Black & White Battle Subway Records (now with gen. 4 records!)

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat RED Pyro

I really like the concept of a vulpix bait, and will definitely give metagross a try, as long as Timer0 stops trolling me.

Hope you'll have fun & succsess with the team : ) Btw does anyone play the BattleFrontier in 4th gen?

[NoCheese]

Originally Posted by Fat Jokethe1

Btw does anyone play the BattleFrontier in 4th gen?

Just scroll down in the very first post in this thread. Lots of very impressive records there, some done very recently, like Jumpman's great Battle Hall streak with double Heatran.

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat NoCheese

Just scroll down in the very first post in this thread. Lots of very impressive records there, some done very recently, like Jumpman's great Battle Hall streak with double Heatran.

Yeah that's true but the record is a while ago (I guess). I think I've written the wrong question because I mean if somebody is playing the 4th gen BattleFrontier because all people are getting frustrated from the BattleSubway and maybe a few of them going to go back to 4th gen and are trying to break their record or etc. Thanks anyway : )

[D34N]

Originally Posted by Fat Jokethe1

Hope you'll have fun & succsess with the team : ) Btw does anyone play the BattleFrontier in 4th gen?

I do! (Mostly because I don't own any fifth-generation games).

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat D34N

I do!

Nice to hear! What team do you use? How long was your longest winstreak?

[D34N]

Longest streak so far has been 155 using Starmie, Scizor and Garchomp (Pokémon-wise, exactly the same as lordmookie's on the previous page interestingly). Lost to a pretty average team of Raichu, Jolteon and Ninetales in typical Battle Tower fashion - a critical hit coming at the worst possible time and a regrettable miss with Hydro Pump (I think I'll run Surf from now on...) but it was fun.

[Jumpman16**]

Originally Posted by Fat Jokethe1

Btw how far are you with your DoubleSubway team Jumpman?

I lost at like 246 or something and actually tried a variation on my team:

whimsicott@sash: tailwind/encore/fake tears/endeavor, Bold, 252Def/252SpD/4Spe
heatran@fire gem: eruption/earth power/hp electric/protect, Quiet, 4HP/252SpA/252Spe
latios@dragon gem: dragon pulse/luster purge/thunderbolt/tailwind, Timid, 4HP/252SPA/252Spe
togekiss@normal gem: hyper voice/air slash/aura sphere/protect, Modest, 4HP/252SPA/252Spe

where I replaced Whimsicott with a BP/Acro/Bug Bite/Tailwind Scizor@Flying Gem and moved Latios to the front, and it really works/worked marvelously for some time. Here is team Eruption Tailwind 2 in action at battle 221:

https://www.pokecheck.org/?p=search&...71-64051-10732

I lost at like 252 to a double rock polish Regirock/Registeel because I thought I had gotten Tailwind up etc etc. Latios/Heatran/Scizor/Togekiss was refreshing because it's really just a synergistic goodstuffs team with 12 attacks and two Tailwind/Protect pairs. I'm back using my original team and am over 100 again. (Sidenote: every time I get to 105 and get that Lansat Berry, I play the first like 30 seconds of this song on my ipod or itunes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_dh16HQkqQ#t=0m10s [stupid intro skipped]). My orig team hates Tyranitar, Ice types if Heatran gets hacked, and "Amnesia", while the goodstuffs team hates not having second turn Encore or Fake Tears and Fire types if Heatran gets hacked. Still fun I guess!

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

I lost at like 246 or something and actually tried a variation on my team:

where I replaced Whimsicott with a BP/Acro/Bug Bite/Tailwind Scizor@Flying Gem and moved Latios to the front, and it really works/worked marvelously for some time. My orig team hates Tyranitar, Ice types if Heatran gets hacked, and "Amnesia", while the goodstuffs team hates not having second turn Encore or Fake Tears and Fire types if Heatran gets hacked. Still fun I guess!

