GSC In-game tiers

[Nyara]

The best way to beat Whitney is just carrying a Geodude or Onix, with Geodude you can almost beat her's Miltank without problem, but you're risking a bit if you're underleveled, but with Onix you're 100% sure of overcome the cow. Thunder Wave, Mud-Slap, Sand-Attack, Smoke Screen, and similar moves also does the same good job against her, and you can also put her's Miltank to Sleep, too. Machop is just the desesperate plan when you din't trained a Ground Pokémon and you're too underleveled to take a hit (all you need is to being able to take a single hit).

As for Jasmine, Mud-Slap against the Magnemites, and Surf/Fire Punch or Bubblebeam pretty muchs ends her, as her's Magnemites can't just take a ground attack, and Steelix can't really take non-resisted special attacks at all (and taking in account everything and Shuckle will be faster...), any starter, even Chikorita can really harm Steelix with a bit of support (set a Reflect, proceed to Razor Leaf, heal the damage, finish him).

[neilymon]

whoa - a whole lot of good information there.

@Lucchini: Interesting point about Machop potentially not being worth training the whole game if you can't get Machamp (i.e. no trading). Sounds like there are enough alternatives to Miltank, so. . .what better long-game Pokemon are worth gaining exp in Whitney's gym?

On my next non-Totodile playthrough, I'll catch a Tentacool (too lazy to go back after Chuck and get a Slowbro) and STAB Surf away Steelix. Then I'll have to figure out whether it's worth leveling up when I can get Red Gyarados right after - I suspect the answer is no.

@Nyara: I feel like Onix isn't worth leveling unless you can evolve it. On the other hand, Geodude + a bird with Mud-Slap should be more than enough to beat Miltank. Should I be carrying Gastly in my party after Sprout Tower? Again, I wonder if it's worth the effort leveling up if I can't get Gengar.

Basically, I'm fully convinced about Geodude, Abra, and Red Gyarados being worth getting every time on an efficient Crystal runthrough. The other Pokemon largely depend on your starter, so I'm trying to figure out what the best 3-4 options are. After Chuck, it's very easy to run back and catch something you couldn't earlier, so I'm open to anything (trying Tauros and Heracross right now).

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat neilymon

whoa - a whole lot of good information there.

@Lucchini: Interesting point about Machop potentially not being worth training the whole game if you can't get Machamp (i.e. no trading). Sounds like there are enough alternatives to Miltank, so. . .what better long-game Pokemon are worth gaining exp in Whitney's gym?

On my next non-Totodile playthrough, I'll catch a Tentacool (too lazy to go back after Chuck and get a Slowbro) and STAB Surf away Steelix. Then I'll have to figure out whether it's worth leveling up when I can get Red Gyarados right after - I suspect the answer is no.

@Nyara: I feel like Onix isn't worth leveling unless you can evolve it. On the other hand, Geodude + a bird with Mud-Slap should be more than enough to beat Miltank. Should I be carrying Gastly in my party after Sprout Tower? Again, I wonder if it's worth the effort leveling up if I can't get Gengar.

Basically, I'm fully convinced about Geodude, Abra, and Red Gyarados being worth getting every time on an efficient Crystal runthrough. The other Pokemon largely depend on your starter, so I'm trying to figure out what the best 3-4 options are. After Chuck, it's very easy to run back and catch something you couldn't earlier, so I'm open to anything (trying Tauros and Heracross right now).

Red Gyarados is a Jeigen (yay Fire Emblem reference). It's really good when you first get it, as it'll probably be a few levels ahead of your crew, but Gyarados wasn't really gifted with stats that Water types enjoy in Gen 2. True, it wrecks things with its Atk stat, but that SpAtk stat...Base 60 is going to really show later on in the game. It also eats up experience like no tomorrow (it's in the Slow Experience group). Level 40 Gyarados requires almost 2000 more experience to level up than the next slowest group (Medium-Slow), and it just gets worse from there. It contributes well as a Surfer right when you get it because it's ten levels ahead of every other Pokemon it meets when you get it, but once the level curve catches up with it, SE Surf isn't going to be such a surefire victory anymore. Not to mention Blaine's Magmar messes Gyarados up with T-Punch...

