CAP 5 - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[srk1214]

Everyone currently freaking out about Sand, thinking it's more threatening to Sun than Rain....

y'all crazy

Solid Sand players have lost many a match to SunTrio teams. It's a much more even match up than Sun v Rain at the moment.

That is all.

[jas61292]

Originally Posted by Fat Yilx

...I strongly feel that some people are overthinking the impact of weather....

...making a mon weak to a type does not increase [that type's] usage....

I don't have too much to add as far as specific typings at this point, but I really want to emphasize these points that Yilx made. I feel a lot of people are trying to do way too much with typing alone and are way overthinking the impact that weather has in order to support typings or reject typings. Almost every single weather related argument has an equal and opposite counter argument.

Take Fire type for example. One person could argue that it is bad because it is water weak which Sun doesn't want to be going against ran. On the other hand, someone could argue that no type benifits more from sun, and since we want to be sure it sees more use on sun than elsewhere, it is a good typing. Such an opposite can be found almost every time someone tries to make an argument purely based on weather effects. We need to focus more on what potential a type brings to sun not simply how it interacts with weather. We have a bunch more stages to fix up and problems we have. A single type weakness (or lack of resistance) does not make a type useless to our purposes if it has the potential to help sun with a role that it needs.

As for the second point, well, I don't have much to add on here, so I'm just going to say this: While weakness to common types can prove disasterous on some Pokemon, this is an effect on itself, not the metagame. If they typing it is weak to is irrelivant to fufilling its job of increasing the prowess of sun, then it really doesn't matter.

[DougJustDoug**]

I have intentionally not been commenting in the discussion threads, mainly because I did so much posting in our recent Policy Reviews, I just wanted to take a break and let the new leadership structure sink in a bit. But I want to give everyone a "policy reminder" about some key changes we made and how those changes should be observed by posters AND the Topic Leadership Team in this thread and others.

From a general policy perspective, there are a few things going on in this discussion thread (and all subsequent competitive discussions too).

• The Typing Leader (Deck Knight) is leading the discussion.
  Other people are helping drive discussion too. This includes the Topic Leader (jas), forum mods, other members of the TLT, and even veteran CAP participants. But the section leader (DK) is the person with the primary job of leading the discussion. He is provoking discussion, presenting his own ideas, and commenting on ideas presented by others.
  
  
• People are lobbying for and/or against different submissions.
  People are presenting ideas and commenting on ideas presented by others. Your arguments should be presented to convince others why an option would be best for this CAP or why an option would be a poor choice for this CAP. Basically, you are trying to gain votes or reduce votes for the various submissions presented. You ARE NOT voting in this thread, and saying "I like <whatever>." is NOT considered an intelligent argument.
  
  
• The Typing Leader is trying to determine which options MIGHT be supported by intelligent voters in the poll.
  Read that again, because I worded it carefully. I intentionally did not say any of the following:
  • NOT: "The Section Leader is making the slate."
  • NOT: "The Section Leader is choosing the options he/she likes the most".
  • NOT: "The Section Leader is picking the best options submitted in the thread."
  The Section Leader should review the entire thread and determine which options presented are reasonable to include in poll BASED ON INTELLIGENT COMMUNITY INPUT.

The third item is the one I want to focus on, because this is different than past CAPs and I want to make sure we don't slip into old habits here.

We do not particularly care what the Section Leader individually thinks, and this is a significant departure from the past several CAP projects. The only criteria for an option to be slated is for the option to have a reasonable amount of support from intelligent members of the community. The definition of "intelligent" is intentionally subjective, and will be determined at the discretion of the Section Leader. So yes, in that sense, we do care what the Section Leader thinks. But the Section Leader is not making as significant a qualitative assessment that Topic Leaders were asked to make in the past. All viable options that have intelligent support should be slated in the poll.

This does NOT mean every typing mentioned in this thread should make the poll. It doesn't mean that every supposedly "popular" option in this thread should make the poll. It means that every option that has been intelligently submitted and supported by other intelligent arguments, should make the slate. There should be MUCH LESS controversy over what is included in the slate than past CAP projects. The only reason a submitted option should NOT be included in the poll is if:

It did not receive much support
-OR-
The support it received was not based on good intelligent competitive reasoning

The latter statement is intentionally subjective. However the slating bias should be INCLUSIVE, not exclusive. That means if there is a borderline call, the option should be slated and leave it to the community to decide in the voting process.

