Pokémon X and Y Discussion

[Sacaen]

Originally Posted by Fat Basileus

Why would they unbalance the type chart that they worked so hard to balance in the first place? ..

That is implying that the type chart is balanced right now, which it certainly is not.

[Cobraroll]

For all intents and purposes of the core game, it is. It's just that we scrutinize and analyze the game to such a big degree that minuscule flaws appear to us as game-breaking imbalances. Some types end up doing better than others, because balancing a game with seven hundred playable characters divided into seventeen groups is f-ing hard.

There's also the big question of whether the type chart with effectiveness back and forth is unbalanced and should be changed, or if some types are simply screwed over when it comes to usable Pokémon and moves. Not to mention the fact that the types aren't typically meant to use the same play styles. Ghost uses dirty tricks, Rock hits hard and inaccurate, Dark exploits certain conditions on the field to boost (normally rather weak) moves, etc.

[Lord Raiden]

I usually just lurk here, but the two posts above me highlight something about Pokemon (and Smogon) that baffles me, and I have never asked.

Pokemon is rife with balance problems, and it would be a better game if these were fixed, but either nobody notices, or nobody cares for some reason.

I've heard very few people share the same observation; I'm not trying to criticize, but I'm surprised that so many people here are critical of the introduction of new types, especially when they present an opportunity to balance the game.

The main things that I notice are:

- Types are too strong/weak. Water has two weaknesses and lots of resistances, and Water/Ground only has one weakness and even more resistances. Other types, especially Poison, Bug, Psychic, and some others, are in the opposite situation, as they have a lot of weaknesses, very common weaknesses, or have few resistances or advantages over other types (or all of the above, even). I know that not every Pokemon can be an OU staple, but the lack of diversity due to overpowered typings is really staggering in some cases. The movepools for some types are also in need of assistance, with types like Fire getting so many moves that they make themselves redundant, while types like Bug, Ice, Grass, and Poison have comparatively few moves.

- The BST "gaps" between pokemon are ridiculous.

Some have less than 400 for their score, while the greatest scores are around 700. This reduces diversity in competitive play, and confines many people who battle online to a very small set of "viable/usable" Pokemon. I'm not saying that they should all be the same, but I think that online play (and in-game play) would be more interesting and varied if they made the gap smaller "from both directions" (reduce the BST totals for the pokemon with the highest totals and raise the BST totals for the pokemon with the lowest totals) so that the scores would range between 500 and 600 or just raise the BST totals for the lowest-scoring pokemon from ~400 to ~500.

Those two reasons are why I didn't even buy Black or White. I've been playing Pokemon since it came out, and even though I'm in college and I have lots of more important things demanding my attention, I've never missed a Pokemon game (main series only :P).

Black and White not only failed to fix any of the imbalances (which weren't quite as bad in Gen IV), but it exacerbated most of them into proportions that would almost be comical if they weren't so damn frustrating.

I would welcome new types. Sound and Light both make sense, since Light and Sound are both physical components that living things have to negiotiate in order to survive.

If Pokemon X and Y had these, and redid the type affinity chart (for example, Water could be weak to Poison; this would suddenly make Poison a useful typing and "nerf" Water somewhat, and it makes sense. If I dump a barrel of chemical waste into a stream, all the fish would die, because fish and other aquatic life are very sensitive to dissolved toxins), it would help reverse what I see as a trend of stagnation in the Pokemon games.

[Basileus]

Originally Posted by Fat Sacaen

That is implying that the type chart is balanced right now, which it certainly is not.

That is an opinion, It is really hard to balance. A new type would just make it more unbalanced, never said is was already balanced but just that they tried to balance it. They would have to change type compatibility instead of adding more types to balance the meta game. As of now though, the in-game mechanics are actually fairly balanced.

Edit: Sound just sounds completely lame in my opinion, and Light is normally in association with god so it would be either too over powered or underpowered in accordance of what light actually stands for.

[Lord Raiden]

Originally Posted by Fat Basileus

That is an opinion, It is really hard to balance. A new type would just make it more unbalanced, never said is was already balanced but just that they tried to balance it. They would have to change type compatibility instead of adding more types to balance the meta game. As of now though, the in-game mechanics are actually fairly balanced.

Edit: Sound just sounds completely lame in my opinion, and Light is normally in association with god so it would be either too over powered or underpowered in accordance of what light actually stands for.

Read harder.

Light is a physical component of our whole universe.