Mind you, it does still pack really good IVs, so there's that...

Geodude's interesting in that it's probably the best Ground type you can get prior to the E4 (unless I'm forgetting someone...), but it does get stuck with a lot of underpowered moves.

The answer to your Miltank problems might be closer than you think. Wooper does a great job at stopping Rollout damage with its resist, but doesn't really do anything back. On the flipside, in Crystal, Phanpy can take Rollout damage and use Mud Slap to ruin Miltank's accuracy, letting the others kill it with ease. Frankly Mud Slap itself is the answer to your Miltank problems. If it can't hit you, then it can't build up Rollout.

[TM13IceBeam]

Thrash isn't a legitimate attack option for Gyarados anymore? And SE Surf's still pretty good from time to time. I'm lazy to do calcs right now (it's effing 2am here and i need my sleep), but I'm pretty sure Hyper Beam/Return shits all over Magmar and it's pitiful defense anyway.

One of the main draws to IGT Machop is that it's female, hence it basically doesn't care about Attract. Problem is, thanks to how GSC handles gender, female Machops have pretty shit Attack IVs (0-3, iirc), so I probably won't consider using it in the long term anyway, even if it could become Machamp / boosted exp yadayada. Machop's useful as an emergency member against Whitney (similar to Rocky against Falkner), and is easier to obtain in G/S since the trade is the ridiculously common Drowzee instead. Miltank just needs some specific counters (other ones include Curse Gastly if you don't mind dragging it for 10 levels, as well as Geodude).

Speaking of Geodude, it's not really stuck with underpowered moves: Rock Throw is pretty good offense for a while, Magnitude has an average power of 71 and Rollout can be boosted by Defense Curl. Then we have Selfdestruct for emergencies. It's not that bad.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Thrash isn't a legitimate attack option for Gyarados anymore? And SE Surf's still pretty good from time to time. I'm lazy to do calcs right now (it's effing 2am here and i need my sleep), but I'm pretty sure Hyper Beam/Return shits all over Magmar and it's pitiful defense anyway.

One of the main draws to IGT Machop is that it's female, hence it basically doesn't care about Attract. Problem is, thanks to how GSC handles gender, female Machops have pretty shit Attack IVs (0-3, iirc), so I probably won't consider using it in the long term anyway, even if it could become Machamp / boosted exp yadayada. Machop's useful as an emergency member against Whitney (similar to Rocky against Falkner), and is easier to obtain in G/S since the trade is the ridiculously common Drowzee instead. Miltank just needs some specific counters (other ones include Curse Gastly if you don't mind dragging it for 10 levels, as well as Geodude).

Speaking of Geodude, it's not really stuck with underpowered moves: Rock Throw is pretty good offense for a while, Magnitude has an average power of 71 and Rollout can be boosted by Defense Curl. Then we have Selfdestruct for emergencies. It's not that bad.

I did say that its attack stat was incredible, but it's not nearly as good at being a Water type as...say...Tentacruel, who shits all over things with Surf.

It's just a shame that it doesn't get Rock Slide off of that nummy Attack Score...it's still pretty darn good, though, and Magnitude is still a great move for endgame (sometimes doing more damage than EQ!)

Miltank's big fear, as I stated in my previous post and others have stated as well, is Paralysis, Sleep and accuracy drops. Gastly's bulk isn't great at all, so I don't know if it could handle a Rollout chain from Miltank. Curse is still an interesting idea, though.

[TM13IceBeam]

Gastly's pretty simple. Grind to L16, switch in on Miltank, Curse, do whatever it want. You can add on with other things like Poisonpowder from Bayleef.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Gastly's pretty simple. Grind to L16, switch in on Miltank, Curse, do whatever it want. You can add on with other things like Poisonpowder from Bayleef.