Nice records dude! Hope you'll crack 300 :)
But why you didn't switch Latios out? Ok.. maybe you wouldn't hit yourself but you and all other BS players now that the luck won't be on your side like all the other ones how got haxed....but still you won :D

Btw that could help you against Tyranitar and IceTypes

Infernape
Nature & Item: Naive/Hasty - FocusSash
Ev's: 252 Speed & 200 Attack & 58 Sp.Attack
Moves: CloseCombat, FakeOut/Encore/SunnyDay, Flamethrower, MachPunch

Terrakion is a other option too and will hit really hard and with TailWind it would work pretty well and with STABHelpingHand boosted RockSlide I have nothing to say more

[Jumpman16**]

yeah, hitting myself three times in confusion was a 3.125% chance and if I ever snapped out of it i was basically assured a win because Flattering Latios is one of the worst ideas

I've thought about Infernape a little bit but basically my second team has no issue whatsoever with Tyra and Ice Types. Having two Tailwinders is pretty much mandatory as well or else I'd use Balloon Ninetales who would be awesome with Flame Burst, Solarbeam, HP Ground and like Disable

Originally Posted by Fat lordmookie

Hey everyone, I've been reading battle tower/subway stuff for a while and am excited to finally post on one of these groups. My team is pretty unoriginal, and thus maybe a little boring, but it was fun for me to finally get a substantial streak (just got into rng'ing...it changed everything).

Streak was in singles: 178

Starmie @ Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Psychic

Garchomp (M) @ Lum Berry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant
ROUGH SKIN**
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- SD
- Sub

Scizor (F) @ Leftovers
EVs: Jump's bulky spread
Adamant
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite

I loved reading this because I tried (what I thought was) this exact team when I was deciding on my Bullet Train team. I used it quite a bit and it actually won me over—I may still be using it if not for the slight modification I made to it with Haxorus over Garchomp and Haxorus leading (my current Bullet Train team). I changed it up because I lost once to a ledge team with lead Regigigas that got a lot of confuse/dt hax against Scizor and is kind of hard to beat with Drain Punch/Payback after it gets its act together, especially with Starmie and Garchomp, but I even made a note to myself later that "i abandoned starmie/scizor/garchomp because of...regigigas? that can't be it lol" but I think it was plus wanting to try lead DD Haxorus.

As already suggested, you should definitely be Timid with Starmie and Jolly with Garchomp, but even in this battle I think I would have gotten one SD with Scizor before firing away at Whiscash. I generally try to set up with Scizor if I'm down a poke because I don't have the backup I normally would. If you were really facing Cruel4 (the only one with Surf) it doesn't have any SpA investment and its Surfs do 22-26% to your ("my") Scizor. It literally cannot beat Scizor if you Roost every other turn and Bug Bite, cause you do 42-50% with +2 Bug Bite and it will try to Protect at some point, giving you the same 6.25% HP recovery it seeks by Protecting with Black Sludge. Like, I would actually relish setting up Scizor on Cruel4 at any point in any battle because it's such a non-threat with one of the weakest Surfs in the game, two poison moves and an erratic Protect that helps you about as much as it helps it.

I don't know if you were facing Cruel4 and not Cruel3 (with a Modest Hydro Pump) instead because I don't know what trainer uses Whiscash3 (the only Whiscash with Earth Power), Tentacruel4 and Togekiss (Fisherman Fird can indeed use the first two). Even if you understandably mistook Whiscash for Gastrodon, Gastro3 is the only Gastro with EP too. Minor point but yeah it's kind of hard to lose Scizor to Tentacruel4 even with all its defense.

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

yeah, hitting myself three times in confusion was a 3.125% chance and if I ever snapped out of it i was basically assured a win because Flattering Latios is one of the worst ideas

Yeah that's true! Btw.... if I see right your only "Double Battle" record in 4th gen is your Double Hall streak with Slamence right? Now.. why you didn't try to Battle in the DoubleBattle tower? Just asking .. I know you have the BattleTower single worldrecord .. I guess you was bored of Platinum but not sure...Maybe your new Subway team would have maybe a very good chance to get a new record in 4th gen BattleTower...Ok the Gem's are "removed" but there are still a lot of good items for your pokes...

[Jumpman16**]

You're forgetting the Eruptran streaks that NoCheete mentioned a few posts up, if anything I'd continue my streak there before playing doubles tower in gen 4. I'm already playing Doubles Subway in Gen V and feel my team has a shot at some kind of respectable record so I'm doing that.

