NU Stats - January 2013

[Shuckleking87]

Musharna could be a possibility, as very few pokes can reliably OHKO supereffectively and 2HKO non-supereffectively. Plus it can be a guessing game between signal beam/hp ground/ heal bell, which can be annoying to determine. Its real slow and can be slowed down by sheer offense. Sawk is perfectly fine, plus, there would be almost no fighting types in the tier (gurdurr, throh, scraggy). Sawk can be pretty easily revenged killed.

[Joim]

Originally Posted by Fat Punchshroom

It took me this long to realize but...

| 144 | Amoonguss | 0.81458% | 1330 | 1.042% | 1131 | 1.083% |

What? Did Showdown's NU selection, like, not update during that period?

That might mean that stats took the last day or two days with Amoonguss and could be used and it's thus appearing on Jan stats.

[Aasgier]

Zweilous is the only Pokémon in NU which has a chance to OHKO Musharna with Hustle Choice Band Crunch.
If a 2HKO is sufficient, many things will do. I tried to make a list, but it is pretty long especially on the physical side, as long as you run a powerful SE move. There are about of fifteen different physical attackers that can 2HKO Musharna, but they all need to run a specific move (and generally an offensive item as well) to do so.
There are only two physical attacks which are not hitting for SE damage but still 2HKO Musharna in NU: These are Pikachu's Volt Tackle and Rampardos' Head Smash.

The list of special attacks that can 2HKO Musharna is much shorter, and this list generally consists of the most powerful special attacks residing in NU, like Pikachu's Thunder or Specs Ampharos' Signal Beam.

Edit: Only to get 6-0 sweeped by a Musharna which had Barrier.

[Starships]

Originally Posted by Fat Aasgier

There are about of fifteen different physical attackers that can 2HKO Musharna, but they all need to run a specific move (and generally an offensive item as well) to do so.
There are only two physical attacks which are not hitting for SE damage but still 2HKO Musharna in NU: These are Pikachu's Volt Tackle and Rampardos' Head Smash.

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 301-355 (69.51 - 81.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 252-297 (58.19 - 68.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's not really an offensive item, and it's also not a specific move - it's something they carry on -every- set, and finding a free switch in to activate the orb isn't that hard.

Also needing to run an offensive item isn't really an issue, there's lots of mons that can mostly be taken down by running an offensive item, being CB/Specs/LO. Without a Super Effective attack it's harder to take down something like defensive Torkoal too, without wearing it down or using SR - sure it doesn't have recovery but you're making it seem like a rare thing for a mon that's hard to 2HKO (on the physical side) without a super effective attack or item to boost attack power. Tangela, Alomomola, etc. There's more than just Mushy and the fact that you're mentioning the whole super effective thing just isn't really a major point, because Signal Beam/Megahorn/X-Scissor/Sucker Punch/Crunch/Shadow Ball/Shadow Punch/Foul Play/Pursuit are spread across some of the more common mons in at least, or around, the top 20 in the stats.

Also after SR there's more mons (or at least one) that have a chance to OHKO Mushy (and many others are put closer into the definite 2HKO range):

252+ SpA Choice Specs Camerupt Eruption vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 363-427 (83.83 - 98.61%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also since you mention the offensive item point, keep in mind that even stall/more balance-y teams that can take it down/wear it down with phazing + hazards, toxic, etc.

I'm not saying it's easy to take it down (it can be a challenge if played really well) but the point of mentioning needing an offensive item and super effective attacks point seemed strange because in general it can be taken down for both types of teams, offensive and stall, and that many more mons in NU can't easily be taken down without a super effective attack. ;(

[Aasgier]

Oh wait, I forgot about the fact the Facade's of Zangoose and Ursaring being more powerful as their coverage moves (Night Slash and Crunch, respectively) against Musharna as both their Night Slash and Crunch respectively safely 2HKO Musharna as well - so I disregarded their STABs. Lol.