Light is made of particles called photons, which travel in waves (it's more complicated than that, but I'm not going there). Radio waves, for example, are actually a form of light with a very long wavelength.

X-rays and Ultraviolet light are also lightwaves, but the photons are moving faster and have a lot more kinetic energy, so they can damage things that are exposed to them for too long.

It would be like aiming tennis-ball launchers at a wall of damp sand. Each ball damages the wall just a little bit when it hits at a high speed, and so many tennis balls are hitting the wall that it will be damaged or even destroyed.

The same thing goes for sound. Sound is just kinetic energy traveling through atmosphere. A sonic boom is when a very fast object, such as a fighter jet, passes through its own kinetic energy barrier (created in front of the jet simply by the jet moving) and "rips" through it, making a very fast and powerful wave of kinetic energy that can knock things over and break windows.

Need I remind you that there is already a move called "Sonicboom"? It's a Normal-type move, but it is a sound-based attack.

Supersonic is also a sound-based move that confuses pokemon, similar to how naval submarines can accidentally confuse whales with sonar, which consists of sound waves.

How about Hyper Voice? Do I need to explain that it is also a sound-based move?

The moves already exist. In fact, the type sort of exists already too, it's just not a part of the gameplay. Exploud and all of its lower forms are sound-themed pokemon, Wailord could be argued to be a Water/Sound type, and Crobat and friends could be argued to be Poison/Sound types (whales and bats use sound to navigate the deep ocean and dark caves, respectively). It just doesn't factor into the gameplay, because the type is only a "flavor" or theme for Pokemon to have.

It would be very easy for gamefreak to get this right, and make a Light type in accordance with light as a physical component of nature instead of a religious thing, and to make Sound an actual type.

Seriously, I dare anyone here to try and come up with a rational argument that Light and Sound don't make sense or wouldn't work.

So far all I hear are whiners.

[Infernis]

There is the fact that most Pokemon are capable of making noise. Normal type (and to a lesser extent fighting type) appear to be the two types that involve physically smacking your enemy. Fighting has some supernatural stuff like Aura Sphere and whatnot, but Normal type? Let's look at those moves.

Explosion/Selfdestruct: Goes boom. It should be fire type, arguably, but the implication is that the force of the explosion is what deals damage.

Giga Impact: Hit the enemy really hard with a powerful charge.

Hyper Beam: Honestly, not really sure.

Last Resort: The effect isn't explicitly stated, but it is a contact move. I assume some sort of desperate tackle.

Double-Edge: Tackle so hard it hurts you, too!

Head charge: Headbutt! (Using your rad hair!)

Mega Kick: Kick them.

Thrash: Thrash around.

Egg Bomb: Throw an egg.

Skull Bash: Headbutt!

And then we get to Hyper Voice. You're moving the air so hard that it causes damage. Whether through rupturing eardrums or physically rending and tearing the enemy is unknown, but the theme is the same.

I see Normal-type as an equivalent to D&D 3.5's Force Damage. It isn't charged with any particular type of energy, and is entirely based on kinetics. Basically every normal type attack involves hitting the enemy with some part of a Pokemon's body. Head, claws, feet, entire body, you name it. Vibrations are just more kinetic energy.

Moves that Soundproof brings immunity to:

Bug Buzz: Made by bugs that are buzzing. Golly.
Grasswhistle: Made by... grass whistles. Amazing.
Metal Sound: Made by screeching metal. Wondrous!
Roar of Time: I don't even know the justification here, other than it's coming from a dragon.

Literally all the other ones are normal type.

[Green]

Ledian needs an evolution. They went and gave him Iron Fist as a DW ability, and he has the movepool to abuse it, but his stats are horrible.

[Basileus]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord Raiden

Read harder.

Light is a physical component of our whole universe.

Light is made of particles called photons, which travel in waves (it's more complicated than that, but I'm not going there). Radio waves, for example, are actually a form of light with a very long wavelength.

X-rays and Ultraviolet light are also lightwaves, but the photons are moving faster and have a lot more kinetic energy, so they can damage things that are exposed to them for too long.

It would be like aiming tennis-ball launchers at a wall of damp sand. Each ball damages the wall just a little bit when it hits at a high speed, and so many tennis balls are hitting the wall that it will be damaged or even destroyed.

The same thing goes for sound. Sound is just kinetic energy traveling through atmosphere. A sonic boom is when a very fast object, such as a fighter jet, passes through its own kinetic energy barrier (created in front of the jet simply by the jet moving) and "rips" through it, making a very fast and powerful wave of kinetic energy that can knock things over and break windows.

