NU Viability Ranking

[team grassfire]

Fine, D Rank it is, but I don't get why everyone only responds to their preconceptions about octillery. I only mentioned tirck room once at the end as joke and never mentioned baton pass (he is too slow to be an effective reciever for the most part, as he needs 3 speed boosts to oustpeed scarf sawk). At least hes better than his fellow d-ranks. (Who let bibarel in there, it gets koed by adamant scarf sawk after a simple curse.)

[celever]

More out of interest than anything else, why is Trapinch in D? Especially since Vibrava is E.

[ZandgaiaX]

Originally Posted by Fat celever

More out of interest than anything else, why is Trapinch in D? Especially since Vibrava is E.

Trapinch can Trap in a Pinch, haha get it? But seriously that's what Trapinch does, usually together with trickroom.

[CBTerrakion]

Originally Posted by Fat celever

More out of interest than anything else, why is Trapinch in D? Especially since Vibrava is E.

the reason vibrava is e is due to the fact that it has no reason to be used, as there are many better dragon and ground types. trapinch however, has a small niche as a trapper that can be quite effective under trick room due to its abysmal speed and high attack. outside of tr, trapinch is easy to remove with its horrid speed and defense, hence its low ranking and usage.

[FLCL]

max hp eviolite trapinch has roughly the same amount of bulk as sawk, so it can actually survive most neutral attacks. this makes it one of the best pokemon for removing threats such as skuntank or choiced electric-types like electabuzz. this alone is enough to grant it d rank status.

[Aasgier]

Originally Posted by Fat team grassfire

Fine, D Rank it is, but I don't get why everyone only responds to their preconceptions about octillery. I only mentioned tirck room once at the end as joke and never mentioned baton pass (he is too slow to be an effective reciever for the most part, as he needs 3 speed boosts to oustpeed scarf sawk). At least hes better than his fellow d-ranks. (Who let bibarel in there, it gets koed by adamant scarf sawk after a simple curse.)

That's because Specs Octillery is utterly horrible outside of Trick Room because anything remotely offensive outspeeds it, cutting the power of Water Spout - if it does not outright OHKO since Octillery is quite frail.
Baton Pass chains and Trick Room remedy that Speed issue.

[team grassfire]

You do realize it also has surf. Chances are if its remotely offensive it can't take a surf. Can someone at least try octillery on a volt-turn team without bashing it? Sorry, I just don't think anyone who has replied to me has actually tried to use octillery in the niche I think he has.

Also, cool idea with trapinch. The current analysis has some sort of stupid trick room band set. I think I'll try out the eviolite set.

[celever]

I tried Octillery on my PU team.

It ended up getting replaced with a Seadra.

[WhiteDMist]

@team grassfire: It's been a while since I've used Octillery, but the changing metagame hasn't overly affected it's effectiveness much at all. It is still mostly an offensive metagame, with Stall and balanced still only somewhat popular. If you rely on team support, then it is a bit harder to justify a higher ranking as is (besides, Trick Room isn't very difficult to stop). On its own, it is just hard to justify compared to faster Water mons that have greater overall utility. Surf is great and all, but it takes away its niche as a powerful Water Spout user (since Wailord actually has it beat in the Fast Water Spout niche).

[Magcargo 2]

I would like to move golurk up to S Rank. Despite common weaknesses and low speed, it is one of the most powerful pokemon in the tier, capable of 2HKOing most pokemon. Access to 2 great abilities in Iron fist and No gaurd allow it to pull off many effective sets such as Sub+No gaurd or a powerful choice band set. Also thx to SR golurk is the only ghost in nu that has the ability to set up SR. The increasing usage of Psychics allow golurk to be an effective check to them, thx to shadow punch.

Also I agree with octillery being at least D rank. An odd array of coverage moves allow it to beat most walls. Hydro pump was a huge pick up from B2W2 allowing it to hit many pokemon hard.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

Golurk was already S before, and was moved down because of his common weaknesses + weakness to Hail (Which is gone now, but still.). It's also not as good as the other S-Rank Pokemons, so I think it should stay A-Rank. Sorry if my arguments are not the best I'm kind of busy now.