I am posting this out in the open so that everyone is aware of the new expectations for "Leading Topics". The purpose is to encourage Leaders to focus on leading discussion throughout the thread, not swooping in at the end and "choosing a slate". The Section Leader is not really choosing a slate at all any more. They simply identify the slate chosen by the intelligent members of the community through the course of the discussion. Everyone should be participating in this discussion (and subsequent competitive discussions) with these new expectations in mind.

[DarkSlay]

It's a tad bit late in the thread, but going over the currently discussed typings and seeing as though most of the discussion presented over the past few pages has been about tackling playstyles like Rain and Sand (which is a terrible idea in itself), there needs to be another typing discussed. That typing would be Grass/Rock.

Here's the deal. I'm very much against typings that focus on countering Rain/Sand/Sun (not bolstering, countering). Trying to counter an entire playstyle through typing is a terrible idea, as playstyles are not associated with just one specific Pokemon or one type. Rain =/= Water. For example, while Grass/Fighting might seem like a good choice to use against Politoed and the Water types in the metagame, you are sorely weak to Flying types in Rain. That's Dragonite and Tornadus, common threats on Rain teams. In essence, you're just making a Pokemon that plays right into the playstyle's teambuilding process. This will not affect usage. A good example of how this works is actually the current Fighting/Grass in the meta, Virizion. It has good stats, decent movepool. The issue is that Rain can deal with it, even though it's a Grass type. So it's certainly not a good Rain counter, and its usage is low. This is not to say that Grass typing is a bad typing, nor is it saying that typing is the only facet in which "counter" is relevant, but rather that the broader the target is, the more likely your opponent will be able to counter CAP5 in some way, shape, or form.

So, with that out of the way, I'm on board with the idea that CAP5 working on a Sun team will bring us the best results. However, I also believe that we should be targeting Dragons. That is a concrete section of the metagame that is full of similar targets with similar weaknesses and all see some significant action in the OU metagame. As previously discussed before, both on here and in the IRC chat, Dragons are arguably Sun's number one cause for concern, as with the current format of Sun teams, there's pretty much nothing to prevent offensive Dragons (and even defensive sets) from plowing through Sun teams. Sun lacks both a defensive way of dealing with Dragons and an offensive way of dealing with Dragons. Thus, giving the Sun playstyle at least one way of dealing with Dragons should greatly change the role in which Sun teams are played.

Now you might be asking: "DarkSlay, why is Grass/Rock a good choice for CAP5? How does it work against Dragons?". Good question. Here are some bullet points on why Grass/Rock is such a great option for a Sun-based team:

• Great STABs that hit all Dragons in the metagame for Super Effective damage or neutral damage. Rock STAB is great on its own, but when you apply Rock STAB to Dragons, you'll notice that it does particularly well against every single Dragon in the metagame bar Garchomp. In which case, Grass hits Garchomp neutrally. Therefore, Grass/Rock can apply offensive pressure to Dragons, meaning that most cannot switch in without being hit by something neutrally. That's a great offensive start to dealing with the Dragons.
• Key typing match-ups. Grass/Rock is weak to Steel, Ice, Fighting, and Bug. Steel, Ice, and Bug weaknesses are all resisted by Fire types (in fact, for example, Heatran 4x resists all three). None of these three typings can be found on any Dragon, with the exception of U-Turn Hydreigon (maybe?). Fighting is a common coverage move, but Dragons rarely run a Fighting-type coverage move and rather select a Ground-type or Fire-type coverage move to deal with Steels (since for most, that coverage move is Superpower). Meanwhile, Grass/Rock resists Electric and Normal moves. While Normal is pretty much nonexistent, an Electric move is pretty handy against Volt Turn users.
• Key neutrality. I cannot stress this one enough, guys. Grass/Rock is unique in that it can both survive in almost all weathers and be hit by all weathers. For Sun teams, that's huge. You have Grass and Rock STAB to hit Rain threats, Rock STAB to hit Sun threats, and Sandstorm immunity/boost plus Grass STAB to hit Sand threats. However, you are susceptible to boosted Water, Fire, Grass, Ground, and Rock moves, all common attacking types in each weather, respectively. Hail is non-consequential, as Sun teams can generally dominate Hail teams. So in essence, this Pokemon is in a neutral state against most of the metagame while maintaining an advantage against Dragon types. Dragon types (or at least individual Dragons) are the main goal here, and creating situations in which opposing playstyles and other types can have some effect on CAP5 is essential in maintaining the integrity of the concept. As we talked about, we want a typing where CAP5 is neither broken nor useless in Sun, while being able to use Sun teams effectively AND participate well with Sun teams. This allows for that.