Need I remind you that there is already a move called "Sonicboom"? It's a Normal-type move, but it is a sound-based attack.

Supersonic is also a sound-based move that confuses pokemon, similar to how naval submarines can accidentally confuse whales with sonar, which consists of sound waves.

How about Hyper Voice? Do I need to explain that it is also a sound-based move?

The moves already exist. In fact, the type sort of exists already too, it's just not a part of the gameplay. Exploud and all of its lower forms are sound-themed pokemon, Wailord could be argued to be a Water/Sound type, and Crobat and friends could be argued to be Poison/Sound types (whales and bats use sound to navigate the deep ocean and dark caves, respectively). It just doesn't factor into the gameplay, because the type is only a "flavor" or theme for Pokemon to have.

It would be very easy for gamefreak to get this right, and make a Light type in accordance with light as a physical component of nature instead of a religious thing, and to make Sound an actual type.

Seriously, I dare anyone here to try and come up with a rational argument that Light and Sound don't make sense or wouldn't work.

So far all I hear are whiners.

TL;DR

Please summarize your argument because I am lazy and tired,thanks.

[Ingo]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord Raiden

Read harder.

Light is a physical component of our whole universe.

Light is made of particles called photons, which travel in waves (it's more complicated than that, but I'm not going there). Radio waves, for example, are actually a form of light with a very long wavelength.

X-rays and Ultraviolet light are also lightwaves, but the photons are moving faster and have a lot more kinetic energy, so they can damage things that are exposed to them for too long.

It would be like aiming tennis-ball launchers at a wall of damp sand. Each ball damages the wall just a little bit when it hits at a high speed, and so many tennis balls are hitting the wall that it will be damaged or even destroyed.

The same thing goes for sound. Sound is just kinetic energy traveling through atmosphere. A sonic boom is when a very fast object, such as a fighter jet, passes through its own kinetic energy barrier (created in front of the jet simply by the jet moving) and "rips" through it, making a very fast and powerful wave of kinetic energy that can knock things over and break windows.

Need I remind you that there is already a move called "Sonicboom"? It's a Normal-type move, but it is a sound-based attack.

Supersonic is also a sound-based move that confuses pokemon, similar to how naval submarines can accidentally confuse whales with sonar, which consists of sound waves.

How about Hyper Voice? Do I need to explain that it is also a sound-based move?

The moves already exist. In fact, the type sort of exists already too, it's just not a part of the gameplay. Exploud and all of its lower forms are sound-themed pokemon, Wailord could be argued to be a Water/Sound type, and Crobat and friends could be argued to be Poison/Sound types (whales and bats use sound to navigate the deep ocean and dark caves, respectively). It just doesn't factor into the gameplay, because the type is only a "flavor" or theme for Pokemon to have.

It would be very easy for gamefreak to get this right, and make a Light type in accordance with light as a physical component of nature instead of a religious thing, and to make Sound an actual type.

Seriously, I dare anyone here to try and come up with a rational argument that Light and Sound don't make sense or wouldn't work.

So far all I hear are whiners.

Please close the book on this subject
It's been dead since that first guy said, oh way back IN GEN III

[cantab]

Some types seem stronger than others, but I wouldn't say any are grossly overpowered or excessively weak. Dragon and Steel are strong, the latter defensively only, but I think they're kind of meant to be for flavour reasons. Conversely I figure Bug isn't meant to be all that strong. Poison may be rubbish offensively but it's pretty good defensively, especially as it's one of two types immune to the poison status.

I don't think it would be desirable to give every type moves that are just a respray of every other type either. The variety adds interest.

BST is less important than one might think. OU currently has a range from 700 (Black Kyurem) to 405 (Dugtrio), with the most used Pokemon (Scizor) having "just" 500 BST. The 680-ish BST legendaries are supposed to be overpowered, and at the other end of the scale a fair bit of stuff like fully-evolved early bugs are meant to be relatively weak. Remember that there is more to Pokemon than competitive play.

Light type, if it happens, will be based on fantasy connotations of light rather more than physics. Sonic type makes a lot of sense for moves, but I think it'll be a bit more limited on Pokemon, besides bats, cetaceans, and plain noisy stuff what possibilities are there?