In general going back generations to beat or improve upon streaks is kind of frivolous...all respect to Bozo but I seriously don't care if you beat any streaks I have (any by the same token TRE shouldn't care about my Eruptran streak, if the strategy and team building process could still be entertaining to read).

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

You're forgetting the Eruptran streaks that NoCheete mentioned a few posts up, if anything I'd continue my streak there before playing doubles tower in gen 4. I'm already playing Doubles Subway in Gen V and feel my team has a shot at some kind of respectable record so I'm doing that.

In general going back generations to beat or improve upon streaks is kind of frivolous...all respect to Bozo but I seriously don't care if you beat any streaks I have (any by the same token TRE shouldn't care about my Eruptran streak, if the strategy and team building process could still be entertaining to read).

Not sure what I should say but I can't explain myself why the hell I forgot your Eruptran streak.

[Jumpman16**]

Don't worry, everyone did :)

I'm only slightly kidding, but all jokes aside I don't think they were received nearly as "well" as they would have been had they pertained to efforts in a current generation, and that does kind of matter when one is deciding whether or not to continue or start a streak in prior gens' games, imo

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

Don't worry, everyone did :)

I'm only slightly kidding, but all jokes aside I don't think they were received nearly as "well" as they would have been had they pertained to efforts in a current generation, and that does kind of matter when one is deciding whether or not to continue or start a streak in prior gens' games, imo

Yeah true :D But still a kind of blame in my opinion .. whatever xD

Btw a little update about my Latias, Empoleon, Tyranitar team







Nothing special happend during this streak.....only battle 92 :

Openet sent Skuntank in
Simon sent Latias in

Latias used Trick - Skuntank used Explosion
Latias fainted - Skuntank fainted

Openet sent in Shiftry
Simon sent in Empoleon

Shiftry used SeedBomb
Empoleon lost 60 HP - Empoleon used Yawn

Shiftry used SeedBomb
Empoleon lost 61 HP - Empoleon used Substitute (23 HP left)

Shiftry felt asleep!
Empoleon used Rest - Felt asleep --> LumBerry

Shiftry slept
Empoleon used FeatherDance

Shiftry woke up and used SeedBomb ( broke the Substitute CH )
Empoleon used FeatherDance

....

After stalled all SeedBombs out I switched to Tyranitar

Shiftry used AerialAce, it's not very effective
Tyraintar lost 4 HP - Tyranitar used DragonDance

After 6 DragonDances (and a Substitute up) I used Protect for Leftover recovery ......

Tyranitar used Protect!
Shiftry used Explosion - Tyranitar protected itself!

Openet sent out Hypno
Tyranitar used Crunch . It's super-effective! Hypno fainted, GG


Scary battle but still won.

I've created a DoubleBattle team for pokemon Platinum, I'll post my team after I've reached 105 wins. 49 are already done but that was with a TrickRoom team before. I have to RNG only one teammate to start ... after that we will see.

[Little Green Yoda]

Okay, I'm on the cusp on breaking 100 wins in the doubles Subway and I have a question. Do the Harlequin trainers always use the slowest version of a Pokemon? I know they specialize in TR but I'm wondering if the Pokemon they use are always the ones with negative speed natures.

EDIT: Okay, apparently not. Good thing this was the Calm Slowking and not the Modest Specs one. I was totally expecting the Quiet one. >_>
EDIT2: Oh wow. I guess TRE posted a list of Pokemon that could be used by each trainer type and I totally missed that post. Only Slowking 1 is under the TR section. <_<

[Eppie]

Originally Posted by Fat Jumpman16

where I replaced Whimsicott with a BP/Acro/Bug Bite/Tailwind Scizor@Flying Gem and moved Latios to the front, and it really works/worked marvelously for some time.

Have you ever tried/considered Tornadus?

