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Old Jan 29th, 2013, 11:39:44 AM   #626
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Dodrio's 20 extra base attack is a pretty big deal. Add the access to better Normal moves and getting Drill Peck earlier and you've got a significantly stronger Pokémon, whereas Fearow is never significantly stronger than the unevolved Doduo.

That said, I think an argument can be made for Spearow in High on its own merits/compared to other High-tier Pokémon. I guess I'd put Spearow in Mid but would be fine either way.
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Old Jan 29th, 2013, 3:52:54 PM   #627
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I'd rank Spearow/Fearow in High based on the fact that they're available must earlier in the game than Doduo/Dodrio, meaning you don't have to waste too much experience on Doduo to play catch-up.
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Old Jan 30th, 2013, 6:25:10 AM   #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Longfellow View Post
Dodrio's 20 extra base attack is a pretty big deal. Add the access to better Normal moves and getting Drill Peck earlier and you've got a significantly stronger Pokémon, whereas Fearow is never significantly stronger than the unevolved Doduo.

That said, I think an argument can be made for Spearow in High on its own merits/compared to other High-tier Pokémon. I guess I'd put Spearow in Mid but would be fine either way.
The question is: is Dodrio's 20 extra attack significant enough for a lead? Is Dodrio capable of killing things with Double-Edge/Hyper Beam that Fearow can't? If Fearow is capable of killing the same enemies in the same amount of hits as Dodrio, then Fearow and Dodrio are pretty identical in this regard.

Getting Drill Peck earlier is only a minor win for Doduo, unless the 4 levels between which Doduo and Fearow get Drill Peck is significant enough for Fearow's performance to be an entire tier later. Yes, Fearow is statistically inferior to Dodrio in every regard (except 1 point of special but who gives a shit), but if Fearow is capable of getting the job done, why not?
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Old Jan 30th, 2013, 6:35:21 PM   #629
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Also, let's rebember the stat. exp., when you get Duduo, it's without any stat. exp., while Spearow could have helped you along a good bunch of the time (about the half), and he could just developed stronger stats than Duduo/Dodrio. Spearow is not something like Magikarp that you need to train in order to use, Spearow is useful from the moment you catch it, and even if you don't want to expend to much experience on it, you can still catch one at higher levels, but still earlier.

Just for refreshing the memory, EV = The Square Root of your current Stat. Exp. (rounded down).

It means if you used a Spearow and you wanted to change it for a Duduo; you'll have a worst Fearow always, because it will be (a lot) less trained, making your Fearow trained from those level 4 Spearows a harder hitter (with more speed and bulky) at the same level as a Dodrio. That's an advantage of every each Pokémon you get earlier at low levels and can help you on the while.
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Old Jan 30th, 2013, 9:10:22 PM   #630
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Those are good points. Then again, Spearow is nothing special before Route 16 gives it Fly (Peck and Fury Attack are lousy moves), so... I dunno. I guess I'd have to test Spearow and Doduo out again to say anything for sure.
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Old Jan 31st, 2013, 12:40:40 AM   #631
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Yes, that's maybe the main point, is Spearow (as Spearow) useful enough to being on the High Tier? Because as Fearow he's almost the exactly same thing than Dodrio thanks you needed to train him, of course, both are really good once you have Fly, but that's where the question comes, you need to train the Spearow (or catch him as Fearow later, but that's somewhat pointless having Duduo), I feel Spearow is useful enough to don't being a dead weight for it's team while he's trying to being a great Fearow, but he's kinda bad for the caves and against some trainers, those points really makes hard if he's Mid or High Tier.
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Old Jan 31st, 2013, 9:18:08 PM   #632
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I've been testing Route 16 Spearow in Yellow.

My team when I entered Celadon was Pikachu, Butterfree and Clefable, all level 31. I headed straight to Route 16 and caught a level 22 Spearow (I went with this level because it is the only level that exists in both RB and Yellow so it seemed the most useful way to go). I healed it, taught it Fly and headed straight to Celadon Gym.

The whole process went like this:

...


Take that as you will. There was a bit a hax going both ways, but it's hard to avoid that. So other than the first few trainers as a Spearow, which Spearow doesn't really lose to but has to be wary of status a bit, it does the same thing as Doduo overall. Doduo is clearly better in this scenario, if only because it starts out with higher Attack before Spearow evolves, but overall Spearow/Fearow did very well and swept the whole gym on its own. I had to heal once for PP, but I've used Doduo before and had to do the same thing with that as well.

So next I have to do the Rocket Hideout, and then Pokemon Tower and beyond.
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Old Feb 3rd, 2013, 9:10:18 PM   #633
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I think I've made up my mind about Spearow... sort of.

After Celadon Gym, Fearow did very well in the Rocket Hideout, Pokemon Tower and that route south of Lavender Town with all those underlevelled Water types. On the way to Fuschia City Fearow OHKOs many things with Drill Peck, and those that survive are usually OHKOed by Double-Edge.