That's right, I forgot that you can switch out after applying a Curse. There's also the problem of getting said Gastly to that level in the first place with your primary attack being the pathetic Lick. Still seems easier to spam Mud Slap or something...

[TM13IceBeam]

Drowzees and their lack of Confusion say hi, perhaps?

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

Drowzees and their lack of Confusion say hi, perhaps?

Hypnosis would be a bother, but it could work. It'd take a while, because of Drowzee's decent bulk, though.

[Nyara]

I do feel Red Gyarados is just High Tier, anyway, he's maybe the best HM Slave of the game, but he's good at fighting stuff, but he's not that great on the Elite Four, he comes later, it's level-up moves are horrible, and it depends of Return (that will not have good power until really late on Kanto) to deal maximum damage (also, lol FE reference, I feel more as a Jeigen that Dugtrio LV31 on RBY than other thing).

[Lucchini]

Originally Posted by Fat TM13IceBeam

One of the main draws to IGT Machop is that it's female, hence it basically doesn't care about Attract. Problem is, thanks to how GSC handles gender, female Machops have pretty shit Attack IVs (0-3, iirc), so I probably won't consider using it in the long term anyway, even if it could become Machamp / boosted exp yadayada. Machop's useful as an emergency member against Whitney (similar to Rocky against Falkner), and is easier to obtain in G/S since the trade is the ridiculously common Drowzee instead. Miltank just needs some specific counters (other ones include Curse Gastly if you don't mind dragging it for 10 levels, as well as Geodude).

The in-game trades have fixed IVs, so Machop will always have 3 attack IVs (in GS as well as Crystal). If we talk efficiency, it could be brought up that you don't bother running the stats of your Pokemon through an IV calculator - not that it would take a long time if you're on the computer anyway, but having to farm for a Pokemon with desired stats might not reward you with saved time knowing the time invested into catching the right one. But it's right that any wild Machop is almost guaranteed to have better stats.

The best way to train Gastly is probably through switch-outs. Will take a long time until it gets Shadow Ball for an acceptable form of offence, and should be ignored entirely if the Gengar trade evolution is impossible (no elemental punches and special moves until postgame).

Gastly surely can inflict Curse on Miltank but it will trigger Rollout, so your team better survive that (not sure if Whitney will use a potion and interrupt the Rollout cycle, but you can always, like, hit it a few times when it's setting up, an' stuff).

Gyarados does a great job against the E4, now that you mention it. Can switch into plenty of things with that excellent defensive typing and bases, and Return/Surf/even Icy Wind for Dragonites (2HKOs with ease iirc) a lot of otherwise tough Pokemon.

I dare anybody to beat Gyarados's performance in gyms 5 to 8, though (besides, like, Kadabra).

[Hemp Man]

Yeah I've been playing around with Gyarados and you can get him as soon as you get Surf, and hes great at Gyms 5-8. Merely OK against the Elite 4, but hes helpful against the Kanto gyms as well.

[Alice in Strings]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

The in-game trades have fixed IVs, so Machop will always have 3 attack IVs (in GS as well as Crystal). If we talk efficiency, it could be brought up that you don't bother running the stats of your Pokemon through an IV calculator - not that it would take a long time if you're on the computer anyway, but having to farm for a Pokemon with desired stats might not reward you with saved time knowing the time invested into catching the right one. But it's right that any wild Machop is almost guaranteed to have better stats.

The best way to train Gastly is probably through switch-outs. Will take a long time until it gets Shadow Ball for an acceptable form of offence, and should be ignored entirely if the Gengar trade evolution is impossible (no elemental punches and special moves until postgame).

Gastly surely can inflict Curse on Miltank but it will trigger Rollout, so your team better survive that (not sure if Whitney will use a potion and interrupt the Rollout cycle, but you can always, like, hit it a few times when it's setting up, an' stuff).

