stealth Rock