I'm playing with the wind too as of yesterday:

Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem
Adamant / Prankster
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Speed
Stats: 186/183/90/121/100/132

~ U-Turn
~ Tailwind
~ Acrobatics
~ Superpower

Heatran (M) @ Fire Gem
Quiet / Flash Fire
EV's: 6 HP / 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Speed
Stats: 166/110/126/200/126/116

~ Protect
~ Eruption
~ Earth Power
~ Dragon Pulse

Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Modest / Levitate
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Sp.Atk / 6 Speed
Stats: 187/87/100/200/130/131

~ Psyshock
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunderbolt
~ Dragon Pulse

Heracross @ Focus Sash
Adamant / Moxie
EV's: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
Stats: 163/194/95/54/115/130

~ Protect
~ Megahorn
~ Night Slash
~ Close Combat

I lost at 65 first try with this team against Trick Room but that
battle would have been won had I made the right choices.
So far Tornadus got up Tailwind everytime I needed it (Kangashkan and Weavile can be problematic though).
Modest LO Latios is a powerhouse but currently i'm using your Togekiss because Hyper Voice.
Moxie Heracross does it's job very well too, grabbing Moxie boosts as if they were falling from the sky.

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat Eppie

Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem
Adamant / Prankster
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 6 Speed
Stats: 186/183/90/121/100/132

~ U-Turn
~ Tailwind
~ Acrobatics
~ Superpower

Heatran (M) @ Fire Gem
Quiet / Flash Fire
EV's: 6 HP / 252 Sp.Atk / 252 Speed
Stats: 166/110/126/200/126/116

~ Protect
~ Eruption
~ Earth Power
~ Dragon Pulse

Just have a little question. Are the I'vs of the RangerHeatran changeable? But I guess they aren't because I guess you would have used HP Ice for DragonPulse or?
Btw nice idea with SuperPower on Tornadus!

[Eppie]

My Heatran is hex-flawless so I cannot run a Hidden Power.
But if I could, Ice or Grass would be my choice as Gyarados
is KO'd by -1 Acrobatics + Eruption.

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat Eppie

My Heatran is hex-flawless so I cannot run a Hidden Power.
But if I could, Ice or Grass would be my choice as Gyarados
is KO'd by -1 Acrobatics + Eruption.

Yeah true! Btw you've created a new team. Didn't your Grafity team work well?

[Eppie]

I ended up with Terrakion/Sableye/Rotom-W/Dragonite but Gravity never worked out as well as I thought/hoped it would unfortunately. I think my highest streak was 175 or so with that team. I like to try different strategies and use different Pokémon from time to time though. For now Tailwind seems to work for me and I'm enjoying it :).

Oh and Jump, for what it's worth, you're wasting a statpoint on your Scizor.
124 Speed EV's give 101 Speed too..

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat Eppie

I ended up with Terrakion/Sableye/Rotom-W/Dragonite but Gravity never worked out as well as I thought/hoped it would unfortunately. I think my highest streak was 175 or so with that team. I like to try different strategies and use different Pokémon from time to time though. For now Tailwind seems to work for me and I'm enjoying it :).

Oh and Jump, for what it's worth, you're wasting a statpoint on your Scizor.
124 Speed EV's give 101 Speed too..

Yeah but it's everytime the same...you create a team and have a really good opinion about the team. But what WILL happen? Your team gets destroyed by hax....that's why a few players getting frustrated ... and I agree. Maybe after a lot of tries you'll have a success (best example Peterko in Doubles! I can't believe how many teams he has created and has made streaks one by one). Everytime if I've lost I was thinking "Why I can't look in the future?????"

[NoCheese]

Haven't posted on my subwaying in a bit so figure I'll post a few thoughts now. First, I finally decided to put together a few runs on my Black 2 cartridge, and started off with my old 336 win standby of Garchomp/Suicune/Ferrothorn, with the only update being my switch to Rough Skin on Chomp. The team played great, as expected, and Rough Skin continued to prove its worth. Unfortunately, after reaching 221 wins pretty smoothly, I punted a match to a missclick, got irritated, and stepped away from the Subway for a bit. I can post the proof photo if people want, but since it's a lesser streak than I already have with that team, I don't really see the need to have it on the leaderboard.

Coming back, I thought about giving that team another go, but felt too impatient to go through hundreds of matches where I'd be using both slow set up Suicune and Ferrothorn in a bunch of my matches, and so wanted to try something faster.