[Magcargo 2]

I hope that old characters like blue and lance appear in this game, though it seems that I am getting my hopes a bit high. Also, I hope that mantine, skarmory, shuckle and all of those joke pokemon (ex. luvdisc) get evolutions.

[Skore]

Originally Posted by Fat Green

Ledian needs an evolution. They went and gave him Iron Fist as a DW ability, and he has the movepool to abuse it, but his stats are horrible.

He does, and by the same token I would LOVE an Ariados evo that made it scarier and more usable.
With Spinarak evolving into Ariados at only lvl 22 it would made great sense for an Ariados evo at level 37-40 with an updated stat spread to shore up its defenses and it's attack.

I also think the Bug Type needs more varied moves on the theme of Leech Life (20 BP is laughable).

Imagine Drain Web: Coats the target in a sticky web, draining 1/16th HP each turn and healing the user for the same amount. The webbed pokemon cannot switch out or Reduces speed by 2 stages. Now all of a sudden a bulky Ariados evo can trap or outspeed and proceed to wear down it's opponent with Drain Web and Toxic, finishing it off with a strong Sucker Punch or STAB Bug Bite (bug type could also use a 90 BP physical move).

Although if my dream were to become true, Ariados would ditch it's poison typing and evolve to Bug/Dark. (And hey! Ledian with his superhero looks could evolve into a Bug/Light type trollololol).

[Preved Medved]

Originally Posted by Fat cantab

. Sonic type makes a lot of sense for moves, but I think it'll be a bit more limited on Pokemon, besides bats, cetaceans, and plain noisy stuff what possibilities are there?

This guy:
http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&rc...42661473,d.eWU

[Ingo]

Originally Posted by Fat Preved Medved

This guy:
http://www.google.com.br/url?sa=t&rc...42661473,d.eWU

Good lord
A claw shot that moves at 100 km/h and momentarily reaches the temperature of the sun?!

This would be an incredible Pokemon, and this move could be its special signature move.

[Dilasc]

The best way I can think of to make an almost surefire dragon counter without adding a new type resistant to it and fire would be an immunity ability.


Dragon Bath - When hit by dragon moves, user takes no effect/damage and gains defense.

And I'd give it to... Altaria? Hear me out! Because Dragon/Flying has the best resistances to wall dragons! It resists Water, Fire, Fight and is immune to ground... and now dragon.

What dragon besides Haxorus and Uber stat dragons can get past this without compromising their coverage?


The other reason why Altaria is... do you really want this vital an ability on say... Dragonite or Salamence? Just switch into an Outrage and be ASSURED a dragon dance. At least with Altaria its stats are still rather low for a dragon.

So Altaria would now shut down Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp, Kingdra and possibly Hydreigon as it resists their common moves. This means they'd be forced to use poor coverage moves like Ice Beam or Stone Edge, which suddenly gives them all 4mss.

I wouldn't give it to a GOOD dragon/flying type, but Altaria could use a buff.

[Infernis]

I could have sworn someone (you?) posted that exact ability just a short while ago.

It'd be an interesting ability, to be sure, but I have no idea how it would work. Angry dragonfire and claws turning into a bath? It's a little hard to picture.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord Raiden

Read harder.

Light is a physical component of our whole universe.

Light is made of particles called photons, which travel in waves (it's more complicated than that, but I'm not going there). Radio waves, for example, are actually a form of light with a very long wavelength.

X-rays and Ultraviolet light are also lightwaves, but the photons are moving faster and have a lot more kinetic energy, so they can damage things that are exposed to them for too long.

It would be like aiming tennis-ball launchers at a wall of damp sand. Each ball damages the wall just a little bit when it hits at a high speed, and so many tennis balls are hitting the wall that it will be damaged or even destroyed.

The same thing goes for sound. Sound is just kinetic energy traveling through atmosphere. A sonic boom is when a very fast object, such as a fighter jet, passes through its own kinetic energy barrier (created in front of the jet simply by the jet moving) and "rips" through it, making a very fast and powerful wave of kinetic energy that can knock things over and break windows.

Need I remind you that there is already a move called "Sonicboom"? It's a Normal-type move, but it is a sound-based attack.

Supersonic is also a sound-based move that confuses pokemon, similar to how naval submarines can accidentally confuse whales with sonar, which consists of sound waves.

How about Hyper Voice? Do I need to explain that it is also a sound-based move?