[Magcargo 2]

Golurk was already S before, and was moved down because of his common weaknesses + weakness to Hail (Which is gone now, but still.). It's also not as good as the other S-Rank Pokemons, so I think it should stay A-Rank. Sorry if my arguments are not the best I'm kind of busy now.

Well the main reason for it's common weaknesses making it A Rank were Absol and cinncino, which are gone. Also Golurk has a powerful EQ and achieves almost perfect coverage with ice punch/Stone edge.Also it's Focus punch is among the most powerful moves in the tier.

Also roselia should be added to B Rank. Access to spikes and t spikes give it a massive niche as a user of entry hazards. Also, because it is an NFE, roselia can use eviolte to increase its bulk. Aromatherapy alllows it to be an effective cleric and it can hit quite hard thx to a good base special attack of 100.

[Mymom234]

I think shuckle should be moved up to D (at least). This guy is completely anti-meta, its defenses are the highest in the game, and it is an incredible lead. You would not believe how many people lead with something to set up rocks, and attempt to set up rocks first thing. Shuckle with encore, toxic, stealth rock, and knock off can force switches all over the place, and toxic/knock off entire teams. Equipped with leftovers, this thing has such high defenses that it is nearly impossible to kill. It also has a cool (albeit gimmicky) niche with contrary, shell smash, gyro ball, and power trick. If you can manage to get set that up, prepare for death by shuckle. With the first set, having ditto as a partner is perfect as it can encore stat boosts and ditto can come in with a choice scarf for the revenge kill sweep. The only problems I have encountered with this are trick scarfers, taunt, and substitutes. However encore works through subs so that is good enough. Seriously, this guy is VERY viable.

[Magcargo 2]

I think shuckle should be moved up to D (at least). This guy is completely anti-meta, its defenses are the highest in the game, and it is an incredible lead. You would not believe how many people lead with something to set up rocks, and attempt to set up rocks first thing. Shuckle with encore, toxic, stealth rock, and knock off can force switches all over the place, and toxic/knock off entire teams. Equipped with leftovers, this thing has such high defenses that it is nearly impossible to kill. It also has a cool (albeit gimmicky) niche with contrary, shell smash, gyro ball, and power trick. If you can manage to get set that up, prepare for death by shuckle. With the first set, having ditto as a partner is perfect as it can encore stat boosts and ditto can come in with a choice scarf for the revenge kill sweep. The only problems I have encountered with this are trick scarfers, taunt, and substitutes. However encore works through subs so that is good enough. Seriously, this guy is VERY viable

I admit i love shuckle, but there is a reason why it's E-tier: low HP, attacking stats and speed. Taunt completely shuts it down. Also, powerful stab attacks, such as golem's stone edge or ludicolo's rain boosted surf 2HKO it thanks to it's low HP. It's also to slow to use encore effectively and leads like golem, carracoasta and cacturne are a lot more effective. Also volbeat and liepard are better users of encore.

[Mymom234]

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

I admit i love shuckle, but there is a reason why it's E-tier: low HP, attacking stats and speed. Taunt completely shuts it down. Also, powerful stab attacks, such as golem's stone edge or ludicolo's rain boosted surf 2HKO it thanks to it's low HP. It's also to slow to use encore effectively and leads like golem, carracoasta and cacturne are a lot more effective. Also volbeat and liepard are better users of encore.

Shuckle is good for more than encore, knock off and toxic run rampant through entire teams if they aren't prepared. Its HP does suck though :P

[Magcargo 2]

Shuckle is good for more than encore, knock off and toxic run rampant through entire teams if they aren't prepared.

Knock off is pretty big actually, but anybody with a cleric like roselia can remove the status caused by toxic. Also, guts sweepers like gurdurr love toxic and can beat shuckle with stone edge and lickylicky is a better user of toxic and knock off thx to wish.

Also expect scolipede and haryama to drop to NU.