And with specific move, in the list are more attacks which are on every set of said Pokémon, like things with a STAB X-Scissor (Armaldo, Pinsir and Leavanny) or Shadow Claw (Banette).
But even then, you still need to carry that attack and in some cases, Musharna actually OHKO's back with the right move (especially if it did set up a CM already).

Oh, and many SE attacks don't 2HKO Musharna. I did not came further than about fifteen physical attacks after checking the most powerful attacks of the tier, and 4 attacks which are not SE (of which 2 users overlap). I might have forgotten a few, though.
On the special side, it are similar numbers but again you need the most powerful attacks and again, those aren't always on every set, (and it is not like Musharna does not have the bulk to safely set up a Calm Mind if it gets a free switch-in, and proceeds to boost).

Torkoal, Alomomola and Tangela fall much easier as Musharna because they have a relatively low SDef which you can abuse, which can't be said against Musharna which has decent special bulk as well.

[Constantinipple]

lol, Aasgier and your Leavanny XD

there are numerous (and better) ways to cripple Musharna, and i dont think the solution is attacking. Taunt, Trick, Toxic for non heal bell variants, and possibly even destiny bond if your paranoid are all viable options instead of trying to attack her to death. Misdreavus and Rotom are both great pokemon who can cripple musharna whilst still benefitting the team.

[Punchshroom]

The problem I find in terms of dealing with Musharna is the overall lack of pokemon that can effectively deal with it. Mind you, I don't find Musharna that hard to deal with, but seeing the same old monotonous Mushy counters on every team can get pretty dull after a while, damn skunks.

Bug-, Dark- and Ghost-types do the most damage to Musharna. Let's look at that. First, Bug-types swarm NU, reaching nearly 2 dozens, but they are either too SR weak and/or don't hit hard to begin with. Since Mushy commonly boosts its Special Defense, the most effective Bug-types to deal with Mushy are Pinsir, Leavanny (I swear, Aasgier XD), and Armaldo without the aid of boosting, though they by no means shouldn't. Quiver Dance Bugs can also work, but needs SR off the field if they don't want to be overwhelmed.

Ghost-types are few and far between in NU, and the only viable ones are Golurk, Misdreavus and Drifblim. The more common Acroblimp usually runs no Ghost moves, so it has little chance of taking out Musharna unless it times its Destiny Bond just right. Both Misdreavus and Drifblim can engage in CM wars, though these are less common than their standard sets, NP Misdreavus even more so. Golurk is really the only one who can severely damage Mushy without setting up with Iron Fist Shadow Punch, but those who lack the move may also struggle with the psychic fetus, not to mention it doesn't like boosted Psychics.

That said, Dark-types are the most effective way to dispatch Musharna, as they are immune to Musharna's strongest moves in Psychic or Stored Power. NU's Dark-types consist of: Skuntank, Liepard, Murkrow, Sneasel, Shiftry, Cacturne, Zweilous, Scraggy, Mightyena. Hey, that's a lot of Dark-types, surely Musharna can be contained easily right? Usually, if Mushy doesn't run a coverage move. The problem usually lies in Mushy Calm Minding and then striking, or outright hit the switch-in. Let's assess which of the 8 can deal with this. Cacturne and Shiftry cannot finish off a weakened Mushy with Sucker Punch as it will fail against Heal Bell, forcing them to target it with weaker moves. They are also slaughtered by Signal Beam, switch-in or not. Sneasel fares slightly better if it can catch a +1/+1 Mushy with Punishment, but even this can fail to KO a healthy Musharna who can KO with Signal Beam. Mightyena is in the same boat, but trades Punishment for Moxie (and Sucker Punch). However, Mightyena isn't strong enough off the bat unless it has the Moxie boost....which it usually gets by KOing a Dark-weak pokemon...yeah, you can kinda see the problem here. Murkrow usually can't do a thing back to Musharna (and hopefully vice versa), while Scraggy usually boosts exclusively on Mushy, as everything else in the tier can either hit it hard, outspeed it before several boosts, or wall it, which isn't ideal if you're trying to deal with one pokemon. That leaves Skuntank, Liepard and Zweilous. Skuntank is your most reliable bet, with Taunt, Pursuit, Sucker Punch and usable bulk to keep Mushy in check. However, this 3-move combo still isn't fullproof. I have heard several cases where Musharnas have escaped or even defeated the Skunk (perhaps involving T-Wave, Barrier, Baton Pas, or Hidden Power Ground) due to the Skunk user being outplayed. I didn't categorise Liepard into the "frail Dark-types that get KOed by Signal Beam) because Encore can stop Musharna from hitting you, should you switch in on anything else. T-Wave Liepards are pretty helpless against Mushy though, with T-Wave even backfiring against Synchronize, and if Musharna switches in on you we still have a problem. Zweilous is the only NU poke capable of performing the nigh impossible task of OHKOing Musharna turn 1 with CB Crunch, but the below average defenses, speed and accuracy is a turn off for most players.