So, in essence, Grass/Rock really maintains the fundamentals of the concept very well, in that we are not addressing a broad spectrum of threats that umbrella across whole playstyles, but rather attacking individual threats through the Dragon typing and seeing the effects it will have on the metagame. This is what the concept embodies. By becoming more specific and becoming more open to the fact that a CAP project can have major strengths complimented by balances and weaknesses, this project will be much more successful. Please consider Grass/Rock as a potential typing: the potential the typing has for the concept is great, and the effects it will have against Dragon types and for the rest of the metagame is something that will greatly intrigue the CAP community.

EDIT: With the main reason for the post out of the way, I'll share my opinions on the currently discussed typings in the thread. Just click the Hide tab:

...

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Grass/Electric: This, in all honesty, screams "please run me on a Rain team". While there is nothing inherently wrong with that, I think the fact that it does so well against multiple facets of the metagame (that would be Sand and opposing Rain) means that it's trying to eliminate way too much from the metagame at one time through the process, and the sheer fact that it can counter what it will most likely be used on (Rain teams) means that, rather ironically, not much of the metagame will change over time. The weather pattern will more than likely remain the same.
Dark/Electric: I share some concerns with this typing as I do Grass/Electric, in that this is a very strong Rain typing, but at least it's a much more neutral match-up overall, so I support this more. What I am more concerned about, though, is that Ground weakness. Ground is a common coverage move, especially if we're talking Dragons. Perhaps my biggest question stems from "what are our targets?" with this typing. What's the rationale behind wanting to hit Ghost-types and Psychic-types? I'm not sold on that facet quite yet, although this is leagues better than focusing on playstyles.
Grass/Fighting: See: my initial post. This typing, since it's being used in terms of Rain, fails in its job to accomplish anything as a Rain counter. 4x weakness on a supporting typing on Rain teams? Not a good thing. This typing relies too heavily on countering playstyles in which it currently fails to accomplish anything in. And as previously said, typings that focus on playstyles should not be the direction we go in.
Grass/Dragon: Most of what applies to Grass/Fighting can also apply to Grass/Dragon. 4x weakness to a common supporting Rain attack? Check. Heck, I'd argue that this typing is actually inferior to Grass/Fighting if we're talking about countering Rain teams here. At that point, CAP5 would have some major issues dealing with Steel types in the metagame. Isn't that already an issue for Dragons and non-Rain teams in general? Why add to what we already know?
Grass/Dark: I'm okay with this. It's actually very similar to Grass/Rock, although it does still hold some natural advantages and disadvantages over broader playstyles. If this focuses on Dragon, though, it could definitely work. 4x Bug weakness and an unreliable way to hit Hydreigon places this right behind Grass/Rock for me, though.

[Yllnath]

Jas, while I get what you are saying about later stages, you need to realize that some things can only realistically be managed at the typing stage. I think a somewhat general consensus through this discussion is that CAP5 should act as a pivot. Soak a hit, get back to Ninetales to start the sun offensive again.

Now, when considering neutral defensive types toward rains (as in, rain hits you neither super or not very effectively), it'd still take Blissey like stats to come switching happily a few times to negate the Hydro Pump aimed at a team member, and to pivot back to Ninetales. A water resist makes this pivot function a lot smoother. Venusaur is strapped for roles it must perform for a reason. Next to being the primary sweeper, it's also the only one that can tank the water attacks.

Making a typing that at least 2x resist water gives us much greater creative freedom in all stages coming up next. Making this neutral or even weak to water will basically turn our ability stage into a water-absorbing discussion.

