Tangrowth (QC 2/3)

[Swamp-Rocket]

I am so slow at putting Skeletons up nowadays D: To be fair I am really busy and this is low priority, but still...

[Overview]

<p>Tangrowth has often been uncommon in BW OU mainly due to Ferrothorn, and now that Amoonguss has gotten Regenerator, Tangrowth is more overlooked than ever. However, what Tangrowth does have is a great physical defense comparable to titans such as Hippowdon, and when combined with Regenerator, Leech Seed, and a STAB Giga Drain, it can switch into physical attacks fairly easily and retaliate before switching out repeatedly. Tangrowth also has a surprisingly high attack and special attack for a wall, meaning that it can its opposition while it takes their hits. It isn't all good for Tangrowth, however, as it has a rather unimpressive special bulk that disallows it from taking moves such as rain boosted Hydro Pumps, and it in general performs poorly against Rain, Sun, and to a lesser extent, Hail, which is a large issue in a weather-centric metagame. It's typing also gives it some unwanted weaknesses, such as Fire, making it vulnerable to Fire Blasts from physically attacking Dragons. Despite this, Tangrowth's ability to take on most physical attackers with impunity should not be overlooked.</p>

[SET]
name: Physically Defensive
move 1: Sleep Powder
move 2: Giga Drain / Power Whip
move 3: Leech Seed
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
ability: Regenerator
nature: Bold / Relaxed
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

• Takes physical hits forever
• While it may look outclassed by Amoonguss, it has a much higher physical bulk that allows it to take neutral hits with ease, such as Outrages, that Amoonguss may not be able to take, and it has better offensive stats in order to retaliate and defeat Pokemon in comes across.
• The two actually play completely differently, as Tangrowth works as a way to scout out for powerful physical hits, and attempt to counter them if they try and set up.
• Sleep powder is nice to incapacitate a Pokemon for a while
• Giga Drain allows Tangrowth to recover HP and deal damage. Its often better also because Scald
• Due to the recover Tangrowth already gets, Power Whip is a much stronger option that allows it to play like a tank
• Leech Seed is something Amoonguss lacks, and it allows even more recovery
• Hidden Power Ice wrecks Dragon-types such as Dragonite.
• Hidden Power Fire wrecks Scizor, Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Stun Spore could be used, but from there it really becomes a "why not use Amoonguss" sort of thing
• Earthquake helps it deal with Pokemon such as Heatran and Jirachi better, though note these are often Special Attackers.
• Focus Blast is inaccurate and meh but it beats the crap out of Ferrothorn even in the rain, and some steels too, as well as Kyurem sorta
• Speed EVs (84 for Jellicient, and 124 Spe for Scizor and non-sassy Tyranitar) can be used if you want to outspeed them and hit them hard with its STAB or HP Fire
• Heatran is an excellent partner, as Heatran can spread burns to let Tangrowth wall even easier and they cover each others weaknesses. It also kills Steel-types and deals with Sun teams nicely as well as Hail teams while Tangrowth takes Ground-type hits like nothing (seriously this thing is a nice partner)
• The uncommon but annoying Toxic Spikes is not what Tangrowth likes, and it doesn't fare well against other entry hazards either because Regenerator is its only form of recovery. Tentacruel and Starmie are good partnesr, as they has Rapid Spin and also takes Fire- and Ice-type hits well.
• Special Walls are nice partners because Tangrowth will have to switch out against them due to a bad special defense (and it activates Regenerator) Jellicient is a good partner due to this, as it takes on Fire-type mons pretty well. Also, Spinblocking is a nice plus since opponents hae to switch out in order to get the correct response to Pokemon like this, making entry hazards generally useful anyway.

[SET]
name: Chlorophyll Sweeper
move 1: Growth
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire / Sleep Powder
item: Life Orb
ability: Cholrophyll
nature: Naughty
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe



[SET COMMENTS]