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by Fat Mymom234

I think shuckle should be moved up to D (at least). This guy is completely anti-meta, its defenses are the highest in the game, and it is an incredible lead. You would not believe how many people lead with something to set up rocks, and attempt to set up rocks first thing. Shuckle with encore, toxic, stealth rock, and knock off can force switches all over the place, and toxic/knock off entire teams. Equipped with leftovers, this thing has such high defenses that it is nearly impossible to kill. It also has a cool (albeit gimmicky) niche with contrary, shell smash, gyro ball, and power trick. If you can manage to get set that up, prepare for death by shuckle. With the first set, having ditto as a partner is perfect as it can encore stat boosts and ditto can come in with a choice scarf for the revenge kill sweep. The only problems I have encountered with this are trick scarfers, taunt, and substitutes. However encore works through subs so that is good enough. Seriously, this guy is VERY viable.

Shuckle is not anti-meta. If your opponent is setting up rocks on Shuckle and not expecting Encore, your opponent is not good. The only set currently listed on Shuckle's strategy page is the Utility set. If I encounter a Shuckle, on my current team I might switch to Musharna on the toxic. You'll be poisoned due to Synchronize, and then I'll use Heal Bell. Or maybe I'll switch to Roselia, which you will be able to do absolutely nothing against other than Encore my spikes, which guarantees me two layers right off the bat. Or maybe I'll switch to Gurdurr, get boosted by toxic, and Drain Punch you until you die. Or switch to any other member of my team, absorb the toxic, KO you, then use Heal Bell (and for the record, most good NU teams will have a cleric due to so many great Pokémon in the tier filling that role (Musharna, Lickilicky, Misdreavus, Miltank, Roselia, etc.).

If your opponent uses Trick or Switcheroo, Shuckle becomes useless.
If your opponent uses Taunt, Shuckle becomes useless.
If your opponent uses Substitute on anything other than Encore, Shuckle becomes useless.
If your opponent switches in a Poison- or Steel-type, Shuckle becomes useless.

Shuckle is not good. It doesn't have a niche. And no, it's really not that hard to kill.

[Magcargo 2]

Shuckle is not anti-meta. If your opponent is setting up rocks on Shuckle and not expecting Encore, your opponent is not good. The only set currently listed on Shuckle's strategy page is the Utility set. If I encounter a Shuckle, on my current team I might switch to Musharna on the toxic. You'll be poisoned due to Synchronize, and then I'll use Heal Bell. Or maybe I'll switch to Roselia, which you will be able to do absolutely nothing against other than Encore my spikes, which guarantees me two layers right off the bat. Or maybe I'll switch to Gurdurr, get boosted by toxic, and Drain Punch you until you die. Or switch to any other member of my team, absorb the toxic, KO you, then use Heal Bell (and for the record, most good NU teams will have a cleric due to so many great Pokémon in the tier filling that role (Musharna, Lickilicky, Misdreavus, Miltank, Roselia, etc.).

If your opponent uses Trick or Switcheroo, Shuckle becomes useless.
If your opponent uses Taunt, Shuckle becomes useless.
If your opponent uses Substitute on anything other than Encore, Shuckle becomes useless.
If your opponent switches in a Poison- or Steel-type, Shuckle becomes useless.

Shuckle is not good. It doesn't have a niche. And no, it's really not that hard to kill.

This is basically what I am saying. Also Shuckle is outclassed by most of the other pokemon using encore, knock off, or toxic (almost everything that has great bulk makes better use of toxc). Also what are your thoughts on my ranking of roselia and golurk?

[Treecko]

So, I saw some talk about Ursaring on the last page. Quick Feet Ursaring is fantastic and far more viable than people give it credit for. It has a very usuable speed stat after quick feet. Over 330 speed after the quick feet boost. Massiva attack even with a jolly nature. 140 BP STAB move which hits hard against almost everything. Anything that can take a Facade does not want to take one of Ursaring's coverage moves. If you add SD to the set (which it does fine without), after an SD, it can sweep after eliminating faster Pokes (most of which will just be scarfers). Ultimately, its sheer power with either Guts or Quick Feet, both of which are viable sets, should be enough to move Ursaring to B rank in my honest opinion.

Also, I am sort of confused why Dragonair is in D rank. It isn't the best Pokemon, but I would hardly call it mediocre. With Shed Skin Rest+Eviolite, it can take quite a few hits on either side of the spectrum. It has access to Dragon Dance, and a resttalk set with Dragon Dance and Outrage is definitely viable as using Outrage with Sleep Talk does not lock the user into it. It can also run a bulky Dragon Tail set to phase teams and get some major hazard damage circulating. In my opinion, Dragonair should be moved up to C rank. It may not by any means be the best choice of a Pokemon in NU, but calling it mediocre is a crime.