There are definitely times where Dodrio's extra Attack makes a difference when using Drill Peck. Just as a random example, during the Koga fight, Fearow's Drill Peck just failed to OHKO the third Venonat, and it did around 70% to Venomoth. Dodrio would definitely have killed the Venonat and probably the Venomoth too, maybe. There are other examples, although most of these are nearly irrelevent in my opinion (who cares if Drill Peck fails to OHKO some random Bird Keeper's Pidgeotto?). I'm starting to wonder if I should have gone to the Fighting Dojo after the Rocket Hideout. It would basically have been free experience and I might have been better off in these situations. Oh well.

I imagine the power drop would also come into play against trainers like Blaine, where Fearow and Dodrio are relying on raw power rather than type advantages to win. I didn't test Fearow's performance against Blaine though (and honestly, you'll probably be using a Water type against him anyway).

On the other hand, the power drop is meaningless against Sabrina. Drill Peck OHKOs Abra and Kadabra, and Double-Edge OHKOs Alakazam. Alakazam was faster when I battled it so Fearow wasn't a "safe" choice for this battle, but Dodrio has the same Speed as Fearow and virtually the same bulk so it faces the same situation.



Of course, Doduo is just flat out better. The "advantages" of using Spearow are small:
  • Earlier evolution - The extra Attack and Speed are probably meaningless, but the extra bulk would be helpful. Not everything is OHKOed by Fly early on, and Fearow is better equiped for dealing with hits from Pokemon that survive (e.g. Raticate in the Rocket Hideout using Hyper Fang, or even Tackle). I don't think it's enough to convince anyone to use Spearow over Doduo though.
  • Availability - Spearow is more common in RB, but this isn't a huge deal because it's not like Doduo is even that rare. It also doesn't apply in Yellow, where Doduo is more common and comes at a higher possible level.
  • Mirror Move - Doduo can't learn this, but Mirror Move is situational at best. It is mainly useful to conserve PP. For example, if something survives my first attack and then uses something like Tackle in return, I can use Mirror Move to finish them off instead of using PP from my other moves. I barely used it though.
The advantages of using Spearow are dubious at best. But Spearow still does very well and if you were to imagine a hypothetical situation where Doduo doesn't exist...

I think putting Spearow up in High is "justifiable". However, I'm not 100% convinced and it's still on the borderline for me. 90 Attack isn't amazing and it struggles a bit against bulkier opponents, but it still has some good match-ups and is a fast and reasonable powerful attacker for getting through regular trainers with underlevelled crap.

And then I look at the write up Naix did recently and it's very well written, covering most of the main aspects. I think it's also convincing enough to justify a Mid status.

As I've said before in this thread, my policy for Pokemon that I consider to be on the borderline is to default to the lower tier because I see it as the safer choice. So I guess my verdict is: don't revamp the current analysis for now and leave Spearow in Mid, but if anyone else is more passionate about moving Spearow up to High then I'll support that too. That sounds like a bit of a mixed message, but that's just how I feel.

I think I'll leave splitting up Psyduck for now as well. It's not something I care much about at the moment and no-one else seems to either. I might look at it again later though.

So from now on I'm probably just going to go through all of my previous entries and revamp them as required. Some of my earlier ones, like Onix, aren't really that great compared to some of the more recent ones and I'd like to update them. I might redo my Growlithe one too if no-one else does it first, since the consensus seems to be to drop it down from High.
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Old Feb 12th, 2013, 6:45:32 AM   #634
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Triple post/massive bump...

I guess I better start doing these revamps like I said I would.

Starting with:

Onix


The main points of the analysis didn't really change but I added more detail, removed some faulty arguments (like the part at the end where I bring up how Geodude outclasses it which is true but isn't really solid reasoning for Onix's tier placement) and tried to make it look more professional (I found an OMG in my old one -_-).

I'll probably do more revamps when I feel more motivated, but if anyone has any feedback for Onix then feel free to comment.
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Old Feb 12th, 2013, 7:08:37 AM   #635
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Excelent revamp about Onix, it pretty muchs says everything about him.

About Spearow, the main idea of use Spearow over Duduo is catching it early on the game, as Duduo is obvious better than Fearow, but as you pointed, Duduo barely does more than Fearow around the game, and Spearow is not-so-great on the early-mid point of the game.
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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 12:11:38 AM   #636
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@Nyara: Thanks!

I really don't have anything else to say about Spearow. Others can deal with it if they want!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

What do people think of this set for in-game runs?