Out of all water resisting typings, Grass offers the greatest synergy with Sun teams naturally. Grass/X (In my case I prefer Grass/Fighting, but others mentioned are decent too) therefor has a lot more validity as being able to actually act as a defensive pivot. Something that sun teams currently completely lack, and would have great use of.

[Deglas]

DarkSlay, I disagree with Grass/Rock being a good typing for this CAP. The problem is that we are trying to improve Sun, and the Rock typing means that it gets a SpD boost from Sand. This would be less important if we made a very offensive Pokemon, but creating a defensive or even balanced Pokemon with this type would just give Sand a boost. Grass/Rock typing is also poor defensively. Cradily makes it work, but it has nice 86/97/107 defenses and a valuable Water immunity via Storm Drain. And I'm sort of an expert on "Grass/Rock type on Sun". I've used Cradily on Sun teams many times before, and it was not really for the typing. It was for being good against Rain (via Storm Drain and STAB Giga Drain) and exploiting Sand (which it does much better on Sand), as well as giving me a Stealth Rock user.
This typing also restricts our options. A defensive Grass/Rock type has already been made, and it definitely works better on Sand than on Sun. If we were to make a defensive, or even balanced Pokemon with this typing, it would be almost certain to end up being Cradily 2.0. So we are already encouraged to build an offensive Pokemon, to avoid it doing better on Sand. This runs into problems when we notice that Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, and Ice Shard-- the three most common priority moves-- hit this Pokemon for SE damage. This creates a paradox: we can't make it bulky, because it would then buff Sand, but we have to make it bulky, or it gets slaughtered by priority, becoming mostly useless as an offensive Pokemon.

[NotYourDay123]

Ummm, I'm no Sun expert but surely if we want to bolster Sun whilst diminishing the power of Rain Teams then surely this CAP should have Drought as its ability? I mean typing aside for a moment if there's an alternative to Ninetales available/another Drought user to counteract Rain then that's our main purpose of this CAP already solved. I realise that would be a heavy shift in the weather war but it's only a proposition which you are free to refute. Or moreover, just make its ability Air Lock/Cloud Nine.
With this view in mind, I'd agree with the Dark/Poison hypothesis as this effectively counters Latios and has neutrality to fighting and would bolster Sun just by its ability alone.
If we don't give the new CAP a Sun specific or anti-Weather ability then I'd support Electric/Fighting. That means in Sun it has Water resistance, Electric STAB for obvious reasons, Fighting to deal with enemy Heatrans which will most likely become prevalent in use once Sun is seemingly bolstered and resistance to Grass (Breloom), Electric (Rotom-W and Thunderus-T) and Dark (Dark resistance being handy with Toxicroak priority in terms of Rain counter, Sun bolster application).

[reachzero]

First of all, let me weigh in on Grass/Dragon. Grass/Dragon is a terrible idea for this CAP. The greatest problems for Sun are unequivocally Latias and Heatran. Grass/Dragon does not help with either problem. It is true that Sun teams do need a Water resist and a Ground resist. However, there are already Pokemon that fill this need as well as CAP5 ever could: Latias and Dragonite. There is no comparable Pokemon that can reliably take on Latias and Heatran for a Sun team. In fact, Grass/Dragon would actually invite other teams to use Heatran and Latias, which would only make problems worse for Sun teams. A Grass/Dragon Pokemon would do more to hurt Sun than help it.

Dark/Electric is not a terrible combination, but it is noticeably worse than Dark by itself. Compared to Dark by itself, Dark/Electric becomes weak to Ground, while gaining only one useful resistance, Electric, alongside relatively useless resistances in Steel and Flying. Steel is only useful in turns of Scizor and Ferrothorn; neither of which are particular problems for a Sun team (which by definition has Ninetales) and which both have nasty options that aren't Bullet Punch or Gyro Ball to hit CAP5 with anyway. Flying is only for Hurricane, and let's face it, with Tornadus-t gone, Hurricane is virtually a non issue. The only Hurricane users of any substance are Dragonite and Tornadus, and Tornadus is not much of a factor anyway. To give you an idea, the last month before the arrival of Tornadus-t with BW2 was June 2012. Tornadus was #36, just more common than Conkeldurr and four slots below Donphan. Hurricane is no longer a major factor in the mainstream OU metagame. In return, the Ground weakness is a considerable liability against numerous Pokemon, notably Landorus, one of the worst Pokemon to give a free turn, for any team but particularly a Sun team. Dark and Electric also synergize very poorly as STABs, since the value of being Dark type offensively comes on the physical side (Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Crunch) while Electric has very poor physical moves (Wild Charge, basically; Fusion Bolt, Bolt Strike and Volt Tackle are all signature moves, and for the most part inaccessible to us).