[NfskMjmMal]

I agree about Dragonair. It's pretty bulky and capable of walling things like Charizard (idk what build he was, but I think my Dragonair took like 27% from a Fire Blast). It has a ton of power potential for something with that much bulk too. Even uninvested, +1 Outrages do a lot to most things, with Waterfall being great coverage for everything else. With full special defense investment and Marvel Scale for that RestTalk set, Dragonair can be even more of a wall.

Oh, and shouldn't Gardevoir have been moved up to S rank?

[JirachiCelebiMew]

For Ursaring, you're either compromising power or speed, and in Quick Feet's case, power. Ursaring won't hit hard enough without Guts.

Gardevoir is supposed to be S-Rank already, it must be a mere mistake.

Shuckle should stay in E-rank because it doesn't deserve to be used on a serious team for all the reasons mentioned above.

[Magcargo 2]

Well the main reason for it's common weaknesses making it A Rank were Absol and cinncino, which are gone. Also Golurk has a powerful EQ and achieves almost perfect coverage with ice punch/Stone edge.Also it's Focus punch is among the most powerful moves in the tier.

Also roselia should be added to B Rank. Access to spikes and t spikes give it a massive niche as a user of entry hazards. Also, because it is an NFE, roselia can use eviolte to increase its bulk. Aromatherapy alllows it to be an effective cleric and it can hit quite hard thx to a good base special attack of 100

.
gonna post this again because nobody is really discussing them. Also, I would say stoutland should be added to D/C Rank. Its only niche is pairing up with normal types to form a core like salamence rayquaza in ubers. It has an average 100 attack and can't make use of it's bulk because of granbull. It does have good coverage however.

[tennisace]

I can pick out 3-4 other normal-types that form better normal-type cores than stoutland (Sawsbuck + Kangaskhan, Kanga + Zangoose, Goose + Buck, Linoone + any of them). Stoutland has really nothing going for it without permanent Sand.

[FortressDoor]

Originally Posted by Fat JirachiCelebiMew

For Ursaring, you're either compromising power or speed, and in Quick Feet's case, power. Ursaring won't hit hard enough without Guts.

Gardevoir is supposed to be S-Rank already, it must be a mere mistake.

Shuckle should stay in E-rank because it doesn't deserve to be used on a serious team for all the reasons mentioned above.

Ursaring's Quick Feet set is usually outclassed by Swellow. Even after the Quick Feet boost, Swellow hits harder, and is still faster, even if it runs a neutral nature. I guess Ursaring can use Swords Dance, but that requires taking at least one attack, and unless it is something really weak, Ursaring will not like extra damage. I suppose Ursaring has Close Combat, helping it to get past rock types, but Regirock survives Quick Feet Ursaring's Close Combat, provided Ursaring has not Sword Danced, and sends a Drain Punch back at him.

Guts Ursaring, IMO, is the better set. If you are worried about speed, pair him up with a Ninjask lead. With a speed boost, Ursaring is a beast. Granted the same could be said about any Pokemon, but Ninjask is B Tier, so I assume we are allowed to mention its support. After Guts, only a few things can take a hit, and do anything back. Tangela comes to mind as one. It may not always be practical to have Ninjask support, but Guts Ursaring is a great wall breaker.

Ursaring does have flaws : it is prone to be being revenge killed, has a bad STAB, and is weak to Mach Punch, which is why I am not arguing for A Rank. B Rank seems like a good place for him.

[Magcargo 2]

I can pick out 3-4 other normal-types that form better normal-type cores than stoutland (Sawsbuck + Kangaskhan, Kanga + Zangoose, Goose + Buck, Linoone + any of them). Stoutland has really nothing going for it without permanent Sand

With all pokemon you mentioned, Stoutland at best is D rank. It has small niches over all these pokemon. It's bulkier than linoone and zangoose, has better coverage than tauros and buck and higher attack than kanga. Stoutland is the jack of all trades, master of none.