• Rather than take hits, this Tangrowth dishes them out
• While it is slower than most of the Chlorophyll users in the tier, its advantage is that is is more powerful than most of them, and is one of the few that can go phyiscal.
• Though it may seem a bit outclassed by Victreebel, its access to Earthquake allows it to get past Heatran, and it isn't that vulnerable to priority thanks to its still insane physical defense. As for Venusaur, a higher attack and Power Whip allows it to go physical, unlike Venusaur.
• Growth is the sun-sweepers set up move of choice, as it doubles Attack and Special Attack under the sun
• Power Whip, though inaccurate, is very strong
• Earthquake it allows it to defeat Heatran and other Fire-types with ease (unless they have a balloon, of course)
• Hidden Power Ice gets past Dragon-type Pokemon such as Salamence and Latios, but Hidden Power Fire gets past the numberous Steel-types that don't take much damage from Earthquake. Both options also hit Grass-types hard.
• If coverage isn't the issue, Tangrowth has Sleep Powder to incapacitate a Pokemon that it cannot potentially deal with and then get a boost, though Grass/Ground's coverage isn't that great by itself.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Naughty should be used over Lonely because of priority moves being on the physical side and Vaccuum Wave being garbage
• Ninetales duh
• Scarfed Fire-types such as Darmanitan, Infernape, and Victini can be a real revenge killer for the team to make up for the lack of speed Tangrowth has. They also all benefit from the sun.
• Hail teams are huge threats because Abomasnow and friends threaten this guy. Consider Heatran, who also benefits from the sun and Tangrowth's ability to take down Ground-types and it also defeats faster Chlorophyllers.
• Scarf Terrakion is a fine partner - it can take on Fire-types that may have a Choice Scarf (and outspeed Tangrowth) while Tangrowth deals with a lot of its checks (Azumarill, Gliscor/Lando-T with HP Ice, Slowbro, etc.)
• Without Hidden Power Ice, Dragon-types, especially Dragonite and Salamence, have an easy time against this set. Mamoswine can hit both of them very hard with Ice Shard.

[Other Options]

• Leaf Storm
• Synthesis
• Toxic
• Swords Dance
• Rock Slide
• Growth with only Special Moves, Sun or no sun (Tabgrowth can outspeed 0 Spe Scizor with investments.)
• Nature Power
• Knock Off

[Checks and Counters]

• Switches out a lot so can be hard to eliminate
• Latias and Latios take it on easy, even with HP Ice
• In cruel irony, Amoonguss
• Most other Grass-types too such as Virizion and Venusaur
• Heatran, though watch for Earthquake
• Really any Fire type just roasts it
• Dragonite or Salamence as long as HP Ice doesn't make it
• Either Kyurem form, though careful about Focus Blast
• Politoed can slow down the chlorophyll variants and Ice Beam it, though it can't switch in
• If Tangrowth lacks HP Fire and Earthquake, almost all Steel-types wall it, and Special Attacking ones such as Jirachi and Magnezone can take it down fairly easily with STAB special moves due to its mediocre special bulk.

[Hemp Man]

Heatran makes for a good partner, they basically cover each others weaknesses outside of Fighting.

[Swamp-Rocket]

The skeleton is complete - there are probably more partners out there, but I got all that I could think of.

[Redless]

A quick nitpick, slash Swords Dance with growth on the Chlorophyll sweeper set; while most of the time Growth is better, if Sleep Powder is the fourth move, Growth is obviously outclassed as SD can set up outside of the sun as well.

[The Agonist]

Tangrowth gets Synthesis but needs to give up Regen for it.

Synthesis is a BW2 tutor, so it's legal with Regenerator.

[Cherub Agent]

Two things: there's no reason not to use nature power over earthquake on the growth set, as it ignores sucker punch and has more pp.

Then there's the fact that synthesis is legal with regenerator, as its a bw2 tutor move

[tehy]

So why not even a mention of HP fire? With HP Fire, a good few dragons take you down, but with HP ice, a good few steels take you down instead. You've got your Latis that don't care about ice and your rain-steels and rachis that don't care about fire, but it still beats down 'zor and Ferro while still hitting opposing Grass-types. Yes rain we've heard it all before but it still deserves at the very least a mention (On the Defensive set, I mean)

[Swamp-Rocket]

Gah. I didn't realize that synthesis was a tutor move, sorry about that. I'll fix that

There honestly isn't much of a reason to use HP Fire on the defensive set IMO due to Focus Blast and rain being pretty common. Even against neutral targets Focus blast is stronger in rain.


Nature Power is actually affected by Taunt because its a status move which is horrible outside of the rain. Sucker Punch is fairly uncommon in OU (Toxicroak hates the sun a lot). I'll put it in depending on what QC thinks should be the primary quake.