Gyarados does a great job against the E4, now that you mention it. Can switch into plenty of things with that excellent defensive typing and bases, and Return/Surf/even Icy Wind for Dragonites (2HKOs with ease iirc) a lot of otherwise tough Pokemon.

I dare anybody to beat Gyarados's performance in gyms 5 to 8, though (besides, like, Kadabra).

Feraligatr beats Gyarados in all of those gyms; outspeeds and wrecks the Magnemites and Steelix in Jasmine's gym, wrecks Primape and kills Poliwrath with Slash in Chuck's Gym, destroys Piloswine and resists Ice moves, slashing its way to a victory there, and with Ice Punch, blows its way through the Dragonairs and can outlast the Kingdra, something that Icy Wind Gyarados can't do, especially with that T-Bolt Dragonair there.

Icy Wind 2HKO's the Dragonites, but Outrage does a ton of damage in return, as does Thunder (a surefire OHKO to Gyarados, and 100% accurate if Lance's Gyarados gets rain going, so that's one Dragonite it can't kill in the rain), and Lance's own Gyarados packs rain boosted Hydro Pump, which will hurt even with a resistance and Gyarados' terrible SpAtk. It's only ok in Kanto, and again, sucks up precious experience like nothing else in a game where you're lucky to get to Level 60 by the time you fight Red without grinding. Being slowed down by Gyarados' slow as balls experience gains doesn't only hurt itself, it hurts the entire party. This is a big problem, and I don't really feel Red Gyarados is worth the effort in the long run just because it's Shiny. His low SpAtk really shows in the Red fight, though (but that's because you're roughly fifteen levels under him :/)

[Hemp Man]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Feraligatr beats Gyarados in all of those gyms; outspeeds and wrecks the Magnemites and Steelix in Jasmine's gym, wrecks Primape and kills Poliwrath with Slash in Chuck's Gym, destroys Piloswine and resists Ice moves, slashing its way to a victory there, and with Ice Punch, blows its way through the Dragonairs and can outlast the Kingdra, something that Icy Wind Gyarados can't do, especially with that T-Bolt Dragonair there.

I don't think he was referring to starter Pokemon. Although, I only agree to an extent. I feel like Gyarados does better against Chuck due to his better Atk stat and resistance to Fighting. Also, Gyarados may not resist Ice but he has better Special bulk and hits Pryce Pokemon harder due to higher Atk stat.

[TM13IceBeam]

Croconaw's essentially god once you arrive at Ecruteak anyway thanks to roflsurf and you get ice punch from the previous city. Gyarados can't compare with Feraligatr, but I don't see how Feraligatr's awesomeness at Chuck and co. force Gyarados down: if Gyarados doesn't have as much of a problem beating them as Feraligatr, then I don't see why it should be sandbagged as a result.

Also Outrage hits Gyarados's stronger defense from Dragonite's weaker offense, it's 90 power, and Icy Wind happens to slow Dragonite down so Gyara can KO. Lance's Gyarados is pretty easy to counter: as his lead, all you need to do is to lead off with an electric-type or *insert derp here with Thunderpunch*, OHKO, and take care of the rest. RD Gyara isn't much of an issue imo, and neither is Thunder.

[x42bn6]

Originally Posted by Fat Alice in Strings

Feraligatr beats Gyarados in all of those gyms; outspeeds and wrecks the Magnemites and Steelix in Jasmine's gym, wrecks Primape and kills Poliwrath with Slash in Chuck's Gym, destroys Piloswine and resists Ice moves, slashing its way to a victory there, and with Ice Punch, blows its way through the Dragonairs and can outlast the Kingdra, something that Icy Wind Gyarados can't do, especially with that T-Bolt Dragonair there.

I think the problem with Gyarados as a "gym sweeper" is that there are a lot of other Water types who can do better than Gyarados, not just Feraligatr (who is flat-out awesome and a starter to boot). Pokémon such as Tentacruel, Slowbro and Lapras stand out as good alternatives - good bulk but stronger Special Attack. None of them like the Thunderbolt Dragonair, but then again, they aren't 4x weak to it so it's still an improvement.