I first tried out Focus Sash/Destiny Bond Gengar. I had some early success when Pokemon Black first came out with a Gengar/Garchomp/Scizor team (see http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...8&postcount=86 for my write up of 139 wins with them), and thought that Gengar with Dragonite and Scizor could be fun and fast. The team certainly was both, but it had too many vulnerabilities. Gengar can pretty much guarantee one kill, but was unable to get a second on too many occasions, and Dragonite/Scizor found it a bit too easy to lose to hax and the like against the final two enemy pokes. A bulkier setup/pivot poke like Suicune might help here, but that pulls me back towards using Garchomp as my third poke, and that would leave me retracing ~Mercury's~ footsteps, and slow battles down as well.

In my original write up, I noted that Focus Blast was a bit of a free roll on Gengar, getting many OHKOs (where the other two moves wouldn't even 2HKO) on a hit, while not costing me much on a miss, since I could still fall back on Destiny Bond/Focus Sash in most cases to trade one-for-one. Giving it more thought, however, I now feel that I was mistaken. If I'm still winning battles just fine after a Focus Blast miss, why waste a slot on the move at all? And if a Focus Blast hit is the difference between losing and winning a battle, I should not be relying on 70% accuracy. That my loss on my early 139 streak included a Focus Blast miss really hammers this point home. Moreover, too many of the things that Focus Blast hits hard are either really bulky and able to tank it, or Sashed/Sturdy, requiring a second hit. If I play Gengar again, I'll replace Focus Blast with a 4x weakness hunting move, with leading options being Energy Ball, HP Rock, and HP Fire. Yes, the speed loss from HP Fire would be frustrating, but since you already have to play speed ties like you'll always lose if you want to ensure a destiny bond, I think the practical impact of the lost point of speed will be lower than one might assume.

More generally, the difficulty I've had with Gengar is that even though he is amazing at guaranteeing a one-for-one trade, he's only really helpful when he's able to kill two pokes, for which he is not quite consistent enough. Sure, the classic outrun and 2HKO the lead, survive the first attack with Sash, then outrun and Destiny Bond the second poke happens a lot, but weather damage, paralysis hax, a faster opposing poke, or Focus Blast miss mean you are stuck in one-for-one land more often than I would like. Once you are just trading one-for-one, you're in a suboptimal position. As a thought experiment, imagine a team with 2 pokes that could each guarantee to trade with one of the opponent's pokes (and even shut down their lasting moves/abilities, which Gengar does not) but do nothing else. Clearly, this would be a horrible team for building a long streak. You'd end up in a one-on-one with a random enemy poke, and no matter how well designed your final poke is, many enemy pokes will be able to beat it. You'd win most of your battles, yes, but that isn't enough when you want a to win several hundred times in a row. ~Mercury~ certainly made Gengar work for a monster streak, and his Garchomp and Suicune synergize marvelously, so I shouldn't say it's impossible, but leading with Gengar, I felt like there were too many ways for my team to lose, particularly given my desire to keep battles moving briskly.

I've since turned to *Dragon/Suicune/Scizor (with Mono-Water Chesto Suicune and Scizor holding Leftovers and using Bullet Punch/Bug Bite/Swords Dance/Roost). My first choice for lead Dragon is ol' dependable Choice Band Garchomp. Garchomp/Suicune/Scizor naturally plays similarly to Garchomp/Suicune/Ferrothorn, but there are some key differences. First is that Scizor speeds up a lot of matches. A quick Swords Dance followed by attacking is much faster than grinding out a series of Leach Seeds, Substitutes, and Curses. You also perform much better in situations where Garchomp leaves an opposing poke at low health before being KOed himself (a reasonably common occurrence when locked into Outrage). Ferrothorn is so slow that it always has to take a hit before being able to get the kill, but Scizor can just Bullet Punch for the last bit of damage. In particular, this is helpful against things like Focus Sash Blizzard/Wood Hammer/Focus Blast Abomasnow, which can cause a lot of super effective pain for Garchomp/Suicune/Ferrothorn.