Grass/Electric shares some of the worst characteristics of Grass/Dragon and Dark/Electric; it cannot beat Latias, it has only one useful resistance, it's STABs are largely redundant and don't synergize well. The largest benefit of Grass types is being resistant to both Water and Ground; being neutral to Ground does much to hurt a Grass type's usefulness (and Venusaur can attest. It's pretty hard to actually get in safely!). It is pretty telling that there is only one Grass/Electric, but it has good stats and a decent movepool, and is RU.

By comparison, Dark/Grass resists both Ground and Water, consistently beats Latias (assuming the right stats, as all of these typings do), can switch in on Politoed and Hippowdon freely (probably not Tyranitar except very carefully). Grass typing means that Terrakion and Keldeo need to think twice before switching in, which really helps a Dark Pokemon. While it is true that Venusaur is also a Grass type, this actually works in both Pokemons' favor somewhat in that it relieves Venusaur's four moveslot syndrome--if Lati@s is dealt with, Venusaur can afford to use a Grass move, Nature Power/Earthquake and HP Fire rather than Sludge Bomb, which helps Venusaur considerably.

Dark/Grass is a very adequate typing for a defensive pivot for a Sun team, while boasting exactly the right sort of firepower to take down Latias, one of the largest threats to a Sun team. It is hands-down the best type for CAP5.

[Skore]

I'm in love with the idea of a Grass/Fighting mon with dual stab on Drain Punch and Horn Leech whose "weapon of choice" is the Big Root of Doom, bulky enough to take a hit then smack back with vampiric savagery on those that want to Rain on Ninetales' parade.

Other than that, Grass/Dark is not doing it for me as so many mons can carry U-Turn that it could find itself taking major damage from the likes of Jirachi, Lando, Celebi etc. before it gets to do it's job.

If this mons niche is "take a hit to get Ninetales a free pass in" then damn sure people are going to start predicting that pretty easily after a match or 2 and then boom! - CAP is only good against those that haven't seen it before.

While the niche of allowing Sun to keep momentum and maintain the weather is a noble and just cause, it can't be the only niche CAP gets molded for, otherwise it becomes a one trick pony that quickly becomes a dead horse.

The typing needs to be flexible enough to allow that.

[capefeather]

A lot of people are concerned that a Grass-type CAP 5 might just compete with Venusaur. This is a pretty simplified view of how doubled typings work, in the end. Rain and Dragon spam teams are almost *about* getting away with doubling up on a typing. Offensive teams in general often double up on typings. Usually, the point of doing this is to overload a common counter or to provide extra defense against a particular dangerous threat. Not to mention, Venusaur has a very role-defining ability in Chlorophyll, making it relatively easy for another Grass-type to distinguish itself.

I'm also wary of the idea that an Electric typing would just end up being good in/for rain. The only real benefit that Electric gets from rain is accurate Thunder, and while that is significant, being only 26% more powerful than Thunderbolt and requiring rain for its accuracy don't strike me as being awesome enough to marry the typing entirely with rain. Volt Switch I can only really see helping Tornadus and maybe Ferrothorn.

[Birkal*]

Just wanted to post a quick thought that I have fallen in love with Dark/Grass as our typing for CAP 5 for similar reasons as reachzero posted a little while ago. I like to call it the "completely legit lovechild" of Electric/Grass and Electric/Dark, both of which have been popular typings throughout this thread. Dark/Grass has a surprising list of resists that are all going to be useful for aiding a pivot on any sun team. The part that originally made me feel uncomfortable was the glaring x4 weakness to Bug-type attacks (notably U-turn). I think that's something that will just have to come with the territory; our Pokemon needs to be weak to something. And sun teams don't mind being a little Bug-weak anyways. Ninetales and even other Fire-types (I get excited just thinking about putting other Fire-types on sun teams!) don't mind soaking up U-turn, so I feel like we'll have some good synergy going here anyways.

