Nidoqueen (BW2 Revamp) (QC 0/3)

[The Unlucky one]

Nidoqueen

[Overview]

• As a bulky attacker and a Terrakion switch-in, She faces tough competition from Landorus-T
• Landorus-T has more attack, and access to intimidate making it a good Offensive Pivot switch from Terrakion.
• However, It beats Landorus-T with access to remove toxic spikes as well as having solid coverage.
• It also faces tough competition against Gliscor—who has access to reliable recovery and a Ground-Type Immunity.
• It beats Gliscor as it absorbs toxic spikes and has a more powerful offensive presence.
• In the field of being a Toxic Spikes setter, Nidoqueen faces competition with Tentacruel, who can also spin. However, Nidoqueen gains a niche over it as it can easily scare switch-ins with Sheer Force Life Orb boosted coverage.
• Nidoqueen is great on Balanced/Bulky Offensive teams as well as stall teams as it can either set up Toxic Spikes or act like a Hydreigon of sorts

[Set]
Set Name: Defensive
Move 1: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Fire Blast / Ice Beam
Move 4: Dragon Tail / Roar
Item: Black Sludge
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD


[Set Comments]

• Nidoqueen can use a fully defensive set; going against Terrakion the best while being a good setter of Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes
• It is reasonably bulky, absorbs toxic spikes, and can use it.
• The reason to use this for other Stealth Rock setters like Landorus-T is because of its capability to use Toxic Spikes as well as different coverage.
• Stealth Rock or Toxic Spikes would be main move of the set. Nidoqueen gives valuable support with either hazard given.
• Earth Power is the main STAB move in this case. Sheer Force Earth Powers hurt.
• Fire Blast gives coverage vs Skarmory, Ferro and Forretress. Ice Beam hits Dragons.
• Dragon Tail can stop setup sweepers in their tracks. Roar can deal with Substitute Set up sweepers like SubDD Gyarados.

[Additional Comments]

• Nidoqueen can opt to run Thunderbolt over its coverage moves to hit Gyarados, Keldeo, and Politoed harder.
• You can also opt for Earthquake to hit Tentacruel and Jirachi harder. However, this forces you to use a Relaxed nature having you getting outsped by Skarmory.
• Optimal partners to this set are Jellicent who loves Toxic Spikes, Celebi is also another excellent abuser while checking rain teams. Jirachi also love Toxic Spikes and gives Nidoqueen Wish support.
• Blissey also loves getting Terrakion out of the way while giving Wish to Nidoqueen.
• Super Fang is also another interesting option to deal damage to pokemon you usually can not hit.

[Other Options]

• Nidoqueen can opt to run a fully offensive EV Spread. However, it is outclassed by Nidoking as well as not checking Terrakion -- its main niche.
• Nidoqueen can also utilize a toxic stall set.
• Taunt

[Checks And Counters]

• Problems vs Rain.
• Rotom-W
• Lati@s
• Psychic-Types in general
• Powerful enough special attacks.
• Can wear it down easily.
• Checks are easy to come by due to the sheer amount of weaknesses Nidoqueen has.
• Landorus can easily check it.

[AccidentalGreed]

IMO at the moment the two sets look a little too similar to each other. They can be merged into one set, with Stealth Rock slashed with Toxic Spikes, and the Bold nature being slashed with Modest (though it may end up in AC depending on how QC discussion does) so it saves up on the amount of writing you have to do. You can mention how a specific EV spread KOes this threat and that threat in the AC as well.

I would also mention running 36 EVs in Speed so Nidoqueen gets the jump on uninvested base 80 Pokemon as well as Heatran, and also mention or slash Earthquake as an option to hit Calm Mind Jirachi.

[jc104]

"The EV Spread gives it the optimal SpA it needs to OHKO Breloom with Ice Beam."

Nope. You easily OHKO Breloom already (or at least the standard ones). I'm not in any way aversed to adding SpA evs though; Nidoqueen is a pretty powerful pokemon. Perhaps we should be optimising defenses to take on terrakion, and then putting the rest into SpA, or something.

edit: and yeah, what AG said. One set will do. However, I'm fairly sure Earth Power is adequate against CM Jirachi, and I'm very sure a modest nature is a bad idea with that spread - a bold nature and SpA evs would do much better.

[alexwolf]

This thing surely needs some testing. The only two possible sets i can see for Nidoqueen are: 1) A bulky attacker that can shiled offensive teams from Terrakion, while maintaining offensive pressure due to its good coverage and power and 2) an all out defensive set for stall teams that desperately need a Terrakion counter and a T-Spikes absorber/user. Atm the first set seems to be the most useable and here is what i have in mind:

• With 252 HP EVs and 68 Def EVs Nidoqueen avoids a 2HKO from CB Terrakion's CC after SR. I think this is a good benchmark of bulk for Nidoqueen
• Then we should find how many Speed and power Nidoqueen wants to break through some important Pokemon.
• With a moveset of Earth Power, Ice Beam, Flamethrower / Fire Blast, Thunderbolt / Sludge Wave (for Rotom-W mainly, which otherwise becomes a very good check, and for Celebi, which doesn't mind the other moves too much) the only Pokemon that can wall Nidoqueen are Chansey and Blissey, while almost nothing can set-up on it.
• Life Orb should be the item of choice due to the power and the lack of recoil

So what Speed should offensive Nidoqueen have? The best Speed benchmarks i can think of now are 84 Spe EVs to outspeed SpD Rotom-W, and 40 Spe EVs to outspeed RestTalk Gyarados. So the two spread will look like this:

- 252 HP / 68 Def / 104 SpA / 84 Spe with a Modest nature
- 252 HP / 68 Def / 148 SpA / 40 Spe with a Modest nature


As for the defensive set a simple 252 HP / 252 Def spread should suffice, but we have to see if this set is actually viable...