Poliwrath
Amnesia
Surf
Ice Beam/Blizzard
Psychic/Body Slam

I was just going over some of my old entries to decide which ones to revamp, and Poliwag is one of them. In the old entry I was a bit dismissive of Amnesia and I didn't use it in my playthrough because I evolved it before level 41, but I think this could work out very well. Poliwhirl can be caught at level 40 in Yellow and that's just 1 level away from Amnesia, and then with the excellent coverage of its moves it would be just like Slowbro but with much better Speed in exchange for STAB on Psychic and a few Special points. If you can get this as soon as you get the Super Rod, then the rest of the game would probably be pretty easy for you.

Not sure how viable this would be in RB since the capture level isn't as high (level 23 Poliwhirl is the best you can do I think). I suppose preventing Poliwhirl from evolving until level 41 wouldn't be that bad but I don't really know.

Just a thought, although I really don't think I want to do any more testing in this game!
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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 12:16:47 AM   #637
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Eh I think Earthquake would be better than Body Slam if opting for a Physical Move. I reread your first Poliwag review on page 1, and to be honest I get the feeling that the only battle that using an Amnesia set would change is Lorelei (although Slowbro will still be trouble).
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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 12:35:39 AM   #638
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About Poliwhirl... first thing: I LOVE POLIWHIRL, is one of my favorite Pokémon ever, too bad it doesn't evolve too well (I'm not particulary a fan of Poliwrath, and I dislike Politoed). Poliwhirl's stats before evolving are from being bad, actually, he's really fast, so, nothing will outspeed your Poliwhirl at all, it does have one of highest bulkies of NFE Pokémon, so, it can take a hit or two, and it's attack is usable, and it does have STAB Water Gun and later Surf (and you can still waste some TMs on him), and he does learn Body Slam! With Amnesia he can pretty much solo anything later on the game, except maybe Agata and it's status madness.

If you're gonna use Amnesia, there is not too much point in evolve Poliwhirl, anyway, Poliwrath's new weakness are kinda nasty, you're losing 20 base speed, and the difference of physical bulky is not excesive high to compensate the speed drop.

Amnesia = Stay as Poliwhirl
Not Amnesia = Fast Poliwrath

Don't forget he learns Hypnosis, for your in-game catchs.
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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 12:40:51 AM   #639
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@Hemp Man: I listed Body Slam because Poliwhirl gets it from level up, although the Psychic and Earthquake TMs are probably more useful if they're free, yeah.

If you are talking about just gym leaders and elite 4 members, then I would probably agree with the Lorelei thing. I imagine Amnesia would be more helpful against regular trainers. The Power section I wrote says that its middling stats are a problem, so why not use Amnesia to patch it up? I dunno, I just see a parallel between Poliwag and what happened to Slowpoke. I originally put Slowpoke in Low based on my experiences without Amnesia, but then we moved it up because we decided that Amnesia Slowbro was better than Low. In this case, I put Poliwag (technically Poliwhirl but whatever) in Mid based on my experiences without Amnesia... you see where I'm going with this?

Honestly I don't care that much. Having Poliwag in Mid isn't that big of a deal and doesn't harm the tier list in any way. I just thought it was interesting that's all. My focus at the moment will be revamping my old analyses.
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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 12:46:48 AM   #640
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It depends.

Without TM Support: Great Mid Tier

Poliwag's best option is just remain as it's, once it evolve to Poliwhirl, just aim for the Amnesia, you're gonna do an adobe-avarage job around the game, and when Poliwhirl's stats are starting to show its problem, you're gonna get Amnesia, and that pretty much with Poliwhirl's great speed means you can sweep any trainer, gym leader, and Elite Four. I don't see any reason to evolve Poliwhirl in this case, anyway, Amnesia + High-High Speed + Perfect Coverage + Good Type is just too good to drop in favor of some physical bulk and power.

With TM Support: Good High Tier

Evolve Poliwhirl ASAP, and put it whatever TM you want, you're gonna get a TOP Pokémon until you're near of the Elite Four, were he's just mid tier.
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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 12:40:24 PM   #641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Nyara View Post
It depends.

Without TM Support: Great Mid Tier

Poliwag's best option is just remain as it's, once it evolve to Poliwhirl, just aim for the Amnesia, you're gonna do an adobe-avarage job around the game, and when Poliwhirl's stats are starting to show its problem, you're gonna get Amnesia, and that pretty much with Poliwhirl's great speed means you can sweep any trainer, gym leader, and Elite Four. I don't see any reason to evolve Poliwhirl in this case, anyway, Amnesia + High-High Speed + Perfect Coverage + Good Type is just too good to drop in favor of some physical bulk and power.