Scizor's comparative weakness is that he is much less tanky. I'm using an Adamant max Attack/max HP spread, and even with Roost for recovery, Scizor is very vulnerable to things like neutral damage crits. Accordingly, when playing him, however tempting it is to go for a full set up on things he dominates, it's often best to attack after one boost, rather than trying to get all the way to +6. Without the safety of Substitute to hide behind, an untimely hit or status effect can really ruin Scizor's day. Sometimes you can safely set up all the way, but when in doubt, err on the side of attacking too early rather than too late. Another weakness of Scizor is painfully specific: he's less consistent of an answer to Timid King's Rock SPIT Starmie than I would like. Ferrothorn is bulky enough that it can handle one instance of hax and still counter Starmie, even getting a couple of Curses and a Substitute in while it bleeds the starfish out with Leech Seed. Sure, with no freeze, critical hit, or flinch, Scizor can switch into Ice Beam, eat a Surf, and OHKO with Bug Bite, but the chance of one of these happening is too high for my taste. Even coming into revenge kill, where the danger of a freeze or crit on the Ice Beam is removed, he still loses to a crit or flinch on the Surf, which will happen an unacceptably high 15.625% of the time (6.25% chance of crit + 10% chance of flinch - 0.625% chance of both ). Since SPIT Starmie beats Garchomp and pre-setup Suicune, this is a big problem.

In the end, I think that with tight play, Garchomp/Suicune/Ferrothorn is still a better team than Garchomp/Suicune/Scizor in terms of winning percentage, but if you want faster battles, switching to Scizor is defensible.

The second Dragon lead I've tried with Suicune and Scizor (and what I'm currently playing) is Adamant max Attack, max speed Lum Berry Dragonite with Outrage, Earthquake, Swords Dance, and Fire Punch. This type of team has already been shown to be strong, as Carl put together a sweet 404 win streak with identical pokemon and moves, written up here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...postcount=1729. Unlike Carl, I'm using Leftovers on Scizor and Chesto Berry on Suicune. I find the initial quick sleep more helpful for Suicune than Leftovers recovery, and Scizor is very happy to have Leftovers freed up for its use. Still, I'm sure that even with this change, this plays out very similarly to Carl's squad.

Interestingly, though you most often spend your first turn having Dragonite use Dragon Dance, this team plays faster than the version with immediate attacking Choice Band Garchomp in the lead. Choiced Garchomp typically has to switch out after confusion, meaning that a slower poke often needs to come in and set up to finish a match. Dragonite, because of his ability to switch moves and recover from confusion with its Lum Berry, is typically able to stay in longer, and so many battles are won in quick fashion by dancing once or twice and then attacking three times. Where possible, I do try to get in two Dragon Dances, as after two, Dragonite outspeeds the entire Subway, and very few things avoid a OHKO absent Sturdy or a Sash. After just one Dance, Adamant Dragonite's Outrage hits harder than that of Jolly Choice Band Garchomp, which is enough to OHKO several bulky neutrals that barely survive Garchomp's outrange. This is very nice. The unfortunate trade off is that lacking STAB, Dragonite's Earthquake is much weaker than that of Choice Band Garchomp, even after a single Dance, and so a second Dance helps a lot for getting Earthquake KOs. A particularly nice thing about Dragonite is that where you are able to Dance early, it can often dominate many of the pokes that can outspeed Garchomp. With all of the the base speed 111 Kami and base speed 108 Musketeers on the all-legendary trainers' teams, this is particularly helpful. Likewise, being able to boost speed helps mitigate the risks from SPIT Starmie, because after one Dance, Dragonite can outspeed it and OHKO with Outrage.

The biggest downside of Dragonite compared to Garchomp, in my mind, is how many opposing Dragons initially outspeed you. Garchomp is outrun by the Timid Lati twins and opposing Scarf Chomp, but can shred everything else by just Outraging. Dragonite is typically stuck either switching out or eating a super effective attack on the first turn. Thanks to Multiscale, Dragonite can often survive a lead Dragon-type attack, Dance once, and then KO with Outrage, but it remains vulnerable to particularly high powered opposing Outrages, critical hits, and Mold Breaker Haxrous. It is likely that this risk can be partially mitigated by switching to Carl's slightly bulkier 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe spread, but I have not yet theorymoned this against opposing Dragon attacks to see which in which specific matchups such a spread turns a OHKO of Dragonite into a 2HKO. Consider that to be on my to-do list. I'm sitting at a little over 100 wins with the team right now, and hope I can keep going for a big streak.