[AccidentalGreed]

Oh yeah, and when you update this, don't hesitate to slash Life Orb with Leftovers; the Sheer Force effect in addition to the power boost makes Nidoqueen hit pretty hard, even without investment in Special Attack. The power boost is arguably as valuable as the recovery Black Sludge provides, since it allows that extra push for some KOes, such as against Specially Defensive Heatran and a chance to OHKO Haxorus with SR.

[Pocket]

Here are some benchmark calcs for Modest Nidoqueen @ LO:

148 SpA: 50% min to 252 HP / 252 SpD+ Hippowdon with Ice Beam; 50% chance to OHKO Tentacruel after SR with Earth Power.
68 SpA: 2HKO to max HP / max SpD+ Ferrothorn in Rain with Fire Blast
12 SpA: 2HKO to max HP / max SpD+ Tyranitar and Jirachi with Earth Power

Also Sludge Wave deserves a big mention for hitting Rotom-W hardest. You want at least 68 SpA to 3HKO the specially-defensive ones.

[Cherub Agent]

If Nidoqueen is used on a stall team I'd mention how much it adores Wish support from the blobs, due to its Fighting resistance and no recovery of its own when using Life Orb

[The Unlucky one]

fuck, thats a lot of stuff. I will take your inputs in once i get home and work on OO and C&C. Does anyone have an idea for the OO of Nidoqueen cuz i have no friggin clue.

[The Unlucky one]

Alright, did the suggestions that i saw fit. I'm not too sure about merging the two sets though. It seems good but I might wanna get more opinions on that.

[papai noel]

I think you should mention Thunder and Blizzard on AC of the first set. They're much better than Thunderbolt and Ice Beam when used under rain and hail, respectively. If you disagree, at least put in OO, there's nothing bad about mentioning them.

[The Unlucky one]

Ready for QC Checks

[alexwolf]

Remove SR and slash Sludge Wave instead. Rotom-W is popular enough to warrant the use of this move, and so is SpD Celebi on rain teams, which also walls Nidoqueen without Sludge Wave. SR is better left to a Pokemon that gets more switch-in opportunities and doesn't have such a specific role as Nidoqueen. Also mention in the AC how Sludge Wave should be used with the spread that allows Nidoqueen to outspeed SpD Rotom-W.

[ginganinja]

Actually I rather like SR, sorta like how a SR 3 Attacks Mamoswine works, switching in, tanking something, setting up SR, and then threatening with my 3 offensive moves. This isn't Nidoking here (which potentially is a better offensive special attacker), its Nidoqueen, with better overall defences which gives it a good chance at setting up SR.

If there was ever a move I was unsure on however, it would have to be Toxic Spikes. I used to be an avid Toxic Spikes user, and still love them, but the metagame just isn't kind towards it, with Tentacruel or a spinner being on so many teams (due to Deoxys-D), as well as Steel types (due to the dragon increase) as well as flying types / levitating mons. If the metagame was more suitable towards Toxic Spikes, I would have no problem, but in practise I find that its not really worth it at this current stage in the metagame.

[alexwolf]

ginga my point was that Nidoqueen won't find that many switch-in opportnities, so it will take some time before setting up SR, which is not ideal for offensive teams. Its neither fast enough (Terrakion, Aero, and Azelf), nor bulky enough and with enough resistances to set it up (see Hippo, Heatran and Lando-T). And if the opponent has Terrakion you would want to make sure that you don't switch Nidoqueen into anything else, as you then get to ko range of CB and +2 Terrakion. Pretty bad SR setter if you ask me...

[ginganinja]

So why use it as a special attacker when Nidoking hits harder etc etc

The point is you are picking Nidoqueen for her bulk as well as the ability to hit very hard with Sheer Force (otherwise you are facing severe competition from Nidoking). Ergo, you have the bulk to set up SR. It worked fine in my testing, since I had the free slot anyway and giving it SR meant I could free up a slot on my Terrakion / Heatran / Tyranitar etc etc. Not drop dead amazing, but not bad either.

[Pocket]

I can actually see Nidoqueen being an excellent Toxic Spiker, primarily because it can threaten all grounded Poison with a super-effective STAB Earth Power or Fire Blast.

[The Unlucky one]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

I can actually see Nidoqueen being an excellent Toxic Spiker, primarily because it can threaten all grounded Poison with a super-effective STAB Earth Power or Fire Blast.

"as well as hitting hard enough with the Sheer Force boosted attacks."