[Neliel]

I would slash earthquake on the phisical def. set to hit better heatran and calm mind jirachi, maybe instead of focus blast that never did anything to me :0

Fastgrowht should be mentioned i think, i used it with hidden power fire and enoguh speed to outspeed scizor/skarmory other stuff, it is usefull to stop volturn cores of rotom-w+scizor. Its also a considerable reason to use it over amonguuss

[Asterat]

Leech seed and sleep powder are not both always necessary. Slash some more stuff after them, like knock off or earthquake.
-Sleep Powder/Leech Seed
-Power Whip/Giga Drain
-Hidden Power Ice/Fire
-Earthquake/Leech Seed

Also chlorophyll sweeper is totally outclassed.

[papai noel]

"Physical bulk that is comparable to titans such as Hippowdon."

Isn't Tangrowth bulkier on the physical side? I don't know, but the way it's written seems that Tangrowth is almost as bulky as Hippowdon, which is not true. I also think HP Fire and Earthquake deserve an AC mention on the physically defensive set, as the former lets you KO Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress while the latter hits Heatran and Jirachi.

EDIT: Tangrowth is bulkier than Hippowdon, so its physical bulk is not comparable, it's better.

[Unowninator]

Originally Posted by Fat Redless

A quick nitpick, slash Swords Dance with growth on the Chlorophyll sweeper set; while most of the time Growth is better, if Sleep Powder is the fourth move, Growth is obviously outclassed as SD can set up outside of the sun as well.

That may be true, but if you use Swords Dance instead of Growth, they'll know you have no Special moves, and can switch in something like Skarmory knowing you can't hurt it (if you already put something to sleep that is).

Originally Posted by Fat Cherub Agent

Two things: there's no reason not to use nature power over earthquake on the growth set, as it ignores sucker punch and has more pp.

I just want to point out that Taunt prevents the use of Nature Power.

[The Agonist]

Originally Posted by Fat papai noel

"Physical bulk that is comparable to titans such as Hippowdon."

Isn't Tangrowth bulkier on the physical side? I don't know, but the way it's written seems that Tangrowth is almost as bulky as Hippowdon, which is not true. I also think HP Fire and Earthquake deserve an AC mention on the physically defensive set, as the former lets you KO Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Forretress while the latter hits Heatran and Jirachi.

Hippowdon has 108/112/118/68/72/47 stats, while Tangrowth has 100/100/125/110/50/50. So Hippowdon is a bit bulkier than Tangrowth physically, while obviously being much bulkier on the special side.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Originally Posted by Fat Neliel

I would slash earthquake on the phisical def. set to hit better heatran and calm mind jirachi, maybe instead of focus blast that never did anything to me :0

Fastgrowht should be mentioned i think, i used it with hidden power fire and enoguh speed to outspeed scizor/skarmory other stuff, it is usefull to stop volturn cores of rotom-w+scizor. Its also a considerable reason to use it over amonguuss

I ACed Earthquake in the set and OOed the Growth bit (which is Growth with speed evs correct me if Im wrong) Personally I prefer Focus Blast because Tangrowth has a shot at beating Ferrothorn and Heatran/CM Jurachi hit it very hard already, not to mention Balloontran being a general jerk. Since you need to predict the switch I'd prefer Leech Seeding Jirachi tbh


On the Hippo bit some people mentioned... Inferior, superior, or whatever, comparable = approximately, and they honestly do have pretty much identical physical bulks. I think comparable is the best word there only because I can't really think of a suitable substitution

[ginganinja]

Can we have HP Fire slashed with HP Ice on defensive Tangrowth please. Its really nice for hitting both Scizor and Ferrothorn, as well as doing respectable damage to Skarmory, Forretress etc etc.

Also Focus Blast might be better off moving to AC, for starters, Tangrowth can hit Tyranitar pretty hard with Power Whip, (or spam Leech Seed and stuff) and Focus Blast isn't going to worry Sub CM Jirachi. In addition, Focus Blast has really bad accuracy although ill grant you the fact that its nice to hit Ferrothorn under Rain. Personally however, id rather use EQ over Focus Blast to better beat Sub CM Jirachi and to do more to Heatran (which a fair number of specially defensive. I guess Focus Blast is up for more discussion however, I just personally feel EQ as more viable provided you have Ferrothorn checked.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Can we have HP Fire slashed with HP Ice on defensive Tangrowth please. Its really nice for hitting both Scizor and Ferrothorn, as well as doing respectable damage to Skarmory, Forretress etc etc.