A notable trend is that all super-effective moves against Musharna do not surpass 80 base power (no NU poke has STAB Megahorn), and is partly what makes Musharna the dominant force it is today. Heal Bell also crushes many players' hopes of stalling Mushy with status (Trick can work, but there's no second chance if the Mushy player predicts that). Despite all this, I still don't think Mushy is broken, just pretty annoying to bring down. Musharna shouldn't be moving up (it deals with Sawk like no other). If anything, Mandibuzz or Scoilpede (or to an extent Primeape) should get down here and silence (y)our Musharna troubles for good.

[MarshallLeRoy]

I've been experimenting Punchshroom with a Moxie Mightyena set, and find that Howl is actually a really great option. My set is Crunch/SP/Howl/Return, using Mightyena as a hard stop to most Psychics (barring a ballsy Focus Blast). Grabbing a Howl as their Psychic switches out can suddenly put a lot of pressure on opposing teams.

The major drawbacks of the set include Mightyena's hatred of all status, lack of a secondary typing, and no pursuit to trap. Once Sawk is gone or weakened Mightyena can be a useful cleaner, but unless he gets a boost in Skuntank is leaps and bounds better.

Also in reference to the stats, nice to see Pinsir gaining popularity. Scarf sets are great to clean up teams and put pressure on Psychics, but a lot of times he just feels like an inferior Sawk. Haunter is a cold stop to Pinsir unless you want to lock yourself into Stone Edge/Rock Slide, and Sawk can actually take care of Haunter with a Mould Breaker Earthquake. I'm tempted to try the Swords Dance set but Pinsir's speed and lack of overall bulk just makes me feel as if it's outclassed.

[kniteowl]

Originally Posted by Fat MarshallLeRoy

Also in reference to the stats, nice to see Pinsir gaining popularity. Scarf sets are great to clean up teams and put pressure on Psychics, but a lot of times he just feels like an inferior Sawk. Haunter is a cold stop to Pinsir unless you want to lock yourself into Stone Edge/Rock Slide, and Sawk can actually take care of Haunter with a Mould Breaker Earthquake. I'm tempted to try the Swords Dance set but Pinsir's speed and lack of overall bulk just makes me feel as if it's outclassed.

I'm pretty sure Pinsir also learns Earthquake and gets the mold breaker ability as well too, but Moldbreaker on Pinsir is considered the lesser ability compared to Moxie. I guess people could run Moldbreaker for the surprise factor.

[Ewil]

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

I'm pretty sure Pinsir also learns Earthquake and gets the mold breaker ability as well too, but Moldbreaker on Pinsir is considered the lesser ability compared to Moxie. I guess people could run Moldbreaker for the surprise factor.

Sadly there is no surprise factor since there is a message that alerts your opponent when a Mold Breaker Pokémon enters the battle field.
The only surprise factor is that you preserve Pinsir for late game and your opponent preserve an Haunter for him thinking that is a Moxie one.