The moves already exist. In fact, the type sort of exists already too, it's just not a part of the gameplay. Exploud and all of its lower forms are sound-themed pokemon, Wailord could be argued to be a Water/Sound type, and Crobat and friends could be argued to be Poison/Sound types (whales and bats use sound to navigate the deep ocean and dark caves, respectively). It just doesn't factor into the gameplay, because the type is only a "flavor" or theme for Pokemon to have.

It would be very easy for gamefreak to get this right, and make a Light type in accordance with light as a physical component of nature instead of a religious thing, and to make Sound an actual type.

Seriously, I dare anyone here to try and come up with a rational argument that Light and Sound don't make sense or wouldn't work.

So far all I hear are whiners.

Cause they already exist in some way as you said and as everyone know.

[Dilasc]

Originally Posted by Fat Infernis

I could have sworn someone (you?) posted that exact ability just a short while ago.

It'd be an interesting ability, to be sure, but I have no idea how it would work. Angry dragonfire and claws turning into a bath? It's a little hard to picture.

More like bathing in the draconic energies... I can't really think of a better name, its function is more important than its flair.

[Dia]

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

I hope that old characters like blue and lance appear in this game, though it seems that I am getting my hopes a bit high. Also, I hope that mantine, skarmory, shuckle and all of those joke pokemon (ex. luvdisc) get evolutions.

I officially nominate N for champion.

[cantab]

I think it'll be about time that the player gets to fill the role of Champion. Have it so that when you visit the Pokemon League you're faced with semi-random challengers, in the same vein as Battle facility opponents. Or you could even have strong trainers find and challenge you when you're in the late game dungeons.

[Dilasc]

How about gyms NOT based on type.

Could we have a sun gym leading with Drought Vulpix? Or a gym based on sleep or a trapping gym that has a Perish Singer that U-Turns directly into one of the leader's 3 Wobbuffets... which she'll frenzically use Potions on... X&Y: the gen you cannot Nuzlocke!

[shockwave527]

Originally Posted by Fat cantab

I think it'll be about time that the player gets to fill the role of Champion. Have it so that when you visit the Pokemon League you're faced with semi-random challengers, in the same vein as Battle facility opponents. Or you could even have strong trainers find and challenge you when you're in the late game dungeons.

Can we PLEASE try and stay away from old topics that have already been discussed and fought over? Light type as well. We already discussed about not actually becoming the champion. Lets not bring old Gnus back from the dead.

Originally Posted by Fat Dilasc

How about gyms NOT based on type.

Could we have a sun gym leading with Drought Vulpix? Or a gym based on sleep or a trapping gym that has a Perish Singer that U-Turns directly into one of the leader's 3 Wobbuffets... which she'll frenzically use Potions on... X&Y: the gen you cannot Nuzlocke!

Like this, this is good. Although I like the gyms how they are (and really want a dark gym), I think this could be cool and is an actually NEW suggestion. Maybe something more battle-frontier style though, not for the gyms but as an after game and maybe things that show off a specific stat. Strategy badge/symbol, speed badge/symbol, power badge/symbol...

[Magcargo 2]

Pokemon like swampert, metagross and dusknoir need huge buffs in this gen. Maybe changing their type will help that. Also, there will probably be a bug gym because of that giant spider web shown.

[Lord Raiden]

Originally Posted by Fat Ingo

Good lord
A claw shot that moves at 100 km/h and momentarily reaches the temperature of the sun?!

This would be an incredible Pokemon, and this move could be its special signature move.

Someone beat me to it, but the Pistol shrimp is probably the best example.

"Sonic Shot"
Special
BP 60-80?
Chance of flinch (20% ?)


Also:

Animals

Katydids
Grasshoppers
Dolphins
Cockroaches
Frogs (the water/ground frog/toad pokemon in Gen V is covered in eardrums, basically)
Lizards (some of them)
Deep Sea Animals (some use sound to communicate in the dark)
Cave animals (see above. cave-dwelling opilionids/amblypygids would work especially well)

The number of possible concepts is really only limited by the creativity of the people who make up pokemon.

You could also do something non-organic and make one that's Steel/Sound and based on Metal music.

I still don't have any good arguments against my post about Light and Sound being types.

I just have lazy responses from people who don't seem to know much about basic physics or biology.

If someone can post a really good argument against my ideas, I'll drop it, but I haven't seen much effort.

[inanimate blob]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord Raiden

You could also do something non-organic and make one that's Steel/Sound and based on Metal music.

It'd need the ability Heavy Metal, too.

Why can't this exist already. Perhaps a future CAP? :3