Also Focus Blast might be better off moving to AC, for starters, Tangrowth can hit Tyranitar pretty hard with Power Whip, (or spam Leech Seed and stuff) and Focus Blast isn't going to worry Sub CM Jirachi. In addition, Focus Blast has really bad accuracy although ill grant you the fact that its nice to hit Ferrothorn under Rain. Personally however, id rather use EQ over Focus Blast to better beat Sub CM Jirachi and to do more to Heatran (which a fair number of specially defensive. I guess Focus Blast is up for more discussion however, I just personally feel EQ as more viable provided you have Ferrothorn checked.

Done and done.

[Princess Bri]

Does Tangrowth even need a revamp. BW2 just made it worse.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

Does Tangrowth even need a revamp. BW2 just made it worse.

I honestly think it does due to 2 reasons

1. Regenerator Amoonguss gives it a major chunk of competition and in many ways Amoognuss is better. It needs to be updated to point out what it has over Amoonguss, because that thing is the first thing people think of "regenerating grass-type."
2. The current Analysis is a bit too generous to it imo, and doesn't reflect that it is fairly average/mediocre since it was written in its heyday. It literally doesn't point out one flaw in the overview, for example. It's a fairly old analysis and it needs to be updated to generally reflect what has changed, generally regarding rain being not as easy to wall as before.

[PK Gaming]

So I discussed Tangrowth with ginganinja on IRC, and we decided to let Swamp-Rocket write the Tangrowth revamp as planned.

The original analysis is basically relic of a different time period. There's emphasis on threats that aren't seen anymore(Haxorus), and little-to-no emphasis on Tangrowths weaknesses (vulnerability to a lot of top tier threats and team styles lik rain & sun teams). When I read the analysis, I walked away feeling like Tangrowth is a "great" Pokemon that isn't very common, rather than a "niche" that's ok on a few teams. No disrespect to the original writer, because that was the reality back in the day (BW1 was a very different metagame, and Tangrowth was especially effective during that time).

I tried SCMS it, but I couldn't do it without rewriting the entire thing.

[Swamp-Rocket]

This dropped down to the second page so I'm bumping this

[alexwolf]

Overview

• Weak to rain and sun teams

Physically Defensive

Set Comments:

• While it may look outclassed by Amoonguss, it's Raw physical bulk and superior offense makes up for it

  How? Give some example to better inform the reader about Tangrowth's niche.
• Mention that Giga Drain is the superior option because Tangrowth will be switching into defensive Water-types and thus often get burned

Additional Comments:

• Remove Synthesis, it is already mentioned in the OO, where it belongs
• Mention a spread with 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 Spe and a Bold nature to outspeed CB Scizor and SpD Tyranitar, and OHKO the first with HP Fire after 2 SR rounds
• Tangrowth dislikes hazards in general, as they prevent him from taking advantage of Regenerator's healing ability and thus cut its main form of healing. Starmie and Tentacruel are both good Rapid Spinners to use with Tangrowth, and Forretress is ok too but doesn't have any real synergy with Tangrowth

Chlorophyll Sweeper

Additional Comments:

• Mention Choice Scarf Darmanitan, Infernape, or Victini, so that the sun team can make up for the lack of Tangrowth's speed and have a real revenge killer
• I don't think that i have ever seen a team with double Chlorophyll mons, and i don't think it is the best option, so remove it

Checks and Counters

• Every Steel-type if Tangrowth lacks HP Fire or Earthquake, and some Steel-types can even take one of the two coverage moves

After you add those



QC Approved 1/3

[Swamp-Rocket]

Another 2nd Page, so another bump

[yee]

The sets look generally solid, I'd just mention more that the point of Tangrowth is to scout CB'ers and attempt to counter them if they set up (Dragonite / Terrakion etc.) while spreading Status / throwing Knock Off's at defensive teams. It's unfair to say Amoonguss outclasses it everywhere because they're not even used for the same thing. Sure it and Breloom are grass types with a sleep move that are more generally useful but they don't directly compete for roles, the difference between being a special wall and a physical wall creates about as big of a gap as being an offensive or defensive one.

It does bug me a little that the main spread is max defense when the last bunch of EVs would do so much more in SpD tanking little hits throughout a game, which helps it do it's job of spreading residual damage / not dying, but unless someone has more time to waste than me for making a wall of damage calcs I'd leave it as is.

QC Approved 2/3

[Iconic*]

this is being taken over by blazeVA