I don't see why an Electric-type is necessarily a good thing for CAP 5. Access to Volt Switch (maybe) is kind of intriguing, but it doesn't provide much else outside of that. The Ground weakness is not welcome to sun teams (Ninetales and Heatran), and the addition of Thunder would encourage usage on rain teams. Dark/Grass is really the best of both worlds. Dark-type gives you the power to fight the Latis, while you can pseudo-trap with STAB Pursuit on Politoed (not enough to kill, but does a good chunk). It also allows a good way to fight off spinblockers, which is useful if CAP 5 is going to go for some hazard control. Grass-type offers some good resistances and a solid avenue to fight off the three big weather starters. I'm also curious about what this duality will teach us. There's been plenty of debate whether Sun is threatened more by Dragons or Waters. With Dark/Grass, the choice is yours; you can fight off Dragons with Dark-type moves and other trinkets, or soak up rain boosted attacks and threaten with Grass STAB. While I think we've come up with some pretty decent typings in this thread, I'm convinced that Grass/Dark is the optimal way to go about this.

[Ignus]

Some people are worried that some Mons - namely grass-"x" types could be easily converted to the rainy side of the force. While this is reasonable, I think that it is important to look at what would make a typing stronger on a rain team rather then a sun/other team.

Role Overlaps
Imagine if this Poké did the same thing as say, Rotom-W. What would the typing change do to it's usage? What threats and weaknesses would make CAP 5 more useful in one situation over Rotom-W and why would these differences matter? A better parallel would be Mamoswine and Donphan. Both have acess to STAB earthquake, Ice-shard, Stealth Rock, and decent defenses. However, Donphan has rapid spin and horrid base speed. Mamoswine has STAB ice-shard, better special resistances and can deal with a larger variety of situations.
Both are useful but excel on different teams.

Counters
Who can switch in on CAP 5? Do those pokémon have a large variety of uses outside of dealing with the mon is question? If so, is it because they already helped cover the weaknesses of those we are trying to get rid of? Just as important as countering the water/steel/dragon type is countering the water/steel/dragon type's best friend. This is where the underused, more abused type comes in. Already existing poké's should be boosted up with the existence of CAP 5. Not every single one, mind you, but the ones that could already be in OU if something to supplement and de-emphasize it's existing weaknesses.
That is: the point of this CAP is about countering the counter-counter as much as it is about countering the original type (Steel/Water/Dragon).

My brain is tiny and makes errors. Please counter-argue and help me understand if I'm being a retard. I'll probably still call you an idiot but at least it's good conversation.

[Deck Knight]

Right so I was not feeling well yesterday and kinda collapsed, and just woke up.

I haven't seen any last minute additions that I find compelling enough, having discussed several of them privately and on #cap. I'll close the thread for now and jas can exercise his authority if he desires.

Remember the goal of these typings is to provide additional slots to sun teams by either giving them a defensive pivot that can perform the spinner or trapper role simultaneously, or providing a Pokemon that can allow an existing Pokemon to fill that role. There are already viable Water + Ice resists with Fire moves like Slowbro. There's already a Dragon / Ground resist in Skarmory and Bronzong.There are already Water and Ground resists like Dragonite and Lati@s - the problem is most of them are better tailored to Rain than Sun, and as such see more usage there. If we can get a Pokemon that can make them more cohesive with Sun, that will do wonders for us.

So without further adieu:

Electric / Dark
Electric / Grass
Grass / Dark
Grass / Dragon
Grass / Fighting

[jas61292]

So, I don't have too much to say here, right now. Deck did a good job making a slate, and I am just going to leave it as is. I'm still not convinced about Grass/Dragon, but of all my concerns with it, my biggest one is simply the fact that I don't really think it had much support. However, if Deck believes that it had enough to make the slate, then I am just going to go with his judgement. Even though I consider it inferior to other typings for the sake of this concept, I do think that, in the end, if we ended up with it, we could make something out of it.

Thats it from me. Lets get on to a vote.