Returning briefly to the issue of SPIT Starmie, I find it is the single most important poke in the entire Subway for theorymoning. So many otherwise great teams match up really poorly with it, because thanks to the 10% flinch chance, many things that could otherwise counter it risk losing to flinch Hax. Yes, you can use a cripple and set up team to avoid this problem, but in that case, you are dooming yourself to slow matches. The natural solution would be to use something faster than the starfish that can also OHKO, but not much outspeeds Starmie without a Choice Scarf, and frustratingly, SPIT Starmie is just bulky enough to survive almost all unboosted STABed neutral attacks and unboosted non-STABed super effective attacks, so even with a scarf, most attacks won't quite get there. One very cool exception is Latios. A Modest, max Attack Scarfed Latios just barely guarantees the OHKO against subway SPIT Starmie with Thunderbolt. (Draco Meteor also works, of course, but the 10% miss chance makes it too unreliable for my taste.) Accordingly I've long wanted to try a team with Modest Scarf Latios as something of a catch-all cleanup poke.

Unfortunately, settling on the two main lead pokes to go with this Latios has proven difficult. A lead Dragon is awkward because it gives you two pokemon with a shared weakness. I love lead Cloyster, but Cloyster really, really loves having Garchomp as a partner (since Thunder Wave is so crippling), and that puts you back into double Dragon territory. Similarly, most teams, even fast ones, want something reasonably bulky that can serve as a pivot and counter opposing bulky pokes, and Cloyster/Garchomp/Latios lacks that. Cloyster/Scizor/Latios avoids the shared weakness issue, but Thunder Wave remains a significant problem. Scizor/Suicune/Latios could actually be a lot of fun, includes a nice type spread, and has Suicune to answer opposing bulk, but you lose a little of the initial pop that other leads have. Scizor's type coverage is imperfect, and after one Swords Dance, it still doesn't OHKO as many things as does a boosted Garchomp, Cloyster, or Dragonite, which I suspect makes it much more vulnerable as a lead than I would like.

Right now, I'm leaning towards making my next attempt a variant on Jumpman's "Bullet Train" team of Latios/Suicune/Terrakion, written up here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=390. I'd have a nice mix of attacks, good defensive synergy, no awkward double-dragon weakness, and the ability to win many of my battles very quickly. With Scarf Latios as my catch-all cleaner, Terrakion would need to lead, and though I haven't ever tried lead Terrakion, I imagine that it will work well, and since Suicune and Latios both cover its weaknesses well, switching out should not be too much of a hardship. Unlike Jumpman, I'd stick with Scald/Calm Mind/Substitue/Rest and Chesto/Lum Berry on Suicune. I'd lose the cool "team support" aspect of Icy Wind, and some matches would go slower for me than for Jumpman, but on such a team, I'm willing to trade off a little battle speed for the hyper-reliability of mono-Water Suicune.

Do any of you have other ideas on ways to get maximum value out of Scarf Latios? I'd love any input you might have. I know this has been a rather long and somewhat meandering post, so thanks for reading!

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat NoCheese

Do any of you have other ideas on ways to get maximum value out of Scarf Latios? I'd love any input you might have. I know this has been a rather long and somewhat meandering post, so thanks for reading!

Nice post dude!
I'm not sure what do you mean with the value (sorry I'm German) but a moveset could look like this

Latios
Nature & Item: Modest - ChoiceScarf
Ev's: 252 Sp.Attack & 244 Speed / 196 Speed & 12 HP / 60 HP
Moves: DragonPulse, Psychoshock, IceBeam/EnergyBall, Thunderbolt

This set is for outspeeding ChoiceScarf Terrakion and that set is for outspeeding for ChoiceScarf Garchomp

[Peterko]

Updated the list.

It´s been 9.5 months without Pokémon for me. Wow, time passes by so fast.

Have fun achieving new streaks everyone. Keep up the good work and good luck.

[Jokethe1]

Originally Posted by Fat Peterko

Updated the list.

It´s been 9.5 months without Pokémon for me. Wow, time passes by so fast.

Have fun achieving new streaks everyone. Keep up the good work and good luck.

Thanks Peterko! You've forgotten a "1" Jokethe"1" xD Whatever and thanks again for the update!