With TM Support: Good High Tier

Evolve Poliwhirl ASAP, and put it whatever TM you want, you're gonna get a TOP Pokémon until you're near of the Elite Four, were he's just mid tier.
One of the big problems with the tadpole is the level it comes at. In RB, it comes at a bogus Level 15, while in Yellow, it can range from 5-15. In terms of efficiency, this isn't where it's at. Not to mention you have to trade one for a Jynx anyway. It's Gyarados all over again, without the good points that Gyarados has (trashing endgame and monster stats).
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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 1:09:12 PM   #642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings View Post
One of the big problems with the tadpole is the level it comes at. In RB, it comes at a bogus Level 15, while in Yellow, it can range from 5-15. In terms of efficiency, this isn't where it's at. Not to mention you have to trade one for a Jynx anyway. It's Gyarados all over again, without the good points that Gyarados has (trashing endgame and monster stats).
RainbowBadge nets you the ability to fish on the water segments of Route 23 for up to L40 Poliwhirl in Yellow. Considering Blaine gets utterly steamrolled by any generic water type, Yellow Poliwag's pretty legit to me imo. RB poli... uh... go to hell.
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Old Feb 13th, 2013, 1:14:44 PM   #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam View Post
RainbowBadge nets you the ability to fish on the water segments of Route 23 for up to L40 Poliwhirl in Yellow. Considering Blaine gets utterly steamrolled by any generic water type, Poliwag's pretty legit to me imo.
Access to Ice Beam right away helps a bunch for Poliwhirl at least, and Poliwrath can get Rock Slide if memory serves. So seperate tiers for RB and Y Poliwag sounds good for me.
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Old Feb 14th, 2013, 9:12:36 PM   #644
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Some more revamps!

The Dratini and Yellow Charmander revamps weren't as drastic as the Onix one. I just reworded some parts and removed some information I now see as pointless (like the part in Dratini's where I talk about how being forced to buy only 50 coins at a time slows down the playthrough, seriously who cares?). Some parts weren't changed at all.

Zubat's was fine, although I corrected an error in availability regarding its highest catch level.

I'll do more later.

Dratini


Zubat's availability


Charmander (Yellow)


Comments are welcome.

@ Alice in Strings: Poliwrath doesn't get Rock Slide, but it gets plenty of other things so whatever.

Last edited by atsync; Feb 15th, 2013 at 6:20:49 AM.
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Old Feb 14th, 2013, 9:23:05 PM   #645
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Just to nitpicket, Charmander should have Misty added as a match-up in his review...even if he does get wrecked lol.
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Old Feb 14th, 2013, 10:50:36 PM   #646
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Nitpicking as well in the Dratini review. You say that Dragonair can roast the Venonats in Koga's Gym if it has Fire Blast, but you get Fire Blast from Blaine, and in order to get that, you need to be able to Surf, which is obtained after beating Koga. So Dragonair will never be able to use Fire Blast on his Venonats.
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Old Feb 15th, 2013, 2:35:29 AM   #647
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Charmander with Dig can beat Staryu at least. And if Pikachu/Abra paralyzes Starmie and does a little damage, Charmander might be able to finish it off.

Not that Charmander's good against Misty, but due to the nature of the early Gym battles, even a Pokémon with a bad matchup can help the team win.
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Old Feb 15th, 2013, 6:18:28 AM   #648
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I revamped my old Mr. Mime entry although I didn't change it a lot. I did give Thunderbolt a bit more of a mention, but not too much because I don't want to give the impression that Mr. Mime NEEDS Thunderbolt (it helps but I'd rather give it to Zapdos or another Electric type).

Mr. Mime


EDIT: I was originally going to not bother with Misty stuff for Charmander but I've decided that it should be mentioned after all. Given that it is difficult to grind up both Charmander and a Grass type for countering Misty, it may be necessary to ditch the Grass type and beat her using other means just so you don't sacrifice too much time and experience, and this may involve sending Charmander in to do something. Oh and I sorted out the other stuff that was mentioned. More revamps should be coming soon.
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Old Feb 16th, 2013, 11:40:13 PM   #649
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I didn't read through ALL 26 pages of this thread, but I think Squirtle deserves to be on a level of his own. Uber tier or something. Bulbasaur, Abra, and Charmander, Seel, Diglett, and everything else in top tier are not even close.

And seriously, what is Seel doing in top tier anyways? Can't even get him until you have 6 badges, can you? You can get Staryu with the Superrod on the way down to Fuschia, and it can learn Psychic, ThunderBolt, IceBeam, and Surf. Or confuse ray if you like. And it has the god-mode Psychic type which certainly helps. But both are outclassed by Squirtle so hard it's not even funny.

You can easily defeat all 8 gyms with only Squirtle (skipping all non-mandatory trainers as well), use a Masterball on Zapdos, and defeat the E4 in under 3 hours. I've done so. The only tricky gym is Lt. Surge, but once you get to level 28 (it's been awhile) I think it is (which happens naturally if you go the right path), you outspeed Raichu and can Dig to victory.
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Old Feb 16th, 2013, 11:49:35 PM   #650
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Pretty sure the tier list does not count 'solo the game by itself'.

That's not mentioning how Nidoking probably does it better
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