This is pretty much Nidoqueen's niche when it comes to a TSpikes setter. It can hit the problems to Tspikes (Think Dnite/Tentacruel/Tran) for SE damage. I should probably expound on it more as it the main bulk of its niche. In hindsight, I believe an offensive spread for Tspikes might actually work better if that is it's goal. I wanna get some approval before merging the sets together as I am scared of a little slashitis.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

So why use it as a special attacker when Nidoking hits harder etc etc

The point is you are picking Nidoqueen for her bulk as well as the ability to hit very hard with Sheer Force (otherwise you are facing severe competition from Nidoking). Ergo, you have the bulk to set up SR. It worked fine in my testing, since I had the free slot anyway and giving it SR meant I could free up a slot on my Terrakion / Heatran / Tyranitar etc etc. Not drop dead amazing, but not bad either.

The point is you use offensive Nidoqueen to check Terrakion, simple as that. So it is better to save your health to face Terrakion and use a better SR setter, because as i said Nidoqueen is neither bulky enough nor fast enough to make for a good SR setter. Of 'course it is viable as you said, but not better than Thunderbolt and Sludge Wave which provide essential coverage.

And yeah T-Spikes are fine in the support set, but slash SR too there, probably first. Dragon Tail should also be somewhere there in the main set but not so sure where...

[ginganinja]

O.k a few things.

Shrang, Lavos, myself and alexwolf all believe the defesive set is fine. However, we would like the set to look like this...

[Set]
Set Name: Defensive
Move 1: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Fire Blast / Ice Beam
Move 4: Dragon Tail / Roar
Item: Black Sludge
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

With Relaxed nature in AC, along with Super Fang and Thunderbolt

With the above changes, Nidoqueen can take on Terrakion pretty darn well, as well as setting up the ever important SR while warding off opposing Spikers (think Skarmory, Ferrothoron) thanks to Fire Blast. You also prevent set up opportunities via Dragon Tail (phazing out dragons that might try and set up) making you a fairly decent wall. Ice Beam is slashed with Fire Blast for the dragons, but in the process Skarmory / Ferrothorn / Forry become more of a hassle, and Roar is picked since Dragon Tail overlaps and you can phaze out Sub users and shit.

I personally would like EQ a mention in AC mostly because it hits Jirachi and Tentacruel hard, but you would need a Relaxed nature for that iirc. Speaking of Relaxed, its an AC mention because it drops your speed enough that Skarm outspeeds you (iirc) which is something to be avoided.

Hold off on Specially Offensive Tank as QC needs to discuss that set more.

[alexwolf]

Also mention Tbolt in the AC of the defensive set and slash Flamethrower before Fire Blast.

EDIT: Actually only one fire move will be mentioned in the main set. Unless Nido gets any specific OHKO-2HKO with Fire Blast it should go to AC and replaced by Flamethrower.

Fuck that, Fire Blast stays and Flamethrower goes to AC, as Fire Blast OHKOes standard Ferro.

[The Unlucky one]

I also think Roar can be applicable in the AC for SubDD Gyarados who can be problematic to Nidoqueen and setup. Not much can go against a +2 / +2 Gyara.

[ginganinja]

I also think Roar can be applicable in the AC for SubDD Gyarados who can be problematic to Nidoqueen and setup.

Didn't I just tell you to slash it in my previous post?

[Set]
Set Name: Defensive
Move 1: Stealth Rock / Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Fire Blast / Ice Beam
Move 4: Dragon Tail / Roar
Item: Black Sludge
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[The Unlucky one]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Didn't I just tell you to slash it in my previous post?

sorry im retarded. just quickly ran through your post. will edit the OP with that set soon.

[ginganinja]

O.k, I am rejecting the Specially Offensive Nidoqueen set. Sure, Nidoqueen has nice coverage, but that was it really. It was an unreliable Terrakion check (something I would actually use Nidoqueen FOR) since Sub Salac would clean you and id occasionally run into Deoxys-D teams which would get up Spikes which would hinder it going toe to toe with CB Terrakion. Its lack of recovery was frustrating, and I felt limited in what I could safely bring it in on. It also goes without saying that it struggled against Rain teams as well, and I didn't encounter any Toxic Spikes teams which Nidoqueen could absorb.

In the end, I switched it with Defensive Nidoqueen and it worked fine, since I could feel more confortable switching into powerful neutral hits while still having the Sheer Force ability to hit hard without Life Orb. I much preferred it to the Specially Offensive Nidoqueen. I still think the specially offensive sets are also done better by Nidoking, but whatever, I really disliked using the set :(

Fully supporting defensive Nidoqueen as stated in an earlier post tho

[PK Gaming]

Seconding what ginganinja said. Specially Offensive Nidoqueen is just unremarkable in OU. There isn't much it can do outside of acting as an "ok' Terrakion check and an "ok" Special Attacker. Even with those qualities, its really slow and it gets mauled by fast paced offensive teams... not something i'd use on a regular team. I wouldn't even say its strictly outclassed by anything (I do agree with Ginga that King is probably straight up better) but that doesn't mean its any good either.

The standard defensive set is ok in my books though.