The only real advantage of Gyarados is its great Attack stat, making it a great user of Return. However, to me, this has always been inferior in in-game utility to a Gyarados with 3-4 HMs on it (and saving Return for something like your starter). I mean, the temptation is so high, shiny or not...

[JSND]

Return's best user is maybe Tauros, although it already shows how plenty Strength is during in game(80 STAB is AMAZING in GSC)

Maybe Gyarados best move is like.... Surf, Strength, filler. its not like you need anything beyond that, really(other than expensive moves). Its Gym match up seems rather average in the end since the remaining gyms are a joke other than Clair

And speaking of Dragonair, Chikorita is surprisingly really good against Clair, since it can do relatively well with the non SE Dragonair with Hax Body Slam and it essentialy laugh at Kingdra's Water STAB, giving it better survival chance. At times Fera is pretty troubled by Hyper Beam

[Antihaxxer]

Every trainer except Red is a joke in GSC, I never had a problem for 99% of the game ....

Gyarados also likes Trash (better than Strength and better PP + multi turn) and Surf. Other moves are almost useless (Thunder + Rain Dance ? Zap Cannon ? HM slave ?)

[Hemp Man]

Originally Posted by Fat JSND

Its Gym match up seems rather average in the end since the remaining gyms are a joke other than Clair

Originally Posted by Fat Antihaxxer

Every trainer except Red is a joke in GSC, I never had a problem for 99% of the game ....

Basically, GSC is a cake walk. Hell Red is only though because hes over leveled. Any Ground types walls Pikachu, Steel type walls Venusuar, Ghost type walls Snorlax, Dark type walls Espeon, etc.

[neilymon]

i don't think anyone here disagrees that GSC is easy. i do think you can make it more interesting by going straight from gym to gym and mostly avoiding trainers and wild encounters, so you'll have a fairly underleveled team by the time you get to the E4.

on the most recent playthrough, i got the red gyarados right after beating Morty. throw surf on him and he can 2HKO steelix without any leveling up. he's useful, though not stellar, against the E4. basically, unless you're getting lapras, i don't think it's worth raising another water-type in crystal if your goal is to beat the game as quickly as possible.

[Lucchini]

Gyarados hasn't got a whole lot to fear in Johto really. Just two Magnemites, T-bolt Dragonair and Thunder Dragonite.

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

Basically, GSC is a cake walk. Hell Red is only though because hes over leveled. Any Ground types walls Pikachu, Steel type walls Venusuar, Ghost type walls Snorlax, Dark type walls Espeon, etc.

"Any steel/dark-type" isn't very helpful because you're not very likely to be training one. There's Sneasel, but I don't think it'll do a very good job against Espeon unless you've been saving that Shadow Ball TM.

Venusaur seems to enjoy spamming Solarbeam without using Sunny Day so any flier with Fly can avoid being attacked entirely. Misdreavus is there to trivialise Snorlax if you don't have Gastly.

That just leaves Espeon, Charizard and Blastoise, and they can be pretty tough even with the right resistances. Espeon is probably the toughest one.

[Hemp Man]

I stalled Snorlax with a Level 16 Gastly using Curse.

Venusaur only has Grass moves, which are resisted by several types. Hell, a Sunny Day actually increases its Fire weakness, aiding its own demise. Or as you said, Fly can avoid his SolarBeams.

Espeon I managed to beat with Houndour. Houndour came a little late at Kanto and underleveled but after a little babying he was decent. He's also pretty good at grinding at Sabrina's gym lol.

[Alice in Strings]

Yo, I'm getting my Crystal Version's save battery replaced, and I plan to run through the game again. Any Pokemon you guys want me to test?

[neilymon]

this may sound silly, but i'd be curious if you caught a Pinsir or Scyther early on (you'd have to start on a TuThSa) and see how useful it was

[Google Knight]

Miltank is not on